Preexistence (Part 2)

This topic contains 8,160 replies, has 49 voices, and was last updated by  t8 1 month, 2 weeks ago.

  • Author
    Posts
  • #225891
     kerwin 
    Participant
    • Topics started 144
    • Total replies 17,364

    Pierre,

    You ask where scripture states the divine righteousness of God is part of his nature?

    As to the word “nature” the definition is “A spontaneous attitude”.

    As to the word “divine” the definition is “of, relating to, or proceeding directly from God or a god”.

    I thus point out that the words divine nature as defined above can mean righteous attitude of God.

    As to scripture Christians are explicitly commanded to wear the divine righteous nature of God in Ephesians 4:24 and Galatians 5:16 makes it clear the command is also stated as walk by the Spirit.

    You state that Jesus having an evil nature is not scripture and yet you claim to believe he was tempted as we are.  You should consider what James states about temptation and then remove the contradiction from your doctrine.

    James 1:14(NIV) reads:

    Quote

    but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.

    It follows that Jesus knew what he was speaking of when he stated “no one but God is good”.

    #225919
     mikeboll64 
    Participant
    • Topics started 80
    • Total replies 25,170

    Quote (t8 @ Nov. 21 2010,14:27)
    John 8:44 for example says 'THE Devil' (identifier) and 'a murderer' (qualifier/nature/characteristic). Saying a murder is not identifying the murderer. That has already been done where is says THE Devil.


    Hi t8,

    Yet it doesn't say in English, “THE Devil was murderer” does it?  No, because for us to readily understand it in English, the indefinite must be added before “murderer”.

    And this is what I'm saying.  If they want to NOT add the indefinite in John 1:1, then they should follow suit throughout the Bible.  But if they add the indefinite EVERY OTHER time it is needed for English clarity, then why not also in John 1:1?

    Just like we wouldn't in English say, “THE Devil is murderer”, we also wouldn't say, “THE Word is god”.  Because both of them give the connotation that the qualifyer is a specific thing or person with that title.  We should know that the Devil was A murderer, not THE Murderer, so we add the “A”.  Likewise, we should know that the Word was A god, not THE God, so we should add the “A”.

    How about “peter”?  It means “rock”.  In Greek, they might have said, “Pick up and throw rock”.  But we know the speaker meant “A rock”, not “Peter”.

    We can go round and round about this, but the bottom line is this:  If they add the “A” for English clarity in EVERY OTHER instance, they should also add it in John 1:1, like the NWT does.

    t8, do you have a problem with Jesus being “a god”?  Because he most definitely is, as Isaiah 9:6 attests to.  “Mighty god” there is not a qualifyer, but an identifying title by which Jesus will be called.  Just like Wonderful Counselor and Everlasting Father and Prince of Peace, right?  These are all identifying titles, not qualifyers.

    peace and love,
    mike

    #225920
     mikeboll64 
    Participant
    • Topics started 80
    • Total replies 25,170

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 21 2010,13:27)
    It is not illogical to use words different than Mike Boll has been taught is appropriate.


    That's a cheap shot Kerwin. Okay, so you think it is logical to say you HAD things before you even existed. How about the “in your presence” part?

    Do you also consider it logical for someone who doesn't yet exist to be “in the presence” of someone else?

    mike

    #225922
     mikeboll64 
    Participant
    • Topics started 80
    • Total replies 25,170

    Quote (t8 @ Nov. 21 2010,14:32)
    The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.


    Hi t8,

    Every bit of this info could also be applied to “murderer” in John 8:44. Yet every English translation adds the “A” to make the reading clear to us. So why not in John 1:1?

    mike

    #225923
     GeneBalthrop 
    Participant
    • Topics started 42
    • Total replies 16,529

    Mike………..It does not say in Jesus' presents does or that he was even there , it say in GOD presents Jesus had this glory . Jesus existed (IN) the BOSOM or (Heart) of the Father he was not really there as a Living being until he was born on earth and dies and resurrected to the Glory that GOD had in the First reserved for HIM as the First man to achieve what God had planned for all man kind all along. You force the text to a conclusion it does not say (specifically), If it was so clear there would be no argument about it , you ought to at least understand that. IMO

    peace and love………………………………gene

    #225928
     mikeboll64 
    Participant
    • Topics started 80
    • Total replies 25,170

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 22 2010,03:36)
    Mike………..It does not say in Jesus' presents does or that he was even there , it say in GOD presents Jesus had this glory .


    Hi Gene,

    Let's see what it really DOES say:

    John 17:5 NRSV
    So now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had in your presence before the world existed.

    It says the word “I”.  What does “I” mean Gene?  

    Then it says this “I” “HAD” glory.  Can someone who doesn't yet exist be an “I”?  Can someone who doesn't yet exist “HAVE” glory?  

    It says that this “I” “HAD” “GLORY”.  Can someone who doesn't even exist “HAVE GLORY”?  For what?  If he didn't exist, then he hadn't done anything yet to receive glory, nor does he have any use for it.  

    It says this “I” “HAD” “GLORY” “IN YOUR PRESENCE”.  Can someone who doesn't yet exist be said to be “IN THE PRESENCE” of another?

    These are the simple words used in the scripture Gene.  And we all have the choice to take these words to mean a person was saying he had glory in the presence of God before the world was created.  

    OR………we can illogically twist their meaning to say a person's non-existent thought of himself somehow had glory.

    Gene, aren't you the one who argues tirelessly about a person's words being that person?  Well, if a person's words are themselves, then surely a person's THOUGHTS are themselves, right?  So if Jesus was just “a thought in God's head” at this time, then he was really God Himself, right?  And how can God Himself have glory in His OWN presence?  ???

    mike

    #225933
     terraricca 
    Participant
    • Topics started 67
    • Total replies 28,224

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 22 2010,02:14)
    Pierre,

    You ask where scripture states the divine righteousness of God is part of his nature?

    As to the word “nature” the definition is “A spontaneous attitude”.

    As to the word “divine” the definition is “of, relating to, or proceeding directly from God or a god”.

    I thus point out that the words divine nature as defined above can mean righteous attitude of God.

    As to scripture Christians are explicitly commanded to wear the divine righteous nature of God in Ephesians 4:24 and Galatians 5:16 makes it clear the command is also stated as walk by the Spirit.

    You state that Jesus having an evil nature is not scripture and yet you claim to believe he was tempted as we are.  You should consider what James states about temptation and then remove the contradiction from your doctrine.

    James 1:14(NIV) reads:

    Quote

    but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.

    It follows that Jesus knew what he was speaking of when he stated “no one but God is good”.


    Kerwin

    i still stand to what i have said;

    Dt 6:18 Do what is right and good in the LORD'S sight, so that it may go well with you and you may go in and take over the good land that the LORD promised on oath to your forefathers,

    Dt 12:28 Be careful to obey all these regulations I am giving you, so that it may always go well with you and your children after you, because you will be doing what is good and right in the eyes of the LORD your God.

    Jos 23:14 “Now I am about to go the way of all the earth. You know with all your heart and soul that not one of all the good promises the LORD your God gave you has failed. Every promise has been fulfilled; not one has failed.
    Jos 23:15 But just as every good promise of the LORD your God has come true, so the LORD will bring on you all the evil he has threatened, until he has destroyed you from this good land he has given you.

    yes scriptures says that men can and do good and be good if it is done in God way.

    so again your interpretation is not understanding of God s scriptures but Kerwin tradition of men

    even now i doubt that you understand what it means.

    Pierre

    #225966
     GeneBalthrop 
    Participant
    • Topics started 42
    • Total replies 16,529

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 22 2010,04:32)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 22 2010,03:36)
    Mike………..It does not say in Jesus' presents does or that he was even there , it say in GOD presents Jesus had this glory .


    Hi Gene,

    Let's see what it really DOES say:

    John 17:5 NRSV
    So now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had in your presence before the world existed.

    It says the word “I”.  What does “I” mean Gene?  

    Then it says this “I” “HAD” glory.  Can someone who doesn't yet exist be an “I”?  Can someone who doesn't yet exist “HAVE” glory?  

    It says that this “I” “HAD” “GLORY”.  Can someone who doesn't even exist “HAVE GLORY”?  For what?  If he didn't exist, then he hadn't done anything yet to receive glory, nor does he have any use for it.  

    It says this “I” “HAD” “GLORY” “IN YOUR PRESENCE”.  Can someone who doesn't yet exist be said to be “IN THE PRESENCE” of another?

    These are the simple words used in the scripture Gene.  And we all have the choice to take these words to mean a person was saying he had glory in the presence of God before the world was created.  

    OR………we can illogically twist their meaning to say a person's non-existent thought of himself somehow had glory.

    Gene, aren't you the one who argues tirelessly about a person's words being that person?  Well, if a person's words are themselves, then surely a person's THOUGHTS are themselves, right?  So if Jesus was just “a thought in God's head” at this time, then he was really God Himself, right?  And how can God Himself have glory in His OWN presence?  ???

    mike


    Mike ……..why don't you read some commentary on that verse, No where doe it say Jesus was Present there at any time , He simply said the Glory was Present with GOD , Before he even existed, Jesus was talking to God about that Glory given Him in the beginning and it (the Glory) was present in the plan and will of God. He had that Glory before he ever existed God brought Him forth at the right time and brought him to that Glory after his resurrection from the dead, he never had that Glory until he achieved it. IMO

    peace and love…………………………….gene

    #225982
     kerwin 
    Participant
    • Topics started 144
    • Total replies 17,364

    Mike Boll,

    I listened to your argument and you seemed to be stating I was not using proper English in my example. You could very well be correct as I have no idea what proper English is and I also have a tendency to pick up language idioms from what I hear and read.

    I use Microsoft Word to correct both my English spell and sentence structure and it did not find anything wrong with my example. On the other hand it often finds errors in scripture as I believe the translators at times keep the sentence structure of the original language.

    It is Jesus’ glory and not Jesus which John 17:5 states that exists in God’s presence in the beginning just as in my example it is my present and not me that is in my mother’s presence before I am born.

    #225985
     kerwin 
    Participant
    • Topics started 144
    • Total replies 17,364

    Pierre,

    I am not stating that human’s cannot do good. I am stating that the nature of human beings is evil. Jesus stated that very point in one of his teachings on praying with faith.

    Matthew 7:11(NIV) reads:

    Quote

    If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

    As I already pointed out, in order to be tempted as Jesus was he had to have evil desires according to what God spoke through James. Even though Jesus had the same evil desires we have he always resisted the devil and the devil always fled because Jesus trusted in God to keep him pure. He teaches us through the Holy Spirit how to do that as well.

    #225986
     mikeboll64 
    Participant
    • Topics started 80
    • Total replies 25,170

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 22 2010,09:51)
    It is Jesus’ glory and not Jesus which John 17:5 states that exists in God’s presence in the beginning just as in my example it is my present and not me that is in my mother’s presence before I am born.


    Listen to you guys.  Jesus clearly says “I HAD” glory “IN YOUR PRESENCE”.

    What does the “I HAD” part mean guys?

    Kerwin, what you're saying in your example is that YOU HAD a present that was with your mom before you were born.  It might have been a present she would eventually give to you, but YOU HAD nothing before there was a YOU to have it.

    And besides, now you're changing it to say that “the present I HAD in your presence” really means “the present itself was in your presence”.  Wouldn't you then say, “Give me the present THAT WAS in your presence”?  You wouldn't use “I HAD” at all in a sentence talking about a present that was in your mom's presence before you were born, would you?

    Maybe I'm just not seeing it.  Post the sentence start to finish including the word “I HAD” but meaning only the present alone was in you mom's presence before you were born.

    The best I can come up with is this:

    Give me the present that has been waiting in your presence for me since before I was born.

    Is that what you mean Kerwin?  Because if it is, that's not even close to the wording of the scripture.  The “I HAD” must become a “THAT HAS BEEN”, and we must also add the words “waiting for me”.

    You try……..maybe I'll understand when I see how YOU word it.

    peace and love,
    mike

    #225987
     GeneBalthrop 
    Participant
    • Topics started 42
    • Total replies 16,529

    Mike………..That simply means it was His before he ever was born, He (HAD) It in the Plan and will of God. Trying to force the text is one of your greatest problems here, it is the same problem all Preexistences have which they recieved from the Trinitarians teachings. You need to let it go and maybe God will allow you to see clearly the error of you beliefs. Grabbing Straw and forcing them into your beliefs hardly makes for truth, and only serves to further blind you and others. IMO

    peace and love………………………………gene

    #225989
     GeneBalthrop 
    Participant
    • Topics started 42
    • Total replies 16,529

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 22 2010,09:51)
    It is Jesus’ glory and not Jesus which John 17:5 states that exists in God’s presence in the beginning just as in my example it is my present and not me that is in my mother’s presence before I am born.


    Kerwin …………. You have presented it correctly brother. Mike is so egger to force his conclusion he can't even realize it. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene

    #225996
     kerwin 
    Participant
    • Topics started 144
    • Total replies 17,364

    Mike Boll,

    The original purpose of a baby shower was to give a child gifts before the child is born. They are the child’s gifts even though it is possible the child will not live to personally receive them. God has the advantage over human beings that he can give someone a gift before they exist with certain knowledge they will receive that gift. Any gift is given in the presence of the giver.

    #226000
     mikeboll64 
    Participant
    • Topics started 80
    • Total replies 25,170

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 22 2010,10:31)
    Mike………..That simply means it was His before he ever was born, He (HAD) It in the Plan and will of God. Trying to force the text is one of your greatest problems here,


    Really Gene?  Oh no you dit'ent! :D

    Did you REALLY just FORCE the text by saying a non-existent thought in someone's head POSSESSED something as “his own” – and then follow up that FORCED meaning which doesn't even fit into the words with an accusation about ME forcing the text?!?  :D

    Too funny man!  :laugh:

    peace and love,
    mike

    #226003
     terraricca 
    Participant
    • Topics started 67
    • Total replies 28,224

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 22 2010,17:07)
    Pierre,

    I am not stating that human’s cannot do good.  I am stating that the nature of human beings is evil.  Jesus stated that very point in one of his teachings on praying with faith.

    Matthew 7:11(NIV) reads:

    Quote

    If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

    As I already pointed out, in order to be tempted as Jesus was he had to have evil desires according to what God spoke through James.  Even though Jesus had the same evil desires we have he always resisted the devil and the devil always fled because Jesus trusted in God to keep him pure.  He teaches us through the Holy Spirit how to do that as well.


    Kerwin

    you can shake hands with Gene;

    Mt 7:4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
    Mt 7:5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
    Mt 7:6 “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

    Ask, Seek, Knock

    7:7-11 pp—;Lk 11:9-13

    Mt 7:7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
    Mt 7:8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
    Mt 7:9 “Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone?
    Mt 7:10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake?
    Mt 7:11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

    Christ is talking to the pharisees and the doctors of the law,

    you have to grasp the meaning of what is true,not your own opinion of scriptures.

    pierre

    #226005
     mikeboll64 
    Participant
    • Topics started 80
    • Total replies 25,170

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 22 2010,11:31)
    They are the child’s gifts even though it is possible the child will not live to personally receive them.


    Hi Kerwin,  

    I disagree.  And I think you would also 100 times out of 100 if we used the same words in secular situations.  The gifts in your scenario are bought for a living breathing fetus, so it is already a life.

    Let's say your wife has a ring that she wants to give to your great-great-great-great grandaughter who won't be born for another 60 years.  

    1.  Does this non-existent “thought” in your wife's head actually POSSESS this ring at this time?

    2.  In 78 years from now, can this great-great-great-great grandaughter say, “Give me the ring I HAD IN YOUR PRESENCE 78 YEARS AGO, because I'm 18 and I'm getting married”?  

    You must answer YES to #1 in order to answer YES to #2 Kerwin.  Do you understand that?  You have to be able to say that a non-existent thought can OWN a POSSESSION with a straight face in order for this to work into #2.

    Now let's change this “ring” to an abstract thing like “glory”.  Let's say somehow your wife KNEW that this great-great-great-great grandaughter would be an Olympic champion and gain much glory through her exploits.  Can you logically say that this future glory is right now IN YOUR WIFE'S PRESENCE?  Like she could store the glory in a bag and keep it sitting beside her on the couch for 78 years or something.

    And when your great-great-great-great grandaughter receives a perfect 10 score for her balance beam routine in the Olympics, could she then call your wife on the phone and say, “Grandma, could you now give me the glory I already had in your presence 78 years ago – because I won and now I'm ready to POSSESS it – even though I have already “POSSESSED” it for 78 years – even though I'm only 18 years old”?

    I'll tell you what Kerwin.  If you and Gene think your understanding of John 17:5 is so logical, then it should be nothing for you to easily come up with a logically worded example in which the same basic words would mean the same basic thing in an everyday life situation.

    Like, give me an example where someone has been “holding on to” someone else's glory for a while – waiting for the proper moment to give that glory to them.  And don't foget, when that proper time comes, the recipient must ask for the glory they ALREADY HAD in the presence of that person a long time ago.

    Can you do it?

    mike

    #226024
     terraricca 
    Participant
    • Topics started 67
    • Total replies 28,224

    Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 22 2010,19:04)

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 22 2010,17:07)
    Pierre,

    I am not stating that human’s cannot do good.  I am stating that the nature of human beings is evil.  Jesus stated that very point in one of his teachings on praying with faith.

    Matthew 7:11(NIV) reads:

    Quote

    If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

    As I already pointed out, in order to be tempted as Jesus was he had to have evil desires according to what God spoke through James.  Even though Jesus had the same evil desires we have he always resisted the devil and the devil always fled because Jesus trusted in God to keep him pure.  He teaches us through the Holy Spirit how to do that as well.


    Kerwin

    you can shake hands with Gene;

    Mt 7:4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
    Mt 7:5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
    Mt 7:6 “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

    Ask, Seek, Knock

    7:7-11 pp—;Lk 11:9-13

    Mt 7:7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
    Mt 7:8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
    Mt 7:9 “Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone?
    Mt 7:10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake?
    Mt 7:11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

    Christ is talking to the pharisees and the doctors of the law,

    you have to grasp the meaning of what is true,not your own opinion of scriptures.

    pierre


    Kerwin

    how is it that a person has evil toughts?
    wen he is a baby??
    wen he is teen??

    wen he is adult ??

    are those enbeded in him ??

    is it something you persue and obtain??

    WERE IS THAT SCRIPTURE YOU SAY IN JAMES??

    Pierre

    #226035
     kerwin 
    Participant
    • Topics started 144
    • Total replies 17,364

    Pierre,

    The scripture which states why humans are tempted is James 1:14. If an individual has a human nature then they have evil thoughts no matter their stage of development. The only exception being is if they have no thoughts. Accountability is another thing.

    #226036
     kerwin 
    Participant
    • Topics started 144
    • Total replies 17,364

    Mike Boll,

    You seem to forget that God unlike human beings are all knowing so while a woman does not know which great-great-great-great granddaughter yet non-conceived she has willed her ring to or even if she will have one God does.  He can even specify the child’s name and her ancestors clear back to the woman as well as the exact times and location of their births. That is why scripture states:

    Jeremiah 1:5(NIV) reads:

    Quote

    “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

    And also:

    Ephesians 1:4(NIV) reads:

    Quote

    For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

Viewing 20 posts - 21 through 40 (of 8,161 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2018 Heaven Net

or

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

or

Create Account