Trinity (Part 1)

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  • #15801
     t8 
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    Quote (Is 1:18 @ Sep. 21 2004,14:17)
    I would say that arguing with you is like trying to empty a bathtub with a tea strainer.

    That is a light-hearted joke, by the way, but it does carry an element of truth. I mean, how can you reason effectively with someone who never concedes a point?


    I can concede on a point if that point is true. After all, I was once a christian who believed in the Trinity without question. So I must have conceded that the belief that I was taught and believed without question was wrong. It was only the conviction of the Spirit of God that lead me on a journey to discover the wonderful truth. But I haven't conceeded on your points as I believe that you are teaching falsely, so how can I in good conscience do that?

    And yes somethings you say I believe them to be true, but your reasoning that they show a the Trinity Doctrine is false because that doctrine is of man and demon.

    Early on in my life when I brought such things up with other christians, they warned me to not go there. But I am not one to give up because of the fear of man and even though I dropped this amazing journey for a period of nearly 10 years, I picked it up again due to the gentle nudging of God's Spirit leading me in that direction.

    In my life as a believer, God has shown me many wonderful things in my spirit and in vision. This has been the norm for me, but when God started to show me about the Trinity Doctrine I thought it was just too heavy a burden to carry seen as how most christians have based their faith on it. I also questioned this direction I was going in. I prayed and sought God about it, time after time. But each time he would show me what the scriptures were saying and I couldn't argue with scripture. I did feel as though it was going to be me against the majority and I couldn't understand how such a deception could take hold so strongly and why God would let it become the foundation that it represents.

    But God was persistant and never one to force me. He gently showed me through scripture and even vision. In the end I just had to conceed that God is true and every man a liar. I had to accept that truth is greater than all of us put together and that I was priviledged for God to show me what he thought about this doctrine.

    I did take some comfort in Pauls words too. He mentions great deception to come and many people drawing men away from Christ and his teachings and after themselves. Paul said that he warned them day and night with tears about the wolves that were going to come in and not spare the flock. So this situation is no strange thing once we read these words.

    I believe that we are living in those times and the evidence of mans works in Gods name are everywhere, especially Europe as Nick pointed out.

    But I also believe that we live in a time of restoration. A time where the 5 fold ministry is and will be restored and a time where traditions and the things of men will fall as God shakes everything in order to see what stands.

    We live in a time when the Apostle will once again govern the Church with Christ as the Chief Shepherd. This will result in the traditional way of men appointed men ruling through the denominational system to look pail in comparison. This will result in a re-astablishment of truth and doctrine and what it means to have true faith. Of course there will always be Sauls to contend with. But there will also be Pauls.

    Much of what is believed now will be known as false in the future. Just as there was a time when Martin Luther had to convince Christians that salvation is a gift of God, others will also establish the true doctrine among the sheep.

    Do you think that the Church before Martin Luthers time was perfect? Do you think the Church today is perfect? Is not Christ coming back for a bride without spot or blemish?

    The way we will come into perfection is through the 5 fold ministry. Not the denomination/world system.

    Is 1:18, I ask you for your own sake to not stand in the way of God. Do not be his enemy in the works that he has prepared in this time. Rather than kicking against what God is doing, be like Paul and be converted. But do not be like Paul in that God has to make you blind first in order that you may see.

    I ask you to take a long hard look at yourself and ask yourself what God has told you and what you believe in and God hasn't told you. I also ask you to pray to the Father earnestly about your opposition to him being the one true God.

    I think that your reaction to this determines your future. To be used of God you must completely surrender all your own ideas and surrender to God and his truth. If you do not you will be useless to God.

    But I remind you of this fact:
    When the enemy comes in like a flood God will pour out his Spirit. You can read this as the enemy coming in like a flood or that God's Spirit will pour out like a flood. Either way I ask you to be part of what God is doing rather than aposing him.

    #15802
     Is 1:18 
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    Hi t8,
    Thanks for taking the time to write this post. I can even sense a little friendliness in it. For a long time I thought I was communicating with a kray super computer or something – pretty erudite but clinical and aloof (no offense mate).

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 20 2004,22:01)
    I can concede on a point if that point is true. After all, I was once a christian who believed in the Trinity without question. So I must have conceded that the belief that I was taught and believed without question was wrong. It was only the conviction of the Spirit of God that lead me on a journey to discover the wonderful truth. But I haven't conceeded on your points as I believe that you are teaching falsely, so how can I in good conscience do that?

    Ok firstly, I have hardly been expounding all things trinity since i've been here. If you check im sure you'll discover that my subject of choice has been the nature and identity of Jesus Christ. Although, given all the evidence im hardly surprised that the early church resorted to devising some sort of system to account for the Jesus the Bible (to me) clearly presents. It's probably a crude attempt in God's eyes but I don't think He would blame the church for this. Maybe those who worship the trinity per se will come under judgement (I don't do this)- I don't know. Anyone who is in Christ Jesus will not be condemned though (Romans 8:1).

    As an aside, have you done a study of Rev 2 & 3. Most scholars agree (and I certainly do too) that these 7 letters to 7 churches have a multiple application, one of them being church history. Read the letter to Thyatira and see if it rings true of the papal church age. Ditto for Sardis and the reformation churches and Laodicea and the churches of this age. If that's the case then where is Jesus' railing admonishion of the development, and continued adherence to, the trinity? Here is the perfect forum for Him to do this.

    Quote
    And yes somethings you say I believe them to be true, but your reasoning that they show a the Trinity Doctrine is false because that doctrine is of man and demon.


    OK, same applies as above – I simply haven't even mentioned the 'T' word unless engaged on it specifically. The points in question are those you state in your articles. These are the one's I'd hoped you would concede and retract. Yes, that has implications for the validity of your theology, obviously, but I didn't expect you to concede that the trinity is true – because I haven't been arguing for that. If you want me to show you exactly which points i'm referring to, im happy to do this for you.

    Quote
    But God was persistant and never one to force me. He gently showed me through scripture and even vision. In the end I just had to conceed that God is true and every man a liar. I had to accept that truth is greater than all of us put together and that I was priviledged for God to show me what he thought about this doctrine.


    (1) Did God show you specifically that the trinity doctrine is wrong? and (2) how did He do this?

    Quote
    I did take some comfort in Pauls words too. He mentions great deception to come and many people drawing men away from Christ and his teachings and after themselves. Paul said that he warned them day and night with tears about the wolves that were going to come in and not spare the flock. So this situation is no strange thing once we read these words.


    I wish you had cited the particular scripture here bc if it's the one im thinking of then it has an end time context. If this is true, then how can the trinity apply? since it's has been a mainstay belief in the church for centuries. It could hardly be constrewed as a great cloud of deception that envelops the church in the end times, could it?

    Quote
    I believe that we are living in those times and the evidence of mans works in Gods name are everywhere, especially Europe as Nick pointed out.


    Me too, im with you there :;):

    Quote
    But I also believe that we live in a time of restoration. A time where the 5 fold ministry is and will be restored and a time where traditions and the things of men will fall as God shakes everything in order to see what stands.


    5 fold ministry? what that? I agree with the rest.

    Quote
    We live in a time when the Apostle will once again govern the Church with Christ as the Chief Shepherd. This will result in the traditional way of men appointed men ruling through the denominational system to look pail in comparison. This will result in a re-astablishment of truth and doctrine and what it means to have true faith. Of course there will always be Sauls to contend with. But there will also be Pauls.


    Ummm, sure I agree. I think a lot of denominational traditions and beliefs (unscriptural ones, that is) are empty. Just like you.

    Quote
    Do you think that the Church before Martin Luthers time was perfect?


    Nope. No church has been – they've all been filled with people that's why. You know what they say t8; if you find the perfect church – don't go there, because it won't be perfect if you do.

    Quote
    Do you think the Church today is perfect?


    as above

    Quote
    Is not Christ coming back for a bride without spot or blemish?


    Yes, but what makes us blemish free? Its not adherence to a self-percieved perfect doctrine, it's HIS BLOOD. We are made righteous not by any of our own merit, but what He did on the cross. Paul covered this in detail I believe.

    Quote
    The way we will come into perfection is through the 5 fold ministry. Not the denomination/world system.


    What is this mysterious 5 fold mi
    nistry?

    Quote
    s 1:18, I ask you for your own sake to not stand in the way of God. Do not be his enemy in the works that he has prepared in this time. Rather than kicking against what God is doing, be like Paul and be converted. But do not be like Paul in that God has to make you blind first in order that you may see.


    I haven't been educated under Gamaliel, nor have I persecuted christians lately  – but im flattered by the Paul comparison. I believe Paul thought that Jesus was God too – he said as much in Rom 9:6, 1 Tim 2:3-4, 1 Tim 3:16, Titus 1:3, Titus 2:10, Titus 2:13 and Hebrews 1:8, (it's my conjecture that he wrote this epistle too).

    Quote
    I ask you to take a long hard look at yourself and ask yourself what God has told you and what you believe in and God hasn't told you. I also ask you to pray to the Father earnestly about your opposition to him being the one true God.


    OK, I will. Actually I try to pray constantly that His truth penetrate me, shattering my false preconceptions. I encourage you to do this too (if you don't already)

    Quote
    I think that your reaction to this determines your future. To be used of God you must completely surrender all your own ideas and surrender to God and his truth. If you do not you will be useless to God.


    Really? were you useless to God when you believed Him to be triune – answer honestly. In previously posts you have said that He used you then – why would He do this if you were useless to Him.

    Quote
    But I remind you of this fact:
    When the enemy comes in like a flood God will pour out his Spirit. You can read this as the enemy coming in like a flood or that God's Spirit will pour out like a flood. Either way I ask you to be part of what God is doing rather than aposing him.


    I don't consciously oppose God – why would I do that?
    Look t8, basically every scripture you give me as proof of Jesus' non-deity gets filtered through the kenosis (Phil 2:7) and Gal 4:4. People all too frequently forget His humanity and the fact that He was subject to the law, in every way. I think these explain away a lot of the sciptures you believe refute His Godliness. If you want an example of the true impact of the 'emptying out' (the relinquishing of the independent usage of his Godly attributes) then look at His omniscience before and after His ascention:

    Before:
    “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. (Matt 24:36, emph mine)

    After
    “Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.”
    Jesus said, “Feed my sheep. (John 21:17, emph mine)

    “I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.” (Rev 2:23, emph mine)

    To me, this demonstrates the implications of the kenosis for Jesus, graphically.

    Hey, take care my friend – God Bless you.

    #15803
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Is,
    Regarding your question about the letters to the Churches of Revelation 2-3 not mentioning the trinity doctrine.

    In those letters are warnings about false apostles. Twice in those letters are there severe warnings about the false teaching of the Nicolaitans. The Nicolaitans compromised the gospel and accommodated it to pagan customs just as happened when the catholic church sold out to Emperor Constantine in 323. After that the trinity doctrine was inserted into catholicism I understand as it was a Babylonian deity.

    Also the mention of the toleration of Jezebel, a false prophet who encouraged rebellion and idolatry.

    We dare not be more tolerant of false doctrine than God, who hates it, so wisdom demands we only accept the simple teachings clearly revealed in the Word and be careful to lay only useful stones in our building of faith.

    I would be interested in other's views on these matters.

    #15804
     t8 
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    Quote (Is 1:18 @ Sep. 21 2004,14:17)
    I would say that arguing with you is like trying to empty a bathtub with a tea strainer.


    lol
    I'll take it as a compliment.

    I remember years ago I was staying in a hostel whilst travelling and some of the patrons wanted to have a debate about something, (they were bored). So I offered that we debate the existence of God. Most of the people decided to argue that God doesn't exist and I had 1 Catholic girl on my side. Needless to say we were seriously outnumbered.

    I remember the look on the faces of my apponents was that of someone looking at a person being fed to the lions. I am sure that they thought that I would lose the debate in less than 10 minutes.

    Anyway as the debate took place, I remember that I felt the Spirit of God telling me what to say and in the end 1 person from the apposing side decided he wanted to know more about God.

    The funny thing was that we took a coffee break as the hostel gave free coffee and cookies at a certain time. I decided not to go, but then thought I would grab a coffee, so I turned up where the coffee was a little later.

    When I got the the room where the coffee was, they guys from the debate didn't notice me and they were talking about me. One guy said “arguing with him was like shovelling #### up a hill backwards”.

    Your words reminded me of that time, but I remember thinking that it was easier to argue the truth, than trying to argue lies. To me it is like light shining through darkness. One person can speak the truth against a multitude who speak lies and win easily. But only those who are seeking the truth can receive it. This was the case with Christ.

    Mark 1:22
    The people were amazed at his teaching, because he taught them as one who had authority, not as the teachers of the law.

    #15805
     t8 
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    Good post Nick.

    I will reply to your questions soon Is 1:18.

    #15806
     Anonymous
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    hey is 1:18,

    the so-called “five-fold ministry” is a reference to eph 4 where paul says that apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers are given to equip the saints for the work of the ministry… as there are five “roles” or “gifts” mentioned, it is called “five-fold”, as they are given in the capacity of serving the body of christ, it is called “ministry” (ministry means to serve)… actually there's some debate as to whether pastors and teachers should be distinguished from each other, because each of the other roles have “some to be” before them, but the last says “some to be pastors and teachers”… highly debateable, but probably not important…

    i think what t8 was saying is that we are eqipped for the work of the ministry through the ministering of the above “five-fold” (or four-fold, just so as not to be dogmatic, hehehe)… this is something which i've been thinking on for some time now… it is interesting that bible “teachers” teach, but rarely impart the gift of teaching to their students so that they can teach, and that “pastors” shepherd, but rarely impart the gift of shepherding so that others can shepherd, and so on… i think that this is probably because they're afraid they might lose their “flock” or something (or perhaps they don't really have anything to impart)… not sure what it has to do with the trinity (lazily did not read that far), but it is very interesting…

    cheers,

    nate.

    #15807
     Is 1:18 
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    Hi NH,
    Nicolaitan is a compound of nikao (to conquer) and laos (people). This is a reference to a group that “conquered the people” in some sense, but I don't see a strong correlation with the trinity. There's no mention of them outside of Revelation at all. How do you know they compromised the gospel and accommodated it to pagan customs?

    #15808
     t8 
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    Quote (Is 1:18 @ Sep. 21 2004,22:41)
    Here is the perfect forum for Him to do this.


    Yes it is the perfect forum to denounce the Trinity, but the Trinity was devised (for Christian purposes that is) centuries after the church in those 7 cities was addressed. Furthermore you do not see specific references to Oneness doctrine either. This doctrine also developed later too. So it would stand to reason that God wouldn't tell them off for something they weren't doing. But they were chastised for idolatory as Nick pointed out.

    So the church in either of those cities could not be blamed for what future generations would do. But as it is written:

    Matthew 18:7
    “Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!

    However Origen noted in his time that both Oneness and the Trinity doctrines started to appear. Of course he didn't call it by those terms as the words to describe these doctrines came later.

    (Origen's Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

    “We next notice John's use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article [“the”], and in some he omits it. He adds the article [“the”] to logos, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article [“the”], when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the logos is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article [“the], and theos without it, prevail also between logos with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As God who is over all is theos with the article [“the”] not without it, so also “the” logos is the source of that logos (reason} which dwells in every reasonable creature; the logos which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence “the” logos.

    Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos (gods), and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked.

    Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny the divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other.

    To such persons we have to say that God on the one hand is autotheos (God of Himself); and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know You the only true God; “but that all beyond the autotheos (God) is made theos by participation in His divinity, and is not to be called simply “the” theos but rather theos.

    And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with God, and to attract to Himself divinity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos (gods) beside Him, of whom “the” theos is “the” theos, as it is written,

    “The God of gods, the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became (gods), for He drew from God in generous measure that they should be made theos gods, and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty.

    The true God, then, is ho theos (“the god”), and those who are formed after Him are (gods), images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the ho logos (“the word”) of ho theos (“the god”) , who was in the beginning, and who by being with “the” theos (“God”) is at all times theos (“god”), not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos, if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.

    #15809
     t8 
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    Quote (Is 1:18 @ Sep. 21 2004,22:41)
    I wish you had cited the particular scripture here bc if it's the one im thinking of then it has an end time context. If this is true, then how can the trinity apply? since it's has been a mainstay belief in the church for centuries. It could hardly be constrewed as a great cloud of deception that envelops the church in the end times, could it?


    A number of scriptures but the one I quote to you is talking about the time after Pauls death or departure.

    Acts 20:29-31
    29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.
    30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.
    31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.

    So as you can see the Trinity can apply. The distortion of truth in the first century or whenever Paul died.

    #15810
     Is 1:18 
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    Hi t8,
    You didn't read my post properly. I said that these letters very likely have a multiple application in that they address more than just the literal churches operating at the time. This makes sense to me bc why would Jesus select these seven churches anyway? He omitted the churches in Jerusalem, Rome, Corinth….

    I'm sure you know your church history t8, so read these letters in a church age context and see if they fit. If that is the case then I think Jesus would certainly have admonished the formation and perpetuation of the trinity concept, if He thought it erroneous and dangerous.

    The whole timeline of the book of Revelation is given in Rev 1:19. Jesus tell John to write down the things he has seen (present context for John, ch 1), the things that are (from the time the vision was given till the start of the tribulation – i.e the time we are still living in, chs 2-3), and the things that shall take place after these things (the tribulation and return of Jesus Christ to set up His kingdom, chs 4-21). Have a look at Ch 4:1, the voice says “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things” He then shows John the events preceding and proceding the tribulation. Thats conjectural, I know, but its not just mine alone and if it is true then it would be logical that Jesus would give His report card to the various denominations representing church ages from Johns time till the time well whenever the tribulation starts I guess (probably ours). Does this make sense – im struggling to write a cogent sentence at the moment (early start to the day and a full-on day at work).

    Re John 1:1, ive started really looking at this verse and all the various interpretations of it. Im not going to address it at the moment, not until I have it sussed. But the early indications are there appears to be highly valid interpretations that are juxtaposed to yours. Like I said, I still have more study to do on that one.
    take care

    #15811
     t8 
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    Quote (Is 1:18 @ Sep. 22 2004,21:40)
    Hi t8,
    You didn't read my post properly. I said that these letters very likely have a multiple application in that they address more than just the literal churches operating at the time. This makes sense to me bc why would Jesus select these seven churches anyway? He omitted the churches in Jerusalem, Rome, Corinth….


    I did read it correctly.

    I was saying that it would be unfair to write a letter to say the Church in Thyatira or whatever and then say that they were in idolatory if it was really for a future church generation. God himself through the messengers even said it was for those in the province of Asia. It doesn't say it is for the 5th century church or whatever. However all scripture is written for us, so all the messages to the church in those cities are also for us to read and learn from.

    I can accept that at certain times certain sins would not only be repeated but that different times may contend with different sins and these 7 churches did cover a wide range of things that would obviously be repeated by those who are blind. We can draw parallels with the church in each of those cities. But the future will obviously bring new stumbling blocks or variations from the ones that were laid in that time too.

    I said the Trinity nor Oneness are mentioned. So to argue that the Trinity would have been faulted if it were wrong is indeed a weak arguement to make. Oneness is not mentioned so can we assume that it is right?

    Also there are many obvious faults that christians have done over the centuries that are not mentioned.

    Where are the crusades or the death of so-called witches. What about the persecution of scientists who said the earth revolved around the sun. What about christians who think gay marriage is blessed by God.

    I think these cities are representative of the church in those cities at that time and can only be used as a metaphor for other times. Thats all.

    Anyway did you read Origens Commentary.
    What did you think of his words?

    #15812
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Is,
    The understanding of the Nicolaitans deception was in the footnotes of the NASB bible I use.

    #15813
     Anonymous
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    OK, I've read through the article on the Trinity posted on this website, (as well as a half a dozen others), and I have read through some of the posts in this thread.  (I realize that my comments will not fall directly in line with the current flow of thought.)  As a result, I have come to this conclusion: when you approach scripture with your doctrines already defined, you will always find ways to make what you uncover fit your preconceived notions.  With that in mind, I have a challenge for everyone, regardless of your particular beliefs.

    Anyone who has been a believer for any length of time can go to scripture and outline the plan of salvation, (or at least the plan of salvation as he understands it).  In fact, one can easily use scripture alone, without any commentary, to explain salvation to someone who is a seeker.  For example:

    “Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned.” Roms 5:12

    “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.” Roms 6:23

    “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.” John 3:16-17

    Notice that I did not interject any commentary inbetween verses.  I let them speak for themselves, and I think it is utterly clear what they are saying.  Now the challenge is: Can you do the same with the Trinity doctrine, or whatever doctrine you believe in?

    #15814
     Elisha 
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    To What is True –

    Excellent point, we should be able to let the scriptures speak, and the words should fit and not contradict. Here are what the scriptures say about God and His Son – in plain English.

    Would it not be wiser to cling to the plain texts instead of the few unclear verses?

    Deuteronomy 18: 15-19

    “The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him. For this is what you asked of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, “Let us not hear the voice of the LORD our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die. The LORD said to me: “What they say is good. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.”

    Matthew 16:13ff

    When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
    And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
    He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
    And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
    And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
    And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
    And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
    Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

    Mark 12: 28ff

    “One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
    “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'There is no commandment greater than these.”
    “Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”
    When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.”

    John 5 :44

    ”How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the one and only God ?”

    John 17:3

    ”Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.”

    John 20:30 -31

    Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

    Acts 10:38

    “How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.”

    1 Corinthians 8: 1-7

    ”Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. But the man who loves God is known by God. So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. But not everyone knows this.”

    Galatians 3: 19-20

    ”What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.”

    I Timothy 2: 3-7

    “This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men–the testimony given in its proper time. And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle–I am telling the truth, I am not lying–and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.”

    Revelation 3:11ff

    “I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”

    #15815
     NickHassan 
    Blocked
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    Hi Whatistrue and Elisha,
    Good posts.

    The phrase “whoever believes in Him shall not perish” can be a stumbling block to some. The depth of belief inferred is not intellectual assent but that of the early church. Belief proven by action in submitting to the circumcision of the NT, baptism, and being prepared to die for that faith.

    #15816
     Anonymous
    • Topics started 0
    • Total replies 0

    Nick – I concede your point. My example was quickly put together, and not meant to be a complete treatise on the topic of salvation. Ultimately, I was just trying to point toward the notion that whatever doctrines we claim as solidly biblical should be backed up solidly by the words of the bible alone. Otherwise, our theology is extra-biblical.

    I am genuinely interested in seeing someone from a Trinitarian perspective meet my challenge, as I am still trying to find a final resting place on this matter myself.

    #15817
     NickHassan 
    Blocked
    • Topics started 284
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    I totally agree. God's word is pure and dependable. He provides all we need to know in that Word and backs it up to show detail.It is written by the Spirit and if we have the Spirit to help us read it then it becomes clear.When we get off the path of simplicity and add in human doctrines then it will not stand up to scrutiny and we can bring our faith into disrepute.

    It is interesting that it says that in the last days people will not be interested in sound doctrine but will look for teachers who will tickle their ears. That scripture is applied to the Church as preachers talk to the unsaved but teachers are to develop the understanding of the members of the Church.

    #15818
     t8 
    Participant
    • Topics started 905
    • Total replies 19,005

    Quote (Guest @ Sep. 23 2004,04:47)
    OK, I've read through the article on the Trinity posted on this website, (as well as a half a dozen others), and I have read through some of the posts in this thread.  (I realize that my comments will not fall directly in line with the current flow of thought.)  As a result, I have come to this conclusion: when you approach scripture with your doctrines already defined, you will always find ways to make what you uncover fit your preconceived notions.  With that in mind, I have a challenge for everyone, regardless of your particular beliefs.

    Anyone who has been a believer for any length of time can go to scripture and outline the plan of salvation, (or at least the plan of salvation as he understands it).  In fact, one can easily use scripture alone, without any commentary, to explain salvation to someone who is a seeker.  For example:….


    Yes I agree. We should be able to let scripture speak for itself. But I am amazed that many cannot see the obvious truth this way and I am sure as you say that they have already made their mind up and nothing is going to change that. Because they are already full with their own understanding they leave no room for the truth. This is why we must crucify ourselves daily and empty ourselves of ourselves and let God's Spirit fill us and we should renew our minds.

    One word of caution would be that we can use scripture in a certain order to paint an incorrect picture if the scriptures are taken out of context.

    An example of this could be:

    There is no God.
    What point is there to anything, all is vanity.

    Cults however are more subtle than that and have convinced probably most christians to serve a doctrine that is not biblically based.

    I have always said that if we teach the truth then we can encompass all scripture and we are not afraid of any scripture as to leave it out of our teaching. The truth is in harmony with all scripture because scripture is inspired by God.

    That said I would like to let scripture speak for itself with the following scriptures: (but I firmly believe that I could do the same thing many times over with different sciptures and it would still paint the same picture).

    The theme is God and his son.

    1 Timothy 6:15-16 (English-NIV)
    15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
    16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

    John 1:18 (English-KJV)
    No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

    1 Corinthians 8:5-6 (English-NIV)
    5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
    6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

    Ephesians 4:4-6 (English-NIV)
    4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called  
    5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
    6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

    John 17:3 (English-NIV)
    Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
    Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

    Revelation 1:1 (English-NIV)
    The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.
    He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

    Revelation 3:12 (English-NIV)
    Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God.
    Never again will he leave it.
    I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.

    1 Corinthians 15:24-28 (English-NIV)
    24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
    25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
    26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
    27 For he has put everything under his feet. Now when it says that everything has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
    28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
     

    It amazes me that this is not good enough for many. But as I said, I could bring out the same truth using a complete set of different scriptures. In fact I am confident that I could do it many times. Each time the meaning would be the same.

    #15819
     t8 
    Participant
    • Topics started 905
    • Total replies 19,005

    I will also let scripture speak on the subject of the true foundation of faith and the church. Again I could do this exercise many times with a different set of scriptures and the meaning would still be the same.

    Acts 8:36-37
    36 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?”
    37 Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” The eunuch answered, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”

    John 20:31
    But these are written that you may[ 20:31 Some manuscripts may continue to] believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

    1 John 3:23
    And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

    1 John 5:1
    Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.

    John 17:3 (English-NIV)
    Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    In Matthew 16:13-17 it says
    13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples,
    “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
    14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
    15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
    16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
    17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
    18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

    So why o why do many have the Trinity doctrine as their foundation?

    #15820
     t8 
    Participant
    • Topics started 905
    • Total replies 19,005

    Who in this forum would trust a man who was actually a ruthless opportunist and called himself a christian. What if this man presided at all pagan festivities in his area and was also responsible for murdering members of his own family. In addition to that he hasn't been baptized, but is waiting near his death to receive baptism since he believes he can't avoid committing “mortal” sin and considers such sin after baptism to be unforgivable.

    Is 1:18 would you trust this man?

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