JOHN 1:1

This topic contains 2,699 replies, has 55 voices, and was last updated by  NickHassan 3 years ago.

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  • #53301
     Not3in1 
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    Ha – well, I tried to “bold” the part I wanted to stress. So much for getting the buttons down. At any rate, LEVI WAS STILL IN THE BODY OF HIS FATHER.

    How was he in the body of his Father? How was the Word “with” God?

    #53302
     Not3in1 
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    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2007,17:56)
    The problem you have is there is nothing in these scriptures that indicate he “”would be”, it is very plain that he “was and is”!


    WJ,
    You say that scripture does not indicate that Jesus “would be” but that he “was and is.” Scripture speaks of Jesus as the Son of God who was born of Mary. Scripture also speaks of the Son that would come who was not-yet-born but existed with the Father and in fact, was the Father (because he was not yet born). All scripture points to these two ideas.

    Jesus “came down from heaven” because the Father is in heaven and he is the source of Jesus.

    #53304
     NickHassan 
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    Hi not3,
    What of Prov30?

    “4Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? “
    More prophecy?

    #53305
     Not3in1 
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    There is a common Hebrew and Aramaic idiom that when God is the author of something, the Jews spoke of it as “coming from God,” “coming from heaven,” “coming down from heaven,” etc. God said in Malachi that he would “open the windows of heaven and pour out a blessing,” and today we still use the word “Godsend” for a for a blessing that comes at just the right time. The bible speaks of the “bread from heaven” referring to manna, but the manna did not float down like snow. Rather, it appeared like frost on the ground. It was said to “come down from heaven” because God was it's source.

    The Jews would have naturally understood Christ's statements that way, and there is no evidence at all that they would have expected Christ to be speaking of a literal descent from heaven or an “incarnation.”

    #53307
     NickHassan 
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    Hi not3,
    Many use this same argument to deny Christ is even the true son of God.

    #53308
     Not3in1 
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    Prophesy – yes! Did the spirit son have a name? Where does the OT tells us what his name is? Can we see that his name was the “Word” or the “Logos” before he was born?

    Isaiah talks a lot about how God's arm “will” bring about salvation, as if the arm is not yet existent. It talks about the tender shoot “growing up before him” – did the spirit son “grow up” or was he already an adult? The OT is full of predictions that we “will” see the salvation of the Lord…..not that salvation is already working for us……….it was yet to come…..the prediction of a Son coming into the world!

    #53309
     Not3in1 
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    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 28 2007,07:37)
    Hi not3,
    Many use this same argument to deny Christ is even the true son of God.


    Of course that is not my belief. But that does go to show you that no matter what we present here, it can be taken in at least two different ways! :) All we can do is try to see it from the other's point of view. Possibly we might gain some insight to our current belief system?

    #53311
     NickHassan 
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    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 28 2007,07:38)
    Prophesy – yes!  Did the spirit son have a name?  Where does the OT tells us what his name is?  Can we see that his name was the “Word” or the “Logos” before he was born?

    Isaiah talks a lot about how God's arm “will” bring about salvation, as if the arm is not yet existent.  It talks about the tender shoot “growing up before him” – did the spirit son “grow up” or was he already an adult?  The OT is full of predictions that we “will” see the salvation of the Lord…..not that salvation is already working for us……….it was yet to come…..the prediction of a Son coming into the world!


    Hi not3,
    The tender shoot describes only the human view of Christ.

    Is 53
    “1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

    2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

    3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. “

    #53312
     Not3in1 
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    Matthew 1:38
    “I am the Lord's servant, ” Mary answered. “May it be to me as you have said,” Then the angel left her.

    This is the moment that God's Son came down from heaven.

    #53313
     Not3in1 
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    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 28 2007,07:43)

    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 28 2007,07:38)
    Prophesy – yes!  Did the spirit son have a name?  Where does the OT tells us what his name is?  Can we see that his name was the “Word” or the “Logos” before he was born?

    Isaiah talks a lot about how God's arm “will” bring about salvation, as if the arm is not yet existent.  It talks about the tender shoot “growing up before him” – did the spirit son “grow up” or was he already an adult?  The OT is full of predictions that we “will” see the salvation of the Lord…..not that salvation is already working for us……….it was yet to come…..the prediction of a Son coming into the world!


    Hi not3,
    The tender shoot describes only the human view of Christ.

    Is 53
    “1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

    2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

    3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. “


    And somehow you believe you can seperate Jesus? When he was born he was both flesh and spirit – neither of which existed in any form prior to their forming in the womb. As you and I have discussed before and came to agreement, I believe, that even Jesus' “spirit” was given by his parents. Possibly, I will need to review the conception thread to see if you conceded to that or not? I don't honestly remember.

    #53314
     NickHassan 
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    Quote (942767 @ May 28 2007,02:51)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 27 2007,19:40)
    Hi 94
    You say
    “John 1      
    1:1
    In the beginning was the Word (Logos, from Strong's Concordance: “embodies a conception or idea” and the Word(Logos) was with God(these two parts of the verse just indicate that God had and idea or a plan), and the Word was God(and whatever the idea, it was Theos (God)).”

    So you scripture base is Strongs?


    Hi Nick:

    No, I don't base my understanding solely on Strong's but on what the whole of the scriptures say to me, but sometimes we need to know what a word means in order to understand what God is saying through a scripture.

    God Bless


    Hi 94,
    Any concordance only reflects how the translators have translated the manuscripts. They are not dictionaries or lexicons. Strongs has no basis for making such statements as it can show NO occasion when the word LOGOS is translated in the KJV in that way. Thus it reflects prejudice and I suggest should be ignored on this matter.

    #53316
     942767 
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    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 28 2007,07:38)
    Prophesy – yes!  Did the spirit son have a name?  Where does the OT tells us what his name is?  Can we see that his name was the “Word” or the “Logos” before he was born?

    Isaiah talks a lot about how God's arm “will” bring about salvation, as if the arm is not yet existent.  It talks about the tender shoot “growing up before him” – did the spirit son “grow up” or was he already an adult?  The OT is full of predictions that we “will” see the salvation of the Lord…..not that salvation is already working for us……….it was yet to come…..the prediction of a Son coming into the world!


    HiNot3in1 and Nick:

    I agree and as to his name this is what the scripture states:

    9:6
    For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and HIS NAME SHALL BE CALLED Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    Notice that the scripture says HIS NAME SHALL BE CALLED.  Prophetic?  I believe that this indicates, yes.

    God Bless

    #53318
     Not3in1 
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    Any concordance only reflects how the translators have translated the manuscripts. They are not dictionaries or lexicons.
    *****************
    Ah. Thanks for pointing this out.

    #53319
     942767 
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    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 28 2007,07:49)

    Quote (942767 @ May 28 2007,02:51)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 27 2007,19:40)
    Hi 94
    You say
    “John 1      
    1:1
    In the beginning was the Word (Logos, from Strong's Concordance: “embodies a conception or idea” and the Word(Logos) was with God(these two parts of the verse just indicate that God had and idea or a plan), and the Word was God(and whatever the idea, it was Theos (God)).”

    So you scripture base is Strongs?


    Hi Nick:

    No, I don't base my understanding solely on Strong's but on what the whole of the scriptures say to me, but sometimes we need to know what a word means in order to understand what God is saying through a scripture.

    God Bless


    Hi 94,
     Any concordance only reflects how the translators have translated the manuscripts. They are not dictionaries or lexicons. Strongs has no basis for making such statements as it can show NO occasion when the word LOGOS is translated in the KJV in that way. Thus it reflects prejudice and I suggest should be ignored on this matter.


    Hi Nick:

    Sorry Nick, I believe that Strong's concordance has helped me in several circumstances to understand what is being said by the scriptures, and also, translators make mistakes especially since they are biased towards the “trinity doctrine” which you also do not believe, and so what I have stated is what I believe the scripture indicates.

    God Bless

    #53322
     NickHassan 
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    Hi not3,
    Scripture shows Christ can be seen from two perspectives.

    Rom 1
    ” 1Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

    2(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

    3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

    4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:”

    #53323
     Not3in1 
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    There is only one way to see Jesus and that is as the only [conceived and born] Son of God.

    Jesus was “promised” this is true.  God promised Abrahma that his offspring (seed/conceived children) would be as many as the sands.  Jesus is the promised child of God.

    Was Jesus only God's Son *after* the resurrection?

    #53332
     NickHassan 
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    Hi not3,
    Rom 1 says “was proven to be” so it is a confirmation of prophecy. He is the one not allowed to rot prophesisied by David and confirmed to be the HOLY ONE.

    Acts 2
    25For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

    26Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

    27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

    28Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

    29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

    30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

    31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

    32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

    33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

    35Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

    36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

    #53800
     WorshippingJesus 
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    Quote (942767 @ May 28 2007,03:22)
    Hi WJ:

    Quote
    So it was both the eating of his flesh and the drinking of his blood and his claiming to come
    down from heaven that offended them and was hard for them to recieve!

    I agree with you about this it was the whole deal about first him coming down from heaven and the also about eating his flesh and blood.  And so, we are in agreement on this point.

    But let me just ask you the following questions.  Did the body of Jesus exist before before he was born of the Virgin Mary?  And if we are saying “the body of Jesus”.  Who then is Jesus?

    Let's resolve this first and then if you have other points that I haven't addressed restate them and I will address them.

    God Bless


    94

    No I don’t think we agree. Are you saying that Jesus meant we eat physically of his flesh and drink his blood?

    While physically Jesus Body and blood was the atonement for our sins, when Jesus ate the last supper with them the wine and the bread was a type of his broken body and his shed blood which he said this do in remembrance of me.

    The Bread from heaven is a “spiritual” bread, which are the words that he “The Word” spoke.

    Jn 6:35
    And Jesus said unto them, *I am the bread of life*: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

    Jesus said he is the bread and coming to him would mean you never hunger!

    How?

    Jn 6:63
    It is the spirit that quickeneth; *the flesh profiteth nothing*: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

    He is trying to tell them he is not literally speaking of his body and blood, but his “words of life”, for they are Spirit and life.

    Peter got it, “thou hast the words of eternal life”.

    This is not about his physical Body. So his natural birth is not even pertinent to Jesus coming down from heaven or returning back to where he was.

    In this whole incident Jesus is trying to raise their sights to see that *he came from heaven*, and that he had the “Words of Eternal life”, because he is the Eternal life that was with the Father. 1 Jn 1:1,2.

    Jesus the Word was Spirit before he took on the likeness of sinful flesh.

    He is the “Word, the Spirit and the Life! Jn 1:1, Rev 19:13, Jn 7:37, 2 Cor 3:17. Jn 14:6.

    So I reiterate…

    1 Cor 15:45
    And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

    Notice the brackets for “was made”. Added by the translators.

    Look at this verse in its context and a better rendering of the verse would be…

    1 Cor 15: YLT
    45 so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the *last Adam is for a life-giving spirit*,
    46 but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual.
    47 The first man is out of the earth, earthy; *the second man is the Lord out of heaven*;

    Jesus is and was the Eternal life that was with the Father, 1 Jn 1:1,2, and he is the Lord from heaven!

    94! Based on my previous post, do you believe the translators or the Apostle John with over 40 pronouns ascribed to Jesus in Jn 1, did not believe in the pre-existent of Christ?

    And by what basis would you change the translations to reflect such?

    Also based on Col 1:16, and 17 and the above I Cor 15:45-47, do you believe the Apostle Paul believed Jesus was just a thought or plan before he took on the likeness of sinful flesh?

    ???

    Blessings

    #53802
     WorshippingJesus 
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    94

    You say…

    Quote

    But let me just ask you the following questions.  Did the body of Jesus exist before before he was born of the Virgin Mary?  And if we are saying “the body of Jesus”.  Who then is Jesus?


    There are many Hebrew scriptures that show Christ appeared to many before he came in the flesh.

    Dan 3:25 just one example…

    He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

    I encourage you to listen to some of these messages with open heart!

    http://www.eadshome.com/Jesuslessons.htm

    Blessings

    :)

    #53805
     NickHassan 
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    Hi W,
    KJV has stepped off the path here if you check the other versions-look at Young's Literal drawn from the same manuscripts!
    YLT
    25He answered and hath said, `Lo, I am seeing four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the appearance of the fourth [is] like to a son of the gods.'

    nasb
    25He answered and hath said, `Lo, I am seeing four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the appearance of the fourth [is] like to a son of the gods.'

    niv
    25He answered and hath said, `Lo, I am seeing four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the appearance of the fourth [is] like to a son of the gods.'

    esv
    25He answered and hath said, `Lo, I am seeing four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the appearance of the fourth [is] like to a son of the gods.'

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