Preexistence (Part 2)

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  • #226043
     gollamudi 
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    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 22 2010,23:18)
    Mike Boll,

    You seem to forget that God unlike human beings are all knowing so while a woman does not know which great-great-great-great granddaughter yet non-conceived she has willed her ring to or even if she will have one God does.  He can even specify the child’s name and her ancestors clear back to the woman as well as the exact times and location of their births. That is why scripture states:

    Jeremiah 1:5(NIV) reads:

    Quote

    “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

    And also:

    Ephesians 1:4(NIV) reads:

    Quote

    For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—


    Good post brother Kerwin. Brother Mike thinks that God is like human being who can not know his great-great-great…..great grand children. God sees end from the beginning as our brother Gene quotes here. Concept of Messiah was formed in the councils of God before the foundations of the world even as per Jewish Talmud. Here it is a wonderful article I hope it may be useful to you-

    The Hebrew Mind and Preexistence:

    The importance of this topic cannot be overemphasized because the need to understand scripture from the CONTEXT in which it was written is a leading cause of the lack of understanding covered by this article. It is crucial for us to understand what was written from the context of those that wrote it, and from the times in which it was written. It is an irrefutable fact that nearly ALL the authors were Jews that thought, lived, and wrote entirely within a Hebraic framework. Therefore, it is critical to interpret the Bible within the proper context — and that task is just as relevant to the issue of preexistence as it is to anything else.

    The topic of “preexistence” is especially applicable to the book of John; however, it is also applicable to the entire New Testament writings. There is no better example of the tragic breakdown in communicating Jewish writings to the Western world than has occurred with the concept of “preexistence”. The typical understanding of John's writings is the result of a failure (in fact, premeditated misrepresentation) to properly describe the Hebraic concept of this crucial issue. In particular, the common Christian concept of the preexistence of the Messiah has been divorced from the purely Hebraic mind set of the New Testament authors. Two of the many catastrophic outcomes of abandoning this Judaic context are the Trinity and the belief that Yeshua is God. Many reject the Trinity yet still cling to the belief that Yeshua is “God” because of confusion over the question of preexistence At the very least, the book of John has been grossly misinterpreted because of the failure to apply the proper context to it's interpretation.

    We need only reference a single Hebraic source to clarify the issue. The clarity of the reference leaves no room for misunderstanding, and removes the veil of deceit so long used by the church to conceal the truth. Following is a quote from Everyman's Talmud — The Major Teachings of the Rabbinic Sages, by Abraham Cohen. It should be realized this is the GENERAL, STANDARD HEBRAIC understanding of this issue. This quote is on page 347 and is taken from the section which discusses the Messiah in the chapter on the “Hereafter.”

    The belief was general that the sending of the Messiah was part of the Creator's plan at the inception of the Universe. “Seven things were created before the world was created: Torah, repentance, the Garden of Eden (i.e. Paradise), Gehinnom, the Throne of Glory, the Temple, and the name of the Messiah” (Pes. 54a). In a later work there is the observation: “From the beginning of the creation of the world king Messiah was born, for he entered the mind (of God) before even the world was created” (Pesikta Rab. 152b)

    So, here we see how the “preexistence” of the Messiah was understood by the Jewish mind. Remember that NEARLY ALL THE BIBLE'S WRITERS WERE JEWISH! The Messiah was “born” in the MIND (thought, motive, plan) of YEHOVAH God before creation but did NOT literally exist! The concept of a PHYSICAL literal preexistence is arrived at by most Christians only because they have unknowingly (or knowingly) abandoned the Jewish concept. We can't overemphasize this issue. It's importance is unequaled. IT MUST BE NOTED how the preexistence of the Messiah is defined in terms of his (the Messiah's) existence IN THE MIND OF YEHOVAH GOD the Father since before Creation. There is absolutely no literal preexistence assumed at all! Why? Because the Hebraic mind is so overwhelmed and awed by the magnificence, power, splendor, and infinite nature of YEHOVAH God that it assumes to “exist” whatever is in YEHOVAH's mind long before His “thought” actually physically manifests itself. The certainty of YEHOVAH's plan (thought) makes it as though the “thought” had already happened. YEHOVAH's intent or thought or motive or plan is so certain that it is said to “exist” despite its absence in the physical world! Obviously, since the “intent” or “plan” or “motive” of YEHOVAH God has always included the coming Messiah, the Hebraic mind assumes him (the Messiah) to have “existed” in the Mind of YEHOVAH since before creation! However, this “preexistence” was NOT considered literal or physical!

    This concept is corroborated by Paul in the New Testament. In Paul's epistle to the Church of YEHOVAH God in Rome we find the following:

    Romans 4:17: Just as it is written: “I have appointed you a father of many nations.” This was in the sight of the One in whom he had faith, even of God, who makes the dead alive and CALLS THE THINGS THAT ARE NOT AS THOUGH THEY WERE (The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures).

    The phrase “calls the things that are not as though they were” has as its literal rendering, shown in the center column reference of the NASB, “calls the things which do not exist as existing”. The New King James Version renders this phrase as, “calls those things which do not exist as though they did,” These phrases present PRECISELY the same idea as the Hebraic concept just outlined. And no wonder, since Paul was a “Hebrew of Hebrews.” So, in his epistle, Paul provides STRONG evidence that supports the traditional Jewish meaning of preexistence in his description of YEHOVAH as a “God who … calls those things which do not exist as though they did.” Therefore, for those that wish proof from the New Testament, you now have it! Better yet, it comes from the very epistle — and the very apostle — Traditional Christianity exalts the most! For those of you that prefer the King James Version, it is even more clearly stated as:

    Romans 4:17: (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were (The King James Version, Cambridge: 1769).

    For full article please gothrough this link http://www.hope-of-israel.org/hebrew.html

    #226089
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 23 2010,02:02)
    The topic of “preexistence” is especially applicable to the book of John; however, it is also applicable to the entire New Testament writings. There is no better example of the tragic breakdown in communicating Jewish writings to the Western world than has occurred with the concept of “preexistence”. The typical understanding of John's writings is the result of a failure (in fact, premeditated misrepresentation) to properly describe the Hebraic concept of this crucial issue. In particular, the common Christian concept of the preexistence of the Messiah has been divorced from the purely Hebraic mind set of the New Testament authors. Two of the many catastrophic outcomes of abandoning this Judaic context are the Trinity and the belief that Yeshua is God. Many reject the Trinity yet still cling to the belief that Yeshua is “God” because of confusion over the question of preexistence At the very least, the book of John has been grossly misinterpreted because of the failure to apply the proper context to it's interpretation.

    We need only reference a single Hebraic source to clarify the issue. The clarity of the reference leaves no room for misunderstanding, and removes the veil of deceit so long used by the church to conceal the truth. Following is a quote from Everyman's Talmud — The Major Teachings of the Rabbinic Sages, by Abraham Cohen. It should be realized this is the GENERAL, STANDARD HEBRAIC understanding of this issue. This quote is on page 347 and is taken from the section which discusses the Messiah in the chapter on the “Hereafter.”

    The belief was general that the sending of the Messiah was part of the Creator's plan at the inception of the Universe. “Seven things were created before the world was created: Torah, repentance, the Garden of Eden (i.e. Paradise), Gehinnom, the Throne of Glory, the Temple, and the name of the Messiah” (Pes. 54a). In a later work there is the observation: “From the beginning of the creation of the world king Messiah was born, for he entered the mind (of God) before even the world was created” (Pesikta Rab. 152b)

    So, here we see how the “preexistence” of the Messiah was understood by the Jewish mind. Remember that NEARLY ALL THE BIBLE'S WRITERS WERE JEWISH! The Messiah was “born” in the MIND (thought, motive, plan) of YEHOVAH God before creation but did NOT literally exist! The concept of a PHYSICAL literal preexistence is arrived at by most Christians only because they have unknowingly (or knowingly) abandoned the Jewish concept. We can't overemphasize this issue. It's importance is unequaled. IT MUST BE NOTED how the preexistence of the Messiah is defined in terms of his (the Messiah's) existence IN THE MIND OF YEHOVAH GOD the Father since before Creation. There is absolutely no literal preexistence assumed at all! Why? Because the Hebraic mind is so overwhelmed and awed by the magnificence, power, splendor, and infinite nature of YEHOVAH God that it assumes to “exist” whatever is in YEHOVAH's mind long before His “thought” actually physically manifests itself. The certainty of YEHOVAH's plan (thought) makes it as though the “thought” had already happened. YEHOVAH's intent or thought or motive or plan is so certain that it is said to “exist” despite its absence in the physical world! Obviously, since the “intent” or “plan” or “motive” of YEHOVAH God has always included the coming Messiah, the Hebraic mind assumes him (the Messiah) to have “existed” in the Mind of YEHOVAH since before creation! However, this “preexistence” was NOT considered literal or physical!


    Adam………..Good Post brother i totally agree with this portion of your post. People have no Idea of the Damage this Preexistence Doctrine does in the Minds of those who believe it how it separates us from Jesus in so many ways it totally distorts the work of GOD in mankind it is beyond a doubt the Spirit (intellect) of Antichrist that has infected all of Christendom. Martian has brought out much of what is written here also. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene

    #226096
     mikeboll64 
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    Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 23 2010,02:02)
    Brother Mike thinks that God is like human being who can not know his great-great-great…..great grand children.


    Hi Adam,

    What gives?  First, you acknowledge that the NT is loaded with preexistent scriptures – and have even mentioned Micah 5:2.

    But now, you're changing your mind again?

    First, I don't think God is like a human being and it was thoughtless and assinine for you to make that claim.

    My point, which like many others will go unanswered by you, Kerwin and Gene is this:

    Now let's change this “ring” to an abstract thing like “glory”.  Let's say somehow your wife KNEW that this great-great-great-great grandaughter would be an Olympic champion and gain much glory through her exploits.  Can you logically say that this future glory is right now IN YOUR WIFE'S PRESENCE?  Like she could store the glory in a bag and keep it sitting beside her on the couch for 78 years or something?

    And when your great-great-great-great grandaughter receives a perfect 10 score for her balance beam routine in the Olympics, could she then call your wife on the phone and say, “Grandma, could you now give me the glory I already had in your presence 78 years ago – because I won and now I'm ready to POSSESS it – even though I have already “POSSESSED” it for 78 years – even though I'm only 18 years old”?

    Please answer the bolded parts guys.  You have ALL ignored the question and opted for diversions of “the lady isn't God”.

    1.  Yes, I KNOW the lady isn't God.  But in that situation, could you rationally say you HAD, or POSSESSED something years and years before you even existed as a being?  YES OR NO?

    2.  Further, in that situation, could this person claim that they POSSESED something IN THE OTHER'S PRESENCE years and years before they existed as a being?  YES OR NO?

    Adam, the source you posted uses the wording of one scripture to eliminate the 40 or so that clearly teach Jesus DID pre-exist.  And I cannot ask the author of the article any questions about those 40 scriptures, and that's why I rebelled when Martian kept wanting to post pages and pages of internet info and expecting me to read each one and answer to it.  

    One thing is clear however, he likes the thought of non-preexistence for one main reason – because the teaching of preexistence has led many to the false “Jesus is God” doctrine.  I agree with his concern, but there are many scriptures that can be used to destroy the trinity without mangling the ones that clearly teach the pre-existence of Jesus.  Just like Gene and Martian, this guy wants Jesus to not have pre-existed for his own personal reasons – not due to any scriptural teaching.  

    So Adam, does the NT teach pre-existence or not?  Make up your mind so I know where you stand.

    peace and love,
    mike

    #226110
     gollamudi 
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    Yes brother Mike I still agree N.T talks about preexistence. But I am still open to somebody who can interpret such scriptures in the light of Jewish Monotheism. I don't agree with you on Micah 5:2 or Isa 11:1,10 on preexistence as it is purely Christian misinterpretation of Jewish scriptures.

    Thanks and peace to you
    Adam

    #226112
     terraricca 
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    Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 23 2010,20:47)
    Yes brother Mike I still agree N.T talks about preexistence. But I am still open to somebody who can interpret such scriptures in the light of Jewish Monotheism. I don't agree with you on Micah 5:2 or Isa 11:1,10 on preexistence as it is purely Christian misinterpretation of Jewish scriptures.

    Thanks and peace to you
    Adam


    Adam

    yea

    #226114
     Ed J 
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    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 23 2010,11:37)
    Adam, the source you posted uses the wording of one scripture to eliminate the 40 or so that clearly teach Jesus DID pre-exist.  And I cannot ask the author of the article any questions about those 40 scriptures, and that's why I rebelled when Martian kept wanting to post pages and pages of internet info and expecting me to read each one and answer to it.  

    peace and love,
    mike


    Hi Mike,

    That's why I don't read imported opinions!
    It is USELESS rederick meant to sway another!
    If Adam would only post his own opinions; if only?  

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #226118
     gollamudi 
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    Hi brother Ed J,
    You should be open to read other's opinions also. Well framed articles will be useful to us if you are open to read them. Whereas I am ready to give my clarification if any required please.

    Peace to you
    Adam

    #226168
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 23 2010,11:37)

    Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 23 2010,02:02)
    Brother Mike thinks that God is like human being who can not know his great-great-great…..great grand children.


    Hi Adam,

    What gives?  First, you acknowledge that the NT is loaded with preexistent scriptures – and have even mentioned Micah 5:2.

    But now, you're changing your mind again?

    First, I don't think God is like a human being and it was thoughtless and assinine for you to make that claim.

    My point, which like many others will go unanswered by you, Kerwin and Gene is this:

    Now let's change this “ring” to an abstract thing like “glory”.  Let's say somehow your wife KNEW that this great-great-great-great grandaughter would be an Olympic champion and gain much glory through her exploits.  Can you logically say that this future glory is right now IN YOUR WIFE'S PRESENCE?  Like she could store the glory in a bag and keep it sitting beside her on the couch for 78 years or something?

    And when your great-great-great-great grandaughter receives a perfect 10 score for her balance beam routine in the Olympics, could she then call your wife on the phone and say, “Grandma, could you now give me the glory I already had in your presence 78 years ago – because I won and now I'm ready to POSSESS it – even though I have already “POSSESSED” it for 78 years – even though I'm only 18 years old”?

    Please answer the bolded parts guys.  You have ALL ignored the question and opted for diversions of “the lady isn't God”.

    1.  Yes, I KNOW the lady isn't God.  But in that situation, could you rationally say you HAD, or POSSESSED something years and years before you even existed as a being?  YES OR NO?

    2.  Further, in that situation, could this person claim that they POSSESED something IN THE OTHER'S PRESENCE years and years before they existed as a being?  YES OR NO?

    Adam, the source you posted uses the wording of one scripture to eliminate the 40 or so that clearly teach Jesus DID pre-exist.  And I cannot ask the author of the article any questions about those 40 scriptures, and that's why I rebelled when Martian kept wanting to post pages and pages of internet info and expecting me to read each one and answer to it.  

    One thing is clear however, he likes the thought of non-preexistence for one main reason – because the teaching of preexistence has led many to the false “Jesus is God” doctrine.  I agree with his concern, but there are many scriptures that can be used to destroy the trinity without mangling the ones that clearly teach the pre-existence of Jesus.  Just like Gene and Martian, this guy wants Jesus to not have pre-existed for his own personal reasons – not due to any scriptural teaching.  

    So Adam, does the NT teach pre-existence or not?  Make up your mind so I know where you stand.

    peace and love,
    mike


    Mike……..Your argument is ignorant at best. Because if the person was GOD and Could bring it about then Yes that glory was assured that person from the very inset. Jesus understood (THAT GLORY) he had with the Father before he ever existed, that Glory was Present with GOD the FATHER before the world ever was created.

    What part of that is hard for you to understand , Is it that you think that GOD can't prepare Glory for his Childern as other Scripture also Show, what is you problem with understanding that? This might help you get it. “What is man that though art mindful of him for you have made him a little lower then the angles but (HAVE)(past tense) Crowned Him with GLORY and HONOR”. Then it goes on to say we do NOT (YET) see man Crowned with this GLORY and HONOR. So it is a preplanned GLORY and HONOR That exists in the Presence of GOD. This was the same with Jesus as with us.

    Why can't you simply even understand that mike.

    peace and love…………………………gene

    #226248
     mikeboll64 
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    Okay Gene and Adam and Kerwin.

    You guys slipped past this one because of the starting of the second pre-existence thread.  Let's forget John 17:5 for a second and see how you answer this “bread” point.

    John 6:41-42 NIV
    41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

    I have only one question for you guys:

    Is it abundantly clear from this passage that the Jews to whom Jesus was talking clearly understood him to be saying that he himself CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN?

    Yes or No guys………and be honest – no diversions okay?

    peace and love
    mike

    #226249
     mikeboll64 
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    Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 23 2010,13:47)
    I don't agree with you on Micah 5:2


    Hi Adam,

    Please explain to me what YOU think Micah 5:2 is saying then.

    Thanks,
    mike

    #226269
     Baker 
    Member
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    I am still having problems writing, so all I am going to say to Kerwin, Adam and Gene, your understanding is sin sch……….You don't make sense……..

    #226279
     kerwin 
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    Quote (Baker @ Nov. 24 2010,09:50)
    I am still having problems writing, so all I am going to say to Kerwin, Adam and Gene, your understanding is sin sch……….You don't make sense……..


    I hope you get well.

    #226289
     terraricca 
    Participant
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    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 23 2010,06:06)
    Pierre,

    The scripture which states why humans are tempted is James 1:14.  If an individual has a human nature then they have evil thoughts no matter their stage of development.  The only exception being is if they have no thoughts.   Accountability is another thing.


    kerwin

    Jas 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
    Jas 1:14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed.
    Jas 1:15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death

    this is definitely talking about adult people,right
    so children according to Gods law and Christ and Paul the parents should and have the responsibility to teach there children right from wrong,but is it enough? it all depend on there own knowledge is with God or from there parents,if from the word of Gos then it would be right from wrong according to scriptures right??

    and this would bring the person in direct contact with God ,the love for God would only depend on the one that learning right??

    as a child you could really not do much damage provided you are taken care of right??

    but as an adult you now have people listen to you and now with the twist the tongue someone can make big dommage,

    but you know what you doing ???

    that also depend and so on this is for God not for men.

    but you in your inner part you know what is not right because most likely God spirit told you,just like Cain was told.

    but it did not listen.

    and Satan and all the angels one third of them all,did they not sin knowing that it was against God there creator that they rebel??yes

    but for some reason they sew a loop hole in Gods work,this is what they taught.

    so anyone can sin angels,men but a time of redemption for children in some cases because what they say may not always be true.even today in the work force no one paid to much attention to teens ,in general.

    Pierre

    #226294
     kerwin 
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    Mike Boll,

    Is Jesus literally “bread” or is he speaking figuratively?

    If he is not then why would you think he was speaking literally when he said he came down from heaven?

    He is the bread that feeds those who hunger after righteousness and he came down from heaven because he was sent by God for that purpose.

    I am not talking a physical location but the spiritual location just as I am speaking of spiritual bread and spiritual hunger.

    #226298
     Ed J 
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    Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 23 2010,14:21)
    Hi brother Ed J,
    You should be open to read other's opinions also. Well framed articles will be useful to us if you are open to read them. Whereas I am ready to give my clarification if any required please.

    Peace to you
    Adam


    Hi Adam,

    I'm open to your opinions!
    What are they?

    Consider it a requirement then, please do clarify;
    What part of preexistence do you disagree with?

    God bless
    Ed J
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #226299
     kerwin 
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    Pierre,

    I believe James is speaking to adults but all human beings are subject to temptation whatever their age, provided they have any desires at all.

    I am positive even children are tempted by evil but because of their lack of mental and/or moral abilities due to development they are not held accountable for their actions. It is at the same time hypothetically possible that a child can believe that Jesus is Lord and thus be able to receive the Holy Spirit.

    Children are subject to their parents as they tend to have obedience/ punishment orientation or a selfish interest orientation and require teaching/training to develop out of those stages. Most, but sadly not all adults have thus developed past those stages and thus are capable of teaching their children.

    According to scripture even a child is known by whether their conduct is good and right. I have also heard and believe it is true that out of the mouth of a child wisdom can come. Still, children are regarded as ignorant in many cases as they have much to learn.

    The knowledge of God comes from God. Scripture and other sources are merely tools that he uses to teach us.

    #226303
     gollamudi 
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    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 24 2010,13:43)

    Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 23 2010,13:47)
    I don't agree with you on Micah 5:2


    Hi Adam,

    Please explain to me what YOU think Micah 5:2 is saying then.

    Thanks,
    mike


    Hi brother Mike,
    Here is the trustful translation of Micah 5:2;

    “And you, Bethlehem Ephratah – you should have been the lowest amongst the clans of Judah – from you [he] shall emerge for Me, to be a ruler over Israel; and his origin is from old, from ancient days.” (taken from Jewish Translation from the Hebrew).

    Micah 5:2 GNB:

    “Bethlehem Ephratha you are one of the smallest towns in Judah, but out of you I will bring a ruler for Isreal, whose family line goes back to ancient times.”

    So brother Mike where is preexistence of Messiah as you claim here in this verse?

    Christian translators wrongly interpreted Jewish scriptures to prove their ideas to fit Jesus into Jewish Messiah. Trinitarians claim Jesus' origins from everlasting whereas preexistence believers claim from the beginning of creation. This scripture talk about only Messiah's human origins from his forefathers like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who would be of ancient times when compared to future Messiah's arrival on the scene but not any mythical origins like in heaven as you claim here.

    Hope this will clarify your doubts on Micah 5:2

    Peace to you
    Adam

    #226304
     gollamudi 
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    Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 24 2010,18:24)

    Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 23 2010,14:21)
    Hi brother Ed J,
    You should be open to read other's opinions also. Well framed articles will be useful to us if you are open to read them. Whereas I am ready to give my clarification if any required please.

    Peace to you
    Adam


    Hi Adam,

    I'm open to your opinions!
    What are they?

    Consider it a requirement then, please do clarify;
    What part of preexistence do you disagree with?

    God bless
    Ed J
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    So you don't like my posts as you seem to ignore them.
    So sad..
    Adam

    #226321
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 24 2010,13:42)
    Okay Gene and Adam and Kerwin.

    You guys slipped past this one because of the starting of the second pre-existence thread.  Let's forget John 17:5 for a second and see how you answer this “bread” point.


    Mike………Actually it is you who slips past what is being said , an do it by not answering what we post and change subject matter to something else. Very sneaky and tricky if you ask me, this is how you get around responding to our posts. That is being dishonest Mike rather you realize it or not. IMO

    So seeing i ask you first does the Glory GOD has preplanned for Man (EXIST) in the Presents of GOD or NOT. Try not to change the subject this time.

    As you say, a simple, Yes or No will suffice.

    peace and love…………………………………….gene

    #226323
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 24 2010,19:35)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 24 2010,13:43)

    Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 23 2010,13:47)
    I don't agree with you on Micah 5:2


    Hi Adam,

    Please explain to me what YOU think Micah 5:2 is saying then.

    Thanks,
    mike


    Hi brother Mike,
    Here is the trustful translation of Micah 5:2;

    “And you, Bethlehem Ephratah – you should have been the lowest amongst the clans of Judah – from you [he] shall emerge for Me, to be a ruler over Israel; and his origin is from old, from ancient days.” (taken from Jewish Translation from the Hebrew).

    Micah 5:2 GNB:

    “Bethlehem Ephratha you are one of the smallest towns in Judah, but out of you I will bring a ruler for Isreal, whose family line goes back to ancient times.”

    So brother Mike where is preexistence of Messiah as you claim here in this verse?

    Christian translators wrongly interpreted Jewish scriptures to prove their ideas to fit Jesus into Jewish Messiah. Trinitarians claim Jesus' origins from everlasting whereas preexistence believers claim from the beginning of creation. This scripture talk about only Messiah's human origins from his forefathers like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who would be of ancient times when compared to future Messiah's arrival on the scene but not any mythical origins like in heaven as you claim here.

    Hope this will clarify your doubts on Micah 5:2

    Peace to you
    Adam


    Adam………..Good post brother and accurate also. People do not realize how our text have be alter over time and influenced by Trinitarian and Preexistence translators over time. Their overall work is a Work of SEPARATION of JESUS from our EXACT identity. This is the work of Antichrist and they do not even realize it.IMO

    peace and love…………….gene

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