Trinity (Part 1)

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  • #15781
     Is 1:18 
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    I was saying sorry to T8 actually (for being out of line in his forum). Ummm…..look MOS, are you totally incapable of being nice?, Im beginning to wonder. At first I found your tone really insulting – then annoying – now I find it funny. I mean, who is like this??
    Im not going to answer your posts, take a hint, please. Its not because you challenge me any more than the rest but simply because, if im to be honest, I don't want to – id rather communicate with someone who can reason with me and still be respectfull. Understand?
    God Bless

    #15782
     messageofsalvation 
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    Quote (Is 1:18 @ Sep. 17 2004,00:33)
    I was saying sorry to T8 actually. Ummm…..look MOS, are you totally incapable of being nice?, Im beginning to wonder. At first I found your tone really insulting – then annoying – now I find it funny. I mean, who is like this??

    Im not going to answer your posts, take a hint, please. Its not because you challenge me any more than the rest but simply because, if im to be honest, I don't want to – id rather communicate with someone who can reason with me and still be respectfull. Understand?
    God Bless

    Is 1:18, That's your choice. No offence taken.   I know you only apologized to T8 that is why I questioned your sincerity.  You see T8 questioned you accusing me of hatred. You apologized to him regarding this but you say the apology is to T8. It was clear to me that you did not have the humility to direct any apology to me. If you feel that I am excluded from your apology and future postings then you are not truly repentant and your guilt remains. T8 questioned your accusing me of hatred.  Go back and look at your response dated Sep. 15 2004,20:14

    Is 1:18,
    I think you need to take a look at yourself first.Love does not take offence like the way you did. Yet you accused me of hatred.  You are deceived.

    I take no personal offence it is your salvation that is in danger. After all, I don't depend on your responses.
    You obviously have issues concerning my questions, and were offended that I have highlighted your errors and continue to do so. Thus far you have refused to reason through the issue I raised concerning your use of the 'separation' heresy.

    I will continue to highlight any errors that you post for the sake of others.
    :)

    #15783
     Is 1:18 
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    MOS, I think we have gotten off on the wrong foot. It would be hard to reach another conclusion.  :) If you have felt wronged by any of my comments then I wholeheartedly apologise. Sincerely, Im sorry. If Elisha is right and you have had a bad experience with unloving trinitarians in the past then im sorry to hear that – but thats not what im about. I freely concede that you could probably demolish me in a scriptural argument, Ive only been studying the Word of God for 2 or 3 years and have 2 young children that demand my time (which if love to give them of course).

    I haven't reached my conclusion on Jesus' identity because the church has re-inforced that by their ideology. The Holy Spirit has led me there.

    If you want to post antagonisingly every time I try to communicate with others then thats your call but I will simply leave and take with me a very sobered view of your theology and its proponents (with a few exceptions).

    God Bless mate.

    #15784
     messageofsalvation 
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    Quote (Is 1:18 @ Sep. 17 2004,03:31)
    MOS, I think we have gotten off on the wrong foot. It would be hard to reach another conclusion.  :) If you have felt wronged by any of my comments then I wholeheartedly apologise. Sincerely, Im sorry. If Elisha is right and you have had a bad experience with nasty trinitarians in the past then im sorry to hear that – but thats not what im about. I freely concede that you could probably demolish me in an scriptural argument, Ive only been studying the word for 2 or 3 years and have 2 young children that demand my time (which if love to give them of course). I haven't reached my conclusion on Jesus' identity because the church has re-inforced that by their ideology. The Holy Spirit has led me there.

    If you want to post antagonisingly every time I try to communicate with others then thats your call but I will simply leave and take with me a very sobering view of your theology and its proponents (with a few exceptions).

    God Bless mate.

    I thank God that you have responded with this post. There is hope for anyone who is truly seeking God. Yes, I have been persecuted by Trinitarians. Some have done so not realising that I have quoted Christ's own words, and that was sad.

    I hope you have a good day!

    #15785
     Is 1:18 
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    cheers, you too.

    #15786
     t8 
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    Quote (Is 1:18 @ Sep. 16 2004,22:26)
    Why is it to Satans' advantage that people believe Jesus is God?


    First of all the foundation of true faith sits on the precept that is that there is one God. Next that one God has a son whom he appointed heir of all things, including salvation.

    These 2 precepts are very important, but the Trinity Doctrine stamps all over it and says that both are God and they are equal and we worship them both as the same God.

    It brings in confusion and God is not the God of confusion.

    1 Timothy 2:5
    For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

    So the Devil has subtly got many Christians to break the great commandment that we worship God as God only. Jesus was meant to be honoured as the son and the Lamb of God.

    We should never underestimate our enemy. I think that Satan was losing the battle in many lives by using his agents to accuse Jesus as a drunkard or the prince of the demons. Jesus just had too much of a following and his miracles and words convinced many that he was of God.

    So what is an adverse creature to do. Why not swing the pendulum the other way. If they love Jesus as the Son, then why not go with the flow rather than against it and take it too far and over the edge. After all it is easier to push with the flow than against it.

    You see whether Jesus is a drunkard or the Most High God, they are still lies. Yes one lie is more flattering than the other, but a lie is a lie and no good can come from it. All lies come from the Father of Lies. Lies is his native language. They are his words. But it is the words of God that will set us free, not the lies or flatterings of the enemy. Works that are built on the foundation of lies, (no matter how flattering), will not stand.

    Jesus said “upon this rock I will build my Church.” What rock? Jesus built his Church on the truth that Peter spoke. “You are the Christ, the son of the Living God”.

    It is only this foundation where true faith lies. All other foundations will wash away in time. So what better way to try and decieve Christs followers by not saying that he is a devil, but that he is God himself. Of course don't do it immediately, but over time, he can change the truth of God into a lie. This way he tricks those who have respect for the son of God, but do not love the truth to seek it out each day, or those who are not willing to die for the truth.

    Remember that the Devil is the one who deceives the whole world. He is not so stupid to just say to everyone that Jesus doesn't exist or that he is evil. No his most cunning disguise is as an angel of light.

    So is there a verse where Jesus denied being God. Well first of all, the reason we do not see this outright is that this wasn't an issue. Apart from a couple of ocassions where certain Jews misunderstood Jesus words and him giving a defence against such a notion by saying that he was the Son of God and that men were also sons and gods.

    No, it would be a couple of centuries and a lot of Greek and Egyptian influence that would make it an issue. Back then, the issue was more to do with Jesus being the Messiah, the son of God or a deceiver.

    You will notice that Jesus also didn't say that he wasn't the Father or that he wasn't Michael the Archangel because such things were not an issue.

    Peter declared that Jesus was the Son and the Messiah and Jesus commended him and built his Church on that truth. Now if Jesus being God was an issue in those days, then this would have been the time to clear it all up. Peter could have just said You are the Most High God, you are Yahweh. But Peter didn't say that. He said you are the son of God and the Messiah. So I believe Jesus and Peter over Athanasius any day.

    Infact even Peter gives the truth that Jesus wasn't thought of as God by anyone in his following words:

    Matthew 16
    13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
    14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
    15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
    16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ,[1] the Son of the living God.”

    Did anyone say that they thought Jesus was God, or did Peter declare that?

    NO.

    Don't pass over this quickly. The true foundation is Peters declaration. Any other foundation, even one that exalts Jesus to be equal to the Father is still another foundation. Most of the denominations are built on this foundation. It's as if Peter said to Jesus you are the Amighty God and then all these churches started up that were built on that. But we both know that is not what happened with regards to what Peter said.

    You see, even the one that says that Jesus is the Father is a false foundation. This is known as Oneness today and is just as wrong as the Trinity Doctrine. So what is wrong with Oneness Is1:18? Does it not also exalt Jesus? What could be wrong with that? Would an enemy really do that? Could Satan tell such a lie to make the son greater than he really is?

    Of course he does. If he can get you to believe in a lie, then he has that power over you. Sure he would rather you believe that Jesus is evil and then perhaps that Jesus doesn't exist. Perhaps the lie that says that Jesus is the Almighty is the last lie that he would like you to believe. But it is a darn sight better than you believing in the truth. Because it is only in the truth that God can work and if the truth be in you, then God can work in you and through you and that is the last thing that God's adversity wants.

    What is really going on?

    Christian City and all her denominations were built by man. But true disciples seek the city made by God. We are aliens in this world. We don't belong here. Our hearts are not in this world. It is the Kingdom of God that we love.

    As it is written. “Come out of her my people”. Do not partake in her sins, lest you be judged with her. Babylon is the Mother of all false religion and a number of other things. Call it a coincidence, but Babylonians even worshipped a trinity and also worshipped the Queen of Heaven. Is it starting to sound familiar? Babel even built a tower up to Heaven in their own name. Is it also a coincedence that certain men who have drawn men to themselves also built cathedrals up to heaven and in their own name. Check it out; most demominations started from a charasmatic person and created a church OF THEIR/HIS OWN. Christian history is nothing but that if you ask me.

    I am not into christianity, I am into the Kingdom of God. I do not seek the created things of men, but the creator and the things of him. I seek Heaven and the city of Jesus's God and our God.

    Revelation 3:12
    Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.

    #15787
     t8 
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    1 Corinthians 15:24-28 (English-NIV)
    24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
    25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
    26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
    27 For he has put everything under his feet. Now when it says that everything has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
    28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

    #15788
     t8 
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    One more thing Is 1:18,

    You mentioned once that the Father is LORD, but that doesn't disqualify Jesus from being LORD.

    But if this true, then we would have 2 LORDS.

    I remind you of the great commandment.

    Mark 12:29
    “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.

    #15789
     Is 1:18 
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    Hi T8,

    Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, The LORD is one! (Deut 6:4)

    The word 'one' here is 'echad' and it can be used to denote compound unity.

    It is used this way in Gen 2:24:
    “…they shall become one (echad) flesh”

    One flesh, yet two persons.

    If God wanted to infer absolute singularity and therefore dispel any notion of plurality, then why wasn't the word 'yachid' used?

    cheers

    #15790
     Is 1:18 
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    Quote (messageofsalvation @ Sep. 16 2004,23:10)

    Is wrote:

    Heb 1:18 has an alternative reading that can be found by refering to earlier manuscripts:

    'God is your throne forever: the righteous sceptre is one that rules true; virtue you love as much as you have wickedness. Rightly has God, your God, chosen to anoint you with the oil of gladness, setting you above all your companions'

    Firstly, Heb 1:18 comes from the Psalms and is also applied to David. David is not God but occupied the seat of God i.e. he occuppied the seat of authority. Even if we took the Trinitarians preferred reading one would have to understand it in a similar manner, just like the judges who were referred to as gods, but not God Almighty.

    Hi MOS,
    Lets try to keep the powder keg dry, huh?

    The Greek construction of the verse allows it to be translated two ways:

    1. “God is your throne forever and ever….”,  and
    2. “Thy Throne O god, is forever and ever…”

    Most Bibles do not translate it the way #1 does, for two main reasons.

    First, it requires understanding of the Hebrew noun for “throne” in construct state. This would be very unusual when a noun has a pronomial suffix, as this one does. The KJV, NIV and NASB all use the verse in its plain, straight forward sense.

    Also to say ” God is your throne” makes no sense what-so-ever, especially in the context of the first 7 verses of Hebrews 1.

    Yes, Psalm 45 is dealing with a king but it is a relatively common practice for NT writers to take a verse from the OT that seems to deal with one subject and then apply it to another. I think Paul, or whoever did write Hebrews, had some inside knowledge of the OT we don't have – so I trust him on this one.

    Take care

    #15791
     t8 
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    Quote (Is 1:18 @ Sep. 19 2004,15:56)
    Hi T8,

    Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, The LORD is one! (Deut 6:4)

    The word 'one' here is 'echad' and it can be used to denote compound unity.

    It is used this way in Gen 2:24:
    “…they shall become one (echad) flesh”

    One flesh, yet two persons.

    If God wanted to infer absolute singularity and therefore dispel any notion of plurality, then why wasn't the word 'yachid' used?

    cheers


    So is it true to say “Here O Israel, the Lord thy God is 3 persons”?

    #15792
     Is 1:18 
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    I'm saying you can't really use it to support your premise. And I think my last point was a legitimate one.

    #15793
     t8 
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    I think that most clear thinking persons would think 2 persons who are called LORD, would be 2 LORDS.

    That is what most would think, if they were not subjected first to the Trinity Doctrine.

    Ask any child for example. 1 LORD + 1 LORD = ?
    Yes 1 Man + 1 Woman = 1 Flesh. But that is different because scripture doesn't teach that 1 Man + 1 Man =1 Man, or 1 Man + 1 Woman = 1 Man.

    You say that the Father is LORD and the Son is LORD. Yet 1 LORD. It is weird.

    1 Father + 1 Son = 1 LORD is better, even though I know scripture doesn't support that.

    But 1 LORD + 1 LORD = 1 LORD. Come on.

    #15794
     Is 1:18 
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    T8,
    Im realistic about my own limited understanding of God and I hope I would never try to systematically explain the trinity to anyone. I just don't think you can put God in a box like that and say to someone “look, i've got God pegged – let me show you”. God is knowable, but I suspect that some things of God, T8, are obviously far beyond our feeble comprehension. I can only try and interpret what I read, using the Holy Spirit's guidance, of course. The trinity isn't overt, there are hints of it – but the hints are ubiquitous.

    Quote (Is 1:18 @ Sep. 18 2004,20:56)
    If God wanted to infer absolute singularity and therefore dispel any notion of plurality, then why wasn't the word 'yachid' used?


    You haven't answered this question.

    #15795
     Is 1:18 
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    Nick Hassan!
    Welcome back! we're one big happy family here, as you can see. How was your trip?

    #15796
     NickHassan 
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    Thank you Is. Yes 5 weeks in Europe and Ireland certainly opened my eyes to the amazing dominating influence of catholicism in those regions. The thousands of churches, statues, shrines and crucifixes scattered over the landscape and towering over towns and cities must also command a lot of political influence.

    I know how Paul felt when he went to Athens.

    Sorry but happy families here too are not born of the diversity of doctrine I see, but the unity in the simplicity and power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    People claiming allegiance to denominations rather than Jesus, presumptuous theology rather than love of truth and claims by some that all are being saved all catch in my craw.

    Nobody seems to fear God…and that is the beginning of wisdom. God help us.

    #15797
     t8 
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    Welcome back Nick, (back to the forum that is).
    Yes Europe holds much evidence of history and I actually lived in Dublin Ireland for 1 year when I was 13 years old.

    I remember my first day at school. The kids asked me if I was a Catholic or Protestant. In those days I didn't believe in God at all, but I said I was a Catholic lest I became persecuted.

    It was compulsory to go to Religious Instructions (rediculous interuptions as I knew it) and I remember one time the teacher saying that the Catholic religion had to be the right one because the protestant one started up because Henry the 8th wanted to marry more than once or one wife or something. When I look back now I think it is not only shameful, but it is also funny how the world, religions and denominations are just obviously rediculous and contradictory of each other.  If we have a faith in God at all, it should be a living faith, not a label and a set of creeds or instructions.

    I remember the hate between Catholic and Protestant only too well. In fact I was beaten on a few ocassions because I didn't have an Irish accent. I had a New Zealand accent and they mistook me for british and we all know how much they are hated in Ireland. It was a pretty tough year of my life and I hated it there. I couldn't wait to get back to NZ, it seemed like paradise in comparision.

    I also travelled around Europe when I was  21 years. I was facinated by Rome and how great an empire it must have been. But I was reminded that those days will return to the earth in the end times and this was the work of the god of this age.

    #15798
     t8 
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    Quote (Is 1:18 @ Sep. 19 2004,22:19)
    T8,
    Im realistic about my own limited understanding of God and I hope I would never try to systematically explain the trinity to anyone. I just don't think you can put God in a box like that and say to someone “look, i've got God pegged – let me show you”. God is knowable, but I suspect that some things of God, T8, are obviously far beyond our feeble comprehension. I can only try and interpret what I read, using the Holy Spirit's guidance, of course. The trinity isn't overt, there are hints of it – but the hints are ubiquitous.

    Quote (Is 1:18 @ Sep. 18 2004,20:56)
    If God wanted to infer absolute singularity and therefore dispel any notion of plurality, then why wasn't the word 'yachid' used?


    You haven't answered this question.


    Yes one flesh 2 persons, but isn't LORD a name?
    Saying that Jesus is Yahweh is like saying Eve was Adam if you ask me. Yes Eve is of Adam, but she wasn't Adam in identity.

    Jesus is of God, but he is not God in identity. We as true believers are required to believe that Jesus is of God, not God.

    1 Corinthians 11:3  
    Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

    Also the word in the NT for one in Mark 12:29 is 'heis'.
    “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one (heis).

    According to the Strongs concordance it means:
    numeral, prim

    It is also used in the following verse:

    Ephesians 4:4-6  
    4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called  
    5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
    6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

    So there is no mistaking it. One God the Father and one Lord Jesus (not LORD).

    Your notion of plurality is dispelled here. I believe that the Trinity doctrine has bewitched you into not believing that there is one God the Father. That is the greatest commandment. I think that you should take this seriously. It is not about pride or winning an argument, it is about how we can align ourselves with God and his truth.

    As far as 'yachid' goes, it doesn't dispell the notion of single/one either, but Mark 12:29 uses the Greek word for one/numeral and so do the other verses that use it. So it is reasonable to assume that Mark 12:29 shows us that Jesus said that God is one/numeral and because he quoted Deut 6:4, it is safe to assume that he took that verse to mean that God is one/numeral. The irony here is that these words come from the lips of the one you say is also God therefore calling him a liar (perhaps in ignorance?).

    Being a follower of Jesus is about believing his own words. If you do not believe Jesus words, then how can you even follow him? A true disciple hears what he says and doesn't listen to the voice of others.

    Again the trinity doctrine confuses nature with identity.
    Jesus has divine nature and so can we. Eve had human nature and so did Adam. But Adam is not Eve in identity, just as Yahshua is not Yahweh in identity.

    YHWH is the only true God. This is the greatest commandment. The one true God has a son. He is the only way that we can get to God. He died for our sins and rose from the dead victorious. He is now seated at the right hand of his God and our God and interceeds for his followers.

    #15799
     Is 1:18 
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    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 20 2004,03:26)
    I think that you should take this seriously. It is not about pride or winning an argument, it is about how we can align ourselves with God and his truth.


    I would say that arguing with you is like trying to empty a bathtub with a tea strainer.

    That is a light-hearted joke, by the way, but it does carry an element of truth. I mean, how can you reason effectively with someone who never concedes a point?

    #15800
     NickHassan 
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    What use is the trinity concept?

    Do you pray to the trinity?
    Did Jesus tell you to?
    “This is how you are to pray 'Our FATHER in Heaven…'”Mt 6. 9

    Do you worship the trinity ?
    Did Jesus tell you to?
    “Indeed it is just such worshippers the FATHER seeks. God is Spirit and those who worship HIM must worship in Spirit and truth..” Jn 4.23-4

    If you are not obeying Jesus then who is your Master?

    If it is just an intellectual exercise to try to prove such a useless concept is it not then just a distraction or worse -a false doctrine designed to confuse us and anger God??

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