Trinity (Part 1)

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  • #15383
     t8 
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    The Word was God:

    John 1:1  
    a) In the beginning was the Word, (En arche en ho logos)

    b) and the Word was with God, (kai ho logos en pros ton theon)

    C) and the Word was God. (kai theos en ho logos).

    The Greek word translated "God" is "theos." The Greek does not have a different word to show possession. Therefore, theos can be translated "God" or "God’s." The possessive form makes this verse so clear and in harmony with the phrase "the word was with God."

    A second possible translation would be, "and the word was mighty." Theos is equivalent to the Hebrew word elohim. Elohim has the meaning of great or mighty in such verses as

    Gen.30:8, "And Rachel said, With great [elohim] wrestlings have I wrestled with my sister, and I have prevailed: and she called his name Naphtali" and

    1 Sam 14:15, "And there was trembling in the host, in the field, and among all the people: the garrison, and the spoilers, they also trembled, and the earth quaked: so it was a very great [elohim] trembling."

    Since the word theos in the phrase "the Word was God [theos]" is not preceded by the article "ho" or "ton" (the God), as are the other two uses of theos & logos (Word) in verses 1 & 2, it can be understood as an adjective rather than a noun.

    This is difficult to see in English, because here we do not translate the Greek article with the English article ("the" ). That is, we do not say "the Word was with the God." For example, Greek often uses the article with proper names, where we would not in English (we do not say "the Jesus," but simply "Jesus" ). Nevertheless, the word "God" in clause b above, is definite and refers to a particular God, namely God the Father and in clause c it is simply God which can mean god-like.

    An example would be when you call someone an angel. "You are an angel". This means that we are saying you are like an angel. But if we say you are the Angel, then we are saying that you are an actual angel which is a different meaning.
    ====================================================
    Some references above are taken from other websites:
    I will leave this one here for now, because I think that this verse needs alot more discussion. I will endeavour to answer the other questions and challenge the other statements you have made. After this I would like to return to John 1 for a more indepth discussion and then ask you for an explanation on how to fit the trinity doctrine into other certain selected verses.

    #15236
     Ambassador of Christ 
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    t8 do you have an Instant messenger name?

    #15252
     Ramblinrose 
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    to Ambassador for Christ,

    Yes, I understand what the trinity is.  You quoted the following:

    ***”In reading your responses, I feel you might have a misunderstanding of what the Trinity really is.  You make an excellent point that the Father and Son are two different persons.  I completely agree with you.  The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Spirit, and the Spirit is not the Father.  They are three seperate and distinct persons.  They all share the same BEING, that is God.  YAHWEH is ONE God made up of three seperate, coequal persons.  I dont not beleive in three Gods.  Let me try to give a good working deff. of the Trinity, and hopefully clear up any confusion you might have as to what I feel the scripture teaches.   The ONE being of God is shared by three  co-equal and co-eternal persons,    The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  Please note the difference in the words “BEING” and “PERSON”  They are seperate persons, but they share the same being that is God.  I hope this helps you to understand what the Trinity really is.”***  

    But again you have not read the scripture word for word.  I also believe that the Father and Jesus are two separate persons.  But the Father IS GOD whilst Jesus is the SON OF GOD.

    I quoted this scripture before but I will once again:

    Acts 7:55,56
    55  But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
    56  And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

    Please notice that Jesus is standing at the right hand of GOD, not of the Father.  You have told me that Jesus is God, so how can he be standing beside himself.  That makes no sense at all.  For Jesus to be standing beside God, he cannot be God.  Please explain this to me, obviously I must be missing something here.

    John 20:17  Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

    Here he is ascending to the Father.  Good, that suits us both but then he says he is ascending ‘to my God, and your God’.  Once again, how can he be ascending to God if he is God.  For me this scripture makes perfect sense.  He is ascending to his Father, who is also our father, and to his God, who is also our God.  When I say God, or when I say Father, I am speaking of the same person.  When I say Jesus, I am speaking about the Son of God.

    I don’t see how either of the above passages can be read any other way.  They say what they say.

    1 Corinthians 15:27
    For he “has put everything under his feet.”
    Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.  

    Above I have used t8’s selection.  Jesus must be a separate person for God to be able to put something under him, otherwise he would have been putting it under himself anyway.

    Above you stated ‘three beings equalling one God’.  The above passages do not match that belief.  You also state that the three beings are coequal.  Equal means that they are all the same but without quoting the scripture we know that Jesus has said that the Father is greater than him and that he did and said what he was told by the Father.  So, where’s the equal bit in that.

    Next you say the following:

    ***“Just one quick note before I finish this post.  You posted many verses that describe the Holy Spirit as the “Spirit of God” but you left out the verses that describe the Holy Spirit as “The Spirit of Christ.”  You might want to go back and look those up.”***

    Yes, I have looked them up for you and there are only two, I have listed one below:

    Romans 8:
    8  So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
    9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
    10  And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
    11  But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies

    First, I don’t believe the Spirit of Christ to be the same as the Spirit of God.  I believe Jesus to be a separate person and that he would have his own spirit.  When we accept Jesus we accept his spirit and we try to live more like him.  When you have the Spirit of Christ, you act Christ-like, you act Christ-like because you believe in the Son and wish to follow the ways of God and to do this is to follow the ways of the son.  He came to show us how to live our lives.  Notice the next verse says ‘and if Christ be in you’, this follows what I have just said, to be Christ-like.  You will notice in the next verse that it says ‘But if the Spirit that raised up Jesus from the dead…’.  Can you see that he is now talking about a different spirit, this shows the Spirit of God to be a different Spirit to that of Christ.

    ,
    You quoted the following:
    ***“However, I will point out in scripture why a misunderstanding of God can result in a false Jesus.  A false Jesus cannot save.  To answer your question, scripture does make it very clear that we cannot attain salvation unless we believe in who God is as the bible reveals.  

    We cannot know the Father unless we know the Son:
    John 14: 6-7  Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.”

    We must know the true Jesus Christ as he is revealed in scripture to have eternal life:
    John 8:23-24  And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”***

    Let us look more deeply at John 14: 6-7.  Please note that this scripture does not say that Jesus is God, if I we were to interpret this scripture word for word like you have done then Jesus has just said that he is the FATHER – not God.  This then does not support your belief of the Trinity.  You have told me that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are SEPARATE persons but of the same being, God.  The above verse says that Jesus is the Father, which goes against everything that is the Trinity.  Obviously this verse is not to be interpreted in a literal sense.  Please remember that Jesus has been given the Holy Spirit (which is God’s spirit – not a separate person) without limit.  He has come to bring the word of God from God for God.  

    John 5:19  Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
    John 5:30  I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
    John 8:28  Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

    My  understanding of this verse would be (brackets mine): – “If you had known Me (the Son of God), you would have known My Father (God) also, from now on you know Him, and have seen Him (this doesn’t mean they had physically seen the Father (God), it means that they have come to know him by what Jesus has told them about him and have seen him by the miracles that Jesus has performed with the power of the Holy Spirit (which is God)).

                      * * * * *
    t 8 has already referred to the I AM section but I will add another writing.  Please note it is not my own and I have quoted th
    e writing in full thus  keeping with the request of the author.

    Is ‘I AM’ God’s Name
    There is a scene in the movie “Popeye” where the lead character makes this profound statement about himself: “I am what I am.” In spite of this, there was no outcry from the Christian community, no condemnation of the movie or the character, no charges of blasphemy, no picketing of movie theatres, no boycotts. In fact, no one seemed to notice the remark, least of all the Christian community.
    We do not condemn Popeye as claiming to be God for saying, “I am what I am.” Yet we charge Jesus Christ with claiming to be God for saying even less: “I am.”
    John 8:24. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.
    John 8:58. Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
    John 18:5-8. 5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am [he]. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. 6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am [he], they went backward, and fell to the ground. 7 Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth. 8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am [he]: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:
    If, as we in the Christian community have claimed for so long, all it takes to make the claim, “I am God,” is the utterance of those two words, “I am,” should not the use of those words by mere mortals have been banned centuries ago? Yet, to my knowledge, no move has been made in that direction at any time, anywhere. It's almost as if those words have no significance whatsoever except when uttered by Jesus Christ.
    That might be fine if he had been speaking to Christians who believed in his deity. But he was not. He was in the midst of a heated exchange with Jews who did not even accept his claim to be the Messiah. We argue to this day that these Jews, who had been trained by the Law of Moses to recognize only the Father in heaven as the one true God, and who had no idea that any Jew would dare to claim to be God, recognized those two words, “I am,” as a claim to Godhood when they were spoken by Jesus Christ, when we ourselves hear these words every day without so much as thinking of God.
    Go to an office or a job site. Ask, “Who's in charge here?” Invariably, someone will step forward and utter those blasphemous words, “I am.” Yet no one is shocked. No one is offended. We recognize without thinking about it that this is not their intent. One has to go out of his way, saying something like, “I am the great I Am,” before anyone sees anything amiss.
    Was Jesus claiming to be God when he said, “I am?” People who claim that this was the case argue that this was an obvious reference to Exodus 3:14, where God calls Himself “I Am.”
    Exodus 3:13-14. 13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, [when] I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What [is] his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
    There are several problems with this argument. First, the words, “I AM THAT I AM,” are not an accurate translation of the Hebrew words used. There is no Hebrew word for “I am.” There is, however, a word for “become,” and it is this word that is used here. The New International Version preserves the popular rendering, “I am who I am,” but in a note gives a more accurate translation: “I will be what I will be.”
    Second, the alleged reference is far from obvious, even to a Trinitarian. The very same phrase is translated, “I am [he]” in John 8:24, 8:28, and 9:9.
    John 8:24. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.
    John 8:28. Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
    John 9:9. Some said, This is he: others [said], He is like him: [but] he said, I am [he].
    It is currently popular to use John 8:24 and 8:28 as examples of Jesus calling himself God. If they are, they were not obvious as such to the translaters of the King James Version of the Bible, for they added the word “he” to complete the sense. Why did they not translate John 8:58 the same way they translated these other three passages?
    John 9:9 is particularly interesting, because here the man born blind who was healed by Jesus used those words, “I am.” Was he claiming to be God? Clearly the people he was talking to did not think so. No one accused him of blasphemy; they continued the conversation as if nothing had happened.
    In Jesus' case, they took up stones to throw at him. Yet no one on the scene, including those who hated him, accused him of claiming to be God.
    But there is an even more serious problem with this argument, and to see this one we must go back to Exodus 3.
    Exodus 3:13-15. 13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, [when] I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What [is] his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this [is] my name for ever, and this [is] my memorial unto all generations.
    Usually we stop reading at verse 14, and assume that “I AM THAT I AM,” or “I AM” is the name that God is revealing to Moses. But God's name is not revealed until verse 15.
    Where is it? The translation in the King James Version obscures it. The word “LORD” which appears in all capital letters is one of the instances where the text was deliberately changed in the Hebrew from YHWH, transliterated “Jehovah” in English, to “Adonai,” meaning “Lord.” The change was marked by those who did it, and was done out of reverence for the name of God, not out of a desire to deceive. Nevertheless, it does obscure the meaning of the verse.
    Once this word is changed back to its original form, the verse becomes much clearer:
    Exodus 3:15. And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, Jehovah [or YHWH] God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this [is] my name for ever, and this [is] my memorial unto all generations.
    Here, God's name is clearly and explicitly revealed as Jehovah, or YHWH. He is referred to by this name numerous times in scripture. In short, this is TREATED as His name throughout scripture.
    In contrast, never again is God referred to as “I AM,” or “I AM THAT I AM.” Our identification of this as a name for God depends strictly on our interpretation of Exodus 3:14. It is confirmed no other place in scripture.
    Exodus 6:3 bears witness that the name introduced in Exodus 3 was Jehovah, or YHWH.
    Exodus 6:2-3. 2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I [am] the LORD: 3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by [the name of] God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
    Clearly the name that God revealed to Moses for Himself is YHWH, or Jehovah. What, then, is the significance of “I am that I am,” or “I AM?”
    God used these phrases to introduce His name, and they need to be viewed in that context. The words translated “I am that I am” are EHYEH EHEYEH in the Hebrew. “I AM” is EHYEH in the Hebrew. “Jehovah,” the name given for Himself by God to Moses on this occasion, is made up of two parts: JAH, which is used elsewhere in scripture by itself as God's name, and EHYEH, “I will be.” From this it appears that Exodus 3:14, and the phrases, “I am that
    I am” and “I AM,” are an explanation of the name “Jehovah” given in verse 15.
    From what we've seen so far, it should be pretty clear that the one thing Jesus Christ was NOT doing in John 8:58, when he said, “Before Abraham was, I am,” was identifying himself as God. None of the disciples bowed down and worshipped him as God upon hearing those words; in fact, there is no indication that their very familiar relationship with him changed one bit after this utterance. This is utterly impossible if they, let alone the Jews who did NOT believe him, understood and believed him to be identifying himself as God Almighty.
    But the significance of what we've looked at here goes even further than this. Today it is common for Christians to allege, “Jesus Christ claimed to be God; he either lied or he told the truth.” But when you ask for scriptural references to support this statement, no clear examples of this are to be found. In many cases, the only passages of scripture used in support of this statement are John 8:58 and, occasionally, the other “I am” verses, John 8:24 and 28.
    Without these verses, which were always weak and shaky evidence at best, we are left with no instances during his ministry on earth where Jesus claimed to be God. In light of this, perhaps we should reconsider our own ideas and teachings about this, to make sure that they are in agreement with God's Word.                      END OF QUOTE

    You state the Jesus is claiming to be YAHWEH in John 8:24 and that this is not the only time.  

    Let us look at a statement that Jesus made himself, quoting from Psalms, and see if he himself said the same.

    Mark 12:35  And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David?
    36  For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
    37  David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.

    This should read ‘YAHWEH said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies they footstool’.  Jesus points out that YAHWEH is not speaking to David as Lord, he is speaking of Jesus.  Therefore it is saying ‘YAHWEH said to Jesus, Sit thou at my right hand, till I make thine enemies they foostool’.  This passage clearly shows that Jesus is not YAHWEH  and is not claiming to be.

    You have quoted that when Paul said Jesus was Lord, by Lord he meant YAHWEH.  Please note that Lord is not rendered LORD in the old testatment at all times. As you can see from above Jesus is Lord whilst God is LORD (Yahweh).  This shows that when you refer to Jesus as Lord but when you refer to God it should be as LORD (Yahweh).

    1John 5: 19  We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.  20  And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

    Once again you picked just one verse (20), you must attach verse 19 to better understand this passage (brackets mine).  John is explaining here that we are of God and then how to know the true God.  As John says, *** ’And we know that the Son of God (Jesus) has come and has given us an understanding (by the things he said and the miracles he performed) that we may know Him (God the Father) who is true.  We are in Him who is true (God the Father) and in His Son Jesus Christ (we are in him because we have believed in the Son of God).  This is the true God (God the Father) and eternal life’.  John is stating that the God which Jesus has preached to us is the true God.

                                  * * * * *
    You stated the following after I said that “I worship one God (Yahweh) and I worship Jesus as the Son of God and as Lord”.

    *** ”However, we are taught very specifically in the bible that we are to ONLY worship God and Him alone:” ***    Then you quoted Exodus 34:14 – For thou shalt worship no other god: for Yahweh, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

    I really wish you would read carefully what I say before you quote scripture to correct me.  The above verse says that I should worship no other God but Yahweh.  Please re-read what I said “I worship ONE God (Yahweh) and I worship Jesus as the Son of God and as Lord”. — I worship Jesus as the Son of God, not as God.  So I DO worship only one God.  All the scripture you quoted speaks about worshipping another God.  I do no worship any other God.  You are the one who worships the Son and the Holy spirit as a God, not I.

    Then you quote “If Jesus Christ isn’t God, then there is a big problem we face when we worship Him, since we are only to worship God.  However, you and I are not alone in worshipping Christ.  The following verses show that Jesus is worshipped through the New Testatment:”  then you have quoted bible passages.

    Again you have miss-read what the scripture clearly says.  The Magi worshipped him as King of the Jews.  In the ship they worshipped him as the Son of God.  He was also worshipped as Lord.  The Angels of GOD worshipped him when he came into the world (as a Son).  Please note that NOBODY in these quotes worshipped him as GOD.  So my worshipping Jesus as the Son of God is in keeping with these versus.

    * * * *

    You also quoted the following:

    “Finally, there have been many verses posted showing that Jesus is not the Father.  I completely agree.  These verses refer to Jesus Christ and God as separate persons.  You even have shown that Christ and the Father have different positions, indicating that Christ couldn’t possibly be God. ….”

    Have you read what you wrote.  You have admitted that the verses refer to Jesus and God as separate persons.  I am at a loss to understand your thinking.  You have told me that Jesus is GOD so how can you say this if you have just accepted that the verses show them as separate??
    * * * * *
    I welcome your comments.

    God Bless

    #15268
     Ambassador of Christ 
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    To all:

    I have a lot to respond to, as well as a lot to respond with. However, the one thing I do not have a lot of is time. I just started a full 21 hours of college classes this week, and it eats up all of my time. I wish I had more time to post, but I don’t. If anyone would like to continue this discussion, I would be more than happy to talk with you in a way that allows us to interact faster. I would be happy to meet anyone on Instant Messenger, Paltalk, or MIRC. Again, here is how you can reach me:

    instant messenger name: Tuliptrinitarian or SavedByBelieving

    Paltalk name: Ambassador_of_Christ

    MIRC: Connect with an IRC starlink-irc server, then type /join #prosapologian or /join #apologetics

    That is how you can reach me. I would love to continue talking with all of you in the time I do have, so if you would like, please feel free to set up a time with me and I will meet you on any of those chat programs and we can discuss this subject. I find that Paltalk is a great way to interact in that you can use a microphone. However, I will meet anywhere that is best for you. I believe t8 wants to keep it on the website for others to read, so anything we discuss you can save and post in on your website when you have the time.

    I hope to talk with you soon,

    -God Bless

    #15282
     t8 
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    Thanks Ambassador  for your input so far. Feel free to join in again when and if time becomes available to you again. In the meantime I hope and pray that you will be open, humble and teachable in all things; only then can God lead us on to his great and wonderful purposes and truths that He wants to reveal to us. I will continue to answer the questions and statements you have made, so feel free to read over them even if you don’t make a reply. Anyway I hope your studies go well.

    I invite others to join in this discussion, but before you join in, please read this discussion from the beginning so that we don’t have to go over ground that we have already covered.

    I believe that this subject needs to be discussed in the open. When the trinity doctrine was enforced many hundreds of years ago, it was done so behind closed doors and then forced onto the people using political power. Today we have the opportunity to discuss this doctrine in the open without losing our lives, and discussing this subject in an open way means that we can all be lead into the truth, because the ways of God should not be hidden, but rather light should shine out in the open for all to see.

    #15175
     Ramblinrose 
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    Hi Nonnie

    Noticed you as a New Member but couldn’t see any post. Checked out your Profile and wondered if when you wrote:

    "Want to know what Bible believing – non-trinitarian Christian denominations there are – exclude J W’s and Mormons."

    you might have been intending to post it to the forum. If this is so, I have brought your question across for you. Unfortunately, I can not answer it, t8 may have some knowledge on the subject though and I would be very interested in the answer myself.

    I can understand that you may not wish to post directly to the forum but I would really appreciate it if you and others would make a post which identifies whether you support the Trinity or whether you maybe support the views of t8 or myself. It would be nice just to get an idea of how many people are searching and what they understand from having studied the bible.

    Thank you

    God Bless

    #15191
     t8 
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    My opinion is that we shouldn’t be looking for a denomination at all. I can appreciate that we want to fellowship with others that don’t teach the trinity and that is fair enough, but I believe that God is exposing the doctrine of the trinity for a reason, so that we can come out of Babylon, and we should be careful ourselves not to perpetuate this system of control.

    I am currently doing a writing on Babylon, but in the meantime I want to point out that the meaning of Church and Denomination are different. First of all there is only one Church (Body) and it is called the Body of Christ. The Church is suppose to be in unity and is universal (catholic). On the other hand the word Denomination is similar to the word trinity in the respect that it is not mentioned in the scriptures and is based on mans works. There are over 33,000 different denominations and most glory in their own name, compete with other denominations and they try to build their Kingdoms up to Heaven in their own strength. This is of course similar to what happened with Babel and like Babel the result is division of language, lest men unite in this work of self glorification.

    Denominations are the languages of Christianity, but Jesus prayed that we would be one with him and his Father, just before he died for our sins.

    I believe that we shouldn’t seek to add another denomination or even give this system any kind of credit. The reason why this system of religious division exists is due to the Mother of Denominations the Roman Catholic Church (catholic means universal and the universal church is different to the Roman universal church). The Church’s foundation is Christ and the Apostles. The Roman Catholic Church’s foundation is the Pope and man-made creeds. Each creed is based on the trinity doctrine in some way. Even the daughters (denominations) are based on the trinity doctrine including the Jehovahs Witnesses.

    We should never base a fellowship on a doctrine whether it is for or against. All fellowships should be based on Jesus the Son of God and we should seek God the Father through his Son. It’s not about doctrine. The letter kills but the Spirit gives life.

    Exposing the trinity doctrine is actually striking a lethal blow into the foundation of this harlot religious system that is drunk on the blood of the saints. We shouldn’t seek to destroy with one hand and then build it again with the other. At the same time however we must realise that God’s children are trapped inside this system and we should be careful not to destroy our brothers and sisters in whom Christ died for. We should remain in unity with all our brothers and sisters unless of course they have departed the true faith.

    My advice is to first seek from God, a true vision on what the Church really is, then seek to be a part of that Church and obey the Head of the Church. We should fellowship for sure, but that fellowship is with people who believe that Jesus is the Christ and we can fellowship with our brothers and sisters anywhere and anytime. For who can know which way the wind goes and where it comes, so it should be with the Sons of God. Certainly the wind doesn’t blow the same way every Sunday.

    I did a writing on the meaning of Church. It is located at https://heavennet.net/answers/answer05.htm perhaps this could be a good direction to take this post.

    I am happy to include this subject in the trinity post as I think that the trinity doctrine is actually just an intergral part of something bigger. I pray that God will use each one of us to shine his light into the darkness so that the darkness will be overcome.

    Let me know what you think??

    #15384
     Oneness 
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    Hi all,
    I am new here and I am very interested in the topic of the subject of the Trinity. First I must qualify myself:
    I am a Oneness believer and I see the trinity as a doctine of men which voids God’s Word. You may ask what is a Oneness Believer?

    1.) I Believe in one God as stated in Duet. 6:4 and his name is Jesus.
    2.) The titles , Father , Son and Holy Ghost are manifestations of his relationship with mankind.
    3 )The Bible is the Word of God and does not contradict. If there is a contradiction it lies with the reader.
    4.) The Gospels are the foundation of the New Covenant which speak of the life, teachings , the sacrifical death and resurrection of Jesus, the Christ.
    5.) The Book of Acts are the actions of faith and obedience of Jesus’s Disciples to carry out his commission in Matt 28:19, and salvation is first preached, starting with Acts 2:38.
    6.) The Epistles to the Churches are letters of instruction to esablished Churches and believers., not to unblievers.
    7.) Revelations foretell of Jesus’s return.

    My foundation:
    Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
    Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

    LORD used here is substituted for Jehovah
    Jehovah: I AM, the self exhisting one.
    Please excuse me if I use this form used in the KJV.

    Jesus is Greek for Joshua. Joshua in Hebrew means Jehovah Saves or Jehovah Savoir. It is by this name we know Jehovah, God.

    This form well help me explore his truth and make it more complete to me as a believer if this leads me to be be persuaded to trinitarian view so be it.It is the Lord’s will.

    Vines:Belief, Believe, Believers
    <A-1,Verb,4100,pisteuo>
    "to believe," also "to be persuaded of,"

    My testamony is this:
    For those who do not know me , my name is Larry. I was reborn a year ago this Febuary. Later I well write the long version. I can be long winded in my testamony so I well give the short version:

    By the reading of the word and preaching of the Law, I repented,baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior, and recieved his Holy Spirit as preached by the Apostle Peter in Acts 2:38.

    I first hand to be convinced that:
    1. I was condemed under the Law and I had broken it.
    2. I have been running from God all my life and it was time to stop.

    In 2000 I had started to fell the grip of sin in my life mainly thru this media. What was happening I was enslaved by the crime of adultary thru pronography. My mind and my heart was making me sick spiritual and physicaly. I thought I had converted years ago, false feel good conversions. Even then God had his had on my life.

    My wife was right: sorry says as sorry does. This had to do with other matters in my marriage. In the past I was like that dog our Lord claims returns to its vomit.

    I rasied my Granddaughter and she has always been questioning and looking for God. I only took her to what ever Church was near for Easter. I personally did not want to confront the Light. Well she started going to a UP Church. A family was taking her for about a year. She never preached to me, thank God. I would have bitten her head of if she had then.

    I had made a promise to my self years ago I would only enter a church for two things, weddings and funerals. As for me to kneel, unthinkable. If God and I was to have a relationship it was to be on my terms.

    I had past coversions but nothing stuck. I would read the Bible and when it got personel, put it away. My nature had not changed. I sought understanding thru my native heritage. This gave me some peace but I still hungered for something. I hated inside. I hated God, I keep saying in my deepest of hearts, I did not ask to be born, Why am I here! The answer I keeped getting was: Why Not! The satisfaction I sought, I was not to find in sex, drugs, alcohal, tobacco, sports, recreation or work. Take it from me I looked.

    So I decided to try something: I prayed , I was in my car and I simple asked him at a stop light. God do you want me to go to my granddaughters church, if so give me a sign. A picture of an eagle in what ever form will be it. The light Turned green and behold an eagle on the back of the truck in front of me.

    I asked I got answer so I went: The first two Sundays I stormed out of the church with angry in hy heart. I decided I was going to hang in there. I am a recovering Alcohalic then( I am free now) and I put to use my AA exspirence and decided 90 Church meetings. Well things happened faster then I thought.

    On Feb 12, a Momday at 5 am I suffered a heart attack. While leaving work on a gurney I remember Romans 8:28 ,I prayed: Lord, The time for deals are ove. Any deal I had made in the past I never meant anything by them and I used you Lord to get out of trouble. You where a conveince. Now Lord I am tired of running, What ever you want is OK by me. If ya want me in a pinebox so be it. If you want me out on my two feet so be it. Your well be done. This life is yours do with it as you think best .

    I felt a peace come over me and 10 hours later I left that hospital on my own two feet. The Doctors could not find antthing wrong with my heart. I was healed!

    On Feb 18th My Pastor was preaching on Jonah and the Law and how we keep getting worse and the wrath and judgement to come. I went to the alter and kneeled with tears. I asked tobe baptized that night. Will Malysian brother and sister reported to us what missionaries where doing in there country I received the Holy Ghost with the evidence of the utterence of tongues.

    From that night my life has not been the same.

    Glory the Jesus Christ the author of my Salvation

    I have come to know the true grace of his mercy: At 16, I hung myself and he sent my brother to cut me down. At 26 I had a bleeding ulcer or a type of rupture on Hollween. The next day I went to work and then a hospital . I was told if I had been an hour later I would have been dead. Then this heart attack. The Lord my God could have required of me my soul anytime and taken me in my sins: His grace and mercy he stayed his hand. I thank him ever day.

    In conclussion Ray Comfort is right the Law must be preached: it leads to the Salvation of the Cross. My Lord , my God took my punishment: He bore every blow that should have been laid on my back and my death on that blessed tree. I was to hang there justly not him. That is true Love of a God, who at anytime with a word, could destroy those who punished him. His love stayed his course, love held him not nails. Love like that not even the grave could hold. Three days later He arose! I am free to serve Him: Jesus Christ.

    Oneness

    PS if anyone wants more info on a Onesness denomination please e-mail me.

    #15350
     Oneness 
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    t8 and Others,
    I would like to ask one question. Before I do I need to clerify a point. The doctine of the tirinity is not biblical in accordance with those stated in Hebrews :

    Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
    Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

    The teaching of the trinity is not mentioned.
    The author states that these are the doctrines of Christ.

    My question is: when was the doctrine first taught and by who and when?

    For descussion:

    As to the doctrine of faith towards God:

    The Corner Stone of the Jewish faith:
    Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

    Is this a contradictory statement in the light of trinity doctrine?

    Here is another:

    Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

    Here the LORD states the is no one else. The use is I not we.

    The word" LORD" is used instead of the name in:
    Exo 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

    Only three other times it is used.

    The Name of God is JEHOVAH instead of writing this name the scribes used LORD.

    This leads to another contradictory situation.
    Jesus commands his disciples:
    Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

    What happens Peter either disobeyed or obeyed:
    Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    In every instance of baptism in Acts is done in the Lord’s name. Jesus or Jesus Christ. The is no insident in which anyone was ever baptised in the "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost"

    We know the Father’s Name is JEHOVAH
    We Know the Son’s Name is JESUS
    What is the HOLY GHOST’s name?

    Holy Ghost……………..
    Holy Ghost is God’s spirit and God is spirit right?
    Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    2Sa 23:2 The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.

    there are 31 verse in the OT in which this is used:

    Holy spirit is used 7 times in the OT and NT

    1Th 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

    Holy Ghost is Used 88 times .

    There fore Holy Ghost is JEHOVAH.

    Jesus which is Greek fron the Hebrew Joshua means:
    JEHOVAH SAVES or JEHOVAH SAVIOR

    Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

    Isa 45:15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.

    Isa 45:15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.

    God is the savior.

    Finally
    Peter said:
    Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
    That name is Jesus/ JEHOVAH SAVIOR/ LORD savior.

    The teaching of the trinity does not testify as such and is full of contradictions. OR does the WORD contradict itself?

    One other interesting fact the word, "name", onoma in the Greek takes it singularity or plurality from the context of a sentence. The NT Uses: The sinular is used 184 times in 170 verses , while the plural form names is used is only 12 times in 11 verses.

    In Mat 28:19 name is used as a singular name not plural names. It is a Name which encompasses the different relationships of God to mankind. There is no spliting of personality but a splittng of relationships.

    It is by that name we know the Father, by the same name we know the Son, and by that same name we know the Holy Ghost. Which is Jesus.

    The trinity splits the relationships into seperate persons. There fore denying Deu 6:4. Which leads to a Holy family including a Queen of Heaven, Mary.

    This also denys an omnipresence of God. One who can be three places at once as in:

    Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
    Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    God’s omniprescence

    1Ki 8:27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

    Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
    Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in ####, behold, thou art there.
    Psa 139:9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
    Psa 139:10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
    Psa 139:11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
    Psa 139:12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
    Psa 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother’s womb.

    From my understanding of the doctrine of the trinity is of man and a tradition of man which makes void the Word of God.

    #15315
     Ambassador of Christ 
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    To oneness:

    The trinity is monotheistic. I agree 100% that there is only one God, and his name is Jehovah. The trinity states that God is 3 persons within 1 God, not 3 seperate Gods. To say that trinitarians believe in 3 Gods is false. Trinitarians are also not modelistic. Trinitarians believe that the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Spirit, and the Spirit is not the Father—Three seperate persons, ONE GOD. You can try to argue with the scriptural proof of the trinity, but you cannot argue with the deffinition of the doctorine of the trinity. Does Deu. 6:4 contradict the trinity doctorine? No. Infact, by deffinition, is helps to establish it.

    I think you are correct that the Holy Spirit is Jehovah, however, incorrect that the Holy Spirit is the same person as the Father and Son. Here is a short list of just some of the titles given to the Holy Spirit:

    1) Another Comforter–John 14:16
    2) The Spirit of Truth–John 14:17
    3) The Spirit of Jehovah–Isaiah 11:2
    4) The Spirit of Grace–Hebrews 10:29
    5) The Spirit of Holiness–Romans 1:4
    6) The Spirit of Life–Romans 8:2
    7) The Spirit of Glory–1 Peter 4:14
    8) The Spirit of God–Matthew 3:16
    9) The Holy Spirit–Luke1:35
    10) The Spirit of the Father–Matthew 10:20
    11) The Spirit of the Son–Galatians 4:6
    12) The Spirit of Christ–Romans 8:9
    13) The Spirit of Jesus Christ–Philippians 1:19
    14) Jesus Christ–2 Cor. 13:5

    Finally, based off your belief that Jesus is the Father, the same person, here are a few question to consider:

    1) Is Jesus His own Father?

    2) Was Jesus praying to Himself in the Garden of Gethsemane?

    3) If Jesus’ will and the Father’s will were identical, then why did Jesus express the desire to escape the cup but resigns Himself not to His own will, but the will of the Father?

    4) Since the Bible teaches us that Jesus is in bodily form now (Col. 2:9), then how do you maintain that God is in the form of the Holy Spirit, who of course does not have a body?

    5) If God is only one person, why did Jesus say in John 14:23, "If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." If God is only one person, why does Jesus say, "we"?

    -God Bless

    #15636
     Oneness 
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    Ambassador of Christ,
    Due to my work schedule tomarrow I can not reply at this time. I want to give your post its due consideration. I will make my reply monday. I have to go immediately to work after worship today. I just finished a 10 hour shift and I can not reply in detail to night. I would like you to use a Strongs Concordance and relook over:John 14:23 and see if it was correctly translated.

    I might suggest this free download: e-sword found at:
    http://www.e-sword.net/
    This is a fantastic program a must for a student of the scriptures. It is free! Like having a pastor’s library at your fingertips.

    Tired so I will see you later ,

    May the Lord Bless you with knowledge and wisdom

    #15616
     Oneness 
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    AOC,

    I will open a new Topic of the Oneness of God. I hope to take a step by step approach. I asked a specific question:
    AOC,
    You have not answered my question which I breakdown now into seperate parts:
    1) When was the doctrine first taught?
    2) Who taught of a trinitry?
    3) Where was the trinity taught?
    4) Finally in your words what is the trinity?

    Please do not use biblical refertences till you can answer those questions. Why I make this statement is that the Doctrine of the Trinity is speculation. The trinitarian Protestant theologian Emil Brunner has stated,

    "The doctrine of the Trinity itself, however, is not a Biblical doctrine and this indeed not by accident but of necessity. It is the product of theological reflection upon the problem….. The ecclesiastical doctrine of the Trinity is not only the product of genuine Biblical thought, it is also the product of philosophical speculation, which is remote from the thought of the Bible." Brunner, Emil. The Christian Doctrine of God.(pp. 236-239). This statement taken from David K. Bernard and Loretta A. Bernard’s book,"THE ONENESS OF GOD".

    The important words here IS NOT A BIBLICAL DOCTRINE!
    also: Product of philosophical speculation!
    Also: Is remote from the thought of the Bible

    The Bible which is the WORD of GOD. The Word being his thoughts!
    —————————————————————-
    Found at: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pentecostal/
    click on "Pentecostal Home Page Tree of Documents " to access.

    This Book well answer any questions you may have on the topic.
    ——————————————————————

    The Doctrine of the Trinity is not a biblical doctrine as Mr. Brunner states, then it must be a product of the human mind, a speculation, an invention,there fore a tradition. The Lord stated that by our traditions we make Void the Word of God:

    Mat 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

    IT IS WRITTEN:
    THUS HAVE YOU MADE THE COMANDMENT OF GOD OF NONE EFFECT BY YOUR TRADITION.

    Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

    IT IS WRITTEN:
    FOR LAYING ASIDE THE COMANDMENT OF GOD, YOU HOLD THE TRADITION OF MEN.

    Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

    IT IS WRITTEN:
    FULL WELL YOU REJECT THE COMANDMENT OF GOD, THAT YOU MAY KEEP YOUR OWN TRADITION.

    Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

    IT IS WRITTEN:
    THE COMANDMENT:
    Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
    Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

    Jesus himself reaffirmed this in the Gospels:(Mat_22:37-38; Mar_12:29-30; Luk_10:27)

    IT IS WRITTEN: concerning the heart/ways/thoughts of man:

    Psa 10:3 For the wicked boasteth of his heart’s desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the LORD abhorreth.

    Pro 14:14 The backslider in heart shall be filled with his own ways: and a good man shall be satisfied from himself.

    Pro 19:21 There are many devices in a man’s heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

    Pro 28:26 He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.

    Deu 11:16 Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them;

    Pro 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

    Pro 16:2 All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits.

    Job 24:13 They are of those that rebel against the light; they know not the ways thereof, nor abide in the paths thereof.

    Job 34:11 For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways.

    Pro 2:15 Whose ways are crooked, and they froward(deceitful) in their paths:

    Job 34:27 Because they turned back from him( The Lord), and would not consider any of his ways:

    Pro 2:15 (Man’s) Whose ways are crooked, and they froward ( deceitful) in their paths:

    Pro 5:21 For the ways of man are before the eyes of the LORD, and he pondereth all his goings.

    Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him (Jesus) the iniquity of us all.

    Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
    Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
    Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

    The Doctrine of a One God rings thru the Old Testament! Does God Change? The Trinity doctrine states there are three persons( three distict personalities), seperate persons Acting as One, which is called God. This is a triad, This is Tritheism. This doctine is contradictory to ONE GOD.

    I have provided the following term from
    David K. Bernard and Loretta A. Bernard’s book,"THE ONENESS OF GOD".

    Definition of :

    Tritheism:
    Belief in three gods. As such, it is a form of polytheism. Advocates of trinitarianism deny that they are tritheists; however, trinitarianism certainly has tritheistic tendencies and some extreme forms of trinitarianism are tritheistic. For example, any belief that there are three self-conscious minds in the Godhead or three eternal bodies in the Godhead can properly be called tritheism.

    AOC We must define the terms before we can properly discuss the subject:

    #15597
     t8 
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    To Oneness

    I won’t give a definition of the trinity because I do not believe in the doctrine. But I just want to say that I have heard about the oneness doctrine and like Ambassador of Christ I do not agree with it.

    In addition to the points that Ambassador has made, I would like to add this one.

    Matthew 24:36
    "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

    From a Oneness point of view we would have to assume that When God appears as the Father he knows when he will come back to earth as the Son and when he appears as the Son he doesn’t know until he changes back as the Father.

    From a trinitarian point of view we also have a problem because if Jesus is the Most High God then how come only the Father knows when he is coming to the earth. This verse shows us that the Father has appointed this and Jesus is subject to the Fathers will and doesn’t have the complete knowledge that his Father has.
    ===============

    To conclude I think that both the Oneness and trinity doctrine are the mind of man and the mind of man always leads to division and we all know that a Kingdom cannot stand if it is divided. Of course Satan knows this and he concentrates alot of effort in causing division amongst God’s people. It is even prophecied that many will turn away from the truth and turn to doctrines of demons in the last days.

    I think it is sad that men who have been saved by the grace of God, then fall for these doctrines which came about by demons through mans selfish ambition. For sure the one who lays the stumbling block is judged severly but we do not have to trip over them. We still have a choice.

    Ever since men started creeds and their own doctrine we have had nothing but trouble and division and I am amazed that many of us cannot see this.

    Who amongst us will trust in the scriptures and the leading of the Holy Spirit because to do this means to also not trust in the words of men.

    #15578
     Ambassador of Christ 
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    Oneness:

    You said: "Please do not use biblical references till you can answer those questions. Why I make this statement is that the Doctrine of the Trinity is speculation."

    You accuse me of going outside of scripture to prove the Trinity, and then you tell me NOT to use scripture. . . .Well, no sir. I will stick to scripture. If you want information further than scripture, you can find information on the questions you asked me at the following site: http://aomin.org/CHALC.html That site will answer any questions you might have as far as early church fathers, scriptural proofs and defenses for the Trinity, audio debates between Trinitarians and Oneness, etc. I think you will find it to have a wealth of information.

    You also stated: "Advocates of trinitarianism deny that they are tritheists; however, trinitarianism certainly has tritheistic tendencies and some extreme forms of trinitarianism are tritheistic. For example, any belief that there are three self-conscious minds in the Godhead or three eternal bodies in the Godhead can properly be called tritheism. "

    –A Trinitarian cannot believe in more than one God. If he does, by definition, he is not a Trinitarian. How many times must it be said? The Trinity is absolutely MONOTHEISTIC. Judging by your statements attacking the Trinity, you either do not understand what the doctrine is, or you deliberately build a straw man. Before attacking the Trinity, make sure you understand it.

    Finally, you said: ”The Doctrine of the Trinity is not a biblical doctrine as Mr. Brunner states, then it must be a product of the human mind, a speculation, an invention,there fore a tradition. The Lord stated that by our traditions we make Void the Word of God:”

    –You tell me that the Doctrine of the Trinity is not biblical, yet instead of backing that with scripture, you point to a statement made by a member of UPC. If you intend attempt to prove modalism a biblical understanding of God, then by all means, answer the problems it raises, but do so WITH SCRIPTURE.

    -God Bless

    #15559
     Oneness 
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    AOC,
    You asked these questions and I will answer them.
    You wrote*********
    Finally, based off your belief that Jesus is the Father, the same person, here are a few question to consider:

    1) Is Jesus His own Father?

    2) Was Jesus praying to Himself in the Garden of Gethsemane?

    3) If Jesus’ will and the Father’s will were identical, then why did Jesus express the desire to escape the cup but resigns Himself not to His own will, but the will of the Father?

    4) Since the Bible teaches us that Jesus is in bodily form now (Col. 2:9), then how do you maintain that God is in the form of the Holy Spirit, who of course does not have a body?

    5) If God is only one person, why did Jesus say in John 14:23, "If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." If God is only one person, why does Jesus say, "we"?***********

    My comments will be ()
    ———————————————————————
    1) Is Jesus His own Father?-YES

    With the the understanding:
    Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
    2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    So let us rightly divide the Word of Truth:

    Scriptures:
    Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD( Jehovah), thy redeemer( Jesus is the Redeerer), and he( Jehovah) that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD(Jehovah) that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

    (This verse shows that the LORD:JEHOVAH Created ALL things by himself.)
    ( The statement also states his relation to man: Jehovah Redeemer.)
    ( This states he is a single person/being by the use of "I" and restates it again with "MYSELF".If the LORD was a trinity would he )
    (not say so?)( I can show spriture upon scripture to stress this one point from the very mouth of the LORD.)

    We start with Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    ( ALL STUDENTS OF THE BIBLE agree this is a prophecy of the Messiah)

    1. "For unto us a child is born,"

    He will be human born, a man with the body and a soul. see
    Isa 7:14,Luk 1:31,Phi 2:7-8, Heb 4:15,Gal 4:4; these verse speak of the Lord’s humanity. After the flesh he is man.

    2."unto us a son is given:"
    This human will be someones son and there for having a father and a mother, see: Isa 7:14,Mat 1:18-29,Luke 1:26-34 speak of the Mother, the Human Nature of the Messhiah. The Devine Father of Spirit, see: Mat 1:18,Luk 1:35

    We agree the the Holy Ghost/Spirit is GOD there for JEHOVAH, since God is spirit right. see: 1Ki 8:27,Psa 139:11-12,Jer 23:21-27,Joh 4:24,Act 7:48-49,Act 17:24-28,

    We see by the Father whose name is Jehovah is God and He has a son by a human girl,a virgin. The egg is human. the sperm none! but by the Power of God: Jehovah in his role as HOLY GHOST/SPIRIT. The HOLY GHOST/SPIRIT is the Father.

    We can conclude that the son will be both man fully and Fully God.
    God: Jehovah, manifested in the flesh.
    John wrote:Joh 1:14
    Paul wrote:Rom 1:3,1Ti 3:16

    3. "and the government shall be upon his shoulder:"

    This Child will have all authority: See: Mat 28:18
    King’s Birth: Matt 2:1-6,Luk 1:31-33;
    God’s Kingdom:Luk 17:20-21,;
    King enters Jerusalem:Luk 19:32-38,;
    When asked:Luk 23:3,Joh 18:37,Joh 19:21;
    Nathanael declared it:Joh 1:49,
    Paul recognized him as Lord:Act 9:3-6 who a pharasee grounded in Deu 6:4,Deu 32:39, and the writtings of the prophets such as Isaiah: Isa 44:6-8,Isa 45:2-6, Isa 45:21-24,
    Isa 46:8-9,
    Paul wrote: 1Co 8:4-6,Eph 4:4-6,1Ti 2:5-6,
    James wrote:Jam 2:19;
    John writes in Revelations of ONE thrown in heaven:Rev 4:2-3,One King:Rev 15:1-4,Rev 19:10-16.

    4."and his name shall be called"
    These names will idenitify the Messhiah

    A. "Wonderful," Hebrew means "miracle" See Isa 7:14
    This child will work miracles: The healings, casting out demons, raising the dead, feeding vast crowds, control over elements and forgiving sin. see Psa 40:5,Psa 78:4,Psa 107:8,Psa 107:15,Psa 107:31,
    Psa 111:4,Psa 119:129,Psa 139:6,Isa 25:1,Isa 28:29,Mat 21:15,Act 2:11,

    B. "Counsellor, These verses speak of the counsel ofthe LORD/JEHOVAH"Exo 18:19,Jos 9:14,Jdg 18:5,Jdg 20:18,Jdg 20:23,
    1Sa 14:37,Psa 16:7,Psa 20:4,Psa 33:11,Psa 107:11,Pro 1:30,
    Pro 8:14,Isa 5:19,Isa 11:2,Isa 19:17,Isa 28:29,Jer 23:18,Jer 23:22,Jer 32:19,Mic 4:12,Act 20:27,Eph 1:11,Heb 6:17,Rev 3:18

    TSK see:Isa_28:29; Zec_6:13; Luk_21:15; Joh_1:16; 1Co_1:30; Col_2:3;

    C. "The mighty God,"

    mighty in reference to a 2) strong man, brave man, mighty man and God in reference to deity= God, the one true God, Jehovah See:,Isa_10:21,1Ti 3:16,Tit 2:13 We have the two natures of Jesus man and God

    TSK: See:Isa_45:24; Isa_45:25; Psa_45:3; Psa_45:6; Psa_50:1; Jer_23:5; Jer_23:6; Joh_1:1; Joh_1:2; Act_20:28; Rom_9:5; Tit_2:13; Heb_1:8; 1Jo_5:20;

    D. "The everlasting Father," Same Child be the "everlasting Father"
    Jesus claimed many time that he and the Father are one. In other words one in the same. See: Joh_10:30; Joh_14:9

    TSK see: Isa_8:18; Isa_53:10; Pro_8:23; Heb_2:13; Heb_2:14;

    Or are there two Fathers?

    E. "The Prince of Peace. "

    JFB: (See on Isa_9:5; Gen_49:10; Shiloh, "The Tranquillizer"). Finally (Hos_2:18). Even already He is "our peace" (Luk_2:14; Eph_2:14).

    TSK See:Isa_11:6-9; Isa_53:5; Psa_72:3; Psa_72:7; Psa_85:10; Dan_9:24; Dan_9:25; Mic_5:4; Mic_5:5; Luk_2:14; Joh_14:27; Act_10:36; Rom_5:1-10; 2Co_5:19; Eph_2:14-18; Col_1:20; Col_1:21; Heb_7:2; Heb_7:3; Heb_13:20;

    ———————————————————————-
    2) Was Jesus praying to Himself in the Garden of Gethsemane?

    This is the human nature in submission to the devine nature which is Jehovah.

    ————————————————————————-

    3) If Jesus’ will and the Father’s will were identical, then why did Jesus express the desire to escape the cup but resigns Himself not to His own will, but the will of the Father?

    By Human nature the body does not want to die. Jesus in his humanity was spotless with out sin and did not want to take on the sin which would seperate the perfect human nature from that of God. This gives a new light to Pauls words: For wages of sin is death. As a sinless man Jesus could live forever! He takes on the sins of the world, past present and future, thus fulfilling the law and its reward death.
    Yet the Human flesh nature was brought into perfect submission to the Godily nature.
    To see the two natures of Jesus is no different then we as saved children with the Holy Ghost in us. Our human flesh nature is at war with spirtual nature we have. This Paul wrote about in his letter Romans. We try to follow Jesus’s example of complete trusting submission.
    ——————————————————————-

    4) Since the Bible teaches us that Jesus is in bodily form now (Col. 2:9), then how do you maintain that God is in the form of the Holy Spirit, who of course does not have a body?

    He does have a body, that of the human glorified body of Christ: Paul did write that God manifested himself in flesh and this entire lesson proves that.

    Why the omipresence of God. If he is not then we believe a lie.
    Solomon recognized this:1Ki_8:27;2Ch_2:6; 2Ch_6:18
    Isaiah Isa_66:1; Paul:Act_7:49 ;Act_17:27-28
    David: Psa 139:7-13
    —————————————————————-

    5) If God is only one person, why did Jesus say in John 14:23, "If a man love me, he
    will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." If God is only one person, why does Jesus say, "we"?

    From" Oneness of God"Chapter 8
    A number of times Jesus referred to the Father and Himself in the plural. These passages are in the Book of John, the New Testament writer who more than any other identified Jesus as God and the Father It is wrong for anyone to suppose this plural usage to mean that Jesus is a separate person in the Godhead from the Father. However, it does indicate a distinction between the deity (Father) and humanity (Son) of Jesus Christ. The Son, who is visible, revealed the Father, who is invisible. Thus, Jesus said, "If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also" (John 8:19); "The Father hath not left me alone (John 8:29); "He that hateth me hateth my Father also" (John 15:23); "Now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father" (John 15:24); and "I am not alone, because the Father is with me" (John 16:32). These verses of Scripture use the plural to express a consistent theme: Jesus is not just a man, but He is God also. Jesus was not an ordinary man as He appeared to be outwardly. He was not alone, but He had the Spirit of the Father within Him. This explains the dual nature of Jesus and reveals the oneness of God.
    ——————————————————————–

    Conclussion: Jesus walked this world was both man and God. He was God Jehovah manifested in the flesh, who step down off his throne, stripped himself of power and glory, and became a common member of his creation, man. Many seperate this one fact" he was man" and only recognize the devine.
    ——————————————————————
    AOC,
    I answered your questions . Can you answer mine?

    1. Did Jesus Christ have two fathers? The Father is the Father of the Son (I John 1:3), yet the child born of Mary was conceived by the Holy Ghost (Matthew 1:18, 20; Luke 1:35). Which one is the true father? Some trinitarians say that the Holy Ghost was merely the Father’s agent in conception – a process they compare to artificial insemination!

    2. How many Spirits are there? God the Father is a Spirit (John 4:24), the Lord Jesus is a Spirit (II Corinthians 3:17), and the Holy Spirit is a Spirit by definition. Yet there is one Spirit (I Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 4:4).

    3. If Father and Son are co-equal persons,
    Why did Jesus pray to the Father? (Matthew 11:25). Can God pray to God?

    4. If Father and Son are co-equal persons, How can the Son not know as much as the Father? (Matthew 24:36; Mark 13:32).

    5. If Father and Son are co-equal persons, how can the Son not have any power except what the Father gives Him? (John 5:19, 30; 6:38).

    6. If Father and Son are co-equal persons, what about other verses of Scripture indicating the inequality of the Son and the Father? (John 8:42; 14:28; I Corinthians 11:3).

    One last Statement:
    Mono means One, while tri means three.

    They are not the same no matter how you may insist so.

    Last Question: In which verse and in which book of scripture is the word trinity found?

    If not then which Greek or Hebrew word translates to three in one or trinity?

    I can point to numerous books and verse’s that state "one."

    May the Lord Bless You
    with knowledge and wisdom
    ———————————————————————–
    t8,

    Bless you t8 for saying we can agree to disagree.

    You brought up the verse:***********
    Matthew 24:36
    "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

    From a Oneness point of view we would have to assume that When God appears as the Father he knows when he will come back to earth as the Son and when he appears as the Son he doesn’t know until he changes back as the Father.***********
    ————————————————————————
    By now you have read this entire post. If you studied it the major theme is the dual nature of Jesus Christ while he walked on this earth. That nature was fully man and fully God. The God nature within kept things hidden from the human flesh nature of the Son. There for no contradiction.
    ————————————————————————
    t8 you wrote:*****************
    To conclude I think that both the Oneness and trinity doctrine are the mind of man and the mind of man always leads to division and we all know that a Kingdom cannot stand if it is divided. Of course Satan knows this and he concentrates alot of effort in causing division amongst God’s people. It is even prophecied that many will turn away from the truth and turn to doctrines of demons in the last days.
    ———————————————————————–
    You speak true words concerning tradtion. When I speak or others speak of oneness , we do so with a deep belief in the principle statement:

    Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
    Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
    Deu 6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

    So anything in doctrine, philosophy or idea which states otherwise is a lie and a counterfiet.

    If a reader reads a contradiction in the scripture , who is wrong? The scriptures or the reader? If there is confussion who is the author? So any teaching/ doctrine must remove all contradiction. true + true=true

    The majority of the world is trinitarian buying a lie. The truth is there is one God and his name is Jesus. No other. The titles of Father, Son and Holy Ghost are roles/ manifestaions of the one God. All three can exsist at the same time by his onipresence and his devine power.
    As Paul wrote:
    Col 2:9 For in him( Jesus) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    t8 what does Paul mean by" all"?

    What is the purpose of God’s devine Word?

    Jesus said:
    Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

    The Author of Hebrews wrote:
    Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

    A CONTRADICTION IS A LIE. A CONTRIDICTION IS CONFUSSION. SO WHO IS THE AUTHOR?

    May the Lord Bless you with His Truth.

    #15541
     Ambassador of Christ 
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    In Response to Oneness:

    I’m just going to start from the top of your post and go down in response.

    You said: “( This states he is a single person/being by the use of "I" and restates it again with "MYSELF".If the LORD was a trinity would he )
    (not say so?)( I can show spriture upon scripture to stress this one point from the very mouth of the LORD.)”

    —First of all, you are interchanging the terms person and being. Being is what God is. His being is his nature. I am a human being, whereas God is a divine being. God’s name is Jehovah (YAHWEH). Jehovah is ONE. He is one God, not 3. He is the only true God. You are drawing from this verse the term uni-personal, or the idea that God is only one person. Let the text speak for itself. It does not say God is one “person”. I too have plenty scripture that states the Lord is ONE. I have no problem with that. However, you read that and assume based off your own presuppositions that that has to mean one person. Again, you cannot show me a passage that says God is uni-personal anymore than I can show you any one passage that says God is tri-personal. If we are to prove one of these beliefs true, we must do so by looking at scripture as a whole and letting scripture speak for it self.

    You also cited Isaiah 9:6 to show that Jesus Christ is the Father. Lets examine that verse:

    Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    Note that the verse says “and his name shall be called.” This statement is letting us know that these are names applied to the Messiah. One of the Messiah’s names is “eternal Father.” This passage does not say that the Messiah “IS” the eternal Father, it simply applies a name to him. In ancient Jewish culture, names often represented something else. For example, Isaac means laughter. The meaning of the name is characteristic of the person it is applied to. If this verse were indicating that Christ is God the Father, then why isn’t he called “Heavenly Father” throughout scripture? Christ is the SON, not the Father. If you stay consistent in your understanding of Isaiah 9:6, then in stating that Jesus IS the eternal Father, by definition, he cannot be the son. The verse says “eternal.” That means Jesus would have to be the Father for eternity. There could never be a point in time when he is not the Father. God’s mode could never change to become the Son if you stay consistent. Obviously, this verse is not saying that Jesus IS the person in the Godhead that is the Father. Rather, it is applying an attribute to Christ.

    You also quoted from john 10:30 “I and my Father are one.”
    Again, you read this passage and understand it to mean one “PERSON.” Not only is that not in the text, it is not consistent with the context of the chapter. Lets look at this section in context starting at verse 24:

    24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
    25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
    26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
    27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
    30 I and my Father are one.
    31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
    32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
    33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

    The Jews are questioning Jesus by asking him to say once and for all if he is or is not the Christ. Jesus responds by telling them that he has already shown himself to be the Christ, however they did not believe. He gives a reason for their unbelief; that they are not of his sheep. Only his sheep hear his voice, believe, and follow. Christ then goes explain that only his sheep have eternal life (also asserting that those whom he is talking to do not). Christ makes it clear that his sheep will NEVER perish. He says “neither shall any man pluck them out of MY hand.” Nobody can pluck them out of CHRIST’S hand. The very next verse, he explains that his sheep were given to him by his Father. First of all, if Christ is the Father, he wouldn’t need to give them to himself. Secondly, Christ makes the point that no man can pluck his sheep out of his Father’s hand either. Clearly, Christ is making a distinction between himself and the Father. The context of this passage is that nobody has the power to take anything away from God. No man can take the sheep away from Christ anymore than they could take them away from the Father. Christ shares the same amount of authority and power as does the Father. They are one, not in person, but in power. They fully share the same divine power. They are one in the fact that they are both God. This is exactly the context of the passage. Because Jesus makes this statement, the Jews try to stone him for blasphemy. How did he blaspheme? He did so by claiming himself to be God. We can look down to verse 33 and see that even the Jews clearly understood that Jesus was claiming full equality and deity with the Father.

    You also responded to the question “Was Jesus praying to Himself in the Garden of Gethsemane?” by saying:

    This is the human nature in submission to the divine nature which is Jehovah.

    —This understanding raises contradictions both in the bible and in your own theology.
    First, even if Christ was praying from his human nature to his divine nature, you cannot avoid the fact that he is praying to another person, namely the Father. But in your understanding, the Son is the Father. Jesus is praying to the Father, but he still exists as the Son. This would force God to take on two persons at one time. This contradicts your belief that God is uni-personal (one person).
    Second, you cannot divide Christ into two parts. When you say Christ was praying from his humanity to his deity, you are breaking Him into two persons, a human person and a divine person. Christ cannot be two persons at once; scripture simply does not allow it. The Word became flesh. Christ is both fully God and fully human. Those natures are inseparable. He is the God-man (col. 2:9).

    Your response to the question of the Father and the Son having separate wills was a little hard for me to understand. Your response fails to see that the Father and Son each have separate wills. It also separates Christ’s human nature from his divine nature. You cannot break up the one person of Christ by separating his two natures. Christ is one person. To have a will is to have self-awareness and distinctiveness, and individuality. The Father and Son do not share one will. Although the Father and Son have separate wills, they are always in agreement.

    You responded to my question: “Since the Bible teaches us that Jesus is in bodily form now (Col. 2:9), then how do you maintain that God is in the form of the Holy Spirit, who of course does not have a body?” -by saying that the Holy Spirit does in fact human body. Can you show me one verse that says the Holy Spirit is anything other than Spirit? Yes, God was manifest in the flesh, but Paul is clearly referring to Christ, NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT. You are referring to 1 Timothy 3:16 from the KJV when you cite that. Read the entire verse. It is talking about Christ. If you are still unsure, refer to John 1:14 which clearly states that Christ is the one that became flesh.
    The Holy Spirit abides in a believer (2 cor. 13:5). A human body cannot abide within another human body; that is simply ridiculous. God is spirit (John 4:24).

    In response to my question: “If God is only one person, why did Jesus say in John 14:23, "If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." If God is only one person, why does Jesus say, "we"?”

    You stated “These verses of Scripture use the plural to express a consistent theme: Jesus is not just a man, but He is God also. Jesus was not an ordinary man as He appeared to be outwardly. He was not alone, but He had the Spirit of the Father within Him. This explains the dual nature of Jesus and reveals the oneness of God.”

    –Based off your understanding of this verse, “we” simply refers to the two natures of Christ, deity and humanity. The verse also says “and we will come unto him, and make our abode within him.” So Christ’s deity and humanity are going to abide within a believer???? You are saying that Christ’s physical, glorified body is going to come inside a believer??? It is completely irrational to say that right now, a 6 foot Palestinian Jew is dwelling inside of my body in full human form. This verse is clearly presenting two persons, namely the Father and Son.

    ****Please keep in mind it is not my intention to be unloving in anyway. I am simply trying to show you your answers are unbiblical and at times illogical. I care about you and I want you to see the truth. We are taught in scripture to gently correct and help others with scripture (2 timothy 3:16, 1 Peter 3:15). I don’t know any other way to do so without showing you that you are in error.

    I will respond to the questions you asked me as soon as I can.

    -God Bless

    #15523
     t8 
    Participant
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    To Oneness,

    I assume that you have not read the whole Post, so I will have to repeat some statements and scriptures mentioned earlier. In case you are not aware, I am certainly not an advocate of the trinity or oneness theology/formula. I believe they are doctrines of demons channeled through selfish ambition and pride. The nature of Man will always make idols in the place of God, because the carnal nature can never come into subjection to the will of God. A representation of God made by hands must start as an image in the mind and this is what the trinity and oneness doctrines are, idols created in the mind of man that have actually been made into idols made of wood, stone etc. It’s absolute foolishness disguised as wisdom but underneath it is just pride in the intellect of certain individuals who have lead many astray by laying stumbling blocks. These doctrines don’t even claim inspiration as far as I know, yet the scriptures do. Strangest thing af all is that you can contradict scripture, but if you contradict a creed then you are a Heretic, (punishable by death during the dark ages). Many don’t realise that their actions are trying to bring back this darkness.

    The Bible states that the Father is God, I think we can all agree on this. Jesus is the Son of God, the Christ, the Messiah, the Word and Lord. This is very clear from scripture. There is no human reasoning needed as the scriptures are very plain in explaining such things.

    Now the Church is built on the truth that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. (see Matthew 16:16-18) To divide over theologies like Oneness and Trinity is to go against the very foundation that Jesus built his Church on and I can only conclude that these doctrines cause division as all things that come from the mind of man will do. It was also our Lords will that we become one. He said this the day he was crucified. See (John 17:21). If you knew you were going to die today, I am sure that the words and prayers you uttered would be of utmost importance. Jesus says that we can be one with him and with the Father AS THEY ARE ONE. With a Oneness slant we would have to assume that we are going to be God as well, given your definition of one.

    Anyway these doctrines put a wedge between believers and create divisions for sure. We will all be judged for our teachings and teachers judgement will be stricter than most. We must watch our doctrine closely and we are directly responsible for what we teach. I think it is wise to stick to scripture and keep away from creeds and man made doctrine. It is on your own head.

    You mention Isa 9:6: For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    I will repeat that the mighty God title is very different to the Most High God. Jesus calls us gods too in John 10:34 which is a quote from Psalm 82:6. Infact idols, satan and and men are called god or gods, (theos & eloyhim). However Paul tells us that there are many gods but for us there is one God the Father and then Jesus is identified as the one Lord. Also you assume that Jesus is the Heavenly Father from the title everlasting Father. The use of the word Father here is related to the use of Abraham being our Father. But Jesus is our everlasting Father. It doesn’t say Heavenly Father. If Abraham is our Father, then what justification do we have to say that he must be God because he is our Father?

    1 Corinthians 15:27 Tells us a mystery but it also indirectly shows us that Jesus is not God, (the Most High God). For he "has put everything under his feet. Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

    Also, please note that "Every knee shall bow and every toungue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord" (not God) and "The Word became Flesh and dwelt amongst us" (God didn’t became flesh and He never will).

    Central to teachings in the scripture is the identity of Jesus. Trinitarians say he is one of 3 parts of one God. Oneness doctrine says that he is God the Father. But the scriptures TEACH that Jesus Christ is Lord, the Word, the Messiah, the Christ, the Saviour, the only begotten (born) Son of God. Jesus is also the Mediator between God and Man. God didn’t die for our sins (Satan would love you to believe this) but rather the Son of God died for us and this is why he is the only way to God because he is the only one between God and Man.

    Trinity and Oneness teachings are at best opinions and at worst false doctrine. Yet it is rather strange that the majority of christians who believe the trinity doctrine do not really except christians who do not believe the doctrine, (I am not sure what treatment oneness christians dish out to believers who don’t follow THEIR doctrine). This whole scenario is very distasteful and full of the stupidity of man.

    In fact some Christians believe that the trinity doctrine is central to salvation, even though it is clearly not scriptural to believe this. Again I remind you of Peters confession about Jesus. Peter never said at that opportune moment that he was God, like trinitarians or oneness people would have, he simply acknowledged that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. Jesus built his Church on this. Now these doctrines seek to add another foundation from the one that Christ and the Apostles laid. Let those gospels be eternally cursed. I do not apologise if I seem harsh here. But you are responsible for every person you turn to this doctrine, same for those who teach the trinity.

    Here is my confession if you wish to judge me:

    John 17:3 (English-NIV)
    Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
    Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

    Ephesians 4:4-6 (English-NIV)
    4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
    5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
    6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

    Oneness, I invite you to read http://www.heaven.net.nz/answers/answer08b.htm it should save us alot of time when we all know where we are coming from.

    #15452
     Oneness 
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    t8,
    I will take your advice and read and study:
    <a href="https://heavennet.net/answers/answer08d.htm

    Oneness.” target=”_blank”>https://heavennet.net/answers/answer08d.htm

    Oneness.

    #15469
     t8 
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    #15417
     Archieve 
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    I have asked this question on boards where people believe in a trinity and I haven’t had one person to give me an answer.

    The question is – When God sent Jesus to earth, what did he send?

    The bible is clear that when God sends The Holy Ghost, he is sending his Spirit.

    I have also asked this question on the boards –

    When I read and see the word (God) in the New Testament, who am I reading about?

    One lady told me that when I read about (God) in the New Testament – that I am reading about (God the Father, God the Son and God The Holy Ghost).

    Lets say that was true, which I know it isn’t, but lets say she was right, guess what that would have made John?

    John said  –

    St. John 1:18 (No man hath seen God at any time); the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he had declared him.

    I John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time, If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

    According to the trinity doctrine – (God, Jesus and The Holy Ghost is the One God), so the question is – (Which God was John talking about)?

    John didn’t say, No one hath seen God the Father at any time. (I know that God – is God the Father – The bible is clear on that).

    John didn’t say, No man hath seen God the Son at any time.

    John didn’t say, No man hath seen God The Holy Ghost at any time.

    So – is there another God that we don’t know about?

    Love,

    Archieve

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