Who is Jesus?

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  • #3619
     t8 
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    I have a question:

    “How is it that they say the Christ is the Son of David? David himself declares in the Book of Psalms:
    The Lord said to my Lord:
          “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”

    David calls him 'Lord.' How then can he be his son?”

    #3601
     SearchingForTheTruth 
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    T8,
    Can he not be his Lord and son thru bloodline? Mary called him Lord, is she not his mother? In that particular verse, it is used by Jesus a few times in the New Testament. Jesus uses that to prove his superiority to all. Just because your superior dosnt mean you are older or came first. Preemience in position is the emphasis, not age. Just my thoughts.
    GOD BLESS

    #3625
     t8 
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    How do you explain the following verses:
    Some I have already mentioned.

    John 1
    15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' ”
    16 From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
    18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

    1:18 Or the Only Begotten
    1:18 Some manuscripts but the only (or only begotten) Son

    John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him. So this verse shows a pre-existance.

    John 8:58
    “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

    Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham, so it is not really hard for me to believe that he was the firstborn in status and in lineage (the 2 usually go together, except in unusual circumstances).

    It seems obvious to me at least that Jesus was the Word and was with God in the beginning and he existed as an Elohim.

    John 1:1
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    John 1:14
    The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.  

    The next verse is clear about Christs pre-existance in glory.

    John 17
    5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    We also know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and it is assumed that Jesus gave the Law. We are also told in Acts:7:30-39 that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the  living words (The Law) to Moses.  

    We are then told in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4

    1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
    2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
    3 They all ate the same spiritual food
    4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

    So the Angel of the Lord is identified as Christ by Paul and this Angel delivered the Law to Moses.

    Ephesians 3
    8 Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
    9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
    10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,

    Perhaps another scripture alluding to Jesus being the 'Wisdom of God'.

    Hebrews 1
    1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
    2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

    The word universe in this scripture means AGE.

    aion {ahee-ohn'}
    1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
    2) the worlds, universe
    3) period of time, age

    We even use the word 'aion' (eon or aeon) in English to refer to Age. So if we read the last part of this verse as AGE, we get the following:
    appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the age.

    John 3
    17 For God did not send (apostello) his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

    apostello {ap-os-tel'-lo}
    1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed
    2) to send away, dismiss
    2a) to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty
    2b) to order one to depart, send off
    2c) to drive away

    There is no mention of the word sent meaning born. It is used in the sense of being sent. To be sent surely implies existance. In fact this word is similar in meaning and sound to the word Apostle (apostolos), which means “one sent forth with orders”.

    Philippians 2
    5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
    6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
    7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

    Surely the above verse assumes pre-existance.

    Luke 10:18
    He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

    When did Jesus see Satan fall from Heaven? Before or after his birth on earth?

    (edited 17-June-03)

    #3602
     GJG 
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    Well done all, a very interesting subject indeed!————This is my first time writing so here goes!
    So far with all that I have read, the closest to scriptural truth seems to be T8 due to the lack of confusing contradictions.  We must all remember that the mystery (God manifest in the flesh) was revealed to Paul and the saints of the early church Eph 3:3-9  Col 1:26.
    In his earlier years Saul(now Paul) was taught my the great teacher Gamellio regarding  the one true living God.  So that Saul believed with all his heart that he was serving God while persecuting the believers of Christ.  However on his way to Damascus Saul had the opportunity to ask his one true God this question:Who are you? Acts 9:5…I AM JESUS…simple.  {if you were to be asked the same question I’m sure you would reply with your own name!}
    Now that God almighty has revealed his only true personal name being Jesus, let us see how Jesus himself answered when he was also asked the same question.
    John 8:23-25 shows us that Jesus is again making a point that he and his father(God) are one and the same.  When asked directly Who are you? Jesus wisely redirects them to scripture of old Isa 41:21-22 (it would have acheived little if they were given the name of the man standing before them).  
    Obviously we all know we would be able to gather a huge number of scripture that shows God to be Jesus, which should also remind us that never before did God have a personal name till the birth of Jesus as this was the one time that God was manifest in created substance;man, a PERSON!  This now raises the question of the Man-God Jesus.  By now I expect some readers will be thinking :what about this…what about that…! Read on!
    To understand Jesus being the name of God we must first understand WHAT God is to then believe WHO God is.   Look these up: Col1:15  1Tim1:17  Heb11:27  Deut33:27  Jer23:24  John4:24 so we now have a simple description of WHAT God is: The Invisible, Eternal, Omnipresent  Spirit that inhabits all of creation!  There is obviously room for only ONE such being!
    The Holy Ghost or Spirit of God is again the very same substance that is God, also this Spirit of God is the same Spirit of Christ 1Pet1:11  1John3:24,4:12-13  Phil1:19.  This same Jesus Christ is refered to as the image of the invisible God Col1:14-15.  Again this Jesus who was recieved up into glory is refered to as God 1Tim3:16.
    So we can easily see that the Holy Ghost is not a separate person (spirit is different substance to a person anyway) but rather, the indwelling substance that is the Spirit of God is the very same substance that inhabits all creation!  
    Lets get back to the MAN-GOD Jesus.  Fully man and fully human is as the scripture rightly puts it: controversial.  Yet if God’s word says it, than we must look at accepting it as absolute truth.  The combination MAN-GOD seems to denote a certain dual nature about Jesus.  As a man he: ate, slept, cried, bled, just like you and I do, yet this mans flesh was pure and without sin.  So that as a created living creature, God could now become that unblemished sacrificial lamb to take away that sin that once seperated us from Him.  When Jesus performed miracles, it was the God within him doing the things which no mere mortal could do.  DIVINITY clothed in HUMANITY!  To believe this we must first find sripture that emphatically agrees with this: Col1:19,2:9.  So now we understand that when the man Jesus prayed, it was his HUMANITY having a need that only his DIVINITY could address.  The substance within Jesus is the very same God of the old testament, unchanging.  
    We now see the one, unchanging, almighty God for what He is, but more importantly who He is, for this reason the scripture tells us: Acts 4:12
    Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
    KJV

    Looking forward to the responses
       

    #3620
     GJG 
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    Hi all

    I’m new to this so I will probably make some mistakes…such as this:

    I put in a post saying i thought that t8 was on the right track,however after reading some other t8 posts I feel I was completely wrong in making that assumption!!

    Sorry guys!

    But I still enjoy reading all the posts because they are so varied and challenging. I mean not to offend you t8.

    look forward to replies!

    #3603
     GJG 
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    Hi all!

    Well done t8 regarding your interesting posts.

    Eternal Jesus?—————– Common sense tells us that in order for one to be a father, one must first produce offspring. For there to be a begotten, there must first again be a begetter! Co-eternal, co-equal as the trinity puts it, not only goes against common sense, but denies scriptual truth.

    All the supposed evidence that supports the so called eternal Jesus is plain and simple: lack of understanding!

    An eternal being that also died makes a total mockery of the true meaning of ETERNAL!

    Remember: For a living being to die, it must first be mortal just as death comes only after birth.

    Please refer to my previous post regarding the man-God Jesus, specifically the way in which His divinity was clothed in divinity.

    As always: Look forward to replies.

    #3621
     GJG 
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    Hi again!

    OOPS! I meant to write ‘His humanity clothed in divinity’

    I’ll get the hang of this posting thing soon!

    carry on……………..

    #3611
     t8 
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    To GJG,

    However on his way to Damascus Saul had the opportunity to ask his one true God this question:Who are you? Acts 9:5…I AM JESUS…simple.  {if you were to be asked the same question I'm sure you would reply with your own name!}

    The way that you have interpreted this, is to say that Paul was asking God for his name. But this is not true. Jesus talked to Paul and asked why he was persecuting him. In that context Paul asked who he was speaking too and acknowleged him as Lord, not God. So your basis for saying that God's name is Jesus is flawed in my opinion.

    Also you say that there are a lot of scriptures that show that Jesus is God. I don't believe this to be so. When you study the scriptures, it becomes obvious that there are a lot of scriptures that say that Jesus is the Son of God, the Christ. But to say that the scriptures say that he is God in many places is incorrect. It simply doesn't say this anywhere.

    Anyway I look forward to yur reply as iron sharpens iron and if we truly search for the truth, then we will also humble ourselves when presented with truth. In other words our reputation should be protected, but not at the expense of truth itself.

    Thanks for your input so far.

    BTW: You can edit your posts. If you make a grammatical or spelling error, then simply click on the edit button to correct.

    #3626
     t8 
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    Luke 3:23-38
    23 Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph,
    24 the son of Heli, the son of Matthat,
    the son of Levi, the son of Melki,
    the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph, ……………………..
    38 the son of Kenan, the son of Enosh,
    the son of Seth, the son of Adam,
    the son of God.

    Now notice how this genealogy is in sequence of time and starts from Jesus Christ and travels backward in time to Joseph and right the way to Adam. After Adam it mentions the Son of God.

    My question is this: Is the Son of God mentioned in verse 38, Yeshua/Jesus or Adam?

    I think it is Adam, but does anyone differ with that view and if so, why?

    #3627
     ringo111 
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    Much Respect to t8

    But something I want to clear up Which was in t8's First post Page one-

    Which was a Claim that Jesus Is the wisdom in Proverbs- Which i find to be untrue.

    There are two types of wisdom-

    (1)The actions someone takes because of what they think is best. (Wisdom)
    (2)The Creature GoD created (Wisdom).

    First-
    (1)The actions someone takes because of what they think is best. (Wisdom)

    Micah 6:9
    Listen! The LORD is calling to the city- and to fear your name is wisdom- “Heed the rod and the One who appointed it.

    *To fear GoD's name is Wisdom-

    Luke 11:49
    Because of this, God in his wisdom said, 'I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.'

    1 Corinthians 1:19
    For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”

    Luke 21:15
    For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict.

    James 3:15
    Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil.

    James 3:17
    But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace­loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere.

    1 Corinthians 1:30
    It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

    *You see that Jesus Is not Wisdom- By believing and obeying his teaching- we can be rightous, holy, and redeemed.

    Revelation 5:12
    In a loud voice they sang: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!”

    *Here we have Jesus Receiving Wisdom- as well as power, wealth, strength, honor , glory, and praise.

    ***********************************

    Before i move to point (2) I want to proove this in scripture

    It says the following quote before the creature (wisdom) is introduced in prov 4:6.

    Proverbs 3:19
    By wisdom the LORD laid the earth's foundations, by understanding he set the heavens in place;

    Genesis 2:4
    This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created. When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens-

    Isaiah 45
    12 It is I who made the earth
    and created mankind upon it.
    My own hands stretched out the heavens;
    I marshaled their starry hosts.

    Revelation 14:7
    He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

    Finally Jesus Testimony.

    Mark 13:19
    because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now–and never to be equaled again.

    *******************************
    On to (2)

    (2) (wisdom) The creature that GoD created.

    Proverbs 4:6
    6 Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you;
    love her, and she will watch over you.

    Proverbs 7:4
    Say to wisdom, “You are my sister,” and call understanding your kinsman;

    *Why say wisdom is Jesus??? Is jesus is a woman??? No!! he is not!! – Also- who is understanding?? why am i calling he my kinsman??- For if Wisdom was ment to be Jesus Wouldnt understanding also be someone?? Id say wisdom is just what She says she is- straight out wisdom.

    Proverbs 8:1
    Does not wisdom call out? Does not understanding raise her voice?

    *Well. Doesnt she??

    Proverbs 8:12
    “I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence; I possess knowledge and discretion.

    *If wisdom is jesus who is prudence?? also, remember understanding.

    ———————————–
    ———————————–

    Now this is Jesus Testimony about the creature/spirit (Wisdom)

    Luke 7:33-35
    33For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, 'He has a demon.' 34The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and “sinners.” ' 35But wisdom is proved right by all her children.”

    Matthew 11:19
    The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and “sinners.” ' But wisdom is proved right by her actions.”

    *Wisdom- proved by “Her” actions!!

    Isaiah 11:2
    The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD –

    Luke 2:40
    And the child grew and became strong; he was filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was upon him.

    *You see the spirit of wisdom was given to Jesus- That is how we learn from Her- Like Jesus learnt from her.

    Keep Searching yo ^_^

    #3628
     ringo111 
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    T8 quote

    Quote

    Luke 10:18
    He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

    When did Jesus see Satan fall from Heaven? Before or after his birth on earth?

    Job 1:7
    The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” Satan answered the LORD , “From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it.”

    *We know that Satan isnt in Heaven at this stage in History- So at this point in history we also have a definate point of reference. Jesus was Alive before this- remember we can be born more than once- Same with Jesus.

    *************************************

    I was going to say, we know satan was the serpent-

    But then i did a search for “serpent” on bible search, and found no reference to satan being the serpent. In Rev It refers to Satan as the “ancient Serpent” But not to him being the serpent in The garden of eden. I found one reference to the serpent in eden, but it only says-

    2 Corinthians 11 3But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ

    *It does not specify who the serpent is- Apart from just a serpent.

    We know its not imposible for animals to speak.

    2 Peter 2:16
    But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey–a beast without speech–who spoke with a man's voice and restrained the prophet's madness.

    Maybe it was normal for animals to speak in the garden of eden?? Lots of other waackey things were normal then, Like no rain, and 1000 year lifespans.

    Genesis 3:1
    Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?”

    Genesis 3:14
    So the LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, “Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life.

    * As you see it refers to the serpent as a wild animal. Not anything else- Not as Satan-

    I find this very strange as I up until now believed that Satan Decieved Eve as the Serpent- But after investigating – At first look I Dont see any evidence to support it. Maybe people liked to think that Something Great Had to have decieved us to begin with. I know Demons can go into animals. Jesus sent the demons into pigs.
    I know that Satan enters people , He entered Judas, And even though it was Satan working through Judas, Judas was held responsible for his actions-
    Now this could be the case for the serpent also. But it not said so in scripture, as far as i can find. If anyone Can proove it was Satan in the serpent, Please let me know-

    We know Satan wasn't the serpent also because Satan is not an animal as described. So yeah- Maybe this Serpent thought needs a thread of its own.

    #3629
     t8 
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    Quote (ringo111 @ Mar. 02 2004,16:22)
    Luke 2:40
    And the child grew and became strong; he was filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was upon him.

    *You see the spirit of wisdom was given to Jesus- That is how we learn from Her- Like Jesus learnt from her.

    Keep Searching yo ^_^

    Jesus also learned truth even though he is the Truth. He was filled with these things perhaps because that is also who he is.

    Proverbs 8:22-30 (English-NIV)
    22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
    23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
    24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
    25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
    26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
    27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
    28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
    29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
    30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,

    The thing about the wisdom scripture is that it refers to wisdom in concept, before verse 22 as it does understanding and like truth in concept, we also know that truth is personified. Anyway the Wisdom scripture changes stance and says “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works” in verse 22 and “I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began” which ties in beautifully with “the beginning of the creation of God” & When there were no oceans, I was given birth.

    So it seems to say that wisdom in concept was given birth or came into being and same with “Then I was the craftsman at his side.”, which ties in seamlessly with God creating all things through his Word/Son. They speak of a personification of wisdom and as I said before, the Wisdom of God is a title that Jesus holds, just as he is called the Truth, even though truth is also a concept.

    However before I go on, I want to say a few of things.

    1) I believe that this belief if true is not foundational and therefore we can have an opinion here.
    2) Jesus as Wisdom personified is not taught outright in scripture, like Jesus being the Son of God and the Messiah is. But if it is true, it is hinted at only.
    3) I can still be in unity with any believer who believes that Jesus is the Christ and has God's Spirit inside him/her, even if we differ on this point.

    Now as I said before, wisdom like truth is a concept or a part of God's nature, but we are told in that wisdom was given birth as the first of God's works. As far as I know, the other concepts like understanding do not have reference to being born, or bought forth. We also know that Jesus has first place in all things and that God created the cosmos through Jesus. So which or who was first? The Word/Christ or Wisdom/wisdom?

    So we see similarities with Wisdom and with the Word/Logos/Pre-existant Yeshua, as far God creating all things through and also as being the first of God's works.

    Wisdom was first and the Logos/Yeshua was first. Maybe they are the same.

    God created the cosmos through Wisdom and the Word.
    Jesus is called the Wisdom of God in the New Testament, just as he is called the Truth and the Life. Both truth and life are concepts and yet they are personified in Christ too.

    E.g.

    1a) Tell me the truth (conceptual).
    1b) I am the Truth (personal)

    2a) Is not wisdom found among the aged? (conceptual)
    2b) Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. (personified)

    In addition to the concept being personified and the personification looking so much like Yeshua in identity, we also see that Wisdom is Christ in other writings outside scripture. The Angel Wisdom is known as Christ in Rick Joyner's 'The Hordes of Hell are Marching', for example.

    Anyway we know that all these good things are from God, e.g. light, truth, love, mercy, patience etc, and we know that Yeshua is the expression of God and that Yeshua is a person (per son=a son). So if Yeshua is the exact representation of the invisible God, then we can see that Yeshua is the light because he is the expression of the invisible God who is light or that God is life, yet we see this life being given to Christ because he is the expression of the invisible God (the image).

    1 Corinthians 15:45
    So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam, a lifegiving spirit.

    or John 5:26
    For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.

    So given the pattern of the good things of God being personified in his son due to him being the full expression of him, it could well be possible without even looking at the Wisdom scripture to understand that Jesus could be wisdom in person as he is all of God's qualities in person. Not the source but the recipent.

    Anyway does such a belief back up the Trinity doctrine, after all Trinitarians use the Wisdom scripture to show that Christ pre-existed and in their minds they use it in their Trinitarian argument to counter Arius's doctrine.

    The answer is no. Such thinking is not Trinitarian at all. If read properly it shows that wisdom was born, i.e had a beginning. When you show Trintarians this, they are stumped or try to change the meaning to being conceptual even though they use it as personal in other arguments. Other Trinitarians explain away the given birth as some kind of eternal state of being born, but lets not go there.

    #3630
     t8 
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    To ringo111,

    Genesis 3:1
    Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?”

    2 Corinthians 11:3
    But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

    Revelation 20:2
    He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

    Yes it is true that the Serpent who deceived Eve may be different to the Ancient Serpent called Satan. But both share similar characteristics such as telling lies and deceiving. In addition we see that the word 'serpent' in the New Testament is referenced as the one who  deceived Eve and is also mentioned as Satan elswhere. I believe as most that it is the same person, but could probably never prove it.

    The Serpent in Genesis is not identified as Satan or the Devil, but then again the word 'Devil' is not mentioned in the Old Testament at all and the word 'Satan' is mentioned only a few times outside of the Book of Job in the Old Testament.

    1 Chronicles 21:1
    Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel

    Psalm 109:6
    Appoint [ 109:6 Or [ They say: ] [ “Appoint ] (with quotation marks at the end of verse 19) ] an evil man [ 109:6 Or [ the Evil One ] ] to oppose him; let an accuser [ 109:6 Or [ let Satan ] ] stand at his right hand.

    Zechariah 3:1
    Then he showed me Joshua [ 3:1 A variant of [ Jeshua ] ; here and elsewhere in Zechariah ] the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD , and Satan [ 3:1 [ Satan ] means [ accuser ] . ] standing at his right side to accuse him.

    Zechariah 3:2
    The LORD said to Satan, “The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD , who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?”  

    Anyway we know that Satan is the Ancient Serpent and perhaps rather than show his true state to Eve, he hid behind a beautiful creature to entice her. Remember that she was very innocent and probably very impressionable.

    Genesis 1:25  
    God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good.

    Genesis 3:14
    The LORD God said to the serpent, “[Deut 28:15-20] Because you have done this, Cursed are you more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you will go, And [Is 65:25; Mic 7:17] dust you will eat All the days of your life;

    #3631
     ringo111 
    Member
    • Topics started 6
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    I hold to this, Because Jesus refers to wisdom as a she.

    The creature/spirit (Wisdom)

    Proverbs 4:6
    Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you; love her, and she will watch over you.

    Proverbs 9:1-2
    1 Wisdom has built her house;
    she has hewn out its seven pillars.
    2 She has prepared her meat and mixed

    Now this is Jesus Testimony about The creature/spirit (Wisdom)

    Luke 7:33-35
    33For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, 'He has a demon.' 34The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and “sinners.” ' 35But wisdom is proved right by all her children.”

    *Jesus refers to himself as a child of Wisdom. Prooving Her right.

    Matthew 11:19
    The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and “sinners.” ' But wisdom is proved right by her actions.”

    *Wisdom- proved by “Her” actions!!

    How can you explain Jesus refering to wisdom as her???

    Or too himself as a child of wisdom, We know that he is the SoN of God, and that John the Baptist is a Man like us. Jesus refers to himself and John in the same sentence as children of wisdom.

    Therefore,  anyone who does what is right is a child of Wisdom.

    —————————————————-

    Yes you can prove to a trinitarian that wisdom was born, if they believe Jesus to be wisdom.

    But they are still mistaken, even if through this mistaken belief they see through the deception of the trinity- they are extreamly close to being right.

    ——————————-

    We know that Jesus and other prophets were known as “gods glory” “Gods Wisdom”, peter was called “rock” Does that make him a physical rock??

    And some others were called “Sons of thunder” Were they born of thunder?? Jesus was said to be called emmanuel “God is with us”

    These are names that describe theyre lives, and not who they are. Also they are metaphores for who they are, but not literally who they are.

    *********************************
    *********************************

    I believe you can believe what you like about GoD as long as you carry out the commands that he gave us through his servant Jesus Christ-

    His commands are- if you believe(repent) – Get baptised – (repent)Obey his teachings, love your neighbour as yourself. To love our christian bro's and Bu's as Jesus Loved.

    Any incorrect teaching serves as a stumpling block to people believing. In time im sure something will be dirived as a major problem out of any miss-belief.

    What matters is if you accept people and Love them.

    **************************************
    **************************************

    Now about the serpent in the garden of eden.

    Nice work ^^

    I thought of this scripture.

    1 John 3:8
    He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.

    *Now- It seems like satan had something to do with the serpent in the garden of eden.

    If what the serpent did is considered sinfull, then Satan must have been apart of it, according to this scripture.

    Thats if the beginning is considered to be the beginning of the world.

    I say this because obviously the disciples had not been with Jesus since the beggining of creation.

    John 15:27
    And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.

    #3632
     t8 
    Participant
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    I forgot to say this:

    The word 'she' is often used when talking about objects or concepts. We even do it today when we talk about things like our house, boat, even the wind for example. When 'he' is used it is usually used in reference to a person.

    Wisdom is referenced as 'she' in the conceptual part of the scripture and then as a 'he' or man after Wisdom is given birth and brought forth.

    E.g. “I was the craftsman at his side” is masculine and the feminine is only mentioned before Wisdom was given birth.

    Before the birth or bringing forth, wisdom must be a concept or a quality of God that resides within God. The masculine is invoked after the birth/bring forth perhaps because the word son is masculine.

    Just my thoughts. I will read your last post fully tommorrow, it is getting late now.

    #3633
     ringo111 
    Member
    • Topics started 6
    • Total replies 169

    How is this she(wisdom) different to when she writings refer to other women?? when it uses the same word “she” to describe other women??

    So when Jesus refers to wisdom as she,
    Why do you say she isnt really a woman, and Wisdom is an object?? Can an object have children??  Jesus claims wisdom has children.

    Just because people use “she” as a name for objects. Doesnt make wisdom fall under that catergory. How many objects do you know of, that call out to the steets(mens Hearts)???

    OK, If we used your logic- say – for Jesus testomony about wisdom.

    Are you then saying that Jesus is refering to himself and John the baptist as children of a dead object??
    Or do you want to say that Jesus is a Dead object and he is the child of himself and the father of John at the same time???
    Or that a dead object has actions??

    Which one??

    ****************************

    As for me- I'll take Jesus word for it when he says.

    Luke 7:33-35
    33For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, 'He has a demon.' 34The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and “sinners.” ' 35 But wisdom is proved right by all her children.”

    Matthew 11:19
    The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and “sinners.” ' But wisdom is proved right by her actions.”

    #3634
     t8 
    Participant
    • Topics started 901
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    Hi ringo111,

    nice picture/avatar BTW.

    I am saying that 'she' is used when it is referring to wisdom in concept and in the masculine when talking about a person. Another regularity when personifying something is the article. E.g The Truth is different to 'truth'. One is a person and the other a quality.

    I personally do not see that wisdom is a woman because it uses 'she', but that the use of 'she' is in the context like “she is beautiful” when talking about a boat for example. To differentiate between the concept/quality and the person it seems logical to use she and he, or masculine and feminine. When we say 'he' or 'craftsman' we are talking of a person, but 'she' is not always referring to a person.

    We also see many other things/concepts/qualities that are personified in Christ as he is the full expression in person of his Father and God. He is his image. E.g bread is food, yet Jesus is the bread of life.

    John 6:32-33
    Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

    We also see that God the Father is using his Son to bring all things under Christ in order that God can be in all.

    Ephesians 1:10
    to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment, to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

    So even the wisdom of this world is being made subject to Christ that the wisdom of God will prevail and the wisdom of the world is made foolish and is passing away. God will be in all and is this not the same thing as Satan being thrown into the Lake of Fire and Jesus reigning on the throne of God. The wisdom of this world will be superceeded by the wisdom of God, just as Christ will rule over all, even where Satan now rules. We see the concept and the personification of this battle. We also know that the wisdom of this world is devilish and comes from the god of this age. So again we can see the concept and the personification of that concept.

    God's redemption is full and will restore all things back to perfection so that a new heavens and earth will exist where sin has never dwelt. If we see this redemption in a linear fashion, we can see that all things were perfect in the beginning, before sin and will be once again. So if all things are being redeemed in Christ, then perhaps all things were in him as the expression of the one who created all good things. This of course would have to include wisdom and surely Christ would have to be the Wisdom of God in person in order to fully reflect his invisible Father to creation of whom wisdom originated.

    We see wisdom in 2 ways, by it's fruit (quality) and in the person of Christ (identity). If we say that Jesus is not wisdom in person, then are we saying that he is not fully reflecting his God to us?

    Here are some things that wisdom represents compared with who Christ is.

    a) She is a tree of life
    b) Jesus said “I am the life”

    a) all her paths are peace
    b) And he will be called ………Prince of Peace

    a) The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth
    b) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    a) So shall they be life unto thy soul
    b) Jesus said “I am the life”

    a) and grace to thy neck
    b) For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

    a) I have taught thee in the way of wisdom; I have led thee in right paths
    b) Jesus said “I am the way/path”

    a) I lead in the way of righteousness
    b) It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God, that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

    a) How much better is it to get wisdom than gold!
    b) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

    Now also read these scriptures:

    Psalms 104:24
    O LORD, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches.

    & Psalms 136:5
    To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.

    with John 1:1-4
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. {2} The same was in the beginning with God. {3} All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

    & Prov 24:3
    Through wisdom is an house builded; and by understanding it is established:

    So the things/qualities of God can be seen in creation and are fully represented in Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

    Perhaps we can now read the next 2 scriptures in a better light.

    1 Corinthians 1:24
    But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the Wisdom of God.

    & Colossians 1:15-17
    15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
    17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
    18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

    I sometimes wonder if we were originally the thoughts of God and then given a free will, so that we become unique from God and are able to choose our own destiny. And that each of us is given a quality or qualities of God that we are meant to shine. To one is wisdom, to another is mercy and another charity. But Jesus being the firstborn and the supreme son has all these qualities of God in his person and these qualities are given by God by his Spirit and through Christ our Lord to us in different measure.

    #3635
     ringo111 
    Member
    • Topics started 6
    • Total replies 169

    So what if wisdom has some of the qualities that Jesus also has.

    This does not make her(wisdom) to be Jesus.
    Jesus says she(wisdom) has children- That wisdom makes actions.

    And besides this- In proverbs- Wisdom is not said to be Hung on a tree- or a sacrifice for sin- wisdom is not called the son of the most high GoD, The lord or anything Like Jesus position- she directs people to Jesus who directs them to GoD.

    You see – Wisdom guided Jesus and John- They learned from her- But were not Her. This is why Jesus did many things that wisdom does because Jesus was a child of her in the way that anyone who does what she says is her child.

    Much the same as Any woman is a child of Sarah if they do what is right.

    1 Peter 3:6
    like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.

    and Just as jesus says-

    Matthew 12:50
    For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

    John and Jesus listened to wisdom- John and Jesus are not wisdom.

    The same as Jesus, he said what GoD told him to say- Jesus is not GoD

    The same with the disciples- they told us what Jesus said- they were not Jesus

    The same with anyone who speaks by the holy spirit- The holy spirit tells them what to say- they are not the holy spirit

    The same with the holy spirit- God tells Him what to say- the holy spirit is not GoD

    **********

    You say that when Jesus refers- or anyone refers to wisdom- or if wisdom herself refers to herself- that none of them are actually refering to a person? but a lifeless object like a boat?

    Quote
    I personally do not see that wisdom is a woman because it uses 'she', but that the use of  'she' is in the context like “she is  beautiful” when talking about a boat for example.

    Inconsistancies!

    You are then calling wisdom a boat(object). Ill Use Object instead of boat

    Matthew 11:19
    Wisdom is proved right by her actions.

    Jesus is not refering to Wisdom as something beautiful Like you said above- But that she is made right by her actions(doing)

    -Now I guess here you could say- Jesus might have been refering to Wisdom as we would a car- “She handles well”  

    -or I guess you could say- a boat could look like its alive- because it moves , but is just controlled. But applied incorrectly to the spirit of wisdom.

    *So Id say this is why Jesus says another thing about wisdom. For people like us who really want to know who wisdom is.

    Jesus Testifies that he is a child of wisdom also with John-

    Luke 7:35
    But wisdom is proved right by all her children.

    Not to Mention Wisdoms claims about herself , It not only says describes her. But She says things.

    You see wisdom was working through Jesus and john the baptist.

    ————–

    You say Jesus refered to Wisdom as an object-

    Then how can Jesus be wisdom, if according to you he calls wisdom an object(boat)?

    This is a contradiction, Which one is wisdom in this scripture?? like a boat(object) or Jesus??

    ————–

    Wisdom is who Jesus says she is – and who she wisdom says she is.

    This Isiah scripture is talking about Jesus recieveing the spirit of wisdom- Please, Please think about this point-

    Isaiah 11:2
    The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD –

    Look These are the other spirits that wisdom refers to in proverbs-

    You see she has actions- and is a spirit-

    Proverbs 4:6
    Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you; love her, and she will watch over you.

    Proverbs 9:1-2
    1 Wisdom has built her house;
    she has hewn out its seven pillars.
    2 She has prepared her meat and mixed

    ——————————–

    Here are more exaples of Men having wisdom- But is not the wisdom that GoD Gives-

    Proverbs 19:11
    A man's wisdom gives him patience; it is to his glory to overlook an offense.

    1 Corinthians 1:19
    For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”

    *GoD will destroy wisdom of the wise.

    1 Corinthians 3:19
    For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness”

    1 Corinthians 2:13
    This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words

    *This prooves there are more uses for the word wisdom-
    ————–

    Also in an earlier Post I allready prooved that God , Jesus , Men, angels, satan. All have wisdom of theyre own-

    And there is a seperate Creature/spirit who GoD made called Wisdom, who also gives wisdom.

    But wisdom comes from other sources. Like satans wisdom. That is the knowledge he posseses.

    —————————-
    ————-

    You used this scripture to support your position

    Quote

    Psalms 136:5
    To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.

    Prov 24:3  
    Through wisdom is an house builded; and by understanding it is established:

    Isaiah 45
    12 It is I who made the earth
    and created mankind upon it.
    My own hands stretched out the heavens;
    I marshaled their starry hosts.

    Jesus testimony-

    Mark 13:19
    because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now–and never to be equaled again.

    Revelation 14:7
    He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

    * You see that where your quotes are saying by wisdom and understanding the world was made-

    That is by GoD's own Wisdom and understanding, because He says he made It all by himself.

    * NOT with the help of his creations, the spirit Wisdom or the Spirit understanding-

    You see whether wisdom was there or not- God still did it all by his own.

    **** In conclusion****

    *- Wisdom is a being –
       Wisdom is called a “Her” “she” “spirit”

    *also wisdom is a something you obtain through life- or because you are smart- or stupid- Everyone has they're own Wisdom.

    *Jesus and John acted by wisdoms direction, and that they were her children- Just as any woman who takes sarah's example is a daughter of sarah.

    *Jesus called wisdom “Her”

    #3636
     t8 
    Participant
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    To ringo111,

    Quote
    This does not make her (wisdom) to be Jesus.
    Jesus says she(wisdom) has children- That wisdom makes actions.

    And besides this- In proverbs- Wisdom is not said to be Hung on a tree- or a sacrifice for sin- wisdom is not called the son of the most high GoD, The lord or anything Like Jesus position- she directs people to Jesus who directs them to GoD.

    I don't feel like you are giving me a fair hearing on this one. I explained before that wisdom is a quality and is referred to as she. When wisdom was given birth, he was known as a he/man to give the understanding that we are talking of a person. So this point should explain how I understand your quote above. In other words wisdom is a quality from God that we and even Christ should have. We also have to remember that Christ came to this earth as a man who emptied himself of his former glory to be like us in every way except sin.

    Your second point about Wisdom not being hung on a tree is true, but it also doesn't say that Way, Truth, Life will hang on a tree either, so I feel it is irrelevant. These qualities are what Jesus is in identity and we know that Jesus hung on a tree for us and yet is still the Truth and the Life, even though it doesn't say that the Life will hang on a tree.

    So Ringo I feel that in order to test a teaching you need to first of all understand the teaching and then you need to give it a fair go using scripture and the Spirit of God to guide you. But if you make arguments even accusations that do not change what I have said one bit, I can only come to 2 conclusions about that.

    1) You have a pre-defined belief about who Wisdom (she) is and this blocks you from seeing what I am saying. Like the Trintarian who's predefined belief in a triune God blinds him from seeing that there is one God, or

    2) You truly do not understand what I am saying.

    If you do indeed have a predefined belief (which is ok, so long as it doesn't blind you), then lets here it. But I am willing to also give you the benefit of the doubt and consider that you do not understand what I am saying, so I will spell it out in simple terms so that there is no mistake.

    1) Wisdom as Christ is not a foundational teaching and therefore I believe that we can have an opinion here and remain in unity if we differ.
    2) Jesus Christ as the Logos was the first to come forth from God. He is the image of God and expresses the fullness of God in his being, but is not that God that he expresses. Rather he is his image.
    3) Wisdom is a quality of God and Jesus personifes that quality just as he personifies all God's qualities. Jesus is divine in nature. So wisdom defines Christ, just as power and truth do.
    4) The Logos was with God in the beginning and came from God before there was anything created.
    5) Wisdom was the first of God's works and I personally think that the Logos, the Christ, the Son, the only begotten, the Truth, the Way and the Life are all the same person, namely Jesus of Nazareth called the Christ.

    He was before Abraham and he was before all created things.

    As the scripture says, no one can see God, but the only begotten at his side is the only one who can declare him. So if we see wisdom it is first and primarliy through Christ that we see this quality and in creation second.

    We see all God's qualities in Jesus person. So I feel all that you said in your last post doesn't challenge what I have said at all and therefeore I do not need to take each your points one at a time and counter them.

    Of course I am teachable and willing to change if truth is presented to me, please do not get me wrong. I am so willing to change and to align myself with truth, after all if I do not, then I am the one who will lose. I will even go as far as apologising to all I have given false teaching to, in order that all the works that such a teaching sows will be undone if possible. I put truth before myself, I am a servant of truth. But in order for me to do this, you have to convince me and your argument so far has missed the target with what I have said, so of course I have no reason yet to believe otherwise. Of course all teachers should guard their doctrine closely as teachers will be judged more severly than others because teachers can open doors or place stumbling blocks with their words.

    Anyway to conclude this post I have decided to include the words of Tertullian who wrote this following quote in the 200s and Tatian who wrote 165 A.D. You will notice the references to Logos and Wisdom. I read this after my last post to you and it basically says what I am saying. So maybe they can say it better than me.

    Tertillian
    The object of our worship is the One God, He who by His commanding Word, His arranging Wisdom, His Mighty Power, brought forth out of nothing the entire substance of our world, with all its array of elements, bodies, spirits, for the glory of His majesty, whence also the Greeks have given it the name of kosmos. (Apology, 17).

    For from the first He sent messengers into the world, men whose spotless righteousness made them worthy to know the Most High, and to reveal Him… that they might proclaim There is one God only who made all things. (Apology, 18).

    Accordingly, he appeared among us, whose coming to renew and illuminate man's nature was foreproclaimed by God, mean Christ, the Son of God. And so the Supreme Head and Master of this grace and discipline, the Enlightener and Trainer of humanity, God's own Son, was announced among us. (Apology, 21).

    Christ… the Power of God, and the Spirit of God, as the Word, the Reason, the Wisdom, and the Son of God. (Apology, 23).

    Tatian
    God was in the beginning, but the beginning, we have been taught, is the power of the Word. For the Lord of the universe, who is Himself the necessary basis of all being, inasmuch as no creature was yet in existence, was alone, but inasmuch as He was all powerful, Himself the necessary ground of things visible and invisible, with Him were all things; with Him, by Word-power, the Word himself also, who was in Him, subsists. And by His simple will the Word sprang forth, and the Word, not coming forth in vain, became the firstbegotten work of the Father . Him [the Word] we know to be the Beginning of the world (cf. Rev. 3:14). But He came into being by participation, not by cutting off, for what is cut off is separated from the original substance, but that which comes by participation, making its choice of function, does not render him deficient from whom it is taken. For just as from one torch many fires are lighted, but the light of the first torch is not lessened by the kindling of many torches, so the Word, coming forth from the Word-Power of the Father, has not divested of the Word-Power Him who begat Him. I myself, for instance, speak [words], and you hear, yet, certainly, I who converse do not become destitute of my word, by the transmission of speech, but by the utterance of my voice I endeavour to reduce to order the unarranged matter in your minds. And as the Word begotten in the beginning, begat in turn our world, having first created for himself the necessary matter, so also I, in imitation of the Word, being begotten again, and having become possessed of the truth, am trying to reduce to order the confused matter which is kindred with myself. For matter is not, like God, without beginning, nor, as having no beginning, is of equal power with God, it is begotten, and not produced by any other being, but brought into existence by the Framer of all things alone (Address to the Greeks, 5).

    For the heavenly Word, Spirit emanating from the Father and a Word of the Word-Power, in imitation of
    the Father who begat him made man an image of immortality, so that, as incorruption is with God, in like manner, man, sharing in a part of God, might have the immortal principle also. The Word, too, before the creation of men, was the Framer of angels.

    #3637
     Ramblinrose 
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