Home Christian Writings Is Hell eternal? Page 29

Is Hell eternal? (Page 29)

Hell Fire

Part 01 – Is Hell eternal?
Part 02 – Scriptures used to support an eternal Hell
Part 03 – New Testament scriptures that dispel an eternal Hell
Part 04 – Old Testament scriptures that dispel an eternal Hell
Part 05 – Other resources about Hell

This page will let scripture answer the most common questions on this topic. Following that, we will look at scriptures that are used to support the idea of an eternal Hell to get a balanced view. The last two pages will take a more substantial look at scriptures that talk about the wicked and their fate.

Will the wicked perish?

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

2 Peter 2:12
But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

In order to understand the word ‘perish’, how is this word used in other biblical topics?

Hebrews 1:10-12
10 He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end.

Colossians 2:21-22 21
21 Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”?
22 These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings.

Will the wicked be destroyed?

Matthew 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

Philippians 3:19
Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power

How is the word ‘destruction’ used in other biblical topics?

1 Corinthians 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

How will the wicked be destroyed?

2 Peter 3:7
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Luke 17:28-30
28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed.

The wicked are cast into hell, but isn’t Hell eternal?

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hell were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Revelation 21:8
“But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.“

So there will be no eternal suffering in hell?

Romans 6:23
“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord”

Revelation 21:4
He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

So the wicked will cease to exist?

Psalms 104:35
“Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.”

Psalms 37:10
“For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.”

Adam came to life when he became a living soul, but can a man lose his soul?

Mark 8:36
What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul?

1 Peter 1:9
for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

But isn’t the human soul immortal?

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in Hell.

Genesis 3:21-24
22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

Are you sure that the wicked will be completely consumed or burned up though?

Psalms 37:20
“But the wicked will perish: Though the Lord’s enemies are like the flowers of the field, they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.”

Malachi 4:1
“For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.”

Does God want to destroy the wicked?

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn from your evil ways!

2 Peter 3:9
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

Will sin ever happen again once all the wicked are destroyed?

1 John 3:9
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Luke 20:35-36
But those who are considered worthy to share in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage. In fact, they can no longer die, because they are like the angels. And since they are sons of the resurrection, they are sons of God.

We know that sin causes death and we will no longer die because sin has been dealt with.

1 Corinthians 15:54-55
54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” 55 “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?”

When will the wicked be completely destroyed?

Matthew 13:40
“As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world/age.“

2 Peter 3:10.
“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”

Okay so wicked men will be destroyed along with the old creation, but what about Satan?

Hebrews 2:14
“Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;“

Ezekiel 28:18
“Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.”

The last verse may be referring to a man instead of Satan, however we know that the Devil will be destroyed from the previous verse above.

After reading this page you may argue that I have given scripture, but not all of it. There are of course other verses that seem to teach an eternal hell or eternal suffering for the wicked. The next page will cover these scriptures to provide a balanced view. The last two pages in this study will list the most prominent verses in the Bible that teach that the wicked will be destroyed, perish, and die. There will be many more verses than quoted on this page and they are divided into Old and New Testament verses. These pages will be useful if you wish to study in more depth what scripture says about the fate of the wicked.

Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 561 through 580 (of 730 total)
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  • October 28, 2016 at 1:01 pm#817687
    terraricca
    Participant

    Brian

    the first resurrection is for those that have washed their lives into the blood of Christ and only those will enter the sabbath of Christ

    the second resurrection that comes after the sabbath /1000years are over ,will bring all other people forth for the judgment by the message of Jesus Christ and those that would reject that redemption will go into everlasting hell or permanent rejection by God,

    October 28, 2016 at 1:22 pm#817688
    Brian
    Participant

    Terraricca,

    Then anytime I mention hell, especially in my questions to you, I want you to assume I’m talking about the hell that comes after the second resurrection and judgment, okay?

    So now, go back to my questions I asked you about Jesus’ parable about the king who threw the man in the dungeon for not forgiving others their debt. Answer those questions again, but when they mention hell, assume I’m talking about the hell that comes after the second resurrection and judgment. If you’ll do that, then I can respond again.

    –Brian

    October 28, 2016 at 2:10 pm#817689
    terraricca
    Participant

    Brian

    you have to understand the parable within Jesus all teachings ,remember that Jesus quoted two commandants one of God and one for our respond to God’s first commandment for we cannot give anything to God but we can give what he ask to our fellow men and so apply the first ,

    scriptures says that “THE REVENGE BELONG TO GOD ” not to us ,

    the parable is said about something that will occur at judgment day, it can be looked at as a warning to us ,

    we also have to take in account when Jesus said “NOT ALL WHO SAY LORD,LORD WILL ENTER THE KINGDOM ” many are deceived

    October 28, 2016 at 3:49 pm#817690
    Brian
    Participant

    Terraricca,

    When you answer my questions, I’ll respond.

    –Brian

    October 28, 2016 at 4:06 pm#817691
    terraricca
    Participant

    Brian

    I agree on the part that all as to be paid back before getting out of the dungeon,but this to me seem to be a third resurrection ,when the scriptures do not talk about a third one ,

    to me it seem that when the second resurrection is started all people that ever lived on earth will be resurrected for judgment ,through the judgment of Christ ,but those that fail to join Jesus Christ redemption will go to eternal damnation meaning no way to get out of it for this would mean a third resurrection and a new crucifixion for Jesus and this is impossible

    is this answered your question ?

    October 28, 2016 at 4:54 pm#817692
    Brian
    Participant

    Terraricca,

    Thanks for answering my questions. Very few hold your belief on this matter, but I’m aware of your view. I learned it years ago. But one cannot discuss a redemptive hell with someone that has your belief. There’s no point since your view is so far out there. I’m fine discussing this subject with people who hold one of the more traditional views.

    I simply don’t share your view and there’s no way to really discuss this with you. And I’m not interested in trying to disprove your view because you’re entitled to your own views, and it would be inconsiderate of me. I hope your view isn’t correct, because it would mean God is very unloving and cannot get His own will accomplished. That would just be sad. I would not serve a god like that. But hey, I can’t tell you what to believe or what’s correct. There’s very little we know for certain in this life.

    Have a good day.

    –Brian

    October 28, 2016 at 6:37 pm#817693
    terraricca
    Participant

    Brian

    thanks ,but you may understand that all what happen in this world since Adam sin ,God could have prevented it ,but would it have been justice and righteousness ? NO

    God my God is a loving God but a righteous one ,for to sent his only begotten son to go through what he went through for sinning men ,to have a way back to be standing upright again this is true love,

    what I know is true ,what I said to you is true

    but you are the ultimate judge of it before God and his son

    have a great day

    October 29, 2016 at 4:04 am#817694
    Brian
    Participant

    Terraricca,

    I understand where you’re coming from and I respect that. I’ll explain how I view God’s nature, because your last message expresses your view of God’s nature.

    The Bible says, “God is Love.” It never says, “God is Justice.” It does say God is “just,” but that’s describing a component of His nature, not His nature itself. So He is primarily love, and a component of that is justice. So His unconditional love always overrules His justice. This is shown by Jesus dying on the cross to save the entire world. If God were primarily Just in nature and secondarily loving, then He could never have sent Jesus to die on the cross, because that would circumvent justice. Also, God would never have had Paul make the statement twice in the Bible, “All things are permissible, but not all things are beneficial,” if He were primarily a Just God. He would’ve made justice paramount and law paramount above all other things, and there would be no escape from punishment.

    So, because God is unconditionally-loving primarily, according to scripture, there’s no way He would ever let justice override love. It’s not possible if we go off of what the Bible says about His nature.

    Since God is primarily Love, there’s no way He would create us and make us go into this world, against our will, knowing that tons of us will suffer in hell for eternity. That is an incredibly inconsiderate, hateful act with no rhyme or reason except to cause people pain.

    However, if we step back and start taking some pieces of the Bible that tell us about God’s nature, we can start to build an understanding of God that makes more sense.

    1. God’s Will: Peter says that it is God’s will that none perish and that all repent. So we know God’s will.
    2. God’s Desire: The Bible says God does all His pleasure.
    3. God’s Abilities: The Bible says with God, all things are possible.

    So God’s desire is that none perish and all repent (turn from their sinful ways). In other words, that would please Him. And He says He does ALL His pleasure. So that means He’s going to make sure His will/desires are accomplish if possible. And He says ALL THINGS are possible with Him. Therefore, He admitted that He can do anything and everything…which means make His desires/pleasure come true.

    The only logical conclusion one can come to from putting those three statements together is that God must have built the system in which we live to get everyone saved, whether before or after death, through any means necessary. If He does not go to that extreme to save everyone when He said He can do anything and everything, then it means He is not loving. And in fact, it means He’s horribly unloving and hateful and vengeful and inconsiderate. Anyone who has the power to make sure people don’t suffer in hell forever and yet lets them anyway is extremely unloving. Once you understand the psychology of what causes us to sin, you very quickly see how easy it would be for God to use hell to resolve our issues that cause us to sin. I mean, it’s really simple.

    So, if I were God, I’d create the system like that. I’d make sure hell is designed to resolve people’s issues that keep them from accepting God’s help and getting into heaven. Because everyone has free will so I can’t force them to do anything. But if I know exactly how their heart works and exactly how to manipulate their situation to cause their heart to break so they’ll accept me, then I can make sure their issues that cause them to sin get resolved. And that’d mean I did it without ever infringing on their free will. And since the result is that everyone ends up in heaven, then what I’ve done is loving. The Bible says God will restore all of creation. ALL of it. We are created, so we’re part of the creation, which means all of us will be restored. Several verses point to this or say it outright. So if I’m God and I can do anything, I get everyone saved, plain and simple. I’m not as loving as God, and yet I would do that for humanity. So how much more would He do it being that He is far more loving than me? If He lets people suffer hell forever, then I’m more loving than Him, so I don’t think that’s possible.

    That’s the last I’ll post on this subject with you, because that describes enough for you to get an idea of what I’m pretty sure God has done with the creation. I’m sharing this information. I don’t want to push this view on you or anyone else, because I could be wrong. Heck, you could be right–I don’t know. All I know is that there’s a whole lot of logic and common sense and evidence backing the views I just expressed…so they’re worth considering.

    Good talking to you and good luck with your studies. Don’t take it personally if I don’t respond to any more of your posts. It’s nothing against you personally, I just don’t have the time and I feel I’ve sufficiently discussed this topic with you. Also, I don’t like getting sucked into a debate (debates occur when anyone is trying to convince someone else they’re correct and the other side feels they need to defend their beliefs). I don’t care for debates…I just like to discuss things openly with a spirit of learning from everyone involved and no agendas being pushed.

    –Brian

    October 29, 2016 at 12:38 pm#817696
    terraricca
    Participant

    hi Brian

    So, if I were God, I’d create the system like that. I’d make sure hell is designed to resolve people’s issues that keep them from accepting God’s help and getting into heaven. Because everyone has free will so I can’t force them to do anything. But if I know exactly how their heart works and exactly how to manipulate their situation to cause their heart to break so they’ll accept me, then I can make sure their issues that cause them to sin get resolved. And that’d mean I did it without ever infringing on their free will. And since the result is that everyone ends up in heaven, then what I’ve done is loving. The Bible says God will restore all of
    ============================================================================================================================================================

    I would never say the above for read what scriptures says;
    Isa 55:8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
    neither are your ways my ways,”
    declares the LORD.
    Isa 55:9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
    so are my ways higher than your ways
    and my thoughts than your thoughts.

    you say;

    1)God’s Will: Peter says that it is God’s will that none perish and that all repent. So we know God’s will.
    2) God’s Desire: The Bible says God does all His pleasure.
    3) God’s Abilities: The Bible says with God, all things are possible.
    ==================================================================================================================
    1a)
    Ex 18:15 Moses answered him, “Because the people come to me to seek God’s will.
    Mk 3:35 Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.”
    Jn 7:17 If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
    1Pe 2:15 For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men.
    1Pe 3:17 It is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.
    1Pe 4:19 So then, those who suffer according to God’s will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.

    2a)same as #1

    3a)
    Mt 19:26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
    Mk 10:27 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.”

    the key word in those verses are “WITH GOD”

    as for what God as lay down for us is simple ;

    Dt 30:19 This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live
    Pr 18:21 The tongue has the power of life and death,
    and those who love it will eat its fruit.

    take care my friend

    October 30, 2016 at 9:06 am#817697
    942767
    Participant

    Hi Brian:

    You quote the following scripture and question why the Apostle Paul would say that God is the saviour of all men.

    It is true that Jesus has paid the penalty that was due to all of humanity, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God,  and so, he is the saviour of all men in that respect, but not all men will believe the gospel with a repentant heart.  It is from this first death, or spiritual separation from God that all of humanity can be reconciled to God.  through the gospel.  Jesus died in our stead, that judgment has been paid in full, but in the second death, there is no sacrifice for sins, that person will be judged according to the life that he or she lived.  The punishment will be temporary, it will not go on and on forever, but no, it is not a corrective punishment.  It is in the body of Christ, that someone who has been born again learns to overcome sin.  God will correct His children if they want to obey Him.

    Hebrews 10:

    26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

    1Thes1:

    7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

    8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

    9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    October 30, 2016 at 4:34 pm#817698
    Brian
    Participant

    Marty,

    You do realize you’re trying to teach me basic Christian doctrine as if I don’t already know it, right? lol It doesn’t help your case, though. None of it disproves hell being temporary.

    You see, Hebrews 10:26 doesn’t help your case because it doesn’t speak of the timespan of hell being eternal. Also, it says “judgment,” which is something that helps a person. Let’s say I’m a criminal and a judge level’s a “judgment” against me which sends me to jail. The point of jail is to cause me to suffer so that it will deter me from wanting to do wrong again. That’s a helpful thing, not a hurtful thing. It’s corrective. In the Ancient Hebrew, judgment meant to find a problem and remove it so the person, or people, could grow. That’s what the judges of the OT did. They were to remove the problems from the people so the people could flourish. It’s a very simple concept. When hell is described in the NT, it’s generally with the word punishment (the corrective version) or judgment (which is also corrective).

    Same thing goes for the other verses you used: 2 Thes 1:7-9. They don’t help your case. “Vengeance” in verse 8 in the Greek means to vindicate someone by removing their persecutor. So in this context, it’s talking about these people being taken out of the way of the followers of God. Pretty simple concept here. But that doesn’t speak anything about hell’s duration or purpose or type of punishment.

    And when it says “punished with everlasting destruction,” let’s break down all those words into the Greek, as well.

    Punished, in this instance, is “dike” in the Greek, which means to have a judgment leveled against you in court.

    Everlasting, in this instance, is the word “aionios,” which means “of the age,” or “age-bound,” or “a duration of time.” The only times it means “eternal” or “everlasting” is when it’s paired with something we know lasts forever. Hell/judgment doesn’t last forever since it’s corrective according to the words used to describe it. Therefore, “aionios” in this instance has to mean what it normally means, which is “age-bound” or “of the age,” of “a duration of time.”

    Destruction, in this instance, is the Greek word “olethros.” Now pay close attention to the meaning of this one. In the Greek, it means, “For the destruction of the flesh, said of the external ills and troubles by which the lusts of the flesh are subdued and destroyed.” That’s quoted right from the Strongs and the Greek Lexicon. It’s talking about specifically removing the problem, which is the flesh and its desires. It’s not talking about removing the person, because the person is not the problem. The problem is the lusts of the flesh (the person’s ego, that’s the problem). This is talking about the destruction of the lusts of the flesh. It in no way refers to a person and their destruction.

    In other words, when you put that all together, you get: 2 Thess 1:9 – “…who shall have judgment leveled against them by way of age-bound destruction of the lusts of their flesh.” This is describing exactly what the words “judgment” and “punishment” mean–corrective punishment. This is talking about casting these people into hell so the lusts of their flesh can be corrected.

    So the verses you posted actually help my case quite a bit, and hurt yours quite a bit. The problem is that the translators are wording hell in such a way that it sounds like people will be there forever, but that’s not the case at all.

    Like I said before, it does no good to discuss this with you because you refuse to dig deeper than a Strong’s Concordance, because on the surface, with Strong’s, it appears you’re correct and that’s all you wanted–to prove that you were right. All one has to do is dig deeper into a Lexicon and get full Greek explanations for each word and they’ll quickly see that hell is temporary. Since you’re unwilling to do that, there’s no sense in talking to you because it shows you have no interest in discovering the truth. All you care about is being right, so you skip over any information that disproves you. If I had recognized it was you I was talking to, I wouldn’t have even bothered responding to you. And I won’t respond after this post.

    Good luck, Marty.

    Actually, I think I’m done posting on this topic in this forum. So if I don’t respond from here on out, don’t take it personally. I’ve just unsubscribed from the thread.

    October 31, 2016 at 8:54 am#817699
    942767
    Participant

    Hi Brian:

    There is not scripture that states that the second death is for the purpose of correcting those who have not believed and obeyed the gospel. In digging deeper, as you say that I should do, you are adding to God’s Word. If there is no more sacrifice for sins, how are those who have not been saved during their lifetime going to have their sins forgiven?

    Relative to the destruction of the flesh, yes, it can mean that a person is ex-communicated from the church until they repent. Such as:

    1 Corinthians 5King James Version (KJV)

    5 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.

    2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

    3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

    4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

    5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    This person repented and was forgiven during his lifetime, but he had to repent.

    Jesus said the following Matt. 10:

    28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    By common sense, we know that the mortal body goes back to the dust when a person dies with the exception of those who are alive and in the faith at the coming of the Lord for the church. The scripture states that they will be changed without going through a physical death, and so, how do you state that the destruction of the flesh means punishment for the purpose of correcting the lusts of the flesh? As I have stated, it can mean that while a person lives, but after that person dies a physical death, it is too late for that, and it is too late for those who receive the mark of the beast.

    You can teach what you will about this subject, but I do believe that the scriptures do not support what you are teaching.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    November 1, 2016 at 6:18 pm#817714
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    You do realize you’re trying to teach me basic Christian doctrine as if I don’t already know it, right? lol It doesn’t help your case, though. None of it disproves hell being temporary.

    Hell is temporary as it is thrown into the Lake of Fire. But the Second Death is permanent. God does not force those who hate him to live with him forever. He gives them what they want, that is separation from him who gives life. They lose their life.

    November 2, 2016 at 3:04 pm#817721
    terraricca
    Participant

    hell/grave is not the same as the hell of punishment even though they are in a way both a punishment the first being the punishment of Adam disobedience

    while the second one would be for our personally decision to disobey God’s grace ,

    God’s grace as been with us since the beginning lets look at those that benefit from it ; Abel,Enoch,Noah,Abraham,Issac,Jacob, and many more

    many don’t understand the time in which we live in

    November 23, 2016 at 4:48 am#818040
    Brian
    Participant

    <span style=”text-decoration: underline;”>A correction (or addition) to my statement about digging deeper using Strong’s Greek and Hebrew Lexicon</span>

    (I’m not getting pulled back into this conversation, but I did want to correct a statement I made and make a couple more comments since I just saw an incorrect statement or two as the final posts of this thread)

    I was just looking up the word “fear” in the Hebrew lexicon: (I use http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html) I noticed that even the lexicon is incorrect, which means you need to dig a lot deeper than the lexicon. I’ll explain…

    One must look to the actual Hebrew word meanings in the Ancient Hebrew culture if they’re to understand what a word in the Old Testament means, and that’s not found in Strong’s Lexicon, I’m sad to say. It’s a good start, but it can be very misleading.

    Fear, in the Ancient Hebrew, means “The stirrings of the stomach.” The stomach is a major emotional center housing the most nerves in the entire body. It’s why we feel “butterflies” if we’re in love, or awe if we’re meeting someone important, or fear if we’re in a daunting situation. The Ancient Hebrews used “the stirrings of the stomach” (what we exclusively translate to mean “fear” or “respect”) to describe any of the strong emotions a person can have. In a broad sense, the word means strong emotions and isn’t specific to one. So when a translator translates that word, he’s speculating on its meaning if he translates it to mean “fear” or “respect,” which means his own personal beliefs about God come into play while translating. So whatever he believes, he’s about to unknowingly push that believe on the reader if the reader is unaware of that fact. Example:

    “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.”

    I’ve already explained that the grammar of how that verse is written indicates that the fear is God’s fear, not ours because it’s written in a specific way that denotes ownership, just like “the hand of God” or “the face of God,” etc. And as I’ve explained, fear is passionate/strong emotions in the stomach. So had the translator known that and had he not been unknowingly pushing his views on the readers, he would’ve understood the verse should be translated as such:

    “The strong emotions of the Lord are the beginning of wisdom.”

    So the verse is not saying to fear the Lord to gain wisdom because that would go against 1 John 4:18: There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears punishment has not been perfected in love.

    The verse is saying that we must connect with God’s emotions and understand them. The only way to do that is to get in touch with our own emotions and process them while seeking God’s presence in order to feel His emotions. One cannot feel God’s emotions when his own emotions are in the way.

     

    Terrarica,

    There are no verses, when correctly translated, that say the second death is actually permanent, and therefore, that’s speculation. I know you think you know that for sure and you think the translations are correct because they support your doctrines, but it’s truly only speculation on your part and the part of the translators and scholars. You’d understand that if you studied translation with an open mind. It would serve Christians well to take a very humble approach by learning about translation and not assuming they’re correct. As I said a few times in this thread, I’m not saying I’m correct–I’m just pointing out that the Bible doesn’t say what you think it says. Dig deeper. Check out Jeff Benner’s research since he’s pulling from the most up-to-date translation research and he’s a scholar in his own right.

     

    Marty,

    I never said that digging deeper specifically shows that the second death in the Bible is said to be for correcting those who reject God. If I said the Bible explicitly say says that, then I misspoke (but I don’t think I said what you’re claiming I said). What I was conveying is that when hell is described, if one digs deeper, they find that it’s described as correctional and just, not everlasting and vengeful. And when someone puts that together with the other verses I’ve mentioned about God and His will, nature, and power, then one will logically come to the conclusion that the second death must be the final Refiner’s Fire, getting the final residents of hell saved, eventually.

    You said, “If there is no more sacrifice for sins, how are those who have not been saved during their lifetime going to have their sins forgiven?” You’re trying to use the Hebrews 10 against me here, but you’re missing the point of that verse. That verse is saying that a person who doesn’t accept the one sacrifice that covers all sin, then there is no additional sacrifice for sin they can take to be purified…because they’re rejecting the one and only sacrifice for sin–Jesus. But that’s shortsighted if you’re using that to defend hell doctrine. You added “in their lifetime” to that verse. But that verse doesn’t say “in their lifetime.” So in not digging deeper, you’ve added to God’s word to help your doctrine. What I keep trying to get you to do is to read exactly what the verses in the Bible say and stop adding to them like you just did. The Bible doesn’t say we’re restricted to salvation only in this lifetime. In fact, it says quite the opposite. It says Jesus saved those in prison from the time of the Flood. Those people were stuck in the afterlife and had not accepted Jesus, and yet Jesus saved them after death. So to assume that salvation is strictly for the living is shortsighted and not in the Bible. It could possibly be in certain translations, but not that I’m aware of. Read Young’s Literal Translation of 1862 sometime–you can’t find hell or the idea of eternal punishment anywhere in it from cover to cover. Why? Because it’s a literal translation, and when it’s literal to the original language, hell being eternal doesn’t exist and punishment is corrective after death. There are several translations that have no mention of hell or eternal punishment because the translators are more well studied in Ancient Hebrew and Greek than those who translated the majority of our modern translations. If you saw the inept training that our translators get, you’d feel gypped. It’s sad how little and insufficient the training is for translators. At least scholars have some decent training when they do translations, but they’re still lacking quite a bit more training and they can’t get away from their worldview biases or the prophesors’ biases. It’s impossible. Everyone translates with a bias, even those putting out translations like Young Literal Translation. It’s impossible to get away from bias (aka brainwashing). Everyone is brainwashed with biases due to how they’re raised, me included. When you understand human development, you understand that. We’re only as good as the information we’ve learned and experienced growing up…and we’re completely restricted by the information we don’t know. And because of that, no one is going to have all of the truth in this life. But people sure like to think they do.

    Once again, what I’m conveying is that the Bible translations you’re reading don’t say what you think they say, and if you’d dig deeper instead of blindly trusting the translations and preachers, then you’d see what I’m talking about. Well, if I’m being honest here, psychology and human behavior say you wouldn’t see what I’m talking about because it’s one of the hardest things to change a person’s beliefs and for a person to say, “I was wrong.” Brianwashing is extremely difficult to correct and often takes a lot of humility which usually comes from a lot of pain in life. And if not in life, in the afterlife (no, I’m not saying you’re going to hell). I’m saying that Jesus says everyone will be salted with fire, including you and me. And when we’ve had enough of just the right emotional pain in this life or the next, we’ll be humbled and see just how arrogant we were. It’s arrogant of me to even have this conversation with you, even though I’m saying, “I’m not saying I’m right,” and “I could be wrong.” Sure, those are humble words, but I guarantee you if I were actually humble, I wouldn’t be talking to you right now at all or trying to convince you of anything. And that’s why I ask God every day to humble me no matter how much it hurts…it’s about the most productive thing a person can pray, and I speak from experience when I say it really does hurt like hell. lol

    When it comes down to it, the difference between what I’m saying and everyone else in this thread is saying amounts to the following:

    I’m saying God is unconditionally loving, infinitely wise, infinitely powerful, and completely just

    You’re saying that God is not unconditionally loving and not wise and powerful enough to get everyone saved and not just, so He created a reality where a whole hell of a lot of people (created against their will) would suffer forever in hell for no good reason except maybe to scare the crap out of others so they’ll accept Jesus (which explicitly goes against what the Bible says about not fearing).

    That’s what this boils down to and a hard heart cannot see that reality. I know because I was once like that myself, and until I’d been humbled enough by emotional pain through emotional work (and partly due to a lot of research), I couldn’t see that reality. I’m still not humble, but I’m at least more humble than I used to be, so that’s good. Open-mindedness is a byproduct of humbleness, which is why it changed me.

    I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything. That’s not my place because I could be wrong just like anyone could be wrong about what they believe. I’m just sharing information so that maybe someone will come across it and say, “You know, that sounds interesting. Maybe I should dig deeper.” If anything, I’m attempting to influence people to dig deeper to find answers, especially when it comes to their emotions. Like the verse says, that’s the beginning of wisdom.

    As I said before, don’t take it personally if I don’t respond because I don’t plan to post on this thread again and I’m not getting email alerts when someone posts in it. Good luck with your studies.

    November 23, 2016 at 5:40 am#818041
    terraricca
    Participant

    hi Brian

     

    Terrarica,

    There are no verses, when correctly translated, that say the second death is actually permanent, and therefore, that’s speculation. I know you think you know that for sure and you think the translations are correct because they support your doctrines, but it’s truly only speculation on your part and the part of the translators and scholars. You’d understand that if you studied translation with an open mind. It would serve Christians well to take a very humble approach by learning about translation and not assuming they’re correct. As I said a few times in this thread, I’m not saying I’m correct–I’m just pointing out that the Bible doesn’t say what you think it says. Dig deeper. Check out Jeff Benner’s research since he’s pulling from the most up-to-date translation research and he’s a scholar in his own right.

    ======================================================================

    you seem to judge God’s word through men spirit ,I do not I use God’s word from Genesis through revelation and understand his way not mine or any other man views ,so you will never agree with God’s view for you like men’s view better ,

    you for those reasons ignore all the scriptures I give you ,you ignore God’s purpose for his creation ,

    but you like to discredit God in favor of men , we have nothing in common ,for I will never give glory to any man unless he glorify God and his son

    ‘LET GOD BE FOUND TRUE AND ALL MEN LIARS ”  so the truth is with  God and all the liars are with men , only one way is the truth ,God’s way

    June 24, 2017 at 11:19 am#819654
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Eternal Life after death, or Eternal death after life: which will you choose?

    Some people think the choice is eternal life in Heaven or Hell, but that is not scriptural.

    The reality is this. Yes we can have eternal life in the Kingdom of God, this is in fact the promise of God. But the wicked will not have eternal life in Hell. It is written that they lose their soul and are destroyed. They suffer eternal destruction and are said to perish. They will be no more and this judgement is eternal. They will never have life again as that is only for the righteous.

    Scripture also says that Hell is cast into the Lake of Fire and this judgement fire destroys not only the wicked, but is the same fire that renews the Earth. This terrible fire is how God will make a new Heaven and a new Earth. When this happens, there will be NO sin, suffering, crying, or pain in existence. ALL things will be new and perfect because God is merciful and his plan is good. God has promised this.

    June 28, 2017 at 3:23 am#819668
    Jodi
    Participant

    Our God is a consuming fire!

    Zechariah 13:8 “It will come about in all the land”, declares the Lord, “that two parts in it will be cut off and perish; But the third will be left in it. “And I will bring the third part through the fire, refine them as silver is refined, and test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, and I will answer them; I will say, ‘They are My people,’ and they will say, ‘the LORD is my God.'”

    If our current world and its history is God’s best effort to save men, what a pathetic God we would have!

    God BRINGS man to righteousness. If He can bring one man, He can bring them all, to believe otherwise is self righteous.

    God’s plan we know consists of two resurrections 1,000 years apart. The first is for the righteous, for those that are already refined, and their perfection will be official upon immortality as the flesh will no longer be weak. These will work and learn how to create a society that glorifies and honors our Creator. A thousand years later will come the second resurrection, people will be resurrected in their weak flesh, for we are told that our great adversary will be set loose once again. What is the point of the thousand years? What is the point of a second resurrection? Were the firstfruits also the last? Do they live for a thousand years to set up a kingdom for themselves to then sit back and watch people be raised just to be judged and sent back to the grave? Nonsense!

    God is calling leaders to establish His kingdom. It is not man’s spirit that causes us to except the fruits of God’s Spirit, and some either take it or leave it. Did God not purposely cast blindness and keep some in their ignorance? When the “influence” by the Creator, when chosen to be given for final refinement, is used unto His created, it is like a fly attracted to light. Is God not what He says He Is? Is He not as the scripture states, that He is longsuffering towards us, not willing that any should perish, but all come into repentance?

    Paul tells us that where sin abounded, grace did much MORE abound. This is only true for some? That idea is arrogant! The very purpose of His plan is to keep arrogance away from His firstfruits, this way we may see His work and His righteousness working in us through the power of His Spirit and be able to compare it to the spirit of man. Did God not harden Pharoahs heart to show His own power and glory? There are firstfruits, and then there will be God reconciling ALL. He will be able to bring ALL in due time, according to His plan, into repentance and refinement and all will be glorified in the body of Christ. There is an order, there is a purpose to that order. Read Romans 11.

    Sin and it’s wickedness will be destroyed, the liar, the murderer, the greedy…etc., they will be destroyed because every man will be refined through God’s fire.

    The firstfruits will live a thousand years preparing to help set the rest of creation free so that GOD WILL BE ALL IN ALL!

    June 28, 2017 at 9:41 pm#819686
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Did God not harden Pharoahs heart to show His own power and glory?

    I hear Atheists and those who Believe in God but not free-will bring this one up time and time again. I usually just say to them that Pharaoh did not have a heart after God and that God would never harden a man’s heart toward him if that man had a heart for God. I then usually end with saying that God does or allows all things, we just choose. God hardened his heart because he probably refused to hear Moses and God. God wouldn’t have done it if Pharaoh was open to God and motivated by love. God knows the motives and desires of our hear. God saw Pharaoh’s heart and acted accordingly is my view.

    June 28, 2017 at 9:48 pm#819687
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I see you believe that no one will perish but all will come to eternal life. But how does that compare to these verses for example:

    1. I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.
    2. But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
    3. Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
    4. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
      They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power
    5. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

    Surely if a man rejects the eternal God who gives life, then he rejects eternal life? And if a man chooses to reject God, then are you saying that he doesn’t respect that and grinds away at them till they can no longer will to reject him. The soul needs the spirit to have life. If the spirit goes back to God and the soul rejects God, then why allow that soul to live eternally with a perfect God? I believe that God will be in harmony with all, not because he makes all choose him in the end, but because those that reject him are removed leaving only the righteous.

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