Did Jesus pre-exist before his birth on Earth?

This topic contains 520 replies, has 0 voices, and was last updated by  NickHassan 11 months, 1 week ago.

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  • #804581
     Danny Dabbs 
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    Thank You. Kerwin,

    I think John 3:13 is very clear. “No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven—the Son of Man.” (HCSB)

    What do you think?

    Peace to you!

    Danny

    #804582
     kerwin 
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    Terrarica,

    for a real man comes from a women and a man connection

    This point denies the power of God as well as being untrue.

    It is untrue as in the case of identical twins the child of “twin” is formed through mitosis and not through the fusion of a male and a female gamete.

    Both the point and counterpoint are vain because they deny the power of God.

    To know when John the Baptist declared “For I tell you that God can raise up children for Abraham from these stones” that he spoke truth is a sign of faith in the power of God.

    The angel told Mary that Jesus would be conceived in her. The word conceived is always the start of something though for political and other reasons it has been changed in dictionaries to a slightly later time when speaking of women conceiving. After all no one wants to say a petri dish conceived a child even though it is technically true in some cases. To return to my point the angel essentially stated the holy thing will begin to exist inside your body and you are to name him Jesus.

    In Romans 1:3 we are taught that in regards to his body Jesus was made from the Seed of David. That matches up with Peter’s claim on Pentecost that Jesus is a descendant of King David.

    #804583
     kerwin 
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    Danny Dabbs,

    The context is Jesus speaking to Nicodemus at a time before he physically ascended to heaven. That context rules out a physical ascension and so leaves a Spiritual ascension. Jesus states he is in his Father and our Father, whom he calls God, and the Father of us all is in him. God is in heaven so in order for Jesus to be in him there must have been a Spiritual ascension. Believers do not Spiritually ascend to heaven until they enter the new covenant and that was first accomplished on Pentecost.

    John 3:13New International Version (NIV)

    13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[a]
    Footnotes:

    John 3:13 Some manuscripts Man, who is in heaven

    I tend to think those manuscripts with the alternative text “who is in heaven” are correct as it better expresses the idea of God descending to live in Jesus by the Holy Spirit and Jesus ascending to sit with God on his throne through the same Spirit.

    #804584
     terraricca 
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    kerwin

    I tend to think those manuscripts with the alternative text “who is in heaven” are correct as it better expresses the idea of God descending to live in Jesus by the Holy Spirit and Jesus ascending to sit with God on his throne through the same Spirit.

    ———————————————————-
    this is trinitarian and bias at best first God almighty never came down to earth NEVER, the son did for the purpose explained in scriptures ,God does not live personally in anyone but his laws/wisdom/will/holiness/righteousness/truth/ …. does

    so you are wrong and rejecting the son of God that came down from heaven

    #804587
     kerwin 
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    Terrarica,

    God is all present but the center of his power is in heaven.

    Psalm 139:7-8English Standard Version (ESV)

    7
    Where shall I go from your Spirit?
    Or where shall I flee from your presence?
    8
    If I ascend to heaven, you are there!
    If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!

    Nevertheless, you should know that believers that are immersed in the name of Jesus Christ are seated with him in heaven even as they are physically on earth, (Ephesians 2:6)

    You also should know that God dwells in them through his Spirit.(1 Corinthians 3:16)

    I simply apply these passages to Jesus and it explains the words of John 3:13.

    #804588
     kerwin 
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    Terrarica,

    God does not live personally in anyone but his laws/wisdom/will/holiness/righteousness/truth/ …. does

    I missed these words until I reread your post.

    The same Spirit he walks according to lives in those that believe as a teacher.

    #804590
     NickHassan 
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    Hi,

    The dogma of preexistence is a way those who do not know the Word made flesh rationalise truth.

    The Word was with God before Jesus was conceived .

     

    Of course the Word was not a being but the Spirit of Christ

     

     

    #804591
     terraricca 
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    Nick

    thanks for your opinion but opinions do not make scriptures ; you have still to get rid of your man made stories and start to believe what scriptures says ,

    where in scriptures does it says that the “word of God ” was the “spirit of Christ “?

    I know that the prophecies are the spirit of Christ Rev 19;. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

    understand that all prophecies testify of Jesus Christ , but not of the “WORD of GOD”

    #804592
     terraricca 
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    K

    God is all present but the center of his power is in heaven.

    God himself does not look at you but his angels are reporting you to him ,

    and yes there is no place that God would not be made aware of ;

    Job 1:6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.
    Job 1:7 The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
    Satan answered the LORD, “From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it.”

    MT 18:10 “See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven

    it is the angels that protect us from arm by the wicked , just has it is the devil angels that put stumbling blocks in front of us

    #804597
     AndrewAD 
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    It all appears as to whether one believes the later revelations. Luke projects what he thinks was early/primitive belief.

    But as far as Holy Scripture goes it clearly proclaims the pre-existent Christ. For what of this verse from Hebrews as pertaining to Christ’s priesthood and sacrifice

    Hebrews 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

    Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

    This shows the authors belief in the pre existense of Christ for how could he have suffered from the beginning of the world if he did not exist?

    #804603
     NickHassan 
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    Hi,

    You need to know Christ or you will never recognise him in his brothers.

    Of course the Spirit of Christ is not divided but unites those in him with the Father.

    #804610
     kerwin 
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    Terrarica,

    God himself does not look at you but his angels are reporting you to him ,

    God is all seeing and all knowing but his angels do return to the center of his power and make reports on what they observe. God already knew the answer to the question he asked Satan but he tested Satan’s heart by asking it. He also set in motion Satan’s action which would test the hearts of Job and others in the following period of time.

    it is the angels that protect us from arm by the wicked , just has it is the devil angels that put stumbling blocks in front of us

    I agree with this statement but with the addition that they must obtain permission from God first; just as Satan had to in order to temp Job to sin.

    #804611
     kerwin 
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    AndrewAD,

    Hebrews 9:24-28English Standard Version (ESV)

    24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

    I do not know for sure where you see preexistence implied by the words you quoted from Hebrews 9 and so I am assuming you believe it claims that Jesus Christ has been suffering from the foundation of the world. If that is what you hear then reread the passage which actually saying he did not suffer from the foundation of the world because his self-sacrifice is superior to that of all other high priests. Instead he only had to sacrifice himself one time, the one time you already know of.

    #804613
     terraricca 
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    kerwin

    I agree with this statement but with the addition that they must obtain permission from God first; just as Satan had to in order to temp Job to sin.

    —————————————————

    you statement is only true with the righteous ,but we are many time victim of our own doing meaning say things or do things that are not righteous and so open a door for the devil angels to get to us ,this is why we as righteous we have to really pay attention to what we say and do ,so not to let the devil in

    #804615
     terraricca 
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    Kerwin

    you still never addressed the OP scriptures individually so that we can see that you really have nothing against the preexisting of Jesus

    #804626
     kerwin 
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    Terrarica and t8,

    Jesus is well known for his metaphysical turn of speech. He even told his student-adherents why he chose to speak that way.

    John 6:38-40
    For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Jesus is telling us that he Spiritually came down from heaven in order to do the will of God who is in heaven. He also teaches us that he chose to submit the will of his flesh to God. He then tell us what God’s will is.

    Scripture already declares Jesus body was conceived in Mary and that in regards to his body he is a descendant of Mary.

    Remember Jesus teaches us that his words are Spirit. (John 6:63)

    It takes time to answer passages one by one.

    This answer is similar to the one for John 3:13 and others. In short his Spirit is the Spirit of God and the Spirit of God comes from God whose center of power is in heaven.

    #804639
     terraricca 
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    Kerwin

    Jesus is telling us that he Spiritually came down from heaven in order to do the will of God

    ——————————————————————–

    kerwin scriptures do not say that you do ,read the scriptures and see

    #804642
     NickHassan 
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    Hi,

    The Word spoke through Jesus.

    The Word was with God in the beginning.

    Look deeper

    #804643
     kerwin 
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    Terrarica,

    Actually they do if you look at them with Spiritual eyes.

    Matthew 12:18English Standard Version (ESV)

    18
    “Behold, my servant whom I have chosen,
    my beloved with whom my soul is well pleased.
    I will put my Spirit upon him,
    and he will proclaim justice to the Gentiles.

    God foretells a time when he will place his Spirit on Jesus Christ. Jesus’ Spirit comes from heaven because it comes from God.

    #804644
     kerwin 
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    Terrarica,

    Here is another passage that is speaking of the Spiritual and not the physical.

    John 14:23English Standard Version (ESV)

    23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

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