“I Am” Exodus 3:14/John 8:57,58

[david]

The “I am” argument I consider extraordinarily bizarre, funny, and sad at the same time. I didn’t really think people seriously actually believed this, but some on here keep posting posts that have this argument, so let’s discuss it. (I don’t remember it ever really being discussed)

I will discuss this, but first wanted to put some things down:

EXODUS 3:14

“I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.” Heb., היהא רשא היהא (’Eh·yeh́ ’Asheŕ ’Eh·yeh́)

Leeser, “I WILL BE THAT I WILL BE”;
Rotherham, “I Will Become whatsoever I please.”
Gr., E·gó ei·mi ho on, “I am The Being,” or, “I am The Existing One”;
Lat., égo sum qui sum, “I am Who I am.”
’Eh·yeh́ comes from the Heb. verb ha·yah́, “become; prove to be.” Here ’Eh·yeh́ is in the imperfect state, first person sing., meaning “I shall become”; or, “I shall prove to be.” The reference here is not to God’s self-existence but to what he has in mind to become toward others. Compare Ge 2:4 ftn, “Jehovah,” where the kindred, but different, Heb. verb ha·wah́ appears in the divine name.

The expression “I AM” is there used as a title or a name, and in the Hebrew this expression is the one word Ehyéh (א?ה?י?ה?). Jehovah God was there speaking to Moses and sending him to the children of Israel. Well, then, in John 8:58, was Jesus claiming to be Jehovah God? Not according to many modern Bible translators, as the following quotations will prove:
Moffatt: “I have existed before Abraham was born.”
Schonfield and An American Translation: “I existed before Abraham was born.” Stage (German): “Before Abraham came to be, I was.”
Pfaefflin (German): “Before there was an Abraham, I was already there!”
George M. Lamsa, translating from the Syriac Peshitta, says: “Before Abraham was born, I was.”
Dr. James Murdock, also translating from the Syriac Peshitto Version, says: “Before Abraham existed, I was.”
The Brazilian Sacred Bible published by the Catholic Bible Center of São Paulo says: “Before Abraham existed, I was existing.”—2nd edition, of 1960, Bíblia Sagrada, Editora “AVE MARIA” Ltda.
(w62 10/1 p. 588 par. 18)

Scholars are not in full agreement as to the meaning of God’s name, Jehovah. After extensive research on the subject, however, many believe that the name is a form of the Hebrew verb ha·wah́ (become), meaning “He Causes to Become.”
Hence, in the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, the account at Exodus 3:14, where Moses asked God his name, is translated this way: “At this God said to Moses: ‘I shall prove to be what I shall prove to be.’ And he added: ‘This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, “I shall prove to be has sent me to you.”’”
That rendering is appropriate because God is able to cause himself to become whatever he needs to be. Nothing can stop him from fulfilling whatever role is needed to accomplish his will. His purposes and promises always become reality. Outstandingly, God proved to be the Creator, the one with unlimited ability to make things happen. He caused the physical universe to come into existence. He also created myriads of spirit creatures. Truly, he is a God who makes things happen!
(g04 1/22 p. 9)

According to the King James Version rendering of Exodus 3:13, 14, Moses asked: “When I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.” About this text, The Pentateuch and Haftorahs (Hebrew text with English translation and exposition, edited by Dr. J. H. Hertz) says that in the phrase “I am that I am . . . the emphasis is on the active manifestation of the Divine existence.” Its use as a title or name for God was therefore appropriate because by delivering them from Egyptian bondage, God was about to manifest his existence in behalf of his people in an outstanding way. Hertz says that “most moderns follow Rashi [a renowned medieval French Bible and Talmud commentator] in rendering ‘I will be what I will be.’” This agrees with the rendering of the New World Translation, which reads: “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.”
At John 8:58, once again the King James Version has Jesus using the expression “I am” in connection with himself, saying, “Before Abraham was, I am.” But here the expression is quite different from the one used at Exodus 3:14. Jesus did not use it as a name or title but simply as a means of explaining his prehuman existence. Thus, according to the New World Translation, the more correct rendering of John 8:58 is: “Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”
(w88 7/15 p. 6)

God’s reply in Hebrew was: ’Eh·yeh́ ’Asheŕ ’Eh·yeh́. Some translations render this as “I AM THAT I AM.” However, it is to be noted that the Hebrew verb ha·yah́, from which the word ’Eh·yeh́ is drawn, does not mean simply “be.” Rather, it means “become,” or “prove to be.” The reference here is not to God’s self-existence but to what he has in mind to become toward others. Therefore, the New World Translation properly renders the above Hebrew expression as “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.” Jehovah thereafter added: “This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘I SHALL PROVE TO BE has sent me to you.’”—Ex 3:14, ftn.
That this meant no change in God’s name, but only an additional insight into God’s personality, is seen from his further words: “This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘Jehovah the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name to time indefinite, and this is the memorial of me to generation after generation.” (Ex 3:15; compare Ps 135:13; Ho 12:5.) The name Jehovah comes from the Hebrew verb ha·wah́, “become,” and actually means “He Causes to Become.” This reveals Jehovah as the One who, with progressive action, causes himself to become the Fulfiller of promises. Thus he always brings his purposes to realization. Only the true God could rightly and authentically bear such a name.
(it-2 p. 12)

Many translations use the expression “I Am” both at John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14. But do both texts express the same thought?
No. We know that they do not because at Exodus 3:14 the Greek Septuagint Version (the translation that was often quoted by the apostles in the first century C.E.) reads, e·gó ei·mí ho Ohń, “I am the Being.” This is quite different from the simple use of the words e·gó ei·mí (I am) at John 8:58. The verb ei·mí, at John 8:58, is evidently in the historical present, as Jesus was speaking about himself in relation to Abraham’s past. Numerous translators indicate this in their renderings. For example, An American Translation reads: “I existed before Abraham was born!”
Jesus’ pointing to his prehuman existence should have come as no surprise to the Jews. Centuries earlier, Micah’s prophecy said of the Messiah: “You, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, the one too little to get to be among the thousands of Judah, from you there will come out to me the one who is to become ruler in Israel, whose origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite.” (Mic. 5:2) Thus while Jesus existed long before Abraham, he is not without beginning. Unlike his Father, who is “from time indefinite to time indefinite,” the Son is spoken of as having “origin.”—Ps. 90:2.
The very fact that Jesus is called the “Son of God” reveals that he was
produced by the Father and is, therefore, his firstborn and only-begotten Son. Jesus himself said: “I live because of the Father.” (John 6:57) After having come into existence, the Son was used in creating everything. (John 1:1-3; Col. 1:15-17; Heb. 1:2) As firstborn Son, this one enjoyed a special intimacy with the Father. He is spoken of in Scripture as being “in the bosom position with the Father.”—John 1:18.
So perfectly did Jesus reflect the image—the personality and ways—of his Father that he could say to Philip: “He that has seen me has seen the Father.” (John 14:9) That is why one can come to know God only through the Son. As Jesus put it: “All things have been delivered to me by my Father, and who the Son is no one knows but the Father; and who the Father is, no one knows but the Son, and he to whom the Son is willing to reveal him.”—Luke 10:22.
What a grand oneness exists between Jehovah God and his firstborn Son! They are always “one” in purpose and activity. But, as the Scriptures clearly show, they are not equal. The Son always acknowledges his Father’s superior position, subjecting himself to his Father as his God and delighting in doing his Father’s will. “He that sent me,” said Jesus, “is with me; he did not abandon me to myself, because I always do the things pleasing to him.” (John 8:29; 1 Cor. 11:3) Thus Jesus truly is, not ‘God the Son’ or the “second person” of a triune God, but the “Son of God.”—John 20:31.
(w74 9/1 p. 527)

Anyway, looking at the context, and eliminating any trinitarian or anti-trinitarian thought, it seems Jesus was simply saying that he existed before Abraham.

“I have existed before Abraham was born.”
“I existed before Abraham was born.”
“Before Abraham came to be, I was.”
“Before there was an Abraham, I was already there!”
“Before Abraham was born, I was.”
“Before Abraham existed, I was.”

It seems a stretch to me to try to connect this conversation where Jesus was speaking of his being in existence before Abraham with the expression that Jehovah made.

See:
http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/newworl….les.htm

[TimothyVI]

Thank you for that David. In a bible study group just yesterday, I had one of the other
people use the I AM statement from Jesus as a proof text that He and the Father God were the same.

Tim

[Adam Pastor]

Concerning “I am” …

(John 9:8-9)  The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged? 9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.

The same Greek ego eimi as in John 8.58, etc!

There is absolutely no connection between Exo 3.14 & John 8.58. The simplest proof of this is to look at the Greek of Exo 3.14 in the LXX.

Exo 3:14  And God said unto Moses, ego eimi ho ohn: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, ho ohn hath sent me unto you.

If Jesus was indeed identifying himself with the One in Exo 3.14; John would have recorded him saying …
“Before Abraham, ego eimi ho ohn” OR
“Before Abraham, ho ohn“

Jesus said no such this!
Jesus used the phrase ego eimi to identify himself as the promised Messiah (just as he did in 4.26,8:24,28)
In like manner, the man who was healed uses the same phrase to identify himself as the one who was blind.
ego eimi is equivalent to It's me!

In John 8:58, Jesus is stating that 'Before Abraham', GOD had foreordained Jesus to be the Messiah.

Quote

I will tackle one more area your “authority” raises as proof of the conscious preexistence of Jesus — John 8:58. To start with, it is important to notice that Jesus did not use the phrase revealing God's name to Moses from Exodus 3. At the burning bush God declared His name as “I am who I am,” “I am the Self-existent One.” The Greek phrase in the LXX reads ego eimi ho hown, which is not the title clamed by Jesus. Further, this simple phrase ego eimi  is everywhere else rendered “I am he.” What Jesus had just claimed here was that Messiah’s day was a reality to Abraham through the eyes of faith. But Messiah “existed” as the supreme subject of God’s plan long before the birth of Abraham. “Before Abraham came to be, I am he” is a profound statement about God’s original plan for the world centered in Jesus, whom John can also describe as “crucified before the foundation of the world” (Rev. 13:8). If Jesus was “crucified before Abraham” he himself may be said to have “existed” in the eternal counsels of God, for he was appointed as Savior of the world before the birth of Abraham. Jesus has not ruined the cardinal tenet of Judaism by introducing himself as “coequal God.” Jesus was loyal to his Jewish heritage and its strict monotheism when he declared that the Father “is the only one who is truly God” (John 17:3). Words could not be more decisive. In fact, the majority of the translations since the KJV recognize this as the simple meaning of what Jesus said and meant by supplying in italics the word “he.” “I am he.” This is the correct sense, just as in the next chapter when the blind man is asked whether he is the one who used to sit and beg. He says ego eimi, and it means, “I am he” or “I am the one you are talking about.” Nobody would dare suggest that he too was claiming to be the “I am what I am” of Exodus. Yet that is the very forced understanding your “authority” would have us adopt. To confirm this as the true meaning, have a look at John 4. The woman at the well in verse 25 says to Jesus, “I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called the Christ); when that one comes, he will declare all things to us.” In verse 26, “Jesus said to her, ‘I who speak to you am [then even the KJV supplies in italics the obvious meaning] he’” (i.e., the Messiah, not God!). Really, this is elementary to any “authority,” and to teach otherwise seems quite reprehensible.

The above quote is taken from
http://adonimessiah.blogspot.com/2006….eg.html

[NickHassan]

Hi,
According to some the centurion in Lk 7 should also be another possible candidate for being God.
He also said
“ego eime”

Lk 7
8 For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it .

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 22 2007,19:42)

Hi, According to some the centurion in Lk 7 should also be another possible candidate for being God. He also said “ego eime” Lk 7 8 For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it .

Hey NH,
The difference is there is a predicate in Lk 7:8:

“For I also am a man set under authority“

Yeshua's statement in John 8:58 is unpredicated…..it's a big difference.

[NickHassan]

Hi Is 1.18,
Of course his Father called Himself
“I Am Who Am”
Jesus, the Word, was WITH Him in the beginning.

[Proclaimer]

The angel Gabriel said, “Ego eimi Gabriel.” In John 9:9, the blind man whose sight was restored by Jesus said, “Ego eimi.” In Acts 10:21, Peter said, “Behold, ego eimi (I am) he whom ye seek.”

Obviously, the mere use of “ego eimi” does not equate one to the “I Am” of Exodus 3:14.

E.g.,
Q: Are you t8?
A: I am.

Of course I am not saying I am God.

The preceding sentence has I am” in it twice, so am I secretly saying I am God for those who have eyes to see?

The answer is no.

Have a good day, I know I am.

There I go again.

[david]

Quote

Obviously, the mere use of “ego eimi” does not equate one to the “I Am” of Exodus 3:14. E.g., Q: Are you t8? A: I am. Of course I am not saying I am God. The preceding sentence has I am” in it twice, so am I secretly saying I am God for those who have eyes to see? The answer is no. Have a good day, I know I am.

exactly. AS I said before,

The “I am” argument I consider extraordinarily bizarre, funny, and sad at the same time. I didn’t really think people seriously actually believed this, but some on here keep posting posts that have this argument,
In the thousands of words Jesus said, it would be odd if he didn't utter the words “I am” somewhere. I have probably used those words in answer to a question a thousand times. This is utterly ridiculous to the point of …. [instert your own word].

[Cult Buster]

David

Quote

It seems a stretch to me to try to connect this conversation where Jesus was speaking of his being in existence before Abraham with the expression that Jehovah made.

David. To make it easier for you to grasp, try to focus on the following.

Even the Jews understood that Jesus was claiming to be God; the Almighty God Jehovah that spoke face to face with Moses, Abraham and others, and as a result they engineered his crucifixion.

Exo 3:14  And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM  hath sent me unto you.

Jesus Himself claimed to be the “I AM ” God of the old testament.

John 8:56  Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
John 8:57  Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
John 8:58  Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
John 8:59  Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Jesus did not say Before Abraham was, I was. This is how the JW's twist His words.

He said  “Before Abraham was, I am”

The Jews knew that Jesus was referring to Himself as  ”I AM ”,  the Almighty God, that is why they took up stones to cast at Him. They thought that He was a man claiming to be God.
Thus  clearly the Jews understood that Jesus was Himself claiming to be God.

Here is some more food for thought; the words of Jesus (I AM).  Each of these “I am” statements would have reminded His Jewish listeners of the “I AM” statement by God to Moses in the desert?

John 6:35 I am  the bread of life:

John 6:41 I am the bread which came down from heaven.

John 8:12 I am the light of the world

John 8:23   I am from above:

John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved

Joh 10:11  I am the good shepherd:

John 11:25    I am the resurrection, and the life:

John 14:6  I am the way, the truth, and the life:

Joh 15:1  I am the true vine

Joh 13:13    Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.

John 8:24  …for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Exo 3:14  And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT JESUS IS THE GREAT GOD JEHOVAH. THE GREAT I AM .

[TimothyVI]

Hi CultBuster,

In almost every quote that you have given Jesus is saying that He is everything except
the Great I AM.

He says that He is bread of life, the light of the world, the door, the good shepherd, the resurrection, the truth,
the true vine. He says that He is everything, except the Great I AM.

You also quoted Jhn 8:24, as He talked to the men in the temple.

Jhn 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.

But they still did not know who Jesus was saying that He was, so they asked Him.

Jhn 8:25
Then said they unto him, Who art thou?

And Jesus told them with his own lips.

Jhn 8:28
Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

There you go,  there is what He really said.
Ye shall know that I am the Son of man, and I can not do anything, except what the Father hath taught me.

You could have almost convinced someone who did not know any better with the argument that you gave from from Jhn 8:56-59.
But then you spoiled it with all of the other conjecture.

Good try though.

Tim

[Proclaimer]

Good post TimothyVI.

It's amazing because all you really need to do is read these verses correctly and honestly.

So when we read John 8:24:
…for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. and we say that you will die in your sins, it is not because you do not believe that he is YHWH.,

It is for the reason you pointed out, that he is the Son of man.

How ironic. Cult Buster says that it was Christ saying he was the I AM of Exodus, but a simple read of the text proves that is not the case.

To add to this I give the following:

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.”

1 John 3:23
And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

John 6:40
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.”

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

So the argument that we are to believe that Jesus is the I AM of Exodus is absurd on all counts.

First off Jesus never said he was I AM, he said that he was the son of man, the son of God, and the messiah. He also said that before Abraham, that he existed.

Scripture shows us this clearly and the Trinity doctrine once again tries to rob us of the fact that Jesus is God's son and messiah.

This is what we are to believe. To believe that Jesus is the Messiah and son of God was the reason for the Book of John.

John 20:31
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

[Cult Buster]

Timothy V1

Quote

Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

This verse in in the context of the incarnation.
When Christ was to leave heaven and was to take the form of a man He did not cease to be God. He tempoararily laid  aside His own divine power and was dependent on God for power. This makes Him our example to follow because we too are to depend totally on God.

Heb 2:14  Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Quote

In almost every quote that you have given Jesus is saying that He is everything except the Great I AM.

The fact is that Jesus did claim to be the Great I AM God, and the Jews knew it and wanted Him dead.

Look more closely.

John 8:56  Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
John 8:57  Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
John 8:58  Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am
John 8:59  Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Jesus did not say Before Abraham was, I was. The Jehovah,s Witnesses distort the words of Jesus in their Watchtower NWT bible by translating it as  “I have been” because of their Arian bias.

Jesus said  “Before Abraham was, I am“

The Jews knew that Jesus was referring to Himself as  ”I AM ” ”,  the Almighty God, that is why they took up stones to cast at Him. They thought that He was a man claiming to be God.

Undoubtedly, Jesus knew the difference in the Greek between “I am” and “I have been.”  Jesus did not use the form “I have been” in the Greek, but used the form “I am.”  

Thus  clearly the Jews understood that Jesus was Himself claiming to be God and were enraged and wanted Him dead.

Mark 14:62-64 confirms this when Jesus answered the High Priest who said,

“Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?

Mar 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mar 14:63  Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?

Mar 14:64  Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.

Jesus responded with “I am” which provoked the Jewish authorities and prompted them to seek His death.  

This is particularly revealing when we compare John 10:34 where the Pharisees want to kill Jesus because they said He was making Himself equal to God.  The phrase, “I AM” in these contexts surely confirms that.

Exo 3:14  And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM  hath sent me unto you.

Jesus is Jehovah, the Great “I AM”    

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

This is what we are to believe. To believe that Jesus is the Messiah and son of God was the reason for the Book of John. John 20:31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

t8

Dont forget John new Jesus as the Word/God who was made flesh, and who also spoke of Thomas experience just 3 verses up from the scripture you mention.

Jn 1:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jn 20:
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

You see to John the Monogenes (Unique) Son of God meant “God in the flesh”.

Or he wouldnt have written it so!

[NickHassan]

Hi CB,
You say
” He tempoararily laid aside His own divine power and was dependent on God for power. This makes Him our example to follow because we too are to depend totally on God. “

So he was not the God he was reliant on for power?

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
You say
“You see to John the Monogenes (Unique) Son of God meant “God in the flesh”.”

So to John Jesus was not the Son of God at all but God?
That is certainly a UNIQUE kind of son.
In fact not a son at all.

Funny thing but the same John said this

Jn 1
” 14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. “

Whom should we believe?
You or John himself?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2007,00:01)

Hi W, You say “You see to John the Monogenes (Unique) Son of God meant “God in the flesh”.” So to John Jesus was not the Son of God at all but God? That is certainly a UNIQUE kind of son. In fact not a son at all. Funny thing but the same John said this Jn 1 ” 14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. “ Whom should we believe? You or John himself?

NH

So the Word/God stopped being the Word God and was just a man?

So then he wasnt the Lord from heaven at all?

So then he didnt come from the Father since he was no longer the Word/God?

He was just a man. Right?

Whom should we believe you or John?

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 25 2007,00:15)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2007,00:01) Hi W, You say “You see to John the Monogenes (Unique) Son of God meant “God in the flesh”.” So to John Jesus was not the Son of God at all but God? That is certainly a UNIQUE kind of son. In fact not a son at all. Funny thing but the same John said this Jn 1 ” 14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. “ Whom should we believe? You or John himself? NH So the Word/God stopped being the Word God and was just a man? So then he wasnt the Lord from heaven at all? So then he didnt come from the Father since he was no longer the Word/God? He was just a man. Right? Whom should we believe you or John?

Hi W,
If Christ was not a man you cannot follow him.
His origins are another matter.

[Proclaimer]

WorshippingJesus,

I believe that John's gospel is all about proving that Jesus is the son of God and the messiah. I also believe that this is central to true faith and this is central to my teaching for this reason.

You will not talk me out of this by enticing me to follow another doctrine that came later on and says that Jesus is actually God himself.

Sorry but I choose to believe John and the other apostles, even Christ himself rather than you and the followers of Athanasius's doctrine who confuse what it means for Jesus to be God's son by incorrectly saying that he is the God that he is the son of.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.”

As you can see, it is risky business denying the son. 2000 or so years of philosophy on top of scripture doesn't worry me in the slightest.

Jesus is God's son. Scripture is clear on this and I will not be talked out of that and incorrectly believe that he is also God himself who we know is the Father of the son.

I am sure if you thought about it honestly you would agree to my reasons.

[Cult Buster]

t8

Quote

You will not talk me out of this by enticing me to follow another doctrine that came later on and says that Jesus is actually God himself.

So t8, how do you explain the following?

John 8:56  Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
John 8:57  Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
John 8:58  Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am
John 8:59  Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Jesus did not say Before Abraham was, I was. The Jehovah,s Witnesses distort the words of Jesus in their Watchtower NWT bible by translating it as  “I have been” because of their Arian bias.

Jesus said  “Before Abraham was, I am“

The Jews knew that Jesus was referring to Himself as  ”I AM ”,  the Almighty God, that is why they took up stones to cast at Him. They thought that He was a man claiming to be God.

Undoubtedly, Jesus knew the difference in the Greek between “I am” and “I have been.”  Jesus did not use the form “I have been” in the Greek, but used the form “I am.”  

Thus  clearly the Jews understood that Jesus was Himself claiming to be God and were enraged and wanted Him dead.

Mark 14:62-64 confirms this when Jesus answered the High Priest who said,

“Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?

Mar 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mar 14:63  Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?

Mar 14:64  Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.

Jesus responded with “I am” which provoked the Jewish authorities and prompted them to seek His death.  

This is particularly revealing when we compare John 10:34 where the Pharisees want to kill Jesus because they said He was making Himself equal to God.  The phrase, “I AM” in these contexts surely confirms that.

Exo 3:14  And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM  hath sent me unto you.

Jesus is Jehovah, the Great “I AM”    

[david]

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Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

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John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

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Jesus did not say Before Abraham was, I was. This is how the JW's twist His words.

CB, the Bible was not written in English or more specifically the old english of the KJ version.

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The Jews knew that Jesus was referring to Himself as ”I AM ”, the Almighty God, that is why they took up stones to cast at Him. They thought that He was a man claiming to be God. Thus clearly the Jews understood that Jesus was Himself claiming to be God.

I'm sorry CB, but you are without question completely wrong in every way here. We know that Jesus wasn't clearly understood to be claiming to be God because if that were true, it would have been so very easy for the pharisees who wanted him dead to make that charge. INstead, they only accused him of claiming to be the son of God, as Jesus himself said.
But if I told you I was, or existed before Abraham, wouldn't you think me crazy and deserving to be put away? When Jesus said this, it must have looked like he was saying he was greater than Abraham, someone they considered to be their father. Of course they would have wanted him dead for this.

So this statement is simply false and baseless:

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The Jews knew that Jesus was referring to Himself as ”I AM ”, the Almighty God, that is why they took up stones to cast at Him. They thought that He was a man claiming to be God.

I love the way you underline your Bible versions words as though this categorically proved anything:

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He said “Before Abraham was, I am”

YOu know, anyone can do that:

“I have existed before Abraham was born.”
“I existed before Abraham was born.”
“Before Abraham came to be, I was.”
“Before there was an Abraham, I was already there!”
“Before Abraham was born, I was.”
“Before Abraham existed, I was.”

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Here is some more food for thought; the words of Jesus (I AM). Each of these “I am” statements would have reminded His Jewish listeners of the “I AM” statement by God to Moses in the desert? John 6:35 I am the bread of life: John 6:41 I am the bread which came down from heaven. John 8:12 I am the light of the world John 8:23 I am from above: John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd: John 11:25 I am the resurrection, and the life: John 14:6 I am the way, the truth, and the life: Joh 15:1 I am the true vine Joh 13:13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.

How many times do you think I and others have used the words “I am” on this site with reference to ourselves? Bazillions?
I guess that proves something too.

I agree with Timothy who said: “good try though” to you who moreso disproved what you were trying to prove. Thankyou for showing how week your strong trinitarian beliefs are.

david

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