Did Jesus pre-exist before his birth on Earth? (Page 34)

Where did Jesus come from?

John 6:38-40
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The first verse suggests that Jesus came down from Heaven. This seems to contradict that belief which suggests he first existed as a man when he was born into this world. For if Jesus came into existence for the first time when he was conceived through Mary, how could he come down from Heaven? We (Man) came into existence when we are born into this world, but would it be correct to say that we came down from Heaven too? If a verse said that we came down from Heaven, would you think that we pre-existed in Heaven? If so, then why not Jesus?

John 3:17 is another verse that provides support that Jesus came down from Heaven or was sent rather than created.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

The word ‘send’ is the Greek word ‘apostello’.

apostello {ap-os-tel’-lo}
1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed
2) to send away, dismiss
2a) to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty
2b) to order one to depart, send off
2c) to drive away

To be sent surely implies existence otherwise you would just say born or created. In fact this word (sent) is similar in meaning and sound to the word Apostle (apostolos), which means “one sent forth with orders”. To be sent forth with order, you must exist.

John 6:62
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

Jesus is clearly stating here that he came from above since he eventually ascended into Heaven to be at the right-hand of God.

How old is Jesus?

John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.‘ “

John the Baptist was six months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him in age. If this verse is referencing age, then it shows preexistence. Jesus existed before  John the Baptist in the least.

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!

Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham, the father of the Jews. The words ‘I am’ mean ‘I exist’. So Jesus claimed existence before Abraham. We can see that Jesus is getting older as we explore the scriptures. But how old?

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

Here we can see that majesty, power, and authority through Jesus Christ is before all ages (all worlds) and forever more into the future. This strongly implies that Jesus existed even before all things. But can we substantiate this?

Did Jesus exist before all creation?

Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Colossians answers the question outright. It states that “He is before all things“.  But are there other verses that support this idea?

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So there is nothing that was made that didn’t involve Jesus being there. This verse alone answers the question because the universe, angels, and men were made and Jesus was present when they were created according to these verses. In case that is not enough to convince you, I also add another clear verse that says the same thing.

Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Is Jesus the Word of God?

But some say that this is talking about the Word and not all believe that Jesus is the Word of God. They argue that Jesus came from the Word, but is not the Word itself that was with God in John 1:1. If you believe this, then please explain the next two verses within their wider context:

Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

Colossians 1:15-18
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

Okay, if you are honest, this is a closed case. God created all things through the Word. Jesus is called the Word of God and also the son of God. We are also told that God created all things through the son of God. Even if you do not believe that Jesus is the Word, then you still have to believe that Jesus pre-existed on account of him being the son of God. But what we know from scripture is that Jesus existed as the Word of God before he came as a man called Jesus. We know that the Word became flesh.

More proof verses

If Jesus pre-existed, then you might expect that even though the above verses are clear, there would be more verses that teach or at least imply that he pre-existed. So let’s see if this is the case.

Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existence before King David. He also claims to be the bright Morning Star and we read in Job how the Morning Stars were present when God created the Earth.

Job 38:6-7
“On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy? 

Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Comparing Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10, some say that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. If this was the case, then Jesus saw an event that took place before he was born as a man. However, others argue that Satan hasn’t fallen to the Earth yet, or that he has, but Jesus saw this in a vision. Regardless, it certainly doesn’t contradict that Jesus pre-existed.

Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

The above verse talks about someone who will rule Israel and whose origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God/Divine.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Clearly, Jesus was with God in the beginning as the Word of God. This places his existence as before all things and thus comes as no surprise that he was there when God created all things.

The Angel of YHWH

We know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and many assume that Jesus gave the Law of God. We are told in Acts:7:30-39 for instance that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.

30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord’s voice:
32 ‘I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.’Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 “Then the Lord said to him, ‘Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.’
35 “This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, ‘Who made you ruler and judge?’ He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 “This is that Moses who told the Israelites, ‘God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.’
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 “But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.

So is this Angel of the Lord, Jesus? Well it seems possible. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed the message to Jesus Christ who in turn sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the angel in Revelation is the same angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39.

But the Angel of YHWH or Angel of the LORD is described as one like the son of gods.

Daniel 3:24-25
Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astounded and stood up in haste; he said to his high officials, “Was it not three men we cast bound into the midst of the fire?” They replied to the king, “Certainly, O king.” He said, “Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods!”

The idea that a preincarnate Jesus was this Angel of the LORD is a popular one. We know that this Angel of the LORD is never mentioned while Jesus is walking the earth which supports this idea. But it could also be a coincidence. One connection that can be made with Jesus being this messenger is found in Judges 13:18.

Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, “What is your name, so that when your words come to pass, we may honor you?” But the angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?”

Now read what Isaiah prophesied in Isaiah 9:6 .

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Clearly, Isaiah was speaking of Jesus Christ and note that he was called Wonderful Counselor. Is there a connection here? Perhaps. What we do know is the word ‘angel’ is the same word messenger in the Old Testament, and while it is held that Jesus is not an angel in kind, we know he certainly was a messenger of YHWH and would be fair to say even ‘The Messenger of YHWH’.

So the idea that he may be this angel is not that far fetched. Some vehemently oppose this idea, but they are not aware that both Jesus and John are called angels in the messenger sense.

More to come here……

More proof that Jesus pre-existed

Rev 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.

Moving on we read the following in Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Surely the above verses assumes preexistence.  Look at verse 7: ‘but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness’. This verse points out that Jesus humbled himself to become a (or like a) human and also a servant. So this suggests to us that he preexisted in a higher state because to humble oneself is to become lower. If he started life in this humbled state, then it would be incorrect to say that he humbled himself. Further, he “found himself in appearance as a man” is a weird statement to make if he first existed as a human baby.

This verse is often used in support of the trinity doctrine because of the word ‘equal’. But if you are equal to something it means that you are not that thing, rather you are like that thing. This scripture is also very clear about the following: The Father is God and Jesus is Lord and that God exalted Jesus to the highest place.

A closer look at verse 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Now I am not sure if Jesus was exalted higher than he was before he came to this world or whether he was exalted to the exact position that he had before. But if we look at John 17:5 again we can see that Jesus asked to return to his former glory.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

The above verse is clear about Christ’s pre-existence in glory before the world began. Just to prove this is not an isolated scripture here is a similar verse:

John 16:28
I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.”

The next verse also confirms that Jesus pre-existed in Heaven.

John 3:12-15
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

Ezekiel 8:1-3
1 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign LORD came upon me there.
2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal.
3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.

This verse is interesting in the sense that the description is very similar to the description of Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:12-18,

12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,” dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.
14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Have a look at the next verse. 1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Now the word head in the Greek is ‘kephale’ which can mean head, source or master. Now if we notice the order in a time sense, we have to admit that God is the first as he is the only one who has existed for all eternity with no beginning. We also know from scripture that the man came first and the woman came from the man. So that part is correct if we use a timeline. That just leaves Christ. Did he come between God and Man. I think so, as I believe that all things came from him and this opinion does fit perfectly into this model in a time sense at least. Anyway the word Christ here is ‘Christos’ which means “anointed”. So the anointed is the head of Man.
God > Christ > Man > Woman

If God created all things for his Son and his Son was the channel for that creation to come into being, then we can only assume that Christ existed at this point. As Genesis says: Let us make Man in our image. God was talking to Christ at this point and we know that Christ is the image of God and we are the image of Christ. Therefore the image of the image of God (man) is still the image of God. But Christ is the original and first image and we can only assume again that that image existed before the image of the image. A bit like a mirror that reflects a mirror, the original mirror has to exist in order to reflect the second mirror.

So we know that Christ preexisted before creation and now we will look at some more scriptures that show that he was born before creation itself?

Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

The above verse is quite clear that ALL things were created by or through Jesus.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So again, there is nothing that was made that didn’t involve Jesus/The Word being there. Only the Father and Son were not made. God has always existed and the Son was born from God before the creation of the universe, before anything was made. The next verse describes clearly who/what was the first of God’s works.

Proverbs 8:22-30
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,

This verse is talking about Wisdom, whom many believe is Christ. This scriptures compliments other scriptures that that teach that Jesus was given birth by God and then created all THINGS though him.

So from this verse we can see the following points.

Wisdom was brought forth as the first of Gods works.
Wisdom was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
Wisdom was given birth before creation.
Wisdom was the craftsman at his side and rejoiced in his presence before creation.
Some say that Wisdom isn’t Christ, rather this is just wisdom in a conceptual sense and it is true that wisdom is being spoken of in that way. But from verse 22 onward it changes tempo. With terms like I was given birth, I was the craftsman at his side and I was filled with delight, we have to admit that it seems to be talking about a person. Now have a look at the following verses:

1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV)
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Let’s look at some other concepts that Jesus personifies:

Jesus is the Truth. Yet truth is also a concept.
Jesus is the Way. Yet the way is also a concept.
Jesus is the Life. Yet life can also be a concept.
Now look at the following mystery:

1 Corinthians 2:6-9
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written:
“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him”

Ephesians 3:8-10
8 Although I am less than the least of all God’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,

Perhaps another scripture alluding to Jesus being the Wisdom of God.

Finally I leave you with the following OT scripture that suggests that God had a Son before the birth Of Jesus Christ on earth.

Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 661 through 680 (of 19,165 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #58824
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    knrch ….> the word is the Father's Sprit i believe this also and it was in Jesus and it is God The Father He cohabits with Us.

    remamber when Jesus said, ” come unto me all you who are heave laden, take of my yoke, I am lowely and my burdon is light .

    this yoke was his atachment to the Father and it lightend his load he had. its the same yoke he wanted us to take it will lighten our loads also this yoke yokes us to The Father . and it comes through the Spirit.
    remember in the old testement when God called the Isrealites stiff necked > some times when they would try to yoke to oxen together one would stiffen it's neck so they couldn't put the yoke on, and thats what the Isrealite Nation was doing with God they would not yoke with him.

    But when we put on the Yoke Jesus had on him and yoke with the Father, the Father lightens our load also like he did Jesus.

    peace and blessings to brother…..gene

    #58829

    Quote (t8 @ July 09 2007,14:52)
    Did Jesus humble and empty himself and became a man?
    Did he not then return to the Father's side to the glory that he once had?
    Is his origin not from ancient times?
    Is he not before all things?
    Is he not the Word who became flesh and is still called the Word?
    Did he not exist before Abraham?
    Was he not before John the Baptist, even though he came after?
    Is he not both the root and offspring of David?
    Was he not the rock that accompanied the Israelites?
    Was he not from Heaven before he came to earth?
    Did he not return to Heaven, rather than visit for the first time?
    Is he not the wisdom of God?
    Is God our Savior not deserving of glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore?

    If not, then I guess I should just throw away my bible.

    What do you think?


    t8

    Good post!

    Excellent points!

    I know you are shocked.

    But I am serious!

    :)

    #58830
    Laurel
    Participant

    Gene, Thank you for your insight. Well said. It takes a lot to become so humble. It took me a lot and every day I'm tempted I renew my faith when I choose His will and not my own. I learned though that Satan tempts us most when we are vulnerable in our hearts. He know our weekness because he was created a very intellegent and beautiful angel. That is why he is so good at deceiving us.
    We will know them by their works.

    #58832
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 09 2007,15:46)

    Quote (t8 @ July 09 2007,14:52)
    Did Jesus humble and empty himself and became a man?
    Did he not then return to the Father's side to the glory that he once had?
    Is his origin not from ancient times?
    Is he not before all things?
    Is he not the Word who became flesh and is still called the Word?
    Did he not exist before Abraham?
    Was he not before John the Baptist, even though he came after?
    Is he not both the root and offspring of David?
    Was he not the rock that accompanied the Israelites?
    Was he not from Heaven before he came to earth?
    Did he not return to Heaven, rather than visit for the first time?
    Is he not the wisdom of God?
    Is God our Savior not deserving of glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore?

    If not, then I guess I should just throw away my bible.

    What do you think?


    t8

    Good post!

    Excellent points!

    I know you are shocked.

    But I am serious!

    :)


    Wow.

    Excuse me while I faint.

    Will post again when I come to.

    :D

    #59615
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ July 09 2007,16:20)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 09 2007,15:46)

    Quote (t8 @ July 09 2007,14:52)
    Did Jesus humble and empty himself and became a man?
    Did he not then return to the Father's side to the glory that he once had?
    Is his origin not from ancient times?
    Is he not before all things?
    Is he not the Word who became flesh and is still called the Word?
    Did he not exist before Abraham?
    Was he not before John the Baptist, even though he came after?
    Is he not both the root and offspring of David?
    Was he not the rock that accompanied the Israelites?
    Was he not from Heaven before he came to earth?
    Did he not return to Heaven, rather than visit for the first time?
    Is he not the wisdom of God?
    Is God our Savior not deserving of glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore?

    If not, then I guess I should just throw away my bible.

    What do you think?


    t8

    Good post!

    Excellent points!

    I know you are shocked.

    But I am serious!

    :)


    Wow.

    Excuse me while I faint.

    Will post again when I come to.

    :D


    t8,

    I don't think you should throw away your Bible, however; I do think you should realize that scripture lends itself to your view and others.

    You interpret the scriptures, right? According to what you believe the Father has shown you, you use inference; logic mixed with faith, and you draw your conclusions about what each scripture is saying. What makes you so bold as to assume that your interpretations/conclusions are the only correct ones?

    Instead of making bold statements that imply your interpretations of scripture are completely true and correct or if not, you should through away your Bible…….I would ponder why it is that WJ agrees with your post?

    :;):

    #59649

    Quote (Not3in1 @ July 14 2007,16:13)

    Quote (t8 @ July 09 2007,16:20)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 09 2007,15:46)

    Quote (t8 @ July 09 2007,14:52)
    Did Jesus humble and empty himself and became a man?
    Did he not then return to the Father's side to the glory that he once had?
    Is his origin not from ancient times?
    Is he not before all things?
    Is he not the Word who became flesh and is still called the Word?
    Did he not exist before Abraham?
    Was he not before John the Baptist, even though he came after?
    Is he not both the root and offspring of David?
    Was he not the rock that accompanied the Israelites?
    Was he not from Heaven before he came to earth?
    Did he not return to Heaven, rather than visit for the first time?
    Is he not the wisdom of God?
    Is God our Savior not deserving of glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore?

    If not, then I guess I should just throw away my bible.

    What do you think?


    t8

    Good post!

    Excellent points!

    I know you are shocked.

    But I am serious!

    :)


    Wow.

    Excuse me while I faint.

    Will post again when I come to.

    :D


    t8,

    I don't think you should throw away your Bible, however; I do think you should realize that scripture lends itself to your view and others.

    You interpret the scriptures, right?  According to what you believe the Father has shown you, you use inference; logic mixed with faith, and you draw your conclusions about what each scripture is saying.  What makes you so bold as to assume that your interpretations/conclusions are the only correct ones?  

    Instead of making bold statements that imply your interpretations of scripture are completely true and correct or if not, you should through away your Bible…….I would ponder why it is that WJ agrees with your post?  

    :;):


    not3

    He dosnt have to ponder because while we may disagree with who Jesus is we do not diagree with His Pre-existence!

    You should ponder yourself as to why that is! ???

    Scriptures are very clear that Jesus was before Abraham!

    :O

    #59650
    Not3in1
    Participant

    The Scriptures are not very clear, WJ.

    Goodness………..look at us! Listen to every single person that participates in this forum!

    Clear? Hardly.

    #59651
    Not3in1
    Participant

    You and t8 disagree about who Jesus is, therefore you both have a different “preexistent” Jesus!

    That is not even close to an agreement, I'm afraid.

    Oh, how I wish that God would give us all the answers NOW. Wouldn't that be nice? :)

    #59665
    TimothyVI
    Participant

    I think that God tried to make it clear. Then man with all of his wisdom started looking
    for hidden meanings to the words. Searched for spiritual meanings behind simple
    explanations. Tried to mystify everything in scriptures. And what do we get?
    C O N F U S I O N.

    The wisdom of man is foolishness to God.

    Tim

    #59688
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (TimothyVI @ July 14 2007,22:12)
    I think that God tried to make it clear. Then man with all of his wisdom started looking
    for hidden meanings to the words. Searched for spiritual meanings behind simple
    explanations. Tried to mystify everything in scriptures. And what do we get?
    C O N F U S I O N.

    The wisdom of man is foolishness to God.

    Tim


    Tim,

    I agree wholeheartedly!

    One thing I have let go of while here on HeavenNet is that I have the ONLY answer/interpretation/conclusion/truth. The truth is, Scripture lends itself to many different views, and because of this, we have many different conclusions regarding a great many topics.

    This is why I encouraged t8 not to throw his Bible away if he one day finds out it doesn't say what he thought it did! :)

    My pastor once told a story about when he was in Seminary; he said that one of his professors asked them to write down some core beliefs and doctrinal stances that they were sure of. It was a very entertaining story and I am not doing it justice, however the point to the story was – just before graduation, this professor returned those papers to each student. My pastor said, “Guess what I did with my paper?” Long pause……and then he answered, “I crumped it up and threw it away!”

    #59708
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (Not3in1 @ July 14 2007,19:20)
    You and t8 disagree about who Jesus is, therefore you both have a different “preexistent” Jesus!  

    That is not even close to an agreement, I'm afraid.

    Oh, how I wish that God would give us all the answers NOW.  Wouldn't that be nice?  :)


    Hi not3,
    PREEXISTANT is an OXYMORON.

    It is a term that views life only from an earthly perspective.

    God and angels existed before any visible creation-would you say God preexisted?

    It is a term that introduces bias.

    Soi if you use the term about the MAN Jesus Christ clearly you are saying he is only an ordinary physical man. And yet you want to call him a god/man.

    I do not understand.

    #59717
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 15 2007,07:39)

    Quote (Not3in1 @ July 14 2007,19:20)
    You and t8 disagree about who Jesus is, therefore you both have a different “preexistent” Jesus!  

    That is not even close to an agreement, I'm afraid.

    Oh, how I wish that God would give us all the answers NOW.  Wouldn't that be nice?  :)


    Hi not3,
    PREEXISTANT is an OXYMORN.

    It is a term that views life only from an earthly perspective.

    God and angels existed before any visible creation-would you say God preexisted?

    It is a term that introduces bias.

    Soi if you use the term about the MAN Jesus Christ clearly you are saying he is only an ordinary physical man. And yet you want to call him a god/man.

    I do not understand.


    Earthly perspective is all we have to work with.  We cannot begin to conceive of what God has planned for us, or how high the heavens are, or what is in the heavens!  We must work with what we can.

    Angels were created and so there was a time when they were not.  God has always been, so that is pretty much a moot point.  However, preexistence suggests that some being lived “before” they actually existed.  The only bias, that I can see, the term brings is that it puts into a term the theology you embrace.  A word needed to be constructed (much like “incarnation”) that is soley used for “Christianity” because the idea or concept cannot be found in scripture.  Certainly there is no word that describes this ideal in the Bible.  So, we made one up!

    I'm sorry, but your second-to-last sentence is unclear to me?

    #59725
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi not3
    You say
    “However, preexistence suggests that some being lived “before” they actually existed. “
    What does this mean?
    Angels have come to earth and been seen as human.
    Did they preexist?

    #59811
    Is 1:18
    Participant

    This is another absurd statement if Yeshua did not preexist:

    Matthew 11:27
    “All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

    No one knows the father except the Son? You would think that one of the hosts of heaven, who are in the company of the Father, would “know” the Father better than Yeshua. It's a very strange declaration if Yeshua did not preexist his incarnation….

    #59813
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Is 1.18,
    Yes. BTW in context it refers mainly to men.
    ” 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man[3672] knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him .”

    Number 3762
    Transliteration:
    oudeis {oo-dice'} including feminine oudemia {oo-dem-ee'-ah}
    Word Origin:
    from 3761 and 1520
    Part of Speech:
    pronoun
    Usage in the KJV:
    no man 94, nothing 68, none 27, no 24, any man 3, any 3, man 2, neither any man 2, misc 13

    Total: 236
    Definition:
    no one, nothing

    #59816
    Is 1:18
    Participant

    That's not true.

    G3762
    οὐδείς
    oudeis
    oo-dice'

    Including the feminine οὐδεμία oudemia

    oo-dem-ee'-ah and the neuter οὐδέν ouden oo-den'
    From G3761 and G1520; not even one (man, woman or thing), that is, none, nobody, nothing: – any (man), aught, man, neither any (thing), never (man), no (man), none (+ of these things), not (any, at all, -thing), nought. (Strong's Concordance)

    Not specific to “men”.

    #59822
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Is 1.18.
    Have it your way.

    #59831
    charity
    Participant

    Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 15 2007,12:36)
    This is another absurd statement if Yeshua did not preexist:

    Matthew 11:27
    “All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

    No one knows the father except the Son? You would think that one of the hosts of heaven, who are in the company of the Father, would “know” the Father better than Yeshua. It's a very strange declaration if Yeshua did not preexist his incarnation….


    . Hi Is,1,18
    This depends on whether you have faith in the resurrection of the dead, some one is conformed to the Image of the son, being predestinated becoming then the first born,

    Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    Being not yet conformed to be the first born, God delivers to the Holy one, exalted, and chosen out of Many, which happens to be of the generations of the Father looking to the generation of the Sons, that shall be lead by the first fruits of them that slept, Christ, this father was delivered that he shall be the first born of Many to follow.by the covenant of the soul shall live, “resrrection of the dead”  
    Psa 89:19  Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon [one that is] mighty; I have exalted [one] chosen out of the people.
    I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
    With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
    The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
    And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
    But my faithfulness and my mercy [shall be] with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted. I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
    He shall cry unto me, Thou [art] my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. Also I will make him [my] firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

    These words could be compare to…the sixth  day of  creation…Gen 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:A covenant given to the fathers…one day is as thousdand years for us..at the end of the day, that word became flesh…to replemish and subdue the generations on earth …Gen 1:27  So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. for God Had only the fathers that he first spoke thru..1Cr 15:46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural;

    The resurrection of the dead, is from the grave.(womb)
    That of which John specks.. Saying the resurrection of Life, is the resurrection of Life, after the second death, the cross,
    Which John is the only one to say the words???

    (resurrection AND of AND life)
    occurs in 1 verse in the KJV
    Page 1 / 1 (Jhn 5:29 – Jhn 5:29)
    Jhn 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.  

    Dead..that which was lost, saw corruption, notice nothing from Mark or Luke??
    (resurrection AND of AND the AND dead)
    occurs in 14 verses in the KJV
    Page 1 / 1 (Mat 22:31 – Rev 20:5)
    Mat 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,  
    Act 17:32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this [matter].  
    Act 23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men [and] brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.  
    Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.  
    Act 24:21 Except it be for this one voice, that I cried standing among them, Touching the resurrection of the dead I am called in question by you this day.  
    Rom 1:4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:  
    1Cr 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?  
    1Cr 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:  
    1Cr 15:21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.  
    1Cr 15:42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:  
    Phl 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.  
    Hbr 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.  
    1Pe 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,  
    Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.  

    :D charity

    #59874
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 15 2007,13:41)
    Hi Is 1.18.
    Have it your way.


    You guys crack me up!
    :D

    #59875
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 15 2007,12:36)
    This is another absurd statement if Yeshua did not preexist:

    Matthew 11:27
    “All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

    No one knows the father except the Son? You would think that one of the hosts of heaven, who are in the company of the Father, would “know” the Father better than Yeshua. It's a very strange declaration if Yeshua did not preexist his incarnation….


    Hi Isaiah,

    Of course you won't find it odd that I disagree with you. :)

    Do you think a biological son would have been closer to Gepphetio than Pinoccio was? Pinoccio was created – a biological son would have shared much more and qualified for a closer bond.

    I would imagine that the same goes for angels and the beloved Son of God. Angels were created; the Son is a part of the Father.

    Paul even said that Jesus was greater than Moses. Why would Jesus be greater than Moses? Moses was a prophet, but Jesus is a true Son.

    We are adopted.
    Jesus already belongs.

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