Trinity Debate – Hebrews 1:10

Subject: Hebrews 1:10 proves the Trinity Doctrine
Date: Mar. 24 2007
Debaters: Is 1: 18 & t8

Is 1:18

Hi t8,

Here is my first proof text. I selected Hebrews 1:10 as I think it establishes Yeshua as THE Creator, as well as this it’s also got a fishhook in it for those of a henotheistic persuasion (more on that later). Here is the verse in the context of the entire Chapter:

Hebrews 1
1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they. 5For to which of the angels did He ever say, “YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”? And again, ” I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”? 6And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.” 7And of the angels He says,” WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.” 8But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9″ YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HASANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.” 13But to which of the angels has He ever said, “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET”? 14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?

This verse comes from a chapter in Hebrews where the writer’s obvious premise was to demonstrate the absolute supremacy of the Son to his Jewish readers. It’s an apologetic work where the Hebrew OT texts are heavily drawn upon. This NT writer, like others, appeared to have no hesitancy at all applying to Yeshua OT quotations that exclusively reference YHWH. The OT quotations undoubtedly would have shocked the monotheistic Jews to the core, verses 10-12 especially so. It really is a christological tour de force, which reaches its climax in verses 8-12. It’s interesting to annotate the writer’s conveyances leading up to and immediately following verse 10. Here is a quick summary:

The “world” was made through Him (v 2)
He is said to be the radiance of the Father’s glory [Gr. doxa] (v 3)
He is the exact representation of the Father’s “hypostasis” [nature/substance] (v 3)
He “upholds [sustains] all things by the word of His power” (v 3)
The angels are commanded to worship Him [a sole prerogative of YHWH] (v 6)
He is called “God” (with the definite article) by the Father (v 8)
He is contrasted from false gods (v 11)
Is said to be immutable [an sole attribute of YHWH – e.g. Malachi 3:6] (v 12)

….and in amongst all these, what must have been startling affirmations (to the intended readers), we read this:

And,”YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;

The writer of Hebrews was quoting Psalms 102:25 which was, of course, written about the Most High God, YHWH, as the context of the Psalm unmistakably bears out:

Psalm 102:19-27
19For He looked down from His holy height; From heaven the LORD gazed upon the earth, 20To hear the groaning of the prisoner, To set free those who were doomed to death, 21That men may tell of the name ofthe LORD in Zion And His praise in Jerusalem, 22When the peoples are gathered together, And the kingdoms, to serve the LORD. 23He has weakened my strength in the way; He has shortened my days. 24I say, “O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days, Your years are throughout all generations. 25″Of old You founded the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 26″Even they will perish, but You endure; And all of them will wear out like a garment; Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed. 27″But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end. 28″The children of Your servants will continue, And their descendants will be established before You.”

Psalm 102:25 is a verse quite obviously written about YHWH, but according to the Hebrews’ writer it was, in reality, an utterance spoken by the Father to the Son. The Hebrew’s writer affirms that it was the Father Himself Who personally addresses His Son as THE Creator of the Universe! So here we have a clear elucidation of the Son’s exact role in the creation. To me this shows that the descriptive language in the OT dealing with YHWH’s act of Creation is, in the mind of the author, perfectly APPLICABLE TO the Logos.

Q) In what sense was Yeshua the Creator of the Heavens and Earth?

A) In the sense that was attributed to YHWH in Psalms 102:25!

Hebrews 1:10 shows that the pre-incarnate Jesus was the actual executor of all creation.

In anticipation of this objection (which I’ll paraphrase):

‘he was ascribed an attribute of YHWH, and therefore a passage outlining that attribute, on account of his role as agent’

…I answer:-

Would this not be a grossly misleading and irresponsible thing for the writer to do? He was no doubt schooled up on the laws governing blasphemy, and applying a verse that spoke of YHWH to a lesser being would certainly cross that line. Lesser beings are to be strongly segregated from the One true God, and no sound-thinking and scripturally-literate NT writer would, in writing an apologetic work about a lesser being, submit an OT verse that (even) ostensibly supports Him being YHWH. Unless of course He was YHWH, then it would be quite understandable. I would also say that IF the law of agency was being invoked here, and the verse simply shows that the Son is credited for having acted in the role of YHWH, then we should have other examples of this occurring with characters other than Yeshua. But can we find one t8? Who else in the Bible is ascribed an OT “YHWH” verse as a function of their agency? Maybe you can show me one…..

So, to legitimately extend this objection you will need to explain the writer’s rationale in applying this verse to Yeshua, even though He would have known He would be overtly misleading His Jewish readers about the identity of Yeshua and YHWH, and why he would risk contravening the laws governing blasphemy. You will also need to produce evidence showing that personages other than Yeshua, who likewise acted in the role of ‘agent’, have also ascribed to them passages from the OT that exclusively reference YHWH. Otherwise you are using a ‘law by exception’ as the very foundation of your refutation.

Just to briefly background the scriptural association between Yeshua and Creation, the fact that the pre-incarnate Logos was involved, in some capacity, in the creation of “all things” is a well established biblical precept. John 1:3, 10; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:2 clearly bear this out. For example, in John 1:3 we read:

John 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The statement “All things were made by him” is an astonishingly high statement to make of the Logos. And just to underscore this sentiment there is a exclusionist reiteration in the second part of the verse. There was nothing in the created order that was not made through Him. John could not have made a stronger distinction between the Creator and the “things” that He “made”

Paul concurs, writing an even more emphatic statement:

Colossians 1:16
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him

The language here is unambiguous, according to Paul the Logos created all things, this is an unqualifiedstatement that details precisely what the things were:- “things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities”. Moreover, they were made For Him (Yeshua). Here’s something interesting though, Proverbs 16:4 says that YHWH did it for Himself:

Proverbs 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

If the NT reveals that Christ did it for Himself and the OT reveals that YHWH did it for Himself then, so that basis alone, the logical conclusion is that Yeshua IS Creator YHWH, or else we have a blatant contradiction. And here’s another to consider, in Isaiah 44:24 YHWH declares that He did it “alone”. Job reiterated this in Job 9:8. Does the language in these passages leave any room for the possibility of two independent beings creating “all things”? I don’t think it does. It’s yet another logical dilemma for those that propose that Yeshua is not YHWH, but a lesser being.

At this point I anticipate you will likely be making this objection, which I’ll also paraphrase:

‘The word “dia” is rightly rendered ‘through’, and this word infers that the Logos was not the first cause of Creation but an agent that His father used to bring it into existence (but the Father is the ultimate power behind it).’

This rationale, of course, relegates the Logos to the status of a puppet, used in an instrumental way to achieve the creation. If this were true, and “dia” does connote that, then Romans 11:36 and Hebrews 2:10 challenge this dogma. The same language used in John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16 is also used of “God” in Romans 11:36 and Hebrews 2:10.

Romans 11:32-35
32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. 33Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? 35Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? 36For from Him and through (Gr. dia) Himand to Him are all things To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

cf.

Hebrews 2:10
For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through (Gr. dia) whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.

So to be consistent, you must also accept that “God” in the above two scriptures is not credited for doing the aforementioned things in the active and primary senses (i.e. He was not the ‘efficient cause’), but was rather an intermediary between the real first cause and the recipient, which is clearly ludicrous. So, given this, if this language in Romans 11:36 and Hebrews 2:10 is applicable to “God”, and still denotes that He is the ‘primary cause’ then on what grounds can you apply a different rule to Yeshua when “dia” is used in reference to Him? You can’t have it both ways.

Anyway, moving on. So we have clear scriptural witness attesting, at the very least, to Yeshua’s involvement in bringing about creation, but Hebrews 1:10 elucidates the capacity to which He was involved – according to this verse, and in the opinion of the Father, He was the executor of Creation in the exact sense that YHWH was described as being in Psalms 102:25, “His hands” laid the foundation of the Earth……what would His Jewish readers have made of this? Certainly the writer’s conclusion that Yeshua was YHWH is difficult to escape, especially so when all the data in Hebrews Chapter 1 is considered. Verses 10-12 would have left them with no doubt at all.

Okay now for the “fish hook” I alluded to in the beginning of this post.

Hebrews 1:10
And,”YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;

Please note the highlighted word. Remembering that the texts from vs 5-12 are, according to the writer of Hebrews, attestations made by the Father to the Son (“But of the Son He says” – vs 8), it’s evident that the Father actually addressed the Son as “Lord.” The Greek word “kurios” is used in most LXX manuscripts to render the Divine Name, YHWH. That’s well known. But also, when used in the NT as an honorific (“lord”) it signifies that the one addressed is superior in rank or station to the addresser. The slave addresses his mater as “lord”, not the other way around. This is principal is exceptionless.

So there are two possible scenarios here:

1) The Father was addressing the Son in a way that denoted His subservience, or inferiority in rank, to Yeshua. Or,

2) He was addressing the Son as YHWH.

I assert that #1 cannot be legitimate in light of the many NT verses where the Father is spoken as being “greater than” (i.e. superior in office) to the Son. So that leave only one possibility – The Father addresses the Son as YHWH. This would align perfectly with the context of Hebrews Ch 1 as a whole, which is about the absolute supremacy of the Son. It also fits precisely within the context of verses 10-12, which are OT quotations that manifestly reference YHWH…..

In summary, Hebrews 1:10 is a verse that cannot be overlooked by you t8. According to the writer of Hebrews this quotation from Psalms 102:25, was uttered by the Father to the Son. Yet when we examine the Psalm carefully it’s evident that it speaks exclusively of YHWH. Would a NT writer apply a verse that manifestly references YHWH to the Son if He were not YHWH? I say no. It’s inconceivable that he would do this, as it would grossly mislead the recipients of his letter about the identity of the Son, if He were not YHWH. Nor would he risk the consequence of overt blasphemy by audaciously elevating a lesser being to the status of Most High God, if He were not that God. And let’s bear in mind the context that this verse was placed into:

The “world” was made through Him (v 2)
He is said to be the radiance of the Father’s glory [Gr. doxa] (v 3)
He is the exact representation of the Father’s “hypostasis” [nature/substance] (v 3)
He “upholds [sustains] all things by the word of His power” (v 3)
The angels are commanded to worship Him [a sole prerogative of YHWH] (v 6)
He is called “God” (with the definite article) by the Father (v 8)
He is contrasted from false gods (v 11)

Is said to be immutable [an attribute of YHWH – e.g. Malachi 3:6] (v 12)

The writer in writing Hebrews Chapter 1 had a single overarching motive, to apologetically convey the absolute supremacy of the Son, Yeshua, to his Jewish readers. The chapter is a tour de force that climaxes in the declarations in vss 10-12 that establish Yeshua as THE immutable Creator of the Universe. So this verse has not been ripped out of context, it perfectly fits within the context of the Chapter in perfect harmony.

Okay, now for my questions relating to Hebrews 1:10.

Q1) Does Psalms 102:25 speak of the Father or Son?

Q2) Did the Father address the Son in Psalms 102:25 as the Creator of Earth and the Heavens? And if not please explain how and why your opinion differs from that of the writer of Hebrews.

Q3) Does the Father address the Son with the appellative “kurios” because He was speaking as the subservient, or because He (the Son) is YHWH, or is it because of another reason? [note: if you have a third scenario please produce evidence that the word “kurios” can legitimately be used that way in the NT]

I look forward to reading your answers…..

Blessings t8

Hebrews 1:1-13

1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,

2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.

5 For to which of the angels did He ever say,
“YOU ARE MY SON,
TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”?
And again,
“I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM
AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”?

6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
“AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”

7 And of the angels He says,
“WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS,
AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.”

8 But of the Son He says,
“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”

10 And,
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”

13 But to which of the angels has He ever said,
“SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES
A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET”?

The first thing that has to be said about this verse is that it doesn’t teach a Trinity just as you will find that no scripture does. Yet if there was even one scripture that taught the Trinity doctrine, I would assume that you would have quoted that one as your first one. Yet you choose this one which doesn’t teach the Trinity. If there was a biblical text that specifically taught the Trinity, then you could have blown me out of the water in your first post had you quoted it. I take it that you didn’t quote such a verse because it doesn’t exist.

In any case you use Hebrews to try and prove that Jesus is Yahweh and you say that Jesus is the actual creator. So lets think about that for a moment. If he is the actual creator, then one would have to assume that the Father wasn’t. But then you also say that all things were created through him. So even at this early stage in my rebuttal I provide proof that shows you are double minded on this issue. Which is it? Did he create everything, or was he the one whom God created through? I can’t see both as working, i.e., that Jesus who is God made everything through himself. It stands to reason that the Father made all things through the son does it not?

Now your choice of scripture is an interesting one because verse one starts off with “God” and talks about the son from God’s perspective.

So it is primarily focussed on two identities.

1. God
2. the son.

And it is focussed on what God says and thinks about the son.

Verse 8 & 9 appear to me that God is talking about the son, or what Paul is saying about what David is saying about what God is saying about the son.

8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”

He in the above verse must be God, or possibly the author. (I don’t have time to check this as my reply is delayed enough as it is.)

First thing to note though, is the son has a God and yet the Trinity doctrine tries to teach us that they both and another make up one God.

Anyway, verse 10 seems to be talking about the LORD and how he (&/or the author) sees the son. Not only is this evident from the fact that verse one starts off with the word “God” and then speaks about the son as another, followed by what He or the author says about the son in verses 8, but it is then obvious that it is God who is the HE in verse 13 because it says:

“But to which of the angels has He ever said, “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET”?”

So He is obviously the one spoken of in the immediate preceeding verses, ie., verse 10 – “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; which then means it is a verse about the LORD, not the son.

Think about it, the LORD/God says of his son, “sit at his right hand”. So He in verse 10 cannot be the son because if it was, then He in verse 13 would also be the son and that would then break verse 13 completely and render it as a verse that makes no sense.

So not only is it actually logical that the LORD who said to his son “sit at my right hand”, is the same LORD who laid the foundations for the earth and the heavens, but there are other witness scriptures to prove that the LORD and his son are 2 beings or identities.

Hebrews 1:3 (already quoted)
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

Hebrews 8:1
The point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven,

Acts 7:55
But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.

Let’s face it, Jesus isn’t standing at the right hand of himself, rather the Majesty in Heaven who is God. Stephen saw Jesus at HIS (the Majesty) right hand. He didn’t see a Trinity did he? I wonder if you were there Isaiah if you would have believed Stephen’s witness as to seeing Jesus at HIS right hand, and not a Trinity being that I think you yourself would expect to see.

Anyway, to say that Jesus is actually the LORD, you would then be forced into rendering verse 13 as saying “JESUS says sit at my right hand”. Or if you say that LORD is the Trinity, then it says ‘The Father, Son, Spirit’ said to Jesus “Sit at my right hand”. Neither works does it? The only 2 possibilities that I can see are that the author (Paul) said that (David) said that God said “Sit at my right hand” or that he is just simply saying that God said it to the son”. Either way, it cannot be the son who says “Sits at my right hand”, therefore it cannot be the son who laid the foundations, for the LORD is the one who laid the foundations and He is the one who says “Sit at my right hand”.

I base this rebuttal on the translations as they were presented to me. I didn’t have the time to look deeply into the Greek and so there is also a possibility that a translation issue could add, edit, or correct what I have said above.

So to make this clearer, if my point hasn’t been made obvious thus far:
Try reading verse 10 to 13. It talks about the LORD and how he laid the foundations of creation, and then it talks about the LORD who says of his son, “Sit at my right hand”. Therefore this LORD cannot be Jesus because he is told to sit at the right hand of the LORD. It is verse 8 that seems to throw some off this, yet even before verse 8 it speaks of God and then his son followed by a description of the son, followed again by focusing back on what God said or thinks of his son. In other words you need to look carefully at when it is talking of God or the son. If there is an overlap, you then could confuse Jesus for God couldn’t you?

So to conclude, the person whom this whole perspective is being viewed through is God/LORD/YHWH (or possibly the original one who penned the scripture), and it is about how He (God) sees the/his son and what the LORD says about him. Hebrews even starts with the word God and then moves on to say how he has sent many (prophets) to speak on his behalf and yet who in their right mind would say that any of these prophets are God? Then it is written that he finally sent his son, and who in their right mind would say that the son is God? Well it appears that a certain doctrine that was devised centuries after the Book of Revelation was written causes some (including yourself) to believe this very thing.

From there it is all about what the LORD says and thinks of his son. At times the LORD is spoken of directly and other times he is quoted such as “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET”, when he is speaking of the son.

I leave you with the following verses and wonder how it is possible that you could believe them as they seem to contradict you view:

John 1:10
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So now to your three questions:

Q1) Does Psalms 102:25 speak of the Father or Son?

I would say that it is the Father. In Hebrews it actually says “I will be a Father to him”. Who will be a Father to him? Well it is God/LORD who will be a Father to him.

Q2) Did the Father address the Son in Psalms 102:25 as the Creator of Earth and the Heavens? And if not please explain how and why your opinion differs from that of the writer of Hebrews.

It appears to me that it is David (the writer of that Psalm) who is addressing God.

Q3) Does the Father address the Son with the appellative “kurios” because He was speaking as the subservient, or because He (the Son) is YHWH, or is it because of another reason? [note: if you have a third scenario please produce evidence that the word “kurios” can legitimately be used that way in the NT]

I don’t think it is the Father addressing the son at all, if you are talking of Hebrews 1:10 “YOU, LORD..,”.

OK I have given my rebuttal. Now even though I took my time in replying I would have liked more time to check out the original language to see if what I am saying is so. I do not claim that all I say is true, but that I am a human who struggles with his sinful nature who desires to be perfect and so to that end, I am open to learning what others have to say and of course I am open to changing my mind. My only interest here is that the truth wins. I care less that I win and I am more than willing to change when truth is presented to me. So far your argument that Jesus is the LORD/YHWH/GOD hasn’t even got close to convincing me, but has only made me look deeper into that which I do believe.

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May 6, 2007 at 5:17 am#51486

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Cubes

Context.

Its that simple.

Believe what you want, you have no proof.

The flow of Hebrews 1:8,9,10,11,12 is is speaking of Yeshua.

The writer ascribes Pss 102 to Yeshua, who is the creator.

Pss 102, David is speaking of the creator YHWH.

Simple.

You see it your way, and in my opinion its wrong.

Unbelievers, hear the word of the Lord!

Jesus is the Lord/YHWH from heaven.

John 1:1, Hebrews 1:8, John 20:28, 1 Cor 15:47

Quote (Cubes @ May 06 2007,04:37)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2007,08:54)

Quote (Cubes @ May 03 2007,02:06)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 01 2007,16:46)

Quote (Cubes @ May 01 2007,10:44)

WJ, (from topic/thread: Inference page 13),
You brought this up so I thought to address it here.
Let me first say that I am not entirely sure who the speaker is, however, on the assumption that it is the Father speaking to the son, I would say that Hebrews 1:10 can NOT mean to equate Lord w/ YHWH [LORD], as this violates Psalm 102 itself and so one must again consider that the law came by Moses as truth and grace came by Jesus (John 1) cannot mean that they each created their respective covenants, and likewise, that Yeshua is the creator but rather as various scriptures attest, GOD wrought the creation and our salvation THROUGH him.

Here's why:
There is a petitioner entreating YHWH GOD in Psalm 102:1-24a (if not throughout to vs 28):

Ps 102:1 Hear my prayer, O YHWH, and let my cry come unto thee.

The petitioner refers to himself w/ pronouns I/My/Me from vs. 1-24b while at the same time referring to YHWH as YHWH, GOD, Thy, Thee, Thou (KJV) thru vs 24b, and POSSIBLY thru to vs 28.

Vs. 24b-28 uses pronouns Thy, Thee, Thou, them, they, and at this point, we are not sure who is intended by them, that is, who is saying what to whom. You say that Jesus is being spoken to and this proves he is YHWH.

If YHWH is responding to the petitioner (as it appears he is), then the petitioner has now become he who is referred to in vs 24b-28 as “thy, thou, thee” in these verses. However, once you take this position, you must ABANDON the position that the petitioner is YHWH.

Reason being that:
1) One was identified as YHWH and GOD in the text. It is he who was being petitioned.
2) The suppliant at no time was identified as YHWH or an equal or the same substance as YHWH.
3) It is written, O Trinitarian: Hbr 7:7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.

The greater of the two is YHWH GOD because it is to him, the petitioner already declared his position of weakness throughout vs 1-24a.

If indeed Hebrews 1:10 means to let us understand that Jesus is the subject in those verses, I can receive it in light of Isaiah 9:6 and still, doesn't make Jesus YHWH or equal to YHWH.

Now the other position has been well defended by t8's first post, in that in Ps 102, it could mean that the speaker entreated and praised YHWH throughout. In this case, the petitioner remains the same and GOD remains the same, and we don't have a response being given, in addition to what t8 already said. These are the scenarios that I see.

Cubes

So we disagree.

The writer of the book of Hebrews in chapter 1 is all about exalting Yeshua as it plainly shows.

Vrs 8 and 9 speaks of the Father calling Yeshua, God, and vrs 9 anointing him above his fellows, and the flow goes right into vrs 10,

And the writer continues with…

“*And, Thou, Lord*, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:”

Then the writer continues with verse 13 Speaking of the Son.

The word “And” links verses 8,9 and 10,11,12.

Its evident that the writer of the book of Hebrew in Chapter 1, throughout the whole chapter he is quoting Hebrew text and ascribing them to Yeshua.

Its plain as the nose on my face that the writer in the context is speaking of Yeshua in vrs 10.

Again the key word that links the verses is “AND”, all of the major translations bear this out.

So the truth shines bright. While it is hard for many to recieve.

Yeshua is YHWH, and the creator.

Blessings WJ,

a. Either Heb 1:10's “Lord” is not YHWH (given that the suppliant was never shown to be YHWH in Ps 102), but “Master” referring to Christ in the capacity of one whom the worlds were created through as stated earlier in Heb 1:2

b. It means YHWH (because YHWH remained YHWH consistently through Ps 102), referring exclusively to the Father only by and from whom are all things.

Personally, I believe that your position that Jesus IS YHWH is without scriptural witness, whereas choice “a” has witness as relates to YHWH speaking creation into being (the WORD which was made flesh), and choice “b” has abundant witness throughout scripture.

So there. It's not what I am saying: it's what is written.

Regarding this second debate you brought up, I cannot visit it now but hope to soon, as God gives insight.

Cubes

You dont get it do you?

This is exactly what the writer is trying to convey is that Yeshau is YHWH.

You are blatantly misinterpreting Heb 1:10 when the flow of the context is speaking of Yeshua.

“and” the Lord…

But if we are to take your position that David may be speaking of Yeshua as master then you also have a contradiction because it says…

Pss 102
I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.
25 *Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.

There is no median spoken of here. This is a solo declaration that by his hands he laid the foundations of the earth!

And if David is meaning Yeshua is just a master and the creator here, then you have a contradiction.

Isa 45:
11 Thus saith the *LORD ,(YHWH)* the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and *concerning the work of my hands* command ye me.
12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: *I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens*, and all their host have I commanded.

Either way to harmonize the scriptures Yeshua has to be YHWH in the flesh.

And as far as Yeshua being YHWH, maybe you can give us your thoughts on Zech Ch 12 and 14.

And also I would like to see your comment on Is 1:18 proof text #2.

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1311

Hello WJ,

Where do you even begin to establish that Christ is YHWH in Ps 102? What is much more apparent is that Christ's life for the 33 years on earth so much more closely identifies w/ our own lives in terms of his suffering.

Here is Psalm 102.

Someone less than
YHWH addresses his/her needs to YHWH. Who is this person/petitioner?
Petitioner would also seem to be the role of a highpriest, who ever lives to advocate and make intercession for us. The prayer scene in the Garden of Gethsame also comes to mind. This person is praying for himself, for zion, for all godly generations.

Whoever he is, he knows he is NOT YHWH because he is not praying TO himself. Do you pray TO yourself? You may talk to yourself but surely not pray to yourself.
Jesus prayed TO YHWH. Show us where YHWH prayed to himself or to anyone?

Vs 1-11, the petitioner is telling YHWH about his PERSONAL troubles in a manner reminiscent of other messianic psalms like Ps 22, 40.

Psa 102:1 PSALM 102
A Prayer of the afflicted, when he is overwhelmed and pours out his complaint before the LORD.
HEAR my prayer, O LORD,
And let my cry come to You.
Psa 102:2 Do not hide Your face from me in the day of my trouble;
Incline Your ear to me;
In the day that I call, answer me speedily.

Psa 102:3 For my days are consumed like smoke,
And my bones are burned like a hearth.
Psa 102:4 My heart is stricken and withered like grass,
So that I forget to eat my bread.
Psa 102:5 Because of the sound of my groaning
My bones cling to my skin.
Psa 102:6 I am like a pelican of the wilderness;
I am like an owl of the desert.
Psa 102:7 I lie awake,
And am like a sparrow alone on the housetop.

Psa 102:8 My enemies reproach me all day long;
Those who deride me swear an oath against me.
Psa 102:9 For I have eaten ashes like bread,
And mingled my drink with weeping,
Psa 102:10 Because of Your indignation and Your wrath;
For You have lifted me up and cast me away.
Psa 102:11 My days are like a shadow that lengthens,
And I wither away like grass.

vs 12-20f – Here, the petitioner praises YHWH and advocates for Zion and YHWH's people, in hope. Eternal YHWH will have mercy on Zion, a place in which YHWH's servants delight…
(Luke 1:69f); He shall answer the prayer of his people (Miriam, Hannah and Mary's songs);

Vs. 20 – Please hear Jesus say how the spirit of YHWH anointed him to preach good news, to set captives free, etc. Luke 4:17f, Is 61. Note that if Jesus is the One GOD YHWH, then ANOTHER anointed him… he did not anoint himself, and it doesn't say “my father anointed me,” in fact, Hebrews 1:8f says that HIS GOD and [the begetter] anointed him w/ the oil of gladness…. I cannot think of any scripture where anyone anoints YHWH! On the contrary.

So the Petitioner praises and hopes in YHWH towards Zion, even for generations to come.

Psa 102:12 But You, O LORD, shall endure forever,
And the remembrance of Your name to all generations.
Psa 102:13 You will arise and have mercy on Zion;
For the time to favor her,
Yes, the set time, has come.
Psa 102:14 For Your servants take pleasure in her stones,
And show favor to her dust.
Psa 102:15 So the nations shall fear the name of the LORD,
And all the kings of the earth Your glory.
Psa 102:16 For the LORD shall build up Zion;
He shall appear in His glory.
Psa 102:17 He shall regard the prayer of the destitute,
And shall not despise their prayer.

Psa 102:18 This will be written for the generation to come,
That a people yet to be created may praise the LORD.
Psa 102:19 For He looked down from the height of His sanctuary;
From heaven the LORD viewed the earth,
Psa 102:20 To hear the groaning of the prisoner,
To release those appointed to death,
Psa 102:21 To declare the name of the LORD in Zion,
And His praise in Jerusalem,
Psa 102:22 When the peoples are gathered together,
And the kingdoms, to serve the LORD.

vs. 23-24a – The petitioner speaks of his personal plight and anguish once again as in vs 1-11. Again, it reveberates messianic verses about the suffering servant.

In vs 24b, as in vs. 12-20, IT APPEARS the same petitioner begins to once again focus on who YHWH is, praising him and confessing him as maker and Father; and so it could be viewed as such which makes much more sense to me now actually.

OR that at this point, YHWH decided to respond to the petioner and uttered the pronouncements of vs. 24b-28 concerning him.

If so, this would not only confirm the petitioner as the suffering Messiah (which can be done outside of this Psalm, mind you), but would at least seem to then corrolate the Messiah w/ the laying of the foundations of the earth, and SO we could possibly then say that messiah laid the foundations of the world as GOD permitted.

If not, then you have no case at all so far. Your best bet for your position DEMANDS that you acknowledge Christ as the petitioner in Ps 102 because the things said ABOUT the Petitioner are closely identified w/ Christ and not w/ YHWH.
*Also the things said about YHWH are identified w/ Christ only as conferred upon him BY YHWH, e.g. he was sent to save the world, he was appointed to be a highpriest… he didn't take things upon himself and authority was GIVEN to him.

Once that is done, then you have to interpret the verses in question alongside the verses that say things were created THROUGH the word, Jesus, (Heb 1:2, Col 1:15f) as those are equally scripture. You can't make a case for changing the persona of the ALMIGHTY to another using “and” as you suggest, not in the face of such overwhelming data proclaimng GOD as the Father of us all.

Psa 102:23 He weakened my strength in the way;
He shortened my days.
Psa 102:24 I said, “O my God,
Do not take me away in the midst of my days;
Your years are throughout all generations.
Psa 102:25 Of old You laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Psa 102:26 They will perish, but You will endure;
Yes, they will all grow old like a garment;
Like a cloak You will change them,
And they will be changed.
Psa 102:27 But You are the same,
And Your years will have no end.
Psa 102:28 The children of Your servants will continue,
And their descendants will be established before You.”

If you say that YHWH in this Psalm is Christ, then explain why Christ was anointed BY YHWH and is called his anointed? (why it doesn't say he anointed himself).
Why was it, Christ experienced those messianic sufferings even unto death with his brethren. And it does not say, YHWH suffered them.
How YHWH died (and please don't bring up the modalists here… because if Christ is YHWH, then YHWH died).
etc.

Why do you suppose Paul cited Romans 8:36 if Jesus IS YHWH? (Ps 44, 40 etc)

Rom 8:32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
Rom 8:34 Who is he who condemns? IT IS CHRIST WHO DIED, and furthermore IS ALSO RISEN, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written:

“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”[fn2]

Pardon me for the long post. I didn't want to break up Ps 102.
Will check in again when I can.

One God and Father of all, YHWH, bro.
One only begotten son and Messiah, the Lord of all, Christ Jesus.
The two are not the same, GOD is greater indeed.

May 6, 2007 at 5:36 am#51487

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (Cubes @ May 06 2007,09:20)

According to Psalm 22, a prophetic messianic Psalm concerning Yeshua:
the messiah is clearly NOT YHWH
and YHWH is NOT the messiah. Why then do the rules change w/ Psalm 102?

Psalm 22

#Psa 22:1 PSALM 22
To the Chief Musician. Set to “The Deer of the Dawn.”#[fn1] A Psalm of David.
MY God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?
Why are You so far from helping Me,
And from the words of My groaning?
#Psa 22:2 O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear;
And in the night season, and am not silent.
#Psa 22:3 But You are holy,
Enthroned in the praises of Israel.
#Psa 22:4 Our fathers trusted in You;
They trusted, and You delivered them.
#Psa 22:5 They cried to You, and were delivered;
They trusted in You, and were not ashamed.
#Psa 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man;
A reproach of men, and despised by the people.
#Psa 22:7 All those who see Me ridicule Me;
They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
#Psa 22:8 “He trusted#[fn2] in YHWH, let Him rescue Him;
Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him!”
#Psa 22:9 But You are He who took Me out of the womb;
You made Me trust while on My mother's breasts.
#Psa 22:10 I was cast upon You from birth.
From My mother's womb
You have been My God.
#Psa 22:11 Be not far from Me,
For trouble is near;
For there is none to help.
#Psa 22:12 Many bulls have surrounded Me;
Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled Me.
#Psa 22:13 They gape at Me with their mouths,
Like a raging and roaring lion.
#Psa 22:14 I am poured out like water,
And all My bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It has melted within Me.
#Psa 22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
And My tongue clings to My jaws;
You have brought Me to the dust of death.
#Psa 22:16 For dogs have surrounded Me;
The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me.
They pierced#[fn3] My hands and My feet;
#Psa 22:17 I can count all My bones.
They look and stare at Me.
#Psa 22:18 They divide My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots.
#Psa 22:19 But You, O YHWH, do not be far from Me;
O My Strength, hasten to help Me!
#Psa 22:20 Deliver Me from the sword,
My precious life from the power of the dog.
#Psa 22:21 Save Me from the lion's mouth
And from the horns of the wild oxen!
You have answered Me.
#Psa 22:22 I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will praise You.
#Psa 22:23 You who fear YHWH, praise Him!
All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him,
And fear Him, all you offspring of Israel!
#Psa 22:24 For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from Him;
But when He cried to Him, He heard.
#Psa 22:25 My praise shall be of You in the great assembly;
I will pay My vows before those who fear Him.
#Psa 22:26 The poor shall eat and be satisfied;
Those who seek Him will praise YHWH.
Let your heart live forever!
#Psa 22:27 All the ends of the world
Shall remember and turn to YHWH,
And all the families of the nations
Shall worship before You.#[fn4]
#Psa 22:28 For the kingdom is YHWH‘s,
And He rules over the nations.
#Psa 22:29 All the prosperous of the earth
Shall eat and worship;
All those who go down to the dust
Shall bow before Him,
Even he who cannot keep himself alive.
#Psa 22:30 A posterity shall serve Him.
It will be recounted of the Lord to the next generation,
#Psa 22:31 They will come and declare His righteousness to a people who will be born,
That He has done this.

——

Act 17:2 Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and demonstrating that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus whom I preach to you is the Christ.”

Luke 24:6 He is not here, but is risen! Remember how He spoke to you when He was still in Galilee, 7 saying, 'The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.'”

25 Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” 27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.
46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, [fn8] and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. …”

Therefore, I agree without reservation that scripture is by no private interpretation; and that the various scriptures show that Hebrews 1:10f refers to the Father and not to Yeshua. Scripture is consistent, Messiah is Messiah and YHWH is YHWH.

YHWH's blessings upon his people in Christ Jesus. Amen.

Cubes

The rules dont change but YHWH is a name for God that speaks of both the Father and Yeshua throughout the Hebrew scriptures.

Maybe this will help!

http://www.eadshome.com/Jesuslessons.htm

:;):

May 6, 2007 at 9:05 am#51494

Is 1:18

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 06 2007,16:50)

Hi Is 1.18,
Scripture is collectively the Words of God though not every word written there is true as with the quotes from Christ's enemies.
God at times is directly quoted in Scripture as in the quote from Ps 2.
At other times God speaks by His Spirit in His servants as with David in Ps 110

Heb1
5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

11They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

12And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

13But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Ps 110
“1The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

2The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

3Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

4The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.”

When God speaks through His Spirit in men then it is written in the third person as the servant speaks as a reporter would. That is because two are involved, the servant who writes and the Spirit of God Who gives the words.

We don't really need to use conjecture as to exactly who addressed whom in Psa 102:25, the writer of Hebrews saves us that trouble when he wrote:

Hebrews 1:10
8But unto the Son he [The Father -v6] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

According to the writer of Hebrews the Psalm 102:25 quote was an utterance made by the Father to the Son. It's quite plain in the Hebrews text. Or are you proposing here that you have a better understanding of the OT quote than a NT writer?

May 6, 2007 at 9:10 am#51497

NickHassan

Participant

Hi Is1.18,
Do you think it was a quote directly from God rather than through David?
Why do you ascribe it to David's psalm then?

May 6, 2007 at 9:14 am#51498

Is 1:18

Participant

What difference does it make?? Clearly it is not David that is doing the addressing or being addressed in Psalm 102:25…

You agree with that, right?

May 6, 2007 at 9:16 am#51500

Is 1:18

Participant

As it is quoted in Hebrews 1:10, I mean.

May 6, 2007 at 9:19 am#51501

NickHassan

Participant

Hi Is 1.18,

Ps 102
” 24I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.

25Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.

26They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:”

Some things are said in scripture that clearly relate to God and can also can be applied to Christ. But we should not then make the huge jump of presumption that such a dual application proves anything, such as they are the same being.

May 6, 2007 at 9:27 am#51503

Is 1:18

Participant

I have aligned my view with the writer of Hebrews. I think he was right when wrote, in plain language, that Psalm 102:25 was spoken by the Father to the Son. How about you? Do you think he was right? Doesn't look like it to me.

May 6, 2007 at 9:34 am#51504

Cult Buster

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 07 2007,01:05)