Trinity (Part 2)

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  • #107236
     NickHassan 
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    Hi WJ,
    The old trinity routine eh?
    Muddy the water for others then advise them to buy your evil plonk.

    #107237
     WorshippingJesus 
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    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 15 2008,12:03)
    Hi WJ,
    The old trinity routine eh?
    Muddy the water for others then advise them to buy your evil plonk.


    NH

    Thats what I thought!

    :)

    #107238
     martian 
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    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,11:59)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 15 2008,11:55)
    Hi WJ,
    Still confused between the Father and Son?
    He did not tell anyone to teach trinity and neither did the prophets speaking for God.
    So who is your Lord as you seem to be walking a path not recommended for you by God?


    MH'

    How many masters can you serve NH?

    ???


    One master and one God. One master and teacher anointed by God and apointed as head of the church. One God who is over all including Jesus my master.

    #107239
     WorshippingJesus 
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    Quote (ronday888 @ Jan. 15 2008,11:58)

    Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 14 2008,13:04)

    Quote
    (4) Jesus does not share the attribute of being the Creator with his God and Father. — Mark 10:16; 13:19


    Incorrect – John 1:3, 1 Cor 8:5, Col 1:16, Heb 1:2, Heb 1:10.


    Hebrews 1:10 – and, `Thou, at the beginning, Lord, the earth didst found, and a work of thy hands are the heavens.”

    Out of all the scriptures given, this is the only scripture that does not use words that directly show that Jesus, in his prehuman existence, was the agent of Yahweh in the creation being spoken of. Indeed, Jesus, being the agent of Yahweh in the creation of the “earth” and the “heavens” being spoken of, did found the “earth”, and heavens are a work of his figurative hands. We should certainly not take this scripture in isolation from the rest of the Bible, but rather view it in harmony with the rest of the Bible.

    http://godandson.reslight.net/heb-1-1-10.html

    In service of Jesus and his God,
    Ronald


    Ron

    Yes you are right, if we compare Heb 1:10 with John 1:3 then it gives us a clear picture of who Yeshua is.

    Unless you believe in another creator than YHWH!

    NIV – Jhn 1:3 – Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
    New International Version © 1973, 1978, 1984 International Bible Society

    Let me repeat this part…

    without him nothing was made that has been made.

    Everything was made by and through him.

    Nothing came into existence without him.

    So how does this match up to your claim that Jesus is the agent that God used for just man or dirt?

    In the beginning God created the Heavens and the earth! Gen 1:1

    Hebrews 1:10 – and, `Thou, at the beginning, Lord, the earth didst found, and a work of thy hands are the heavens.”

    Col 1:16
    For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; *all things* were created by him and for him.
    17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    Wow! A Spirit filled man holds all things together in himself.

    Kinda matches Heb 1:3

    …All things are upheld by the word of “His Power”

    Jesus is just a mere man? Give me a break!

    :D

    #107240
     t8 
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    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,11:59)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 15 2008,11:55)
    Hi WJ,
    Still confused between the Father and Son?
    He did not tell anyone to teach trinity and neither did the prophets speaking for God.
    So who is your Lord as you seem to be walking a path not recommended for you by God?


    MH'

    How many masters can you serve NH?

    ???


    Well let's see. We should obey the law for a start.
    And the law is of God.

    We should obey the one whom God made both Lord and Christ.

    We should obey our elders.

    Ultimately, we should obey all that God has instituted.

    God is the master of all.

    Simple stuff when your mind isn't clouded by the Trinity doctrine.

    #107241
     WorshippingJesus 
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    Quote (martian @ Jan. 15 2008,12:18)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,11:59)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 15 2008,11:55)
    Hi WJ,
    Still confused between the Father and Son?
    He did not tell anyone to teach trinity and neither did the prophets speaking for God.
    So who is your Lord as you seem to be walking a path not recommended for you by God?


    MH'

    How many masters can you serve NH?

    ???


    One master and one God. One master and teacher anointed by God and apointed as head of the church. One God who is over all including Jesus my master.


    Martian

    So you have more than one master?

    So let me see if I have this right. You have 2 masters and 2 Lords.

    Matt 6:24
    No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

    Jesus clearly says you cant have 2 masters. Money, Idols, lords, gods, etc.

    ???

    #107242
     kenrch 
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    Well all though I believe there are more important matters such as those teaching that Jesus isn't even the Messiah, I'll play! :)

    WJ it seems there are two Gods? One who thinks and one who creates. The WORD was GOD. Scripture says that the WORD was God not HIS SON.

    Then the Word became flesh. Does that mean that the Word God became flesh? When the Word God became flesh the Word gave up being Word God to become as we are flesh born under the law.

    Now for the first time God had a Son Jesus son of man born of God and the Word-God dwelling in Him.

    So it seems that the Word God was less God ~than GOD~.

    The son of man was born without sin having his own spirit who gave himself completely to the Word-God. The word God is not the Son of God. The Word God is the same as before the son of man. It is Jesus the son of man in total submission to the Word God that is the Son of God. Just as we His brethren are to become.

    But who then is the Holy Spirit? I believe the Holy Spirit is Jesus. The son of man's spirit that became Holy after His resurrection. “unless Jesus was resurrected then the helper would not come”. Call upon Jesus and who shows up?

    There are still unanswered questions like the Holy Spirit coming upon Jesus as a dove. So now what?

    :laugh:

    #107243
     t8 
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    Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 15 2008,12:25)
    Now for the first time God had a Son…


    What about Adam?

    #107244
     WorshippingJesus 
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    kenrch

    You say…

    Quote

    Then the Word became flesh.  Does that mean that the Word God became flesh?  When the Word God became flesh the Word gave up being Word God to become as we are flesh born under the law.

    So God ceased to be God? So the eternal Word changed? God changed?

    No God didnt change because Jesus is the Word/God, God tabernacled among us, Jn 1:14. Phil 2, He took on the likeness of sinfull flesh. God lived in a flesh tent that died and rose again.

    The Lord from heaven the second Adam returned to his previous Glory that he shared as God. He was and is the Word/God that was with God and is God.

    :)

    #107245
     t8 
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    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,12:31)
    The Lord from heaven the second Adam returned to his previous Glory that he shared as God.


    Nice try, but this statement is incorrect.

    He returned to the glory that he had WITH the Father, not AS God as you have said.

    See how the Trinity Doctrine clouds your mind? This is a small example of many.

    #107246
     acertainchap 
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    Quote (martian @ Jan. 15 2008,12:18)
    One master and one God. One master and teacher anointed by God and apointed as head of the church. One God who is over all including Jesus my master.


    Very good, martian. :)

    #107247
     WorshippingJesus 
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    Quote (t8 @ Jan. 15 2008,12:39)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,12:31)
    The Lord from heaven the second Adam returned to his previous Glory that he shared as God.


    Nice try, but this statement is incorrect.

    He returned to the glory that he had WITH the Father, not AS God as you have said.

    See how the Trinity Doctrine clouds your mind? This is a small example of many.


    t8

    Jn 1:1
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    This was where he shared the Fathers Glory isnt it?

    Or does your doctrine disagree with the 3rd verse that says nothig came into being without him?

    ???

    #107248
     NickHassan 
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    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,12:31)
    kenrch

    You say…

    Quote

    Then the Word became flesh.  Does that mean that the Word God became flesh?  When the Word God became flesh the Word gave up being Word God to become as we are flesh born under the law.

    So God ceased to be God? So the eternal Word changed? God changed?

    No God didnt change because Jesus is the Word/God, God  tabernacled among us, Jn 1:14. Phil 2, He took on the likeness of sinfull flesh. God lived in a flesh tent that died and rose again.

    The Lord from heaven the second Adam returned to his previous Glory that he shared as God. He was and is the Word/God that was with God and is God.

    :)


    Hi WJ,
    Was Jesus just a flesh tent then?

    #107249
     ronday888 
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    Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 14 2008,13:04)

    Quote
    (5) Jesus does not share the attribute of being only true God who sent Jesus. — John 17:1,3.


    John 17:3 does not explicitly say Yeshua is not true God.

    second post down.


    It should be noted that Yahweh [Jehovah] is the name applied to the Supreme Being – our Father, and Him whom Jesus called Father and God. — John 17:1,3: 20:17; Psalm 110:1; Matthew 22:43-45; 26:64; Mark 12:35-37; Luke 20:41-44; Acts 2:34; 7:55: Romans 8:34; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 1:13; 10:12,13; 1 Peter 3:22.

    All through the scriptures, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel) is distinguished from the Jesus, who was sent by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

    Since Jesus contrasts himself with the only true God who sent him, Jesus is, indeed, denying that he was or is the only true God who sent him. The arguments given in the post referred to simply sidetrack what Jesus was saying to make it appear that Jesus did not say what he did say.

    The Father is the only true God [Might, Power] from which all might and power is derived. Jesus, being sent by this only true God, is not the only true God who sent him. Jesus. Nevertheless, like Moses in Exodus 7:1, the angels in Psalm 8:5, and the sons of God (Psalm 82:6,7) — receives his power and authority from the only true Supreme Being. Psalm 82:6,7 is the scripture Jesus in his defense in John 10:34,35, and he there uses the Greek word THEOI – gods — as a translation of the Hebrew ELOHIM. By this reference, Jesus shows that the narrow definition that the Jews were giving the expression “Son of God” does not mean equal to God, any more than the Hebraic usage of ELOHIM when applied to the “sons of God to whom the Word came” means that these “sons of God” were equal to God. But as used in the strict, absolute sense of Supreme Power, the Supreme Being, Jesus states very straightforwardly in John 17:1-3 that his God, his Father, is the only true God, and then excludes himself from being that only true God by saying that he was sent by that only true God.

    Of course, I do not believe that John 17:3 excludes Jesus from deity, as that term would be defined by Hebraic usage of the Hebrew words EL and ELOHIM, but it does exclude him from being the ultimate Power Source — Supreme Being, the Most High, the One who sent him. Nevertheless, his being excluded from being the Supreme Being does not exclude him from the power as deity {EL, ELOHIM, THEOS} that is given to Jesus by Yahweh, his Father.

    The Hebrew words EL and ELOHIM are not always used of Yahweh, the only true God. Remembering their basic meaning of “might, power or strength”, they are legitimately used of any to whom Yahweh has given special power or might. That the word EL is thus used may be readily seen by anyone who will carefully note the following texts from the King James Version, in which English translations of the Hebrew word El are in denoted by *..*: “It is in the *power* of my hand.” (Genesis 31:29) “There shall be no *might* in thine hand.” (Deuteronomy 28:32) “Neither is it in our *power*.” (Nehemiah 5:5) “Like the *great* mountains.” (Psalm 36:6) “In the *power* of thine hand to do it.” (Proverbs 3:27) “Pray unto *a god* [mighty one] that cannot save.” (Isaiah 45:20) “Who among the sons of the *mighty*.” (Psalm 89:6) “God standeth in the congregation of the *mighty*.” (Psalm 82:1) “Who is like unto thee, O Lord [Yahweh] among the *Gods* [mighty ones or ruling ones]?” (Exodus 15:11) “Give unto the Lord [Yahweh] of ye *mighty*.” (Psalm 29:1) “The *mighty* God even the Lord [Yahweh].” — Psalm 50:1. “”The *strong* among the mighty”. — Ezekiel 32:21.

    How about the Hebrew word ELOHIM; is its usage only legitimately used of the Most High, Yahweh? No. Exodus 4:16 relates that Moses would as ELOHIM [a mighty one] to Aaron. (Exodus 4:16) We find that the scriptures say that Yahweh himself made Moses ELOHIM [greater might] to Pharaoh. (Exodus 7:1) Man is a little lower than the angels who are called ELOHIM. (Psalm 8:5 — compare Hebrews 2:9). In Psalm 82:6,7 the “sons of God” are called ELOHIM – mighty ones. (See John 10:34,35; 1 John 3:2) The wicked spirit that impersonated Samuel is also called ELOHIM. (1 Samuel 28:13) Other scriptures that are possibly referring to angels or human rulers as ELOHIM: Psalm 86:6-8; 95:3; 50:1; Psalm 82:6,7. Furthermore, the KJV renders forms of the word ELOHIM in various manners in the following scriptures: “a *mighty* prince” (Genesis 23:6) “And Rachel said, With *great* wrestlings have I wrestled with my sister, and I have prevailed: and she called his name Naphtali.” (Genesis 30:8) “It was a very *great* trembling.” (1 Samuel 14:15) “Now Nineveh was an *exceeding* great city of three days' journey.” — Jonah 3:3.

    The scriptures plainly show that Yahweh is the Supreme “El” and rules over all other ones called “el” – powerful ones. In the absolute sense, there is not any other EL – Might — besides him (Isaiah 44:6; 45:5,21), since he is the source of all power, all mightiness, and there is no power or might in the universe that does originate from him. Even the demons have their power or might from Yahweh, although they do misuse their power. It is this that makes the “nature” of what is EL, that is, strength, might, power. Thus idols, having no power of their own, are by nature not gods. — Galatians 4:8

    Jesus, however, did not just say that the Father is God; Jesus plainly states that he was sent by his Father, and identifies his Father as the only true God, the only true Power, and then distinguishes himself from that only true God by saying that he was sent by the only true God. Yahweh, the God and Father is the only true Power because there is no power apart from him. Even the demons receive their power from Yahweh, although they misuse the power that they have. After stating that the Father is the only true God, Jesus then states that he was sent by this only true God, thus he is not this only true God who sent him.

    Who is the only true God? Of course, the scriptures identify the true God as Yahweh (Jehovah), the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, and the prophets. (Jeremiah 10:10; 42:5) Jesus identified the God he prayed to as the same God as that of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. (Luke 20:37; John 8:54; 17:1,3) Who sent the prophets? None other than Yahweh, the Father of Jesus. (Judges 6:8; 1 Samuel 3:20; 1 Kings 16:12; 2 Kings 14:25; 17:3; 2 Chronicles 25:15; Jeremiah 28:12; 37:2,6; 46:1; Ezekiel 14:4; Hosea 12:13; Haggai 1:3,12; 2:1,10; Zechariah 1:1; Acts 3:8) It is this same Yahweh — the only true God, the God and Father of Jesus – who also sent Jesus, and who is therefore the God and Father of Jesus. — Matthew 23:39; Mark 11:9,10; Luke 13:35; John 3:2,17; 5:19,43; 6:57; 7:16,28; 8:26,28,38; 10:25; 12:49,50; 14:10; 15:15; 17:8,26; Hebrews 1:1,2; Revelation 1:1.

    It is claimed that Jesus was not there trying to draw an ontological comparison in John 17:3 with his God and Father. Of course, this whole ontological argument only applies if one accepts the trinitarian definitions applied to “nature”, etc. Scripturally, the “nature” of being deity is the special might, power, etc., that is possessed by the deity, and, and while it could be used in the sense of designating such might in the being of the one who possesses the might, as I have shown from the scriptures, the words used in the Bible do not necessarily express the substance, the bein
    g, of the one who possesses such deity. However, by the expression the only true God, Jesus expresses an absolute sense in which his Father is such Power, Strength, Might, and then excludes himself from sharing in that exclusive might by stating that he was sent by One who possesses that exclusive might.

    Yes, the God and Father of Jesus is indeed in a unique category, an utterly unique being; and that is what Jesus expressed in John 17:3. Jesus is not the savior in the exclusive sense that it applies only to Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus is not the King in the exclusive sense that it only applies to Yahweh, whose throne in the heavens as been in existence before Jesus is given his kingship. Yes, Jesus is the “only lord” appointed by God over the church, and who has become “lord” of both the living and dead. However, Jesus never has, and never will, possess the title “Lord” in the most exclusive sense that it only belongs to Yahweh.

    I will, Yahweh willing, return to address some of the points and scriptures presented in Is 1:18's post of Mar. 21 2007,16:58.

    In service of Jesus and his God,

    Ronald

    #107250
     ronday888 
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    Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 14 2008,13:04)

    Quote
    (6) Jesus does not share the attribute of being “God of gods” with his God and Father.
    http://tinyurl.com/2gbjxj


    Where is the verse that says the Father of Yeshua is the God of gods, to the exclusion of Yeshua?

    Quote
    (7) Jesus does not share the attribute of being “God Almighty” with his God and Father.
    http://tinyurl.com/2b8qf5


    Which verse proves this?


    In both points, the questions should not be where are there scriptures to prove that Jesus is not “God of gods” or that his is not “God Almighty”, but the questions should be where are the scriptures that show that he is God of gods, and that he is “God Almighty”? The default reasoning is that since the one whom Jesus claimed as his God, his Supreme Being, is not that Supreme Being whom he speaks of as his Supreme Being.

    In service of Jesus and his God,
    Ronald

    #107251
     kenrch 
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    Quote (t8 @ Jan. 15 2008,12:30)

    Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 15 2008,12:25)
    Now for the first time God had a Son…


    What about Adam?


    Adam was not born!

    #107252
     ronday888 
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    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,06:25)

    So the Most High needed a man to create all things through?

    The question, “So the Most High needed a man to create all things through?” has no relation to anything I said, since I never said that the Most High need a man to create all things through.

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,06:25)

    Your interpretation of John three is a distortion of the truth.

    KJV
    All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
    King James Version 1611, 1769

    NKJV – Jhn 1:3 – All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
    New King James Version © 1982 Thomas Nelson

    NLT – Jhn 1:3 – He created everything there is. Nothing exists that he didn't make.
    New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust

    NIV – Jhn 1:3 – Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
    New International Version © 1973, 1978, 1984 International Bible Society

    ESV – Jhn 1:3 – All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
    The Holy Bible, English Standard Version © 2001 Crossway Bibles

    NASB – Jhn 1:3 – All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
    New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman Foundation

    RSV – Jhn 1:3 – all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.
    Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952.

    ASV – Jhn 1:3 – All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.
    American Standard Version 1901 Info

    Young – Jhn 1:3 – all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.
    Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 Info

    Darby – Jhn 1:3 – All things received being through him, and without him not one [thing] received being which has received being.
    J.N.Darby Translation 1890 Info

    Webster – Jhn 1:3 – All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
    Noah Webster Version 1833 Info

    HNV – Jhn 1:3 – All things were made through him. Without him was not anything made that has been made.

    These translations represent over 600 Greek scholars.

    Yet you disagree with them.

    It is not that I actually disagree with all of these, some I would disagree with as misrepresenting what is said in the Greek. Most the translations presented, rightly understood in relation to the Greek, the context and the rest of Bible, do not disagree with what I said. However, taken out of context and viewed in isolation, and by applying the wrong meanings to the words involved, one can come to the wrong conclusions.

    The word “by”, for instance, has many different meanings in English, and not all of those meanings are represented in the Greek word forms of “dia”. Only the prepositional usages of “by” are related to the word “dia”, and then only as in the meanings of the word the English word “by” that denote “the channel of an act.”

    Crosswalk's online Greek dictionary gives the following as the definitions of the preposition “dia”.

    through
    of place
    with
    in
    of time
    throughout
    during
    of means
    by
    by the means of
    through
    the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
    by reason of
    on account of
    because of for this reason
    therefore
    on this account
    http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicon….ion=kjv

    Practically all Bible scholars will tell you that the Logos, the pre-human Jesus, in John 1:3 is the “channel”, the “agent” being used by the Father in creation. Thus Robertson writes regarding John 1:3:

    Quote

    By means of him as the intermediate agent in the work of creation. The Logos is John's explanation of the creation of the universe. The author of Hebrews (Hebrews 1:2) names God's Son as the one “through whom he made the ages.” Paul pointedly asserts that “the all things were created in him” (Christ) and “the all things stand created through him and unto him” (Colossians 1:16). Hence it is not a peculiar doctrine that John here enunciates. In 1 Corinthians 8:6, Paul distinguishes between the Father as the primary source (ex ou) of the all things and the Son as the intermediate agent as here (di ou).

    Robertson, A.T. “Commentary on John 1:3”. “Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament”. http://bible.crosswalk.com/Comment….se=003.
    Broadman Press 1932,33, Renewal 1960.

    Thus, neither John 1:3 nor any of the other scriptures that use the intrumental words in regards to Jesus can be used to prove that Jesus is “the Creator”. He is the “agent” used by the Father.

    John 1:3
    panta di autou egeneto kai chwris autou
    ALL (THINGS) THROUGH HIM CAME TO BE, AND APART FROM HIM
    3956 1223 0846_3 1096 2532 5565 0846_3
    egeneto oude hen
    CAME TO BE NOT BUT ONE (THING).
    1096 3761 1520
    ho gegonen
    WHICH HAS COME TO BE
    3739 1096

    The word “all” in English does not always mean absolutely everything in existence, and, as in Greek, the context or common knowledge has to be applied to the English word “all” in order to ascertain what is being spoken of, what is included, what is excluded, etc. (The word “things” usually does not appear in the Greek texts when forms of the word “pas” is used in the Greek, but is added by the translators.) I believe I covered this sufficiently in my earlier posts.

    Likewise, with the expression “not one”. In Romans 3:10, “not one” does not include the angels who are faithful, nor does it include Jesus as a man, for the man Jesus never once sinned. It is only by isolating the phrase “without him nothing was made that has been made” from the context and from the rest of the scriptures that one can conclude that this should be applied to everything in the universe. One could do the same thing in Hebrews 2:8.

    You have put all things in subjection under his [man's] feet.” For in that he subjected all things to him [man], he left nothing that is not subject to him.

    Taken out of context and isolating this verse from the rest of the Bible, one could conclude that there is nothing at all in the universe that was not subjected to man. However, taken in relation to what was being referred to we find that God left nothing on earth that is not subject to man. The same is true of John 1:3: there was nothing in the world of mankind that was made that was not made through Jesus.

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,06:25)

    I will use one of the most popular versions…

    NIV – Jhn 1:3 – Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
    New International Version © 1973, 1978, 1
    984 International Bible Society

    Let me repeat this part…

    without him nothing was made that has been made.

    Everything was made by and through him.

    Nothing came into existence without him.

    So how does this match up to your claim that Jesus is the agent that God used for just man or dirt?

    I have already answered this in my earlier posts, and have elaborated upon this in this post.

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,06:25)

    In the beginning God created the Heavens and the earth! Gen 1:1

    Not in the beginning God created the “Heavens and the dirt”!

    I have already shown what the scriptures say; the above simply ignores what I have presented.

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,06:25)

    Even so if you believe that God made man through Jesus then you are saying God needed a man to create the man through.

    Actually, Jesus was not “Jesus” until he became flesh. Before that he was mighty being that John refers to as the Logos, who was not at all a man, but was higher than a man.

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,06:25)

    How does this theory line up with these scriptures?…

    Gen 1:1
    In the beginning “God” created the heavens and the earth!

    I have already shown this. It lines up very well.

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,06:25)

    Isa 44:24
    Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; *that stretcheth forth the heavens alone*; that spreadeth abroad the earth *by myself*;

    I think I briefly discussed this verse in an earlier post. Yes, as I stated earlier, the planet earth and the physical heavens, the stars, the planets, etc., evidently were created “before” the Logos was brought forth into being. Therefore, the Logos was not in existence at that time of the creation of the physical universe, before the world of mankind with its “heavens” and “earth” was created upon and in relation to the planet earth.

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,06:25)

    Isa 45:18
    For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: *I am the LORD; and there is none else*.

    Again, this speaks of the planet earth, not the order of things upon the earth which was created as spoken of in Genesis 1 and 2.

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,06:25)

    God didnt create another agent to create all things through!

    Please explain how “None else” “By myself” and “Alone” includes another agent?

    I have never claimed that in the verses being spoken of that the Logos was used as agent in the creation of the physical universe itself. I tried to make that clear in my earlier posts.

    As I have shown “all' [panta] that is spoken of in John 1:3 relates only to the world of mankind, not the creating the starry heavens, nor the planet earth, nor the even the angels, although Paul later shows that Jesus was the agent in creating the ones dominating in heaven. Thus this harmonizes with the scriptures that speaks of Yahweh as creating the physical universe alone, for apparently, even the Logos was not there as an agent in the creation of the physical universe. It is only in relation to the living creation in the heavens and the world of mankind upon the earth that Jesus, in his prehuman existence, was the agent in creation.

    In service of Jesus and his God,
    Ronald

    #107253
     kenrch 
    Member
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    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,12:31)
    kenrch

    You say…

    Quote

    Then the Word became flesh. Does that mean that the Word God became flesh? When the Word God became flesh the Word gave up being Word God to become as we are flesh born under the law.

    So God ceased to be God? So the eternal Word changed? God changed?

    No God didnt change because Jesus is the Word/God, God tabernacled among us, Jn 1:14. Phil 2, He took on the likeness of sinfull flesh. God lived in a flesh tent that died and rose again.

    The Lord from heaven the second Adam returned to his previous Glory that he shared as God. He was and is the Word/God that was with God and is God.

    :)


    Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the word say that HE GAVE UP EVERYTHING and became as we are ~flesh~ and under the law?

    Now Jesus was flesh and the WORD God was IN HIM that is the son of man. As being in flesh the Word God became less than GOD!

    #107254
     t8 
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    Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 15 2008,13:18)

    Quote (t8 @ Jan. 15 2008,12:30)

    Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 15 2008,12:25)
    Now for the first time God had a Son…


    What about Adam?


    Adam was not born!


    Luke 3:38
    the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

    #107255
     kenrch 
    Member
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    Quote (t8 @ Jan. 15 2008,16:51)

    Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 15 2008,13:18)

    Quote (t8 @ Jan. 15 2008,12:30)

    Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 15 2008,12:25)
    Now for the first time God had a Son…


    What about Adam?


    Adam was not born!


    Luke 3:38
    the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.


    I believe that these men were call the sons of God because they sought God.

    Gen 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
    Gen 4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

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