October 30, 2018 at 11:21 pm #835245
.You: No. Those alive in the Spirit now will not die when the Master returns.
Me: They will not die in mind and holy spirit, but their human bodies, spirits, and hearts will. They will receive new hearts and bodies.
Ezk 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
1 Cor 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain (seed), it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain (seed) 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
Me: We die of our mortal bodies and receive new bodies of this image. It will be a body of the seed of the holy spirit with eternal life and not of the spirit of the flesh with temporal life.October 31, 2018 at 6:44 am #835250
Yes the pledge is the initial investment of God in the Spirit in our earthly soil.
But those who ask, seek and knock, who obey the advice of 2 Peter 1 can become sons of God now.
But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become children of God Jn 1.12
If we live by the Spirit, Let us also walk in the Spirit. Gal 5.25
For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God .Rom 8.14October 31, 2018 at 9:11 am #835255
You are MISSING a key point which leads you to a false doctrine, which your doctrine itself ignores clear scripture.
2 Corinthians 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth😉 such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth😉 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. 6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me. 7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
What is said here is that there is a man who received “unspeakable words” upon entering in the 3rd heaven during a vision/revelation and Paul is uncertain that the vision was received in the body or outside of the body. Some believe that Paul is speaking of himself as he says, “lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations.” 14 years ago would have been the time that Paul had already been anointed an apostle, as he is believed to have spoken to the Corinthians some 16 years or so after his conversion. Paul said I shall tell the truth but now I forbear, as he did not want to be exalted above measure through the abundance of revelation that he had received.
TC, one thing that this passage for certain does not say is that some man went to paradise receiving eternal life, or anything else of the sort, he received “unspeakable words” and such was received through a vision/revelation. During the vision did God literally transport the man’s spirit into heaven to hear it, or did he hear it on earth within the body, that is what Paul did not know, but God knew.
WHAT IS NOT SAID is anything about Pentecost, or someone going to stay in paradise. What is said that this person RECEIVED “unspeakable words” and Paul did not know if the person received it in his vision in the body or out of the body.November 1, 2018 at 12:35 am #835263
You: TC, one thing that this passage for certain does not say is that some man went to paradise receiving eternal life, or anything else of the sort, he received “unspeakable words” and such was received through a vision/revelation. During the vision did God literally transport the man’s spirit into heaven to hear it, or did he hear it on earth within the body, that is what Paul did not know, but God knew. WHAT IS NOT SAID is anything about Pentecost, or someone going to stay in paradise. What is said that this person RECEIVED “unspeakable words” and Paul did not know if the person received it in his vision in the body or out of the body.
Me: Nothing about Pentecost here but elsewhere about where I have shown you above. Paradise is specifically listed in Luke 23:43 and Rev 2:7. I have shown you many verses how Pentecost ties in, you just don’t understand.
Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Me: This is how you should learn God’s word, but you seem to have tunnel vision with no lateral vision.
Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
Me: This is how God hides the truth from them he does not wish to show it to.November 1, 2018 at 12:45 am #835264
1 Cor 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
Me: Paul is speaking about his vision. A vision is an apparition that represents reality. The whole point I want to make here, and which you do not seem to comprehend, is that you can be with the Lord in spirit without a body or in spirit with body. So when are we first with the Lord, are we with a body or with a body and spirit? This is what we are addressing. All the other stuff about humility is fine and good and is what the passage in 1 Cor 12:1-4 is mainly addressing. But we are addressing only a small part of this passage that fits in with the overall scope of the resurrection of the spirit. So don’t be a scatter brain.
2 Cor 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:…8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be “present” with the Lord.
Me: Paul desires to be absent from his fleshly body and present with the Lord in his mind and spirit in the then present. We acquire our spirit bodies at the first resurrection. We are with the Lord when we die in our bodies. If we are alive when he comes, we must die first. Notice “we” in verse 8 doesn’t consider the body.
It is as simple as that. All this about him speaking in the third person about himself seems to be true. He thus presents humility and glorifies the Lord instead. But that is not the point we are addressing. The point: Is there a resurrection of the spirit without the body before Christ returns? The answer is in the affirmative as I have shown by the scriptures above.November 1, 2018 at 12:52 am #835265
For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God .Rom 8.14
Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
We are begotten of the holy spirit in our minds and grow. We cannot sin there. in our spirit minds.
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Me: When we die, our bodies and our human spirits die. What is left is the holy spirit with the heart of Christ in our minds, now purely sons of God. Our bodies come later at the first resurrection. This is when all of our being is swallow up into life.November 1, 2018 at 4:09 am #835268
lol, I have no idea how those faces got into my last post!
You are not finding hidden truth in scripture when you take a line out of context and have it mean something that it does not mean, it is especially not the truth when it so greatly CONTRADICTS other passages. TC people are BLIND to the truth, when they are blind they create superstitions, when they are blind they invent their own understanding to a verse or verses, thinking that they are wise when they are but fools, then they call it “hidden truth”.
Truth is hidden from the BLIND from the ignorant, from fools, otherwise it is plainly seen. The problem often times is that people have been told lies, they have been given snip-its of passages out of context and told that it means something it does not, and they must come out of false doctrine.
You gave 2 Corinthians 12 and then said,
“a. Man caught up into heaven with a body
b. Man caught up into heaven without a body.
A man caught up into heaven without a body occurs after Pentecost after death. Death (Heb 9:27) occurs for some before Christ returns and for some when Christ returns (those alive at that time).”
ME: I say that 2 Corinthians 12 has nothing to do with a man going to be in paradise, but a man having a vision where he receives “unspeakable words”.
YOU Respond by saying:Nothing about Pentecost here but elsewhere about where I have shown you above.
You are not making sense. Are you NOW saying that 2 Corinthians 12 does not mean what you thought it meant?
You: Please reconcile 1 Thes 4:16 and 1 Cor 15:52 with 2 Cor 12:1-4 and 2 Cor 5:1-4, You have not done this.”
Me: Is your problem in the fact I gave 1 Corinthians 12:1-7 and not just 1-4, and now the passage doesn’t fit into your doctrine? What are you trying to say talking about line upon line? We can take one line from the bible and have it mean whatever we want, and find another line out of context and make it fit with the other we took out of context, you didn’t even do that you took 4 lines and tried to make it fit with your doctrine. Most are blind to what the NT says because they do not apply the OT to it, as did the so called “early church fathers”, instead they applied their love for Greek beliefs and philosophies. I dispute what people say often because they ignore the surrounding text of the chapter, they ignore what the chapter is saying and say they are pulling out hidden truth. They miss the entire message of the author, they miss the truth of the word of God, because they are searching for hidden meanings, and what they often create is just an absolute distraction from the truth that is actually being told.
Nothing needs to be reconciled with the passages you gave.
1 Corinthians 15:52:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
The below passage has nothing to do with Christ’s return when those that are dead wake to eternal life.
2 Cor 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
2 Cor 5:For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
I have spoken about 2 Corinthians 5 extensively. The verses are clear if you apply Paul’s words with Paul’s words. Romans 7 in particular makes it clear. Paul despised his own mortal body, he desired to have an immortal body. He knew that if he died and his body decayed (dissolved) he would rise from the dead receiving a heavenly eternal body becoming a heavenly man. He wanted to be CLOTHED with an immortal BODY. He felt naked and ashamed in his mortal body, he knew that the law was spiritual but he was carnal sold in sin. He saw himself as a wretched man as that which he knew was good he could not do. He was repentant and saw the law as good and desired to follow it perfectly, but he knew he was unable until he was delivered from a body of death and received a BODY of life that could no longer tempt him. Paul does not feel at home in his mortal body, he is not comfortable in it he loathes it, if he felt comfortable he would be separated from God enjoying his sins feeling right at home in his body. The BODY in which Paul speaks of in 2 Corinthians 5 is a MORTAL body that he is confident will be swallowed up into life. Knowing Paul’s words throughout his writings we know that Paul never speaks of needing to be without a body in order to be present with the lord, he desires to be CLOTHED with an immortal BODY, one that is free from sin and temptation that does not in away separate him from God’s will. One day he will be absent from a mortal body, as that body will be swallowed up into life. One mortal body made into an immortal body, not having NO BODY at all.
Paul goes onto speak of the judgment seat of Christ in 2 Corinthians 5, of which Daniel speaks of,
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Paul had faith that if he died and his body decayed he would WAKE from the DEAD unto eternal life with an immortal BODY, and he tells us directly from 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thess 4 that this occurs at Christ’s return when the trumpet sounds.November 1, 2018 at 6:13 am #835269
You do not own truth.
And your reliance on personal interpretation is dangerous.
Scripture interprets scripture. 2 Cor 13.1November 1, 2018 at 6:18 am #835270
No man hates his own body but he loves it and takes care of it.
Neither did Paul but he certainly preferred to be rid of it to be clothed from above.November 1, 2018 at 6:22 am #835271
Ot would be unwise to claim we are already reborn in our minds.
If so the Spirit in Paul would not command that we be transformed in our minds.November 2, 2018 at 4:06 am #835279
Good Morning Nick,
You said, “No man hates his own body but he loves it and takes care of it.
Neither did Paul but he certainly preferred to be rid of it to be clothed from above.”
I NEVER used the word hate, I quoted Paul.
Man loves life sometimes, and sometimes he hates life because it is filled with pain and suffering. Man loves life for what he experiences in his body and he hates life likewise for the same reason. I love life when I can be in the Redwood forest hiking with my family enjoying God’s Creation, smelling the earth, seeing the earth. I also enjoy and am thankful for the picnic lunch that I eat and how it tastes and makes by body feel. I also enjoy the laughter I share with my family as we get silly hiking down the trail. I don’t like life so much like yesterday when I came to work to find out one of the families we serve woke up to find their 10 month old dead. Such makes me desire the day where there is no more death and the pain and suffering that goes along with it.
Nick, I SPOKE TRUTH, I spoke what PAUL SAID. “The law is spiritual but I am CARNAL sold under sin.” “For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.” “O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?”
NICK, we are talking about SIN in the body, Paul wasn’t walking around sinning all the time, he was in fact doing many things that was pleasing to God. But he recognized that he did miss the mark at times and he didn’t want to feel shame anymore, he wanted the body that would no longer tempt him, this doesn’t mean that he did not enjoy or wasn’t thankful for the good things he received from God with his body.
Stick to the subject Nick.
What you have done in your response is change the subject and then apply that change to what I said as if I am in error. You are so crafty Nick, and thankfully I am not blind to your cunning devices.November 2, 2018 at 4:38 am #835280
You confuse SINFUL ACTIONS with their source, SIN IN THE FLESH.
Paul was led by the Spirit of God and did not sin in the eyes of God.
But in his flesh dwelt sin, and he knew death would set him free.
Recognise the domain of darkness and be a little wiser.November 2, 2018 at 5:07 am #835281
Nick.. ..what Jodi is saying is right brother. We are all waiting for “the resurection, that will witness the ” REDEMPTION OF OUR “BODIES”. THE NEW BODIES WE RECIEVE AT THE RESURECTION. But those bodies the are from the same seed , but regenerated, just as a seed of grain, or wheat, or corn, the seed regenerates new exact same bodies they came from, NEW BODIES WITH THE SAME DNA, but we will be granted to eat from the “tree of life” and live for ever. IT’S not a matter of a different body, but what is sustaining it., (.the tree of life) so it never dies, it can not die,because of what is sustaining it.
If you understood GENESIS, you should have understood that. A seed alway produces after it’s own “kind” , it was created that way by GOD, so it not the kind, we need to be concerned with but what sustains us . Is it (The tree of life) that is, IN THE “MIDST OF THE GARDEN” of God, or not?
What scripture say mankind is changed to a different ‘kind”. Scripture say as we have born the ‘image’ of the earthly we shall also bear the image of the heavenly, but I see no change of the “KIND” mentioned there do you?
Peace and love to you and yours. …….geneNovember 2, 2018 at 7:22 am #835282
The old body IS the seed.
The new body IS the plant that ensues.
The Seed IS NOT the plant that grows from it.November 2, 2018 at 8:07 am #835283
Take responsibility for your deficient teachings.
Indeed you should be embarrassed when they are found to not align with all the scriptures.November 2, 2018 at 12:02 pm #835284
Nick, where did I say the new body was the seed. No the seed is within the old body, it is it’s life source, just as a grain of wheat or corn’s life source is the seed. It will never create a different kind of plant. Neither will the life source in us produce a different kind of body. The seed produces the same “kind” of body, but if it has the tree of life, given to it, it can live forever.
Nick why do you keep wanting a completely different “KIND” OF BODY, why not a ” PERFECTED” human body. Do you think God made a mistake with the bodies he has given us?
Peace and love to you and yours. ………geneNovember 2, 2018 at 12:30 pm #835285
If you are still dependant on the life source you were born with then you future is very dim.
It will leave you at your death, just as the human spirit of Jesus left him on Calvary.
Unless you have been reborn from above all the rest is futile hot air.November 2, 2018 at 2:16 pm #835286
Would you limit the work of my God to what you have seen?
How small is your god?November 3, 2018 at 7:14 am #835296
For now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which indwells me.
But if I am doing the very thing I do not wish, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
For we know that the law is spiritual but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.November 3, 2018 at 11:39 am #835299
NICK…..No , but I think GOD IS PLEASED WITH WHAT HE HAS ALREADY MADE, NO NEED TO CHANGE MANKIND INTO A Completely, DIFFERENT CREATURE. As you think. I would say it is you who are limiting God, not me brother. You see I believe, my God is quiet able to perfect his human creation, and our example is Jesus. You on the other hand believe he must change man to another type of creature. I have tons of scripture back up, you have none, just your own speculations.
Peace and love to you and yours. …….gene
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