Trinity Debate – Hebrews 1:10

Subject: Hebrews 1:10 proves the Trinity Doctrine
Date: Mar. 24 2007
Debaters: Is 1: 18 & t8

Is 1:18

Hi t8,

Here is my first proof text. I selected Hebrews 1:10 as I think it establishes Yeshua as THE Creator, as well as this it’s also got a fishhook in it for those of a henotheistic persuasion (more on that later). Here is the verse in the context of the entire Chapter:

Hebrews 1
1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they. 5For to which of the angels did He ever say, “YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”? And again, ” I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”? 6And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.” 7And of the angels He says,” WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.” 8But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9″ YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HASANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.” 13But to which of the angels has He ever said, “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET”? 14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?

This verse comes from a chapter in Hebrews where the writer’s obvious premise was to demonstrate the absolute supremacy of the Son to his Jewish readers. It’s an apologetic work where the Hebrew OT texts are heavily drawn upon. This NT writer, like others, appeared to have no hesitancy at all applying to Yeshua OT quotations that exclusively reference YHWH. The OT quotations undoubtedly would have shocked the monotheistic Jews to the core, verses 10-12 especially so. It really is a christological tour de force, which reaches its climax in verses 8-12. It’s interesting to annotate the writer’s conveyances leading up to and immediately following verse 10. Here is a quick summary:

The “world” was made through Him (v 2)
He is said to be the radiance of the Father’s glory [Gr. doxa] (v 3)
He is the exact representation of the Father’s “hypostasis” [nature/substance] (v 3)
He “upholds [sustains] all things by the word of His power” (v 3)
The angels are commanded to worship Him [a sole prerogative of YHWH] (v 6)
He is called “God” (with the definite article) by the Father (v 8)
He is contrasted from false gods (v 11)
Is said to be immutable [an sole attribute of YHWH – e.g. Malachi 3:6] (v 12)

….and in amongst all these, what must have been startling affirmations (to the intended readers), we read this:

And,”YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;

The writer of Hebrews was quoting Psalms 102:25 which was, of course, written about the Most High God, YHWH, as the context of the Psalm unmistakably bears out:

Psalm 102:19-27
19For He looked down from His holy height; From heaven the LORD gazed upon the earth, 20To hear the groaning of the prisoner, To set free those who were doomed to death, 21That men may tell of the name ofthe LORD in Zion And His praise in Jerusalem, 22When the peoples are gathered together, And the kingdoms, to serve the LORD. 23He has weakened my strength in the way; He has shortened my days. 24I say, “O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days, Your years are throughout all generations. 25″Of old You founded the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 26″Even they will perish, but You endure; And all of them will wear out like a garment; Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed. 27″But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end. 28″The children of Your servants will continue, And their descendants will be established before You.”

Psalm 102:25 is a verse quite obviously written about YHWH, but according to the Hebrews’ writer it was, in reality, an utterance spoken by the Father to the Son. The Hebrew’s writer affirms that it was the Father Himself Who personally addresses His Son as THE Creator of the Universe! So here we have a clear elucidation of the Son’s exact role in the creation. To me this shows that the descriptive language in the OT dealing with YHWH’s act of Creation is, in the mind of the author, perfectly APPLICABLE TO the Logos.

Q) In what sense was Yeshua the Creator of the Heavens and Earth?

A) In the sense that was attributed to YHWH in Psalms 102:25!

Hebrews 1:10 shows that the pre-incarnate Jesus was the actual executor of all creation.

In anticipation of this objection (which I’ll paraphrase):

‘he was ascribed an attribute of YHWH, and therefore a passage outlining that attribute, on account of his role as agent’

…I answer:-

Would this not be a grossly misleading and irresponsible thing for the writer to do? He was no doubt schooled up on the laws governing blasphemy, and applying a verse that spoke of YHWH to a lesser being would certainly cross that line. Lesser beings are to be strongly segregated from the One true God, and no sound-thinking and scripturally-literate NT writer would, in writing an apologetic work about a lesser being, submit an OT verse that (even) ostensibly supports Him being YHWH. Unless of course He was YHWH, then it would be quite understandable. I would also say that IF the law of agency was being invoked here, and the verse simply shows that the Son is credited for having acted in the role of YHWH, then we should have other examples of this occurring with characters other than Yeshua. But can we find one t8? Who else in the Bible is ascribed an OT “YHWH” verse as a function of their agency? Maybe you can show me one…..

So, to legitimately extend this objection you will need to explain the writer’s rationale in applying this verse to Yeshua, even though He would have known He would be overtly misleading His Jewish readers about the identity of Yeshua and YHWH, and why he would risk contravening the laws governing blasphemy. You will also need to produce evidence showing that personages other than Yeshua, who likewise acted in the role of ‘agent’, have also ascribed to them passages from the OT that exclusively reference YHWH. Otherwise you are using a ‘law by exception’ as the very foundation of your refutation.

Just to briefly background the scriptural association between Yeshua and Creation, the fact that the pre-incarnate Logos was involved, in some capacity, in the creation of “all things” is a well established biblical precept. John 1:3, 10; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:2 clearly bear this out. For example, in John 1:3 we read:

John 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The statement “All things were made by him” is an astonishingly high statement to make of the Logos. And just to underscore this sentiment there is a exclusionist reiteration in the second part of the verse. There was nothing in the created order that was not made through Him. John could not have made a stronger distinction between the Creator and the “things” that He “made”

Paul concurs, writing an even more emphatic statement:

Colossians 1:16
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him

The language here is unambiguous, according to Paul the Logos created all things, this is an unqualifiedstatement that details precisely what the things were:- “things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities”. Moreover, they were made For Him (Yeshua). Here’s something interesting though, Proverbs 16:4 says that YHWH did it for Himself:

Proverbs 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

If the NT reveals that Christ did it for Himself and the OT reveals that YHWH did it for Himself then, so that basis alone, the logical conclusion is that Yeshua IS Creator YHWH, or else we have a blatant contradiction. And here’s another to consider, in Isaiah 44:24 YHWH declares that He did it “alone”. Job reiterated this in Job 9:8. Does the language in these passages leave any room for the possibility of two independent beings creating “all things”? I don’t think it does. It’s yet another logical dilemma for those that propose that Yeshua is not YHWH, but a lesser being.

At this point I anticipate you will likely be making this objection, which I’ll also paraphrase:

‘The word “dia” is rightly rendered ‘through’, and this word infers that the Logos was not the first cause of Creation but an agent that His father used to bring it into existence (but the Father is the ultimate power behind it).’

This rationale, of course, relegates the Logos to the status of a puppet, used in an instrumental way to achieve the creation. If this were true, and “dia” does connote that, then Romans 11:36 and Hebrews 2:10 challenge this dogma. The same language used in John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16 is also used of “God” in Romans 11:36 and Hebrews 2:10.

Romans 11:32-35
32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. 33Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? 35Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? 36For from Him and through (Gr. dia) Himand to Him are all things To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

cf.

Hebrews 2:10
For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through (Gr. dia) whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.

So to be consistent, you must also accept that “God” in the above two scriptures is not credited for doing the aforementioned things in the active and primary senses (i.e. He was not the ‘efficient cause’), but was rather an intermediary between the real first cause and the recipient, which is clearly ludicrous. So, given this, if this language in Romans 11:36 and Hebrews 2:10 is applicable to “God”, and still denotes that He is the ‘primary cause’ then on what grounds can you apply a different rule to Yeshua when “dia” is used in reference to Him? You can’t have it both ways.

Anyway, moving on. So we have clear scriptural witness attesting, at the very least, to Yeshua’s involvement in bringing about creation, but Hebrews 1:10 elucidates the capacity to which He was involved – according to this verse, and in the opinion of the Father, He was the executor of Creation in the exact sense that YHWH was described as being in Psalms 102:25, “His hands” laid the foundation of the Earth……what would His Jewish readers have made of this? Certainly the writer’s conclusion that Yeshua was YHWH is difficult to escape, especially so when all the data in Hebrews Chapter 1 is considered. Verses 10-12 would have left them with no doubt at all.

Okay now for the “fish hook” I alluded to in the beginning of this post.

Hebrews 1:10
And,”YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;

Please note the highlighted word. Remembering that the texts from vs 5-12 are, according to the writer of Hebrews, attestations made by the Father to the Son (“But of the Son He says” – vs 8), it’s evident that the Father actually addressed the Son as “Lord.” The Greek word “kurios” is used in most LXX manuscripts to render the Divine Name, YHWH. That’s well known. But also, when used in the NT as an honorific (“lord”) it signifies that the one addressed is superior in rank or station to the addresser. The slave addresses his mater as “lord”, not the other way around. This is principal is exceptionless.

So there are two possible scenarios here:

1) The Father was addressing the Son in a way that denoted His subservience, or inferiority in rank, to Yeshua. Or,

2) He was addressing the Son as YHWH.

I assert that #1 cannot be legitimate in light of the many NT verses where the Father is spoken as being “greater than” (i.e. superior in office) to the Son. So that leave only one possibility – The Father addresses the Son as YHWH. This would align perfectly with the context of Hebrews Ch 1 as a whole, which is about the absolute supremacy of the Son. It also fits precisely within the context of verses 10-12, which are OT quotations that manifestly reference YHWH…..

In summary, Hebrews 1:10 is a verse that cannot be overlooked by you t8. According to the writer of Hebrews this quotation from Psalms 102:25, was uttered by the Father to the Son. Yet when we examine the Psalm carefully it’s evident that it speaks exclusively of YHWH. Would a NT writer apply a verse that manifestly references YHWH to the Son if He were not YHWH? I say no. It’s inconceivable that he would do this, as it would grossly mislead the recipients of his letter about the identity of the Son, if He were not YHWH. Nor would he risk the consequence of overt blasphemy by audaciously elevating a lesser being to the status of Most High God, if He were not that God. And let’s bear in mind the context that this verse was placed into:

The “world” was made through Him (v 2)
He is said to be the radiance of the Father’s glory [Gr. doxa] (v 3)
He is the exact representation of the Father’s “hypostasis” [nature/substance] (v 3)
He “upholds [sustains] all things by the word of His power” (v 3)
The angels are commanded to worship Him [a sole prerogative of YHWH] (v 6)
He is called “God” (with the definite article) by the Father (v 8)
He is contrasted from false gods (v 11)

Is said to be immutable [an attribute of YHWH – e.g. Malachi 3:6] (v 12)

The writer in writing Hebrews Chapter 1 had a single overarching motive, to apologetically convey the absolute supremacy of the Son, Yeshua, to his Jewish readers. The chapter is a tour de force that climaxes in the declarations in vss 10-12 that establish Yeshua as THE immutable Creator of the Universe. So this verse has not been ripped out of context, it perfectly fits within the context of the Chapter in perfect harmony.

Okay, now for my questions relating to Hebrews 1:10.

Q1) Does Psalms 102:25 speak of the Father or Son?

Q2) Did the Father address the Son in Psalms 102:25 as the Creator of Earth and the Heavens? And if not please explain how and why your opinion differs from that of the writer of Hebrews.

Q3) Does the Father address the Son with the appellative “kurios” because He was speaking as the subservient, or because He (the Son) is YHWH, or is it because of another reason? [note: if you have a third scenario please produce evidence that the word “kurios” can legitimately be used that way in the NT]

I look forward to reading your answers…..

Blessings t8

Hebrews 1:1-13

1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,

2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.

5 For to which of the angels did He ever say,
“YOU ARE MY SON,
TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”?
And again,
“I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM
AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”?

6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
“AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”

7 And of the angels He says,
“WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS,
AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.”

8 But of the Son He says,
“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”

10 And,
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”

13 But to which of the angels has He ever said,
“SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES
A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET”?

The first thing that has to be said about this verse is that it doesn’t teach a Trinity just as you will find that no scripture does. Yet if there was even one scripture that taught the Trinity doctrine, I would assume that you would have quoted that one as your first one. Yet you choose this one which doesn’t teach the Trinity. If there was a biblical text that specifically taught the Trinity, then you could have blown me out of the water in your first post had you quoted it. I take it that you didn’t quote such a verse because it doesn’t exist.

In any case you use Hebrews to try and prove that Jesus is Yahweh and you say that Jesus is the actual creator. So lets think about that for a moment. If he is the actual creator, then one would have to assume that the Father wasn’t. But then you also say that all things were created through him. So even at this early stage in my rebuttal I provide proof that shows you are double minded on this issue. Which is it? Did he create everything, or was he the one whom God created through? I can’t see both as working, i.e., that Jesus who is God made everything through himself. It stands to reason that the Father made all things through the son does it not?

Now your choice of scripture is an interesting one because verse one starts off with “God” and talks about the son from God’s perspective.

So it is primarily focussed on two identities.

1. God
2. the son.

And it is focussed on what God says and thinks about the son.

Verse 8 & 9 appear to me that God is talking about the son, or what Paul is saying about what David is saying about what God is saying about the son.

8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”

He in the above verse must be God, or possibly the author. (I don’t have time to check this as my reply is delayed enough as it is.)

First thing to note though, is the son has a God and yet the Trinity doctrine tries to teach us that they both and another make up one God.

Anyway, verse 10 seems to be talking about the LORD and how he (&/or the author) sees the son. Not only is this evident from the fact that verse one starts off with the word “God” and then speaks about the son as another, followed by what He or the author says about the son in verses 8, but it is then obvious that it is God who is the HE in verse 13 because it says:

“But to which of the angels has He ever said, “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET”?”

So He is obviously the one spoken of in the immediate preceeding verses, ie., verse 10 – “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; which then means it is a verse about the LORD, not the son.

Think about it, the LORD/God says of his son, “sit at his right hand”. So He in verse 10 cannot be the son because if it was, then He in verse 13 would also be the son and that would then break verse 13 completely and render it as a verse that makes no sense.

So not only is it actually logical that the LORD who said to his son “sit at my right hand”, is the same LORD who laid the foundations for the earth and the heavens, but there are other witness scriptures to prove that the LORD and his son are 2 beings or identities.

Hebrews 1:3 (already quoted)
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

Hebrews 8:1
The point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven,

Acts 7:55
But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.

Let’s face it, Jesus isn’t standing at the right hand of himself, rather the Majesty in Heaven who is God. Stephen saw Jesus at HIS (the Majesty) right hand. He didn’t see a Trinity did he? I wonder if you were there Isaiah if you would have believed Stephen’s witness as to seeing Jesus at HIS right hand, and not a Trinity being that I think you yourself would expect to see.

Anyway, to say that Jesus is actually the LORD, you would then be forced into rendering verse 13 as saying “JESUS says sit at my right hand”. Or if you say that LORD is the Trinity, then it says ‘The Father, Son, Spirit’ said to Jesus “Sit at my right hand”. Neither works does it? The only 2 possibilities that I can see are that the author (Paul) said that (David) said that God said “Sit at my right hand” or that he is just simply saying that God said it to the son”. Either way, it cannot be the son who says “Sits at my right hand”, therefore it cannot be the son who laid the foundations, for the LORD is the one who laid the foundations and He is the one who says “Sit at my right hand”.

I base this rebuttal on the translations as they were presented to me. I didn’t have the time to look deeply into the Greek and so there is also a possibility that a translation issue could add, edit, or correct what I have said above.

So to make this clearer, if my point hasn’t been made obvious thus far:
Try reading verse 10 to 13. It talks about the LORD and how he laid the foundations of creation, and then it talks about the LORD who says of his son, “Sit at my right hand”. Therefore this LORD cannot be Jesus because he is told to sit at the right hand of the LORD. It is verse 8 that seems to throw some off this, yet even before verse 8 it speaks of God and then his son followed by a description of the son, followed again by focusing back on what God said or thinks of his son. In other words you need to look carefully at when it is talking of God or the son. If there is an overlap, you then could confuse Jesus for God couldn’t you?

So to conclude, the person whom this whole perspective is being viewed through is God/LORD/YHWH (or possibly the original one who penned the scripture), and it is about how He (God) sees the/his son and what the LORD says about him. Hebrews even starts with the word God and then moves on to say how he has sent many (prophets) to speak on his behalf and yet who in their right mind would say that any of these prophets are God? Then it is written that he finally sent his son, and who in their right mind would say that the son is God? Well it appears that a certain doctrine that was devised centuries after the Book of Revelation was written causes some (including yourself) to believe this very thing.

From there it is all about what the LORD says and thinks of his son. At times the LORD is spoken of directly and other times he is quoted such as “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET”, when he is speaking of the son.

I leave you with the following verses and wonder how it is possible that you could believe them as they seem to contradict you view:

John 1:10
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So now to your three questions:

Q1) Does Psalms 102:25 speak of the Father or Son?

I would say that it is the Father. In Hebrews it actually says “I will be a Father to him”. Who will be a Father to him? Well it is God/LORD who will be a Father to him.

Q2) Did the Father address the Son in Psalms 102:25 as the Creator of Earth and the Heavens? And if not please explain how and why your opinion differs from that of the writer of Hebrews.

It appears to me that it is David (the writer of that Psalm) who is addressing God.

Q3) Does the Father address the Son with the appellative “kurios” because He was speaking as the subservient, or because He (the Son) is YHWH, or is it because of another reason? [note: if you have a third scenario please produce evidence that the word “kurios” can legitimately be used that way in the NT]

I don’t think it is the Father addressing the son at all, if you are talking of Hebrews 1:10 “YOU, LORD..,”.

OK I have given my rebuttal. Now even though I took my time in replying I would have liked more time to check out the original language to see if what I am saying is so. I do not claim that all I say is true, but that I am a human who struggles with his sinful nature who desires to be perfect and so to that end, I am open to learning what others have to say and of course I am open to changing my mind. My only interest here is that the truth wins. I care less that I win and I am more than willing to change when truth is presented to me. So far your argument that Jesus is the LORD/YHWH/GOD hasn’t even got close to convincing me, but has only made me look deeper into that which I do believe.

This topic is empty.

Viewing 20 posts - 181 through 200 (of 442 total)

←1 2 3…91011…21 22 23 →

Author
Posts

May 16, 2007 at 9:45 am#52324

marthinus

Participant

Tim2
See 1Corinthians 3:23 and ye are Christ's and Christ is God's This does not say Christ is God.

marthinus

May 16, 2007 at 10:07 am#52327

NickHassan

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 16 2007,05:00)

Quote (Cult Buster @ May 16 2007,01:43)

Marthinus

Quote

Hi Cult B

I asked you the other day to explain Psalm 22 (also the words Jesus quoted on the cross) Also Proverbs 8:22-36 Please explain these Scriptures from the Old Testament.

Hi Marthinus. Do you believe that Proverbs 8:22-36 is referring to Christ?

The context clearly shows that the passage is referring to God's own eternal attribute of Wisdom: See the first verse.

Pro 8:1 Does not wisdom call? And does not understanding speak?

Marthinus.
With Psalm 22, we must consider it in the context of Christ's incarnation or His mission as Messiah. Please see the following which I have posted before. I hope that I have addressed all of your comments. CB.

There has on this forum been much confusion between Christ’s mission or “office” as Messiah and that of His substance which is The Eternal God. Some focus on Christ's incarnation as a man, yet they ignore the overwhelming evidence of His deity.

When Christ was to leave heaven and was to take the form of a man He did not cease to be God. He simply put aside His own divine power and was dependent on God for power. This makes Him our example to follow because we too are to depend totally on God.

Some on this forum just want to look at Bible verses that are in the context of Christ mission as Messiah but don't like when shown the multitude of scripture identifying Him as the divine Jehovah God.
Jesus Christ is the creator, not a creature and will always be equal to the Father in this sense. Jn 1:1 says, “and the word was God”.

However, before the incarnation, Jesus made a choice to submit to the Father as His head. He had to live in His humanity as a man depending on God for power. Jesus did not give up being God, He was subject to and obeying the Father while living as a man or within the context of He being Messiah and High Priest which is still continuing

]Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

He had to overcome Satan while living as a man. Christ did not come to earth to show what a God can do, but what man can do when he depends on God for power. He succeeded where Adam failed.

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

A human body was fashioned for Christ. A body which had sinful propensities just like ours. A body less than what Adam had, weakened by the curse of sin.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh

Christ condemned sin in the flesh. He resisted sin. Don’t forget that He laid aside His divine power and did not use it for His own benefit, overcoming temptation relying on God for power. We too can resist temptation if we rely on God for power. Christ was our example.

Phi 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phi 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phi 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Luk 4:2 (Jesus) Being forty days tempted of the devil.
Luk 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Who was being tempted here? Jesus; The Lord thy God

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

]Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us

There are some instances in the scripture where Jesus calls the Father..His God and says the Father is greater than I.

In these instances Jesus was encumbered with humanity or within the context of Him being the Messiah. Don’t forget that Christ is still ministering for us right now as our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary. So His mission as Messiah and High Priest is not yet over.

Even within the Godhead each Divine Person recognise and have reverence for the other as God.

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom

The phrase “O God” is a worshipful phrase indicating the reverence each Person of the Godhead have one for another. Each recognises the other as their God. Each are willing to submit one to the other.

Within the Godhead a plan was made for the salvation of man. It is evident that each divine Person within the Godhead takes on a different office or role. It is a pity that we too cannot learn the character and humility of God.

Jesus said.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Joh 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God

The Pharisees understood that Jesus was claiming deity and equality with God, that is why they tried to stone Him.

Jesus could have told them that they misunderstood Him, but He didn't. Jesus knew that the Pharisees understood His assertion of deity and did not correct them.

Jesus could have said “Listen fellas, you misunderstood me. I was not blaspheming by claiming to be God.” But Jesus did not correct them, thus confirming His deity to them.

Jn 1:1 says, “and the word was God”, refer
ring to Jesus.

The Father would maintain the head position and He would become the central One to pray to. He does not minister to us in the direct way of the Son and Holy Spirit. He would not have the central focus to save mankind and to eventually be as highly exalted as the Saviour. He is self effacing in this respect.

Each member of the Godhead took on a position that was selfless to the extreme and thus revealing the character of God.

Jesus said
Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

We can stand in awe of the great love, humility and even servanthood of the Godhead.

The apostle Paul understood just who Jesus was when he wrote the following

1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Paul had studied the scriptures that testified of Christ.

Deu 32:3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
Psa 78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.

That is why Paul said

1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ

We sometimes see statements like

1 Pet. 1:3, RS: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ!”

John 5:26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,

This is also in the context of Christ mission as Messiah.
In these instances Jesus was either encumbered with humanity or within the context of Him being the Messiah. Don’t forget that Christ is still ministering for us right now as our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary. So His mission as Messiah and High Priest is still continuing.

Thus, Jesus' office as Messiah and Mediator will cease in time, but not His Godhood, since Scripture teaches that He will be “all in all” just as His Father is.(Colossians 3:11)

MICAH 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, {though} thou be little among the thousands of Judah, {yet} out of thee shall he come forth unto me {that is} to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth {have been} from of old, from everlasting.

JOHN 5:23 That all {men} should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father.

JOHN 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

*TITUS 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
+ACTS 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

*ISAIAH 43:11 I, {even} I, {am} the Lord(Jehovah); and beside me {there is} no saviour.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

PHILIPPIANS 2:5-6 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

TITUS 2:13 awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;

Good post.

41 scriptures in one exegesis.

Hi w,
Quoting 41 scriptures to reach a false conclusion that God is other than He told us is unhelpful.

May 16, 2007 at 12:57 pm#52332

Cult Buster

Participant

Marthinus

Quote

I agree with jou fully that Jesus Christ is the creator in the context of John 1:1-18. You mention Jn 1:1 says, “and the word was God…” Yea this is a stumbling block for many (Jehovas witnesses etc) but let us look at it in depth and in context with rest of the Gospel of John. I used as reference the works of F.F.Bruce.

In the creation narrative at the beginning of Genesis we read repeatedly that 'God said…..and it was so' This can be expressed in other terms, as in Ps 33.6, 'By the word of the LORD the heavens were made'. When this form of language is used , the way is open to personify 'the word of the LORD' and treat it as his agent or messenger.

The Bible tells us clearly that only God was involved in creation.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

The Bible makes it clear that all three Persons of the Godhead were involved in creation. This includes Christ (Jehovah) and Jehovah the Holy Spirit.

Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
(Col 1:16-17)

Christ was the principal Person within the Godhead responsible for creation.

“All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.”
(John 1:3)

“You, Lord, have laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of Your hands.”
(Heb 1:10)

– – “By the Word of God were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.”
(Psa 33:6)

Who was this Word of God, the Creator?

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

The Word of God is Jesus. Jesus is Jehovah God!

– – “A Prayer of Moses, the man of God. Lord, You have been our dwelling-place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting You are God. Psalm 90:2”

Jehovah alone created the universe.
See the following.

Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, am the LORD (Jehovah) that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Yes, Jehovah created everything by Himself. God did not use angels or other instrumentalities or agents outside of the Godhead. It's very clear.

(God)
Job 9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.

Heb 3:4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

The above verses qualify that only God by Himself created the universe. Jesus is the Creator God Jehovah.

The fact is that only Jehovah God was involved in creation. Christ was the Creator so therefore He is Jehovah God. This is consistent with a multitude of scripture that establishes the deity of Christ.

The universe was made for and by Jesus our Jehovah God, and through His creative power.

Let us take a closer look at John chapter one.

John 1:1 in a literal translation reads thus: “In beginning was the word, and the word was with the God, and God was the word.”

Notice that it says “God was the word.” This is the actual word for word translation. It is not saying that “a god was the word.” Let me break it down into three statements.

“In beginning was the word…”
(en arche en ho logos)

“and the word was with the God…”
(kai ho logos en pros ton theon)

“and God was the word.”
(kai theos en ho logos)

— Properly translated as “and the Word was God.”

So that there is no confusion as to whom this God is that is called the Word. See V14. It is Jesus our Jehovah God.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

Refering obviously to Jesus who in V2 is described as God.

May 16, 2007 at 1:18 pm#52334

Cult Buster

Participant

Marthinus

Quote

Can you explain 1Corinthians 15:27-28 I Quote verse 28 'And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. Also read the New American Standard version quite interesting. However I prefer to use the KJV though.

These verses and others have been utilized historically by Arians (of whom Jehovah's Witnesses are a revival), to try to “prove” that Jesus is lesser than the Father and therefore not God in the flesh.

Upon closer inspection, however, a clearer picture emerges.
See the following.

Christ subjected Himself to the Father in order to undertake His role as the Incarnate Son and Mediator between God and man (1 Tim 2:5).

Similarly, one might say that “the President of the United States is a greater man than I am,” but this would not mean he was necessarily a better man. In any event, he is still a man like us.

Since Jesus is still God, even while “humbling” Himself (Phil 2:8), Scripture also indicates that the Father is, in a sense, “subject” to the Son:

JOHN 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew {it} unto you.
JOHN 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give {it} you.

When the Father is called the “head” of the Son (1 Cor 11:3), this also does not entail any lessening of the equality between the Son and the Father.

The Bible also talks about wives being subject to their husbands (1 Pet 3:1,5), even while the two are equals (Gal 3:28, Eph 5:21-22), and indeed, “one flesh” (Mt 19:5-6).

Likewise, one Person of the Godhead (Jesus) can be in subjection to another Person (during His human incarnation and Messiahship) and yet remain God in essence and substance (Phil 2:6-8).

Likewise, in 1 Cor 15:28, the subjection spoken of is that of the Son as incarnate, not the Son as Son in essence. While this verse tells us that God will be “all in all,”

Colossians 3:11 tells us that “. . . Christ {is} all, and in all.”

Is 1:18

Quote

a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all. (Colossians 3:11, cf. Eph. 1:23)

The grammar that was used of “God” in 1 Corinthians was also used of “Christ” in Colossians. I really like what C. H. Spurgeon wrote about this verse – “for Christ is not almost all, but all in all.” (source). Indeed Christ is all. Amen to that

Thus, Jesus' office as Messiah and Mediator will cease in time, but not His Godhood, since Scripture teaches that He will be “all in all” just as the Father is.

Jesus is “all in all” Jehovah God

May 16, 2007 at 4:13 pm#52340

marthinus

Participant

Hi CultB
Just to clear things up I dont believe what the Arians and Jehova Witnesses believe. I do not believe that Jesus was a created being. My Belief is based on what I see and read in scripture, and I ask myself Why did Jesus not just say it in clear unambigous terms that he is God in the same clear way that he said that he was the Son. Why did he not explain the God Head or trinity in clear language to his disciples he would have known that one day there would be people like us debating that very issue and it is not just us, but it has happened through the ages, people burned on the stake because of this. Why is it so hard when it it actually so clear.

marthinus

May 17, 2007 at 9:17 am#52385

Cult Buster

Participant

Hi Marthinus,

Perhaps God wants us to get into His Word and search for truth.
Those who search with their whole heart will find it. Those who are looking for hooks to hang their doubts will find them. There also are those who intentionally misuse scripture to try to prove error because they don't love the truth.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The Word of God tests our motives and intentions.

Consider also the following:

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Mat 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
Mat 13:45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
Mat 13:46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.

CB.

May 17, 2007 at 9:38 am#52387

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (t8 @ May 10 2007,04:49)

Quote (t8 @ May 07 2007,18:47)

Quote (t8 @ April 23 2007,16:20)

Quote (Cult Buster @ April 17 2007,19:20)

Hi t8. We could argue over Bible translations or play word games, but the scripture tells us that only God was involved in creation.

Hi CultB.

So like I said, you do not believe that God made all things THROUGH Christ. Is that correct?

Hi CultB.

So like I said, you do not believe that God made all things THROUGH Christ. Is that correct?

Hi CultB.

So like I said, you do not believe that God made all things THROUGH Christ. Is that correct?

A simple yes and no, so I know where you stand.

Thanks.

Hi CultB.

So like I said, you do not believe that God made all things THROUGH Christ. Is that correct?

A simple yes and no, so I know where you stand.

Thanks.

May 17, 2007 at 9:44 am#52388

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (marthinus @ May 17 2007,23:13)

marthinus

Hi marthinus .

I like your answer.

Carnal men like to label you and they will call you whatever category their carnal mind can comprehend. Also carnality cannot grasp the things of the Spirit.

Such people try to find out if you are a follower of Paul, Apollos, Arius, Athanasius, Donald Duck, or whoever.

It is true what you say. We should believe what is written. When you do that and men accuse you, then they are simply pointing the finger at the one who inspired the writing that you believe.

May 17, 2007 at 10:34 am#52390

NickHassan

Participant

Quote (Cult Buster @ May 17 2007,21:17)

Hi Marthinus,

The Word of God tests our motives and intentions.

Consider also the following:

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

CB.

Hi CB,
You want the approval of God?
Then abide in the Word of God.

May 20, 2007 at 3:05 pm#52696

Cult Buster

Participant

Quote

Hi CultB.

So like I said, you do not believe that God made all things THROUGH Christ. Is that correct?

A simple yes and no, so I know where you stand.

Thanks.

t8. I have answer your question twice before and you still play word games because that is all you have available to you.

The Bible tells us clearly that only God was involved in creation. The scripture tells us that all things were created by Jesus so creation happened through the works of His hands.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

The Bible makes it clear that all three Persons of the Godhead were involved in creation. This includes Christ (Jehovah) and Jehovah the Holy Spirit.

Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

Christ was the principal Person within the Godhead responsible for creation.

“All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.”

“You, Lord, have laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of Your hands.”
(Heb 1:10)

– – “By the Word of God were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.”
(Psa 33:6)

Who was this Word of God, the Creator?

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

The Word of God is Jesus. Jesus is Jehovah God!

Jehovah alone created the universe.
See the following.

Yes, Jehovah created everything by Himself. God did not use angels or other instrumentalities or agents outside of the Godhead. It's very clear.

(God)
Job 9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.

Heb 3:4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

The above verses qualify that only God by Himself created the universe. Jesus is the Creator God Jehovah.

The universe was made for and by Jesus our Jehovah God, and through His creative power.

Let us take a closer look at John chapter one.

John 1:1 in a literal translation reads thus: “In beginning was the word, and the word was with the God, and God was the word.”

Notice that it says “God was the word.” This is the actual word for word translation. It is not saying that “a god was the word.” Let me break it down into three statements.

“In beginning was the word…”
(en arche en ho logos)

“and the word was with the God…”
(kai ho logos en pros ton theon)

“and God was the word.”
(kai theos en ho logos)

— Properly translated as “and the Word was God.”

So that there is no confusion as to whom this God is that is called the Word. See V14. It is Jesus our Jehovah God.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

It is clear that Jesus is Jehovah God

Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

May 20, 2007 at 6:26 pm#52700

NickHassan

Participant

Hi CB,
What did God mean when He said in Gen 1
” 26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.”?

Was God alone?
Were not the sons of God with Him?
Was God speaking only to Himself?
If God was alone and speaking to Himself where else does God speak of Himself as an US?

May 21, 2007 at 12:56 pm#52781

Cult Buster

Participant

Nick.

Quote

Nick. You have just identified the Godhead. The “Us” and the “Our” which are plural pronouns, refer to the Godhead.

The Bible tells us clearly that only God participated in creation. The scripture tells us that all things were created by Jesus so creation happened through the works of His hands.