Who is this Jesus?

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March 4, 2004 at 2:27 am#3638

ringo111

Participant

Hi t8, my bro- i write cause i care for you.

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I don't feel like you are giving me a fair hearing on this one.

*I think I have been fair, Anyones only cheating themselves if they dont look at anything from both sides- and weigh accordingly.

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I explained before that wisdom is a quality and is referred to as she.

*This is a main point which I believe you are mistaken-

Because there are scriptures which proove your statment about Wisdom wrong-

*For She Speaks- acts- Feels

For Jesus testifies She takes action- and that He is with John a child of wisdom.

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When wisdom was given birth, he was known as a he/man to give the understanding that we are talking of a person. So this point should explain how I understand your quote above. In other words wisdom is a quality from God that we and even Christ should have. We also have to remember that Christ came to this earth as a man who emptied himself of his former glory to be like us in every way except sin.

This did not answer my point- Ill explain why in the next point.

You should answer my other points about Jesus saying that he and John are children of wisdom. Or at least that wisdom is a her and has children. Remembering that anyone who is like Sarah is her child.

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Your second point about Wisdom not being hung on a tree is true, but it also doesn't say that Way, Truth, Life will hang on a tree either, so I feel it is irrelevant. These qualities are what Jesus is in identity and we know that Jesus hung on a tree for us and yet is still the Truth and the Life, even though it doesn't say that the Life will hang on a tree.

I said this as a part answer. Because you said- Wisdom has the same things as Jesus-

*which is not true- Jesus Shared the some of the same atributes.

*But that is because he – like John the baptist- was a child of wisdom.

That statment of mine , was not my main point- I stated my main points at the bottom of my post- That were backed up in my post.

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So Ringo I feel that in order to test a teaching you need to first of all understand the teaching and then you need to give it a fair go using scripture and the Spirit of God to guide you. But if you make arguments even accusations that do not change what I have said one bit, I can only come to 2 conclusions about that.

*It is not an accusation that there are inconsistancies and contradictions- that come from what seems you hold as truth.

*But is a fact, Its an obvious contradiction- to say Jesus is wisdom- yet Jesus calls wisdom his mother.

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1) You have a pre-defined belief about who Wisdom (she) is and this blocks you from seeing what I am saying. Like the Trintarian who's predefined belief in a triune God blinds him from seeing that there is one God, or

No , actually i hadn't formed an idea, before I read your statement and searched it out- then Pm'd you. Or what idea i had i through out and searched the scripture- and found that –

1) Wisdom is something all beings including GoD posses-

*discovered this while searching. Because God says by his own hands he created everything. So knowing this- It is by his own knowledge (wisdom) that he made things- and not by the Spirit Wisdom- Which was given to Jesus aswell as other spirits.

2) GoD created a Spirit called Wisdom.

*She was born – God sent her(Wisdom) to Jesus as well as other spirits.

Isaiah 11:2
The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD –

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2) You truly do not understand what I am saying.

*You say that wisdom was Jesus at the beginning- You mistakenly believe that being Born does not mean being created- Which is a contradiction-

Because, we are Born once into existance- Then we Born into the spirit- And Given birth in our new bodies at the end-

The angels were Born- You dont have to be born of a woman to be a child- John the baptist says-
“Out of the rocks GoD can raise up children for Abraham”

This Goes into my other point which I PM'd you about.
“Jesus was created” Maybe we can move from this debate to that one- Before we continue.

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If you do indeed have a predefined belief (which is ok, so long as it doesn't blind you), then lets here it. But I am willing to also give you the benefit of the doubt and consider that you do not understand what I am saying, so I will spell it out in simple terms so that there is no mistake.

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1) Wisdom as Christ is not a foundational teaching and therefore I believe that we can have an opinion here and remain in unity if we differ.

Yeah, tops.

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2) Jesus Christ as the Logos was the first to come forth from God. He is the image of God and expresses the fullness of God in his being, but is not that God that he expresses. Rather he is his image.

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3) Wisdom is a quality of God and Jesus personifes that quality just as he personifies all God's qualities. Jesus is divine in nature. So wisdom defines Christ, just as power and truth do.

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4) The Logos was with God in the beginning and came from God before there was anything created.

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5) Wisdom wa
s the first of God's works and I personally think that the Logos, the Christ, the Son, the only begotten, the Truth, the Way and the Life are all the same person, namely Jesus of Nazareth called the Christ.

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He was before Abraham and he was before all created things.

As the scripture says, no one can see God, but the only begotten at his side is the only one who can declare him. So if we see wisdom it is first and primarliy through Christ that we see this quality and in creation second.

We see all God's qualities in Jesus person. So I feel all that you said in your last post doesn't challenge what I have said at all and therefeore I do not need to take each your points one at a time and counter them.

Of course I am teachable and willing to change if truth is presented to me, please do not get me wrong. I am so willing to change and to align myself with truth, after all if I do not, then I am the one who will lose. I will even go as far as apologising to all I have given false teaching to, in order that all the works that such a teaching sows will be undone if possible. I put truth before myself, I am a servant of truth. But in order for me to do this, you have to convince me and your argument so far has missed the target with what I have said, so of course I have no reason yet to believe otherwise. Of course all teachers should guard their doctrine closely as teachers will be judged more severly than others because teachers can open doors or place stumbling blocks with their words.

Anyway to conclude this post I have decided to include the words of Tertullian who wrote this following quote in the 200s and Tatian who wrote 165 A.D. You will notice the references to Logos and Wisdom. I read this after my last post to you and it basically says what I am saying. So maybe they can say it better than me.

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Tertillian
The object of our worship is the One God, He who by His commanding Word, His arranging Wisdom, His Mighty Power, brought forth out of nothing the entire substance of our world, with all its array of elements, bodies, spirits, for the glory of His majesty, whence also the Greeks have given it the name of kosmos. (Apology, 17).

*This means by GoD's own knowlegde(Wisdom) – His own Hands (Mighty Power).

*You see it lists spirits as a part of the creation.

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For from the first He sent messengers into the world, men whose spotless righteousness made them worthy to know the Most High, and to reveal Him… that they might proclaim There is one God only who made all things. (Apology, 18).

*This goes against people who claim “noone is rightous” It doesnt Back your claim that Jesus is wisdom.

*One GoD who made all things- yups – by his own hands.

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Accordingly, he appeared among us, whose coming to renew and illuminate man's nature was foreproclaimed by God, mean Christ, the Son of God. And so the Supreme Head and Master of this grace and discipline, the Enlightener and Trainer of humanity, God's own Son, was announced among us. (Apology, 21).

* Acts 3:13
The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus.

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Christ… the Power of God, and the Spirit of God, as the Word, the Reason, the Wisdom, and the Son of God. (Apology, 23).

*In the text – What is before “Christ….” and after “christ….” ?

*Power of God, Spirit of god, the word, the wisdom- And the Son of GoD

*plain and simple

*But if its triing to say the christ is all those things- is Wrong- Jesus Testifies- about wisdom- that he and John are her children

*These sources are not to be counted as reliable as the bible- Even the bible is not without changed scripture which has been missinterpreted or added. This is why you take the bulk of scripture- and test every little comment against other scripture to get an idea of its truethfullness.

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Tatian
God was in the beginning, but the beginning, we have been taught, is the power of the Word. (*1*) For the Lord of the universe, who is Himself the necessary basis of all being, inasmuch as no creature was yet in existence, was alone, but inasmuch as He was all powerful, Himself the necessary ground of things visible and invisible, with Him were all things; with Him, by Word-power, the Word himself also, who was in Him, subsists. And by His simple will the Word sprang forth, and the Word, not coming forth in vain, became the firstbegotten work of the Father . (*2*)Him [the Word] we know to be the Beginning of the world (cf. Rev. 3:14). But He came into being by participation, not by cutting off, for what is cut off is separated from the original substance, but that which comes by participation, making its choice of function, does not render him deficient from whom it is taken. For just as from one torch many fires are lighted, but the light of the first torch is not lessened by the kindling of many torches,(*3*) so the Word, coming forth from the Word-Power of the Father, has not divested of the Word-Power Him who begat Him. I myself, for instance, speak [words], and you hear, yet, certainly, I who converse do not become destitute of my word, by the transmission of speech, but by the utterance of my voice I endeavour to reduce to order the unarranged matter in your minds. And as the Word begotten in the beginning, begat in turn our world, having first created for himself the necessary matter, (*4*) so also I, in imitation of the Word, being begotten again, and having become possessed of the truth, am trying to reduce to order the confused matter which is kindred with myself. (*5*)For matter is not, like God, without beginning, nor, as having no beginning, is of equal power with God, it is begotten, and not produced by any other being, but brought into existence by the Framer of all things alone (Address to the Greeks, 5).

*Ok- Ill put Numbers in where these points are to go in the above writing

(*1*)

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For the Lord of the universe, who is Himself the necessary basis of all being, inasmuch as no creature was yet in existence, was alone

*You see God alone created ev
erything- Created “the word” by his own “word-Power”

*So what if the word was the First creation- It never says Jesus was the first of all existance- It just says that GoD says to him, today you are my SoN , and he is given SoNship- and Given to be Lord and Christ-

*Acts 2:36
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

(*2*)Who added in the Rev reference??? as it is not what the writer was saying-

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Him [the Word] we know to be the Beginning of the world (cf. Rev. 3:14).

*Rev 3:14 Does not say this at all!!!

Revelation 3
14″To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.

*But it says – “the ruler of GoD's creation”- This was not his default position- But a gained one- GoD chose him-
“God has made this Servant Jesus Both Christ and lord”

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(*3*)

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so the Word, coming forth from the Word-Power of the Father, has not divested of the Word-Power Him who begat Him

*You see he understands GoD's word as “Word-Power” and the word being begotten of GoD by his own “word-Power”

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(*4*)

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so also I, in imitation of the Word, being begotten again, and having become possessed of the truth, am trying to reduce to order the confused matter which is kindred with myself.

*The writer is Imitating the word, by being begotten.

(*5*)

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For matter is not, like God, without beginning, nor, as having no beginning, is of equal power with God, it is begotten, and not produced by any other being, but brought into existence by the Framer of all things alone

*Why dont you take His word for it???

*To understand it easier It should be read

*Take out the poor confusing english translation- update it, and it reads much clearer.

-For matter is not like GoD, for GoD is without Beginning. Nor does matter have no beggining, Nor is Matter of equal power to GoD. Matter is begotten, and is not produced by any other being, But brought into existance by the framer of all things alone-

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For the heavenly Word, Spirit emanating from the Father and a Word of the Word-Power, in imitation of the Father who begat him made man an image of immortality, so that, as incorruption is with God, in like manner, man, sharing in a part of God, might have the immortal principle also. The Word, too, before the creation of men, was the Framer of angels.

*God is the framer- Not the word- You Havnt understood the complex wording. And even if you Dont He layed basic principles like this- God made everything. And if you Take this writing to mean that God is not the Framer- than it is not “the word” you are calling a framer. But you are calling matter- the framer.

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*You see , matter is not like GoD, is not of equal power to GoD and is Brought inot existance by the framer who is GoD.

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This imortal principle as you say, is not an immortal principle.

Ecclesiastes 3:11
He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men

Plus those who do not Hear , and obey GoD's Commands – are tormented forever for eternity- day and night-
So to be conscous of existance is not defined by receiving the word.

So – saying “the word” is needed to keep someone alive for all eternity, is also a wrong teaching you have been persuaded about.

March 4, 2004 at 5:38 am#3639

Proclaimer

Participant

To Ramblinrose,

thx for the links. Will let you know what I think.

March 4, 2004 at 10:26 am#3640

Proclaimer

Participant

To ringo111,

I haven't read your post yet, but I wanted to say that even though I thought that you may have misunderstood me, I do certainly appreciate your questions as they keep me focussed more on what I am teaching and this is certainly a good thing. So more power to ya.

Anyway I can see that you have a belief that Wisdom is a Spirit of God (a she). Is this assumption correct and if so, what is this belief of yours and why do you believe it?

thx

March 4, 2004 at 12:10 pm#3641

ringo111

Participant

Yes – I believe there to be a spirit that GoD sends out called Wisdom Who is Female- or at least refered to as a female-

It would not be an assumption to think I believe this- Im preety sure Ive said it in every post, about this subject.

As for my reasons- Ive allready layed them out-

Most of my posts highlight this- It has been one of my main points.

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Page 3- of this Forum-

Mar. 01 2004,21:22
There are two types of wisdom-

(1)The actions someone takes because of what they think is best. (Wisdom)
(2)The Creature/spirit(Wisdom) GoD created

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Gathering of some of my past posts

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1)Isnt it obvious that people have wisdom of they're own.

Proverbs 19:11
A man's wisdom gives him patience; it is to his glory to overlook an offense.

1 Corinthians 1:19
For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”

*GoD will destroy wisdom of the wise.

1 Corinthians 3:19
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness”

1 Corinthians 2:13
This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words

*This prooves there are more uses for the word wisdom-

2) GoD created a Spirit called Wisdom.

*She was born – God sent her(Wisdom) to Jesus as well as other spirits.

Isaiah 11:2
The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD –

Now this is Jesus Testimony about The creature/spirit (Wisdom)

Luke 7:33-35
33For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, 'He has a demon.' 34The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and “sinners.” ' 35But wisdom is proved right by all her children.”

*Jesus refers to himself as a child of Wisdom. Prooving Her right.

Matthew 11:19
The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and “sinners.” ' But wisdom is proved right by her actions.”

*Wisdom- proved by “Her” actions!!

Laterz ^_^

March 13, 2004 at 11:12 pm#3642

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (ringo111 @ Mar. 05 2004,01:10)

Yes – I believe there to be a spirit that GoD sends out called Wisdom Who is Female- or at least refered to as a female-
……..
There are two types of wisdom-

(1)The actions someone takes because of what they think is best. (Wisdom)
(2)The Creature/spirit(Wisdom) GoD created

2) GoD created a Spirit called Wisdom.

*She was born – God sent her(Wisdom) to Jesus as well as other spirits.

Isaiah 11:2
The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD –

Now this is Jesus Testimony about The creature/spirit (Wisdom)

*Jesus refers to himself as a child of Wisdom. Prooving Her right.

So you believe that Wisdom was the first of God's works and that Wisdom is a Spirit (perhaps female). If so, then I can only assume that you believe this spirit to predate the Son of God and it seems to also point out that this spirit is a kind of mother to Jesus and us.

Would these assumptions be correct in your way of seeing this?

March 14, 2004 at 6:55 am#3643

ringo111

Participant

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Would these assumptions be correct in your way of seeing this?

First of what works In context to what?

because beginning and first are used for contextual things,
Like the disciples choosing someone who had been with them from the beginning or Jesus saying the beginning was when GoD created men. These are commonly not used in absolutes.

As from what I gather- Wisdom was the First of GoD's Works-
Wisdom witnessed GoD make all things- other than wisdoms own creation-

Jesus calls him and John Both children of Wisdom.

Jesus says that those who even obey GoDs words are his brother, sister and Mother.

Now im sure this scripture will be used in saying Jesus has to be wisdom- or before wisdom, because he is the ruler of GoD's creation. Because John said this.

John 1
29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30This is the one I meant when I said, 'A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.'

*This is not only the case with greatness- maybe so in Johns account- remember jesus was born after John.

Matthew 11:11
I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

*You see it is not solely being before them that makes you greater. As you see John is greater than all the men before him- But all will be greater in the Kingdom of heaven.

I guess this is a good time to show my point i PM'd you about a while ago- Of GoDs soverenty in creation- and not by Jesus, which Jesus testifies.

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Genesis 14:22
But Abram said to the king of Sodom, “I have raised my hand to the LORD , God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth, and have taken an oath

Matthew 19:4
“Haven't you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,

*We need to reconsider what we take the beginning to mean.
*Men were created after the earth, so it means the beginning of mens existance- not the beginning of GoD- For GoD has no Beginning-

Mark 13:19
because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now–and never to be equaled again.

The above Testimony makes The next “scripture” untrue-
*GoD and Jesus and the disciples were not confused- But whoever translated the start of John was extreamly confused, and in extreame Error, or just added it to the start.

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John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

*You see, Jesus says- GoD created the world.
GoD says by his own hands he made the heavens and the earth-
Jesus says GoD created us male and female.
Do you think GoD, or Jesus was mistaken??? I do not believe they are. There is such a wealth of scripture to say GoD is the Only creater- And there are only obscure scriptures to support that GoD is not.

Look

Isaiah 45:18
For this is what the LORD says- he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited- he says: “I am the LORD , and there is no other.

Revelation 4:11
“You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.”

*As you see here they did not praise the Lamb, But only praised GoD for creating all things.

*They praise God for “He” GoD created all things. Not that Jesus created all things with GoD. John 1:1-3 is wrong.

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Proverbs 8

1 Does not wisdom call out?
Does not understanding raise her voice?

22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, [2] , [3]
before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed [4] from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;

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25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.

30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.

*the part that i put in quotations even shows that this (wisdom) was not apart of GoDs creation of the earth- or the creatures. But a watcher of his Works, that GoD did by his own hand.

*Where it is written craftsman- im sure youd find the word used to be inapropriate- What craftsman do you know that does nothing But watch, like wisdom says she was.

*And that Wisdom as another worker- because as it says in the intro- Wisdom calls alloud,
After GoD created everything- Then she could get to work Giving wisdom to all who listen.

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Wisdom is our mother if we do what is right- We have many mothers- Even Jesus has many mothers.

Mark 3:35
Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother.”

1 Peter 3:6
like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.

Luke 7:35
But wisdom is proved right by all her children.”

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March 20, 2004 at 3:56 am#3644

Proclaimer

Participant

I do not agree with your idea of Wisdom.

Not that I think this is too important as it doesn't appear to be a foundational doctrine. But I still think that God did create all things through his Logos/Son and that Jesus is the Wisdom of God. As I said b4, wisdom is a concept or a part of God himself and therefore we can be children of wisdom just as we can be children of truth. But God begat a son who I believe is Wisdom and Truth and then God created all through him and for him. I do not have a problem with verses that say God created all things through him because Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God.

This conclusion I came to was the result of a long journey and is questionable in the sense that this is my experience and understanding thus far and I am of course a fallible human, but it is also what early writers such as Clement, Hermas, Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp, Papias, Aristides, Justin Martyr, Tatian, Athenagoras, Theophilus of Antioch, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Tertullian & Hippolytus came to.

All these writers wrote before the Nicene Creed and my conclusions were found with no knowledge of their conclusion, yet we agree that Jesus was the firstborn of God (literally as well) and that he is Wisdom.

Of course this doesn't make it right, but this is how I see it and I am surprised to find later that many others came to the same conclusion. I earlier assumed that many of these writers were Trinitarians from what Global was quoting, but found that they weren't as Global took things they said out of context and made it look like they were Trinitarian, because they mention the Father, Son and Spirit at times.

It may turn out that some of these writers taught stuff that I do not agree with, (such as the Trinity doctrine), or that they teach against scripture, but I haven't found anything yet. But time will allow me to fully understand what they believed, if I keep reading their writings and in time I will have a better understanding of their teachings. As it stands now, I agree with their ideas about God, Jesus and who and what wisdom is.

Anyway I cerainly do not disregard what you are saying ringo, but I need more than what you have given me to convince me. As it stands now, I see more truth in the idea that Jesus was literally the firstborn and that he personified certain characteristics of God, such as truth and wisdom.

So yes Jesus had a beginning, but these qualities that he personifies were previously and still are in God and God doesn't change like the shifting shadows. Like I said b4, I do think that wisdom is referred to as a 'she' when it is talking about a characteristic and 'he' when it is referring to a person. Of course I remain teachable and will keep an open mind in order to let truth change me if necessary.

Anyway the following quote is how I see it.

“For just as from one torch many fires are lighted, but the light of the first torch is not lessened by the kindling of many torches, so the Word, coming forth from the Word-Power of the Father, has not divested of the Word-Power Him who begat Him”.

March 21, 2004 at 4:03 am#3645

ringo111

Participant

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Plz look at the Verses i quoted to proove Jesus is a Co-creator faulse- There are so many that say GoD was the only creator- Even the proverbs quote about wisdom prooves that GoD was the only creator. And only 2 or 3 lil sections of writings say otherwise- the same as the trinty teaching only has a few. Jesus testifies that GoD alone created man and woman- and the earth. Then Jesus did not help create all things.

*The spirit of wisdom was sent to Jesus- It never says Jesus is wisdom.

*When Jesus says he is the way- the truth and the life- He does not mean that he truth- as Jesus says-

John 18:37
“You are a king, then!” said Pilate. Jesus answered, “You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”

1 John 4:6
This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

As you see there is also a spirit of truth- The same as if something is right- then it is considered truth

John 10:1
“I tell you the truth,

*See jesus tells truth-

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In the new testimate it only says Jesus was the firstborn of the dead, not the firstborn of everything, only a few unstable writings suggest this, which are proven faulse when weighed against scripture. We are given firstborn- so that we know he was born- created- and the first- GoD is not confused when he gives testimony. Jesus says GoD said- after sending his servants- I will send my son whom I love. Just because he was the first one to be called a Child of GoD- and made ruler over GoD's creation- Does not make him the first thing ever created. I also prooved that concept faulse. As people who come after are greater than those before them.

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This does not mean what you say it means.

It is talking about the word here- But we are talking about wisdom…. Word- Different to wisdom.

How does this quote proove Jesus – to be wisdom??? I see that you are suggesting that Jesus is the word, through this quote- But – We are talking about Jesus being or not being wisdom here- Not the word.

Even so, i dought the reliability, and stability of these writings- as we know the bible has been messed with- so , what about these smaller writings??

If these writings say that Jesus is the word, and then that the word is wisdom, and that wisdom was jesus, and a co-creator with GoD. Which I have not seen of your quotings, If this teaching was to come through these men- then Its a pathetic attempt at triing to make the trinity more viable, or just another secretly introduced lie to take away from the purity of what we are called to, either by the writers, (who if being influenced by Satan, as i believe the Trinity to be very much Satanic in origin) Or by others who went through their writings triing to add lies here or there- (still by satans direction) to make themselves seem like they have superiour knowledge.

But as i see it , all they are saying is that they are calling “the word” a him, and not wisdom a him.

Now, the quote about wisdom in proverbs does not support that she was a co-creator. But just a watcher, and then after GoD had created everything, she wisdom worked by his side-
My last post stated this- and prooved John 1-3 wrong- also the other ones that lay claim that jesus was a Co-creator.

As you see this is not an atribute but an action.

Proverbs 8
1 Does not wisdom call out?
Does not understanding raise her voice?

Luke 7:35
But wisdom is proved right by all her children.”

Jesus calls himself a child of wisdom. How can it be denighed??

and again, You call wisdom an object and Jesus?? How can you accept this??? Wisdom is either one or another- Jusus testifies- And you say , its only a characteristic when it says she.

*Find me where it calls John the baptist “She” Or a male prophet “She” seen as you say it covers atributes- surly this would be far more widespread, if your theory is true. This is something Im sure GoD would not have as part of his scripture- Because he hates Men dressing like women and women dressing like men, therefore- GoD would be clear with who is male and who is female when they are addressed to in his scriptures.

These writings by those ou quoted, who men claim to be true, who's text's have been changed- or stupid men, who either never knew or gave up the light. I do not find these of value- Tested against scripture it does not line up.

When it says in the bible- “scripture” It is talking about the torah- and various other old writings- Not the new testiment!!
But even so, If prooven right by the old writings- including the torah, the same way as Jesus prooved to people that the christ must suffer. Then those writings can be used as a means of teaching- but testing is done by the old texts.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is Godbreathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

James 2:23
And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God's friend.

*Obviously scripture was not their current writings- or their peers writings- The founders did not consider theyre own writings scripture. As they were just seperate writings that they used old testimate(scripture) to proove what they said right. They tested themselves by scripture.

This notion that wisdom is Jesus Does not line up with either texts, New or old Testimate, When weighed against the torah, But these writings by other men, seemingly say contrary. Not to assume that thats what the so called writers of these writings say, because someone may have translated them in a way that wanted to proove theyre own (the translators) beliefs.

I believe I have said enough about this- contimplate for yourself if so- But i believe I have stated a strong case and anyone who wants to find the trueth by my writing so far will, Thats if they even needed to read my writing.

I am confident- as I have found nothing in scripture,to say other than what I believe- As Wisdom testifies who she is- God sends wisdom to Jesus, Jesus testifies who wisdom is.

The only thing that could indicate with some im
agining that wisdom is Jesus is in the New testimate- which is not scripture- as the writers of the time talked about scripture- which was not their own writing- but the old writings.
I have proven any writing wrong that says Jesus was a Co-creator, by combination Old Testimate and the writings of the new testimate.

To me it seems complete.

March 22, 2004 at 1:44 am#3646

Proclaimer

Participant

Hi ringo111,

I won't reply to all your last post yet, but I will look @ the following quotes you mention first:

Quote

*The spirit of wisdom was sent to Jesus- It never says Jesus is wisdom.

I don't think that anyone (me in particular) is saying that Jesus is the co-creator like a co-pilot is to a pilot, but that Jesus was the channel that God created the cosmos through. God's first expression was Christ as the Logos and through that first expression all other expressions and creation came.

There are many verses that say that God spoke through Christ and he is referred to as the way or path.

Hebrews 1:1-6 (English-NIV)
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Other verses say that God created the universe by him. I see that as the same thing as through him. So if God spoke through Jesus, then Jesus is not God, nor the author of the words he spoke, similarly if God created the universe through Christ, then he is not the creator/originator.

It's like saying that Eve came from Adam, yet we know that Adam did not create Eve. Rather Adam was the source of Eve, but she was created by God.

You then say that Jesus is never called Wisdom, but I point you to the following scriptures:

1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

So here he is called the Wisdom of God. It is a title and description of who he is.

1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV)
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Again Jesus the person is for us wisdom from God. Wisdom in concept or character is in Jesus Christ.

So again I say that all that Jesus is and has comes from the Father and that is why Jesus calls his Father his God and our God. Jesus personifies many of God's attributes such as wisdom, truth and power.

Will hopefully finish your other points soon, when I have read them.

March 22, 2004 at 3:21 am#3647

ringo111

Participant

t8 I will answer-

******************

Quote

“Hi ringo111,

I won't reply to all your last post yet, but I will look @ the following quotes you mention first:

(QUOTE]Plz look at the Verses i quoted to proove Jesus is a Co-creator faulse- There are so many that say GoD was the only creator- Even the proverbs quote about wisdom prooves that GoD was the only creator. And only 2 or 3 lil sections of writings say otherwise- the same as the trinty teaching only has a few. Jesus testifies that GoD alone created man and woman- and the earth. Then Jesus did not help create all things.

*The spirit of wisdom was sent to Jesus- It never says Jesus is wisdom.[quote)

I don't think that anyone (me in particular) is saying that Jesus is the co-creator like a co-pilot is to a pilot, but that Jesus was the channel that God created the cosmos through. God forst expression was Christ as the Logos and through that first expression all other expressions and creation came.”

*If this were true then GoD would not say, nor would Jesus say GoD created the universe- That he alone stretched out the heavens- the earth- mankind-

*John 1:1-3 teaching about the Logos is incorrect- And in contrary to Jesus testimony-

*Instead Jesus would have said- GoD created the univirse through me- But no, Jesus does not testify to this. Not at all!!
He testifies he is GoD's son- who was born to become a King.
That the creator created heaven the earth and mankind.

Quote

There are many verses that say that God spoke through Christ and he uis referred to as the way or path.

Because he did what GoD told him to do, Just like moses- as it says-
Acts 3:22
For Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you.

*This is why he is the way- Because if you do not do what he says you will be cut off

Quote

*Key word here is IF!! Jesus does not testify to this concept, neither does GoD- The angels in revelation attribute all creation alone to GoD- Id say the translators missunderstood what the writing was saying in the above scripture- If it were written by the original writer, and not an insert- than to the rest of scripture even its previous line.
GoD says by his own hand he made everything, Not through anything. With Jesus when he spoke – he said he spoke what he heard – But as for creation- GoD says he did it by himself and made it through no-one.

Quote

It's like saying that Eve came from Adam, yet we know that Adam did not create Eve. Rather Adam was the source of Eve, but she was created by God.

*It could be like that, but Jesus does not testify to this-
He testifies that GoD created man, and woman- the earth and the heavens.

Quote

You then say that Jesus is never called Wisdom, but I point you to the following scriptures:

1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

So here he is called the Wisdom of God. It is a title and description of who he is.

*Jesus is not GoD's power, but through him came GoD's Power. And the same with wisdom, GoD sent the spirit of wisdom to Jesus and through him came wisdom, that the spirit of wisdom gave to Jesus.

Quote

1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV)
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Again Jesus the person is for us wisdom from God. Wisdom in concept or character is in Jesus Christ.

*wisdom = our righteousness, holiness and redemption.
So- Jesus became for us rightousness, holiness and redemption. Remember the spirit of wisdom was sent to him, aswell as other spirits.

*Also, as you see it says wisdom for us, as in the wisdom we now posses, If we obey his teaching. So we have the same wisdom.

Quote

Will hopefully finish your other points soon.

*were these the points your talking about??

——————————————–

March 22, 2004 at 9:56 am#3648

Proclaimer

Participant

Hi ringo111,

The other points I haven't answered because I didn't read all your post and still haven't.

Regarding my point that Jesus was the channel that God created all things through, I still don't see how a channel makes someone a creator. E.g I may bring the gospel to a sinner and he may repent and receive the Spirit of God. But it is God's doing and I am just the channel or vessel that God used. Similarly God created all things through Christ and for him. That doesn't make Christ the creator to me at least.

I base the understanding that God created all things through Christ, not on my own imagination, but a number of scriptures that appear to be quite clear with this point. To not believe that God created all things through Christ would mean that all these scriptures were either fraudulent or mis-translated or that you are ignoring them. I quote them below and I know that I have repeated some, but I want to put them together to at least show that there are quite a number of them.

Colossians 1:15-17 (English-NIV)
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Acts 3:15 (English-NIV)
You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this.

Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Here are some verses that talk about Christ being before all things and others that show that he pre-existed without defining when.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god.

Together with John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 8:42 (English NIV)
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.

John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' “

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

Luke 10:18

He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

John 6:38-40
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; ……

Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,

The above verse assumes pre-existence. Another look at verse 7: “but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness”, points out that Jesus humbled himself to become a (or like a) human and also a servant. So this suggests to us that he pre-existed in a higher state because to humble oneself is to become lower. If he started life in this humbled state, then it would be incorrect to say that he humbled himself.

Anyway you can see above that I quoted 4 verses that say that Jesus was the channel that God created all things through. Many other verses show that Jesus existed before creation and others again just show that he pre-existed before his birth on earth as a man.

To me, these scriptures paint a clear picture and it would take a lot to convince me that they were all mistranslated or added in by decievers. Of course I am open to that possibility as I am open to all possibilities. But I would need some pretty good proof and God's Spirit would have to confirm it to me as well.

March 23, 2004 at 9:04 am#3649

ringo111

Participant

Quote

Hi ringo111,

The other points I haven't answered because I didn't read all your post and still haven't.

*What about Your view that Jesus is Wisdom?? Have you changed on that point??

*Saying that all things were made through Jesus makes Jesus and GoD liiers and the most part of the bible wrong- I am writing this after reading your post, and you have made an error mixing in two(2) completely different teachings together- We know that Jesus was around since before the world began- Jesus testifies to that-
*But what is in question here is –
*Was Everything Made Through Jesus??
That is the case you are making – and as I said is something that Jesus Discounts- Not one Of Jesus' or GoD's testimonies agree with everything being Made by GoD through Jesus. They both testify that GoD made everything, others more specifically that GoD alone made everything.

Matthew 19:4
“Haven't you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,

*Jesus does not testify that male and female were made through himself- But that the creator made them. Who is the creator?? Lets see more specifically.

Mark 10:6
“But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.'

*You see GoD is the creator who made them.

Mark 13:19
because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now–and never to be equaled again.

*God also created the world, no-one other than GoD is accredited for creation- We are getting closer.

*We see that the lord here is the Lord GoD

Revelation 4:11
“You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you(singular) created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.”

*Praised GoD alone (you) for creating all things.

Isaiah 44:24
“This is what the LORD says- your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD , who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself

*GoD alone!!!!! By himself!!!!!!!! Not through or by anyone!!!
^_^ celebrate good timez ^^

*You see the problem here is, Most scriptures say that GoD is the only creator- Or point only at one creator- And then others Give more detail- and say GoD alone created all things- Not by or through someone else-

Quote

Colossians 1:15-17 (English-NIV)
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

*Really?? This translation weighs poorly against Jesus and GoD's testimonies, or the others in the new testimate.
Id say what was origonally written was that all things were made with GoDs intention to make Jesus Lord of his creation. And someone has come and twisted its meaning.
*GoD did say “Sit at my right hand untill I make your enemies a footstool under your feet”

Quote

Acts 3:15 (English-NIV)
You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this.

*Really?? Jesus the author??? Lets see what Jesus has to say about that.

John 5:26
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.

*Author is the wrong word here-

Quote

*The translator was confused with the last line- Or is an addition- As GoD makes it clear that He alone Made all things.

Quote

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

*And once again a blaitant lie.

Quote

Here are some verses that talk about Christ being before all things and others that show that he pre-existed without defining when.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god.

John 8:42 (English NIV)
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.

John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' ”

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

Luke 10:18

He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

John 6:38-40
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; ……

Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches.
I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

*as i stated above- Yes Jesus By his own testimony and others in scripture (tha OT) Testified that Jesus was in heaven before the creation on the world. This is off topic. But Good to clarify our positions- There is valadation in making that point. I guess i was shoked, that you thought that, I would think anything other than Jesus being with GoD before the creation of the world.

*This verse points out that we too- who are made in GoD's likeness – and by that nature GoD- (remember GoD said to the heavenly beings, “they have become just like us”) are to be the same as christ Jesus, just as he humbled himself, we are to Humble ourselves and not think equality with GoD something to be grasped.
When a man Humbles himself. Was he higher or mightier before he humbles himself??
I tell you no!!! it is because he now acknowledges that GoD is mightier than himself, and therefore just as Christ is lifted up by GoD so anyone humble's themselves like Jesus are to be lifted up by GoD.

Quote

GoD testifies that he alone is the creator. Not through anyone- When GoD uses someone to do something he acknowlages their actions. ie prophets- angels-

Quote

Cool ^_^ as i see my friend-

I was like arg….. he hasnt changed his mind yet??? What will change his mind??? But I guess I didnt lay out all the reasons why I believe, I thought I had, But then, as thinkers do- They come up with more questions- and well thought out belief patterns. Its hard to go through why you believe things- But its GooD and is making me think. Like, im totally open to be prooven wrong- But to me it seems the evidence is so overwhelming- and yes – I think inside, deeply in my mind, i feel a little heart feeling, and think- “If im wrong Im making a grave error”- So i look up more scriptures- to make sure im not. Fear of the lord is great, makes you search that bit extra, Or a whole lot more extra, ^_^ lol, lazy me ^^;;

March 29, 2004 at 5:02 am#3650

Proclaimer

Participant

Hi Ringo,

Quote

What about Your view that Jesus is Wisdom?? Have you changed on that point??

I still hold the view that Jesus is Wisdom. As I said b4, I am open to being wrong as I should, but this is my current understanding.

You say that Wisdom is a Spirit, that maybe so. I know for example, that Jesus is the Truth and we also have the Spirit of Truth. I think in both cases truth from God as a characteristic is personified in Jesus and also proceeds from God as the Holy Spirit of God. So as it is with truth, it could also be possible that we have the Spirit of Wisdom and the person of Wisdom. This possibility does not lessen the characteristic of truth or wisdom in God, if Jesus is the Truth and if Jesus is Wisdom. Both still originate in God. We must remember in Christ, all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.

Quote

Saying that all things were made through Jesus makes Jesus and GoD liiers and the most part of the bible wrong- I am writing this after reading your post, and you have made an error mixing in two(2) completely different teachings together- We know that Jesus was around since before the world began- Jesus testifies to that-

I do not see the conflict that you are talking about. If God made all things through Christ, then God still made all things. A channel is not the source, but the path or way. Jesus said “I am the way, the truth and the life”, no one comes to the Father but by me. So here we can see the path is not the Father.

Anyway, we both agree that Jesus pre-existed, but I am not confusing 2 teachings as one as you say. I was simply pointing out 2 points. I made that obvious by reason of the seperation of scriptures that pointed to Jesus being the channel that God made all things and then by the scriptures that showed pre-existence. I would appreciate if you thought out what you wrote, b4 jumping to wrong conclusions. I say this with respect.

Quote

Jesus does not testify that male and female were made through himself- But that the creator made them. Who is the creator?? Lets see more specifically.

Jesus testified that he is the Son of God. Other scriptures point out that God created the Cosmos through the Son. Jesus mission was not to say what he has done b4 he came to earth, but to reveal God to man and to demonstrate who he was, not what he has done b4 he came to earth. But if scripture says that God created all through his son, then who am I to doubt that. Unless conclusive proof is offered of fraud or mis-translation, I will believe scripture.

Quote

Isaiah 44:24
“This is what the LORD says- your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD , who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself

*GoD alone!!!!! By himself!!!!!!!! Not through or by anyone!!!
^_^ celebrate good timez ^^

Your example is used to prove that God our redeemer is the only creator. Yet if you think about it, God redeemed us through his Son did he not? So why could not God have created all things through his Son as he redeemed us through his Son. It seems logical and clear from scripture that God used his son to create and redeem, whilst remaining in the firm understanding that Jesus is not the God who did these things.

Quote

Yes that is correct. One God and one way to God. That is 2 persons. As Paul set down for us, “one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all and one Lord”. One God and one Lord makes 2. This doesn't contradict that God is the only creator, it supports it.

You then concentrate on the verses that I quoted and in your defense you say they are incorrect translations, because they contradict the scriptures that state that God alone is the creator. But as I have said repeatedly, I do not see a contradiction at all. One creator and one way is what the scriptures say. So in order for you to convince me of your argument, you need to prove or demonstrate the so-called mis-translation of these verses. Playing one scripture against another only works to expose a faulty translation if they contradict. I do not see a contradiction. I see both types of scripture complimenting each other to give us a fuller picture.

Anyway I, like yourself do appreciate talking with someone about this and I pray that we will know the truth regarding this matter and pray that we will be lead into all truth as we seek God with our hearts.

April 7, 2004 at 1:36 am#3651

ringo111

Participant

hey t8

Quote

I still hold the view that Jesus is Wisdom. As I said b4, I am open to being wrong as I should, but this is my current understanding.

Other prophets were called things that they wernt really, Trueth is relative yet the true truth comes from GoD, Therefore Jesus had the truth, He was called that, Just like Jesus called Simon-Peter The rock, And on whom He would build his church. But they did not build a building on peters body.

Quote

all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.

? whered you pull this from? All the fullness of GoD is not in Jesus, but everything that is on offer for us in this world is through Jesus, If this was a scripture- Then you have missunderstood the meaning.
Whatever fullness means. He did nothing of himself but only what GoD showed him, But as for everything that GoD is, Thats a different matter, GoD had no beggining, Jesus did. GoD does not change, Jesus Does!! “GoD has made this Jesus both christ and lord”

Quote

Quote
Saying that all things were made through Jesus makes Jesus and GoD liiers and the most part of the bible wrong- I am writing this after reading your post, and you have made an error mixing in two(2) completely different teachings together- We know that Jesus was around since before the world began- Jesus testifies to that-
QUOTE

I later recogised the legitimacy of your statment about Jesus pre-existing.

Most scriptures say that GoD made all things, and then that GoD alone by himself Made all things. And a few writings, contradict these other scriptures by saying GoD created all things, Not by his own hands, but through Jesus.

Quote

Quote
Jesus does not testify that male and female were made through himself- But that the creator made them. Who is the creator?? Lets see more specifically.
QUOTE

You missed out the conclusion, you are unfairly breaking apart my case.

This was my conclusion as to who the creator was.

Mark 10:6
“But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.'

*You see GoD is the creator who made them.

-Scripture- the bulk of scripture says GoD alone, by his own hand Made all things- Jesus prooves these other writings wrong- He doesnt Just testify that he is GoD's SoN, But testifies to the truth, and one of those truths were “God created the world”
Jesus does not sell himself short, he does not lie, If GoD created through Jesus, then Jesus would have said so.

Jesus also prophecied, healed, spoke against, did zany things, He wasnt just there to be recognised as the Son of GoD, But to proove people wrong, or right.

*Now , scripture that was considered scripture by the writers of the new tesiment, was the old testiment. No-where in the Old-testiment does it say that GoD- created through anyone- Wisdom testifies that she watched GoD create all things then did her work.

Why then do you believe this missinterpritation- or straight out lie to be true??

Quote

Quote
Isaiah 44:24
“This is what the LORD says- your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD , who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself

*GoD alone!!!!! By himself!!!!!!!! Not through or by anyone!!!
^_^ celebrate good timez ^^
Quote

The way israel was redeemed was through the blood of animals before Jesus. Were these animals GoD??? We are told Jesus is now that offering- spilt blood- the lamb.

It is clear that GoD did not create all things through His animals, And once again, Jesus is named after a created thing, and in revelation an actual Lamb.
Would this not defame him if he was not created?? After all, he is called the Lamb!! a created animal.

It is also Clear and logical that GoD created all things by his own hands, as all Old testiment scriptures testify, and that most new testiment scriptures testify- GoD alone created all things.

Revelation 4:11
“You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.”

Quote

Quote
*You see the problem here is, Most scriptures say that GoD is the o
nly creator- Or point only at one creator- And then others Give more detail- and say GoD alone created all things- Not by or through someone else-
QUOTE

One Servant sent by the OnE GoD??? There have been many People who Had spoken GoD's word to the people, Jesus was not the first, Remember elijah who GoD took up into Heaven, Jesus is a sacrifice offering before GoD. Revelation makes that very clear, also, because of his obediance to GoD, Jesus was made Lord of all created things.
He Chooses those who will enter as he points out Parable sheep and the goats, and others.

Acts 2:36
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

As you see GoD made him LorD. As in gave him position, As in a King.

The use of “Lord” by the translators of the Bible is very loose,

Example

Acts 4:26
The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together against the Lord and against his Anointed One.[ 4:26 That is, Christ or Messiah.]

But hang on isnt there ment to be only one Lord???

Matthew 22:44
” 'The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet.”

Yes We have One GoD and then seperatly One Lord, But GoD is also a Lord, and If lord means Kings- Then others are going to be aswell. Because Jesus said he will make others Kings.
That he will Give them iron septers to smash nations.

*Please Proove that GoD made the world Through Jesus.

*Because all this point Prooves, is That GoD is the Creater that Gives Jesus Position, that GoD made Jesus LorD.

Quote

Blaitant Contradition-
Creation- Creation-
GOD BY HIS OWN HAND v.s. GoD THROUGH JESUS

1) Very Few Quotes say GoD THROUGH JESUS – Only in new TestimenT. not a mention in the OT.

2) Many Quotes say GOD by himself , by his own hands- OlD Testiment & New TestimenT.

April 21, 2004 at 3:21 am#3652

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote

Yes a name is important, but all godliness comes from God. Even as Jesus is truth, this truth comes from his Father. Hence I also believe that he is also the Wisdom of God. With regards to Jesus building the Church on Peter, I thought that he built his Church on the truth that Peter uttered, namely “You are the Christ the Son of the living God”.

Quote

Colossians 2:9-10
9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
10 and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.

Trinitarians use verse 9 to say that Jesus is God, but ignore 10. Just as we are not Christ, Christ is not God. So Jesus is the visible expression of the invisible God. An expression is an image, in the likeness of. So it stands to reason that Jesus would express wisdom from God in his person if he expresses God.

Quote

Most scriptures say that God made all things. This is not on trial in this discussion. We both agree with that. But your reasoning that Jesus being the channel that God made all things through nullifies the truth that God made all things to me is flawed reasoning.

If I have a son, does that make me or my wife his creator. No we are simply the channel that God uses to create another person. Children are still created by God, regardless of the parents/channel.

In the Book of Revelation, we see that God gave the revelation, but he gave it to Jesus, who gave it to an Angel, who gave it to John, who gave it to the Churches and to us 2000 or so years later. Does this channel or hierachy some how nullify the fact that God gave the revelation? Absolutely not.

God redeems us through his son, so how can we reason that God doesn't save us if it is Jesus by whom we are saved. Trinitarians will argue that this proves that Jesus is God as the scriptures say that God is our only saviour and in other scriptures it says that Jesus is our saviour. Your thinking would nullify Jesus as saving us and would conclude that these scriptures are false because they contradict that God is our only saviour. You may not believe this, but your thinking with regards to God not creating through his son, would leave that conclusion if that thinking were applied to the saviour scriptures.

The point of my post ringo, is that there are at least 4 scriptures that clearly say that God created all through Christ and there are other scriptures alluding to Jesus being the only path, way or channel that God works through. So you need to prove these scriptures to be false, not by quoting other scriptures that to your mind contradict, but to show how they were tampered with or how they were mis-translated. If you cannot prove this, then your case rests entirely on your own understanding of the scriptures that talk about God being the creator. This argument would not hold up in a human court especially as others (like myself) can show how these scriptures compliment the scriptures that talk about Christ as the channel. Now if a human court wouldn't validate your argument based on your own reasoning, then how much more should a teacher or man of God be weary of such validation. You simply need to supply the proof that these 4 scriptures have been tampered with or show how they were mis-translated. If you cannot do it, then you do not have a case.

Lets reason together here, if I were to accept your argument based on your reasoning and I was to disregard at least 4 scriptures because they didn't fit with your way of seeing something, then would I not be setting a dangerous precident. Is this not how many cults operate? By isolating scriptures they build up there arguments from certain selected scriptures, whilst ignoring anything that may contradict there point of view.

A man who seeks truth, will accept all scripture as it is truly written and if he cannot prove a scripture to be a faulty translation or show any signs of tampering, then he would consider the scripture even if it didn't fit with his theology.

I think it is in mans nature to disregard things that do not fit into his understanding. But the man who seeks truth accepts all from God and then tries to understand what it all means after he accepts it. But the nature of man takes his own understanding and fits scripture into it. Is this not what Trinitarians do, yet we know they are wrong. Why should we follow their example?

If a scripture contradicts another, then one way or another you can demonstrate how at least one of them was mis-translated or added in. You need to demonstrate this and yes there are examples of this in different bibles. But if you cannot find fault in either scripture, then perhaps it is time to change your understanding?

April 21, 2004 at 5:14 am#3653

ringo111

Participant

God Does not leave himself without witness, Most scriptures say GoD alone made everything by his own hands, As I stated. In the old testiment, there is not even a hint that Anyone was envoled in Creation apart from GoD alone, and by no-one else.

It is only In the later writings of the New testiment which we know has been tampered with along the centuries, But still, GoD Does not leave himself without witness, Many writings acredit GoD as the only creater, and by no-one!!
Jesus testifies GoD created everything- If it were not true then Jesus would have said that He Himself (jesus) created everything by GoD working through him. But he did not, He accredited all action to GoD, But as for Jesus action, He is given credit for his actions. Or do you think GoD does not reward people for obediance?? For as it says “GoD is not mocked, you will reap what you sow”

It is not wild to then conclude that this idea that you present that Jesus is a channel through which all creation was made, Is a lie, A deciept, A teaching past from Satan, either to trinitarians or anyone, and not a teaching of true believers.

How on earth can it be condsidered Cultish, to believe GoD, You are adding words like, “Channel” to GoD's ways, and that is not cool.

I allready prooved to believe GoD created everything through Jesus is in direct contradiction to the scriptures.

*Jesus Was Made the attoning Sacrifice- Like the lamb or a pigion or even rice. That is why he is given power over all.

*Jesus Made the secret paths known to people, That is why he is the way, which is a “metaphore” He is not a yellow brick road of purity we walk over. Jesus showed Us, GoD's desired way for us to live in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. This is the truth, Jesus came to testify to the truth. As in, what is right.

This teaching of yours, that A person can be an object, or an idea, sounds like a pagan belief , sounds Like a buddist or New age, And not a biblical teaching.

Quote

Colossians 2:9-10
9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
10 and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.

Just as I said, I will quote myself. “All the fullness of GoD is not in Jesus, but everything that is on offer for us in this world is in Jesus”
Because that same fullness is offered to us, and we know that we are not to be GoD, as it is written “All are predestined to be conformed to the likeness of Jesus”

Quote

If this were my only opposition, That GoD is the only creater, and rejected your claim that GoD made everything through Jesus, On that one belief, then yes You would be correct, But, It is not.

GoD plainly States many times, That GoD by his very own hands, arms , stretched out the land, that GoD formed the dirt and breathed on Adam to make him alive. He also states By Himself, alone, created all things. He states that he created everything by no-one else.

This is my grievence, This is why I say that your idea that GoD created the world through Jesus is flawed.

Quote

If I have a son, does that make me or my wife his creator. No we are simply the channel that God uses to create another person. Children are still created by God, regardless of the parents/channel.

If you did not choose to have Sex there would not be a son. GoD does not force you to have sex. This annalogy is flawed.
And where does it say that All subsequent creation is GoD's creation, You are by saying this saying that anything created by anyone is GoD's creation, You are then saying that Satans lies are GoD's lies, and that a man who commits sin is Commiting GoD's sin.

But a child is born, By the mechinism GoD created and then left to the individual. The same as he created all creatures and to some he gave free will, and it is by theyre own creation, using the creation given to them that they Rebell against GoD.

Quote

Like GoD gave his messages Directly to prohpets, or angels. This Fact does not proove that Jesus is not apart of creation. In fact it prooves that Jesus is apart of the creation just like us.

Quote

Who sent Jesus? GOD!!!!
Jesus didnt want to die! GOD WANTED HIM TO!!!
Jesus was obediant to…. GOD!!!
The servant Jesus served and was made christ and lord by…
GOD!!!
Jesus said and did only what he was told to do by…
GOD!!!
Jesus said Man and earth were created by.
GOD!!!

God redeemed the people through sacrifices before Jesus came, Are then those sacrifes called actual redeemers?? The priests offered the sacrifices for the people to attone for their sins. GoD is the only True Saviour, And the sacrifices are mearly Ways to express GoDs Saviourity. Even though it was not GoD doing the sacrifice, nor was it GoD that was sacrificed, But it was the priests for the people. In the same way as Lambs were provided because GoD created them, GoD, provided Jesus For the people to slaughter as an attoning sacrifice, who obeyed G
oD, and in return GoD made Jesus ruler of GoD's creation.

Quote

GoD by himself- by his own hands

Isaiah 45:12
It is I who made the earth and created mankind upon it. My own hands stretched out the heavens; I marshaled their starry hosts.

Genesis 2:4
This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created. When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens-

Mark 13:19
because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now–and never to be equaled again.

Revelation 10:6
And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, “There will be no more delay!

*SWORE BY HIM!!! GoD the one who created all things!!

So many more.

My quotes to say GoD created the World by himself are in old and New testiment. All you have is obscure writings from the new testimate, Under a court of law Your writings would be discounted.

GoD does not say he does something alone, when it is someone else, The prophets are good examples.

Prophets were called by GoD for a specific task, that GoD wanted, But at the end of theyre coarse, GoD doesnt Just say Look what i have done, But recognises those he works through. Therefore GoD surly and truely made all things by himself, and through or by no-one, If that were true he would have said it.

Your quotes are not quotes of Jesus But of Others, Which the disciples warn that “unstable people can easily tamper with Pauls writings because they are hard to understand, as with the other scriptures”

Quote

They are the only four – which are in contradiction to the whole old testiment and New Testiment. The only Scriptures to support your view are ones that are prooven to be faulse, which are the trinity teachings. Cults operate by many means, Remember Jesus was considered to be a leader of a cult. You are doing what you say cults do, You only have a very small number of quotes and taint the majority of the scripture with that precept, By your own words you call yourself a cultish believer, Why then do you accuse me?

I am not ignoring your quotes but discounting them as frauds, because most scripture says direct opposite to them. Many more than four quotes!!!

Quote

Yes man does tamper to fit into his own theological beliefs, And this is what Im seeing through, Men have changed those few writings of the new testiment, the ones you quote, Which are complete contradiction to the truth, and contradiction to the Majority of scripture, and this is what I am exposing.

Quote

If a scripture seems to be in contradiction then all scriptures should be found in regards to that topic, and then a entire view and conclusion can be drawn, This is what I have Done, and found the claim that GoD created the world through Jesus to be faulse.

Pray that GoD may reveal the truth to you, and obey what he tells you in the basic matters, if you do, Im sure in time you will understand. The same for anyone who wants to do what is pleasing to GoD.

April 21, 2004 at 11:24 am#3654

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote

Did God create you, yet you were made through your parents. Was Eve created by God, yet Eve was made by Adam. There are many examples of God creating things through another. Nature itself is the biggest witness of this. The bible is full of examples of vessels that God uses for his will and vessels that God uses to create. Even the genealogies are testament to the fact that God created each one through another. Each of our DNA comes from each of our parents, but God still created us. He is the creator of all.

Paul teaches that God is the head of Christ and Christ is the head of Man and Man is the head of Woman. Yet we can also derive from this that God is the head of Man and Woman. Yet this somehow does not nullify the fact that Jesus is also the head and source of man. Likewise God created all things, but he created them through Christ and he created woman through man and now man is born through woman. Yet are we not created by God? So how do you explain the contradiction with this obvious teaching by your teaching.

So your thinking that God created all things means that he didn't use anyone or anything is simply flawed. The evidence of this is all around you and in every living thing on earth. The evidence is simply astounding and is staring you in the face. Anyone can clearly demonstrate that life comes from life. But the scriptures are teaching us that all life comes primarily from God and is passed through many paths and channels.

God always creates through something or someone and he always delegates. When something gets done in God's will, you can bet that he delegated it rather than actually doing it himself. After all God is Spirit and he doesn't walk around like a man. But he sends men to do his bidding.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So ringo, I feel that I have to rebuke you, not for believing that Wisdom is a Spirit, for surely you are entitled to that belief. I rebuke you not for your non-belief that Jesus is Wisdom, for you are entitled to that too. But I rebuke you for clearly teaching me and anyone else who reads this discussion to ignore certain scriptures and for trying to undo the work of Paul and John for their teaching that Jesus is the way or channel that God created all through.

You seem to take comfort in the fact that there are supposedly 4 scriptures that teach this clearly. You reason that these 4 scriptures must be wrong because they contradict your false belief that God never creates through anyone or any channel, according to your interpretation of other scriptures. Yet you have supplied no evidence of tampering or mis-translation.

So I hope one day that you will feel shame for what you are trying to do here. Whether it will be 2 weeks or 50 years from now, I hope one day you will realise what you are really doing. i.e. to teach men to disregard scripture because it doesn't fit with your theology. May you feel shame in order that you may repent.

If you want to disprove anything in the bible, then lets see the evidence of mis-translation. The fact that you haven't tried to convince me this way is very worrying. I am not as weak as you may think, for I and I hope anyone else will not follow your reasoning, to disregard scripture.

Besides these 4 scriptures we have many supporting scriptures such as Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life, or the fullness of the diety lives in him, or I am the vine and you are the branches. Jesus is clearly all we need to in order to be presented to God. We also know that we will be seated with him on his throne and will rule with him, so Christ is our Head and our Lord. But at least we both know that he is not the Almighty God.

So ringo, I will say it again to make sure that you understand my words. Unless you can convince me that these scriptures are wrong, then I hope that you repent of relying on your own understanding and read scripture for what it is and build your understanding from that. Rather than forcing scripture into your man made understanding.

Convince me that these scriptures are frauds/mis-translations or stop slandering the teaching of Paul and John.

Who in their right mind would disregard scripture without proof that it is mis-translated or added in. Please be reasonable, if not for yourself, do it for those who read this discussion.

I ask you in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord and in love to repent and realise that truth is not something we force into our own ideas, but that it is something we accept through revelation and with great desire, we should try to understand it.

Do you not know that false teaching puts 'The Way' into disrepute to those who listen to it.

I encourage all who read this to never disregard scripture because it doesn't fit with your current understanding. It is you who needs to change, not scripture. Just humble yourself and admit your limitations and if God considers you worthy, he will reveal the meaning to you. For God desires to reveal his truth to the innocent and he hardens his heart to the proud.

May 4, 2004 at 12:19 am#3655

Johan

Participant

I wrote a post, saved it but cannot find any way to send it out or to ask for help. Please let me know what to do. Johan.

May 4, 2004 at 10:56 am#3656

Admin

Keymaster

To Johan,

Once logged in, you need to click the link on the top left of the page called 'Notes'.

Here is a shortcut to the 'Notes' link.

http://heaven.net.nz/cgi-bin….CODE=00 :;):

May 4, 2004 at 2:29 pm#3657

ringo111

Participant

Hmm t8 – I read your post when you wrote it. But thought I'd leave my reply to a time when I could be bothered responding to your claims.

You see, I allready prooved that wisdom was not a Co-creator- or the channel of creation through which all things were made. According to the old testimate wisdom was Just an observer of GoD's creation of the world.
So your theory that Jesus is actually the wisdom spoken of the old testimate and that He is wisdom is a contradiction, according to your theory.

Because, If wisdom were Jesus, then Jesus had nothing to do with the creation of all things anyway.

Besides all this. Jesus Testifies himself as a child of wisdom, The old testimate calls wisdom a Her. Im sure GoD was not Confused.

This is from an earlier post of mine. Please be sure to actually read it.

Proverbs 8

1 Does not wisdom call out?
Does not understanding raise her voice?

Quote

30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.

*the part that i put in quotations even shows that this (wisdom) was not apart of GoDs creation of the earth- or the creatures. But a watcher of his Works, that GoD did by his own hand.

*Then After the world and humans were created, Wisdom Worked by GoD's side. Not before it.

*******************************

Now- t8 You say that I am disregarding scripture to fit my theology??? By no means- These writings that you call scripture, are proven faulse, and others you are reading into them the wrong way. Keep in mind that the writers of the New Testimate did not consider their own writings scripptures. The old testimate does not support the writtings that claim GoD made all things through anyone, Let alone Jesus, Jesus talked alot about prophecy and correcting things that were wrong.
When Jesus said “when God created the world until now” What Jesus said was Backed up the Old Testimate (scripture), Therefore this was the trueth.
Also, Many other places in the new testimate accredit creation to GoD alone, and not through anyone. In direct Contradiction to the quote (quotes?) in the new testimate that claim that God Created everything through Jesus.
Therefore with the measure of the Scriptures , the old testimate.

With the inconsistancies found and very few amounts of quotes to the contrary, The conclusion is that God created all things, by his own hands as he wistnesses. Just as he says. For- the one who creates is GoD, In fact, Jesus calls GoD the creator.

Matthew 19:4
“Haven't you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,

*We see that the lord here is the Lord GoD

Revelation 4:11
“You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you(singular) created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.”

*Praised GoD alone (you) for creating all things.

Isaiah 44:24
“This is what the LORD says- your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD , who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself

*This conclusion is not random and picked to suit my theology!
My theology is what I findGoD to have said, through the many witnesses.

I have no resentment toward you, I was Just like, Hmm, ok, rebuke for something I have not Done. Which is strange, usually Id be really concerned, like upset or somthing. But Yeah, Like… The scriptures Ive Gone over, Its really bad to exclude things, and this is not what I have done, I have looked at everything, and in the looking at all evidence, found my conclusion.

I was sadened by your response, a lil' suprised. But thats ok. Keep up the search man. ^_^

Did GoD hearden the hearts of the disiples because they knew what was right and spoke boldly?? I am not speaking out of place here, It was not only by the wisdom GoD has given me , but the conclusion came by the scriptures so everyone can see the conclusion. ^_^

L8rz. Cinceerly –

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