Did Jesus pre-exist before his birth on Earth? (Page 2)

Where did Jesus come from?

John 6:38-40
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The first verse suggests that Jesus came down from Heaven. This seems to contradict that belief which suggests he first existed as a man when he was born into this world. For if Jesus came into existence for the first time when he was conceived through Mary, how could he come down from Heaven? We (Man) came into existence when we are born into this world, but would it be correct to say that we came down from Heaven too? If a verse said that we came down from Heaven, would you think that we pre-existed in Heaven? If so, then why not Jesus?

John 3:17 is another verse that provides support that Jesus came down from Heaven or was sent rather than created.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

The word ‘send’ is the Greek word ‘apostello’.

apostello {ap-os-tel’-lo}
1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed
2) to send away, dismiss
2a) to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty
2b) to order one to depart, send off
2c) to drive away

To be sent surely implies existence otherwise you would just say born or created. In fact this word (sent) is similar in meaning and sound to the word Apostle (apostolos), which means “one sent forth with orders”. To be sent forth with order, you must exist.

How old is Jesus?

John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.‘ “

John the Baptist was six months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him in age. If this verse is referencing age, then it shows preexistence. Jesus existed before  John the Baptist in the least.

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!

Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham, the father of the Jews. The words ‘I am’ mean ‘I exist’. So Jesus claimed existence before Abraham. We can see that Jesus is getting older as we explore the scriptures. But how old?

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

Here we can see that majesty, power, and authority through Jesus Christ is before all ages (all worlds) and forever more into the future. This strongly implies that Jesus existed even before all things. But can we substantiate this?

Did Jesus exist before all creation?

Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Colossians answers the question outright. It states that “He is before all things“.  But are there other verses that support this idea?

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So there is nothing that was made that didn’t involve Jesus being there. This verse alone answers the question because the universe, angels, and men were made and Jesus was present when they were created according to these verses. In case that is not enough to convince you, I also add another clear verse that says the same thing.

Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Is Jesus the Word of God?

But some say that this is talking about the Word and not all believe that Jesus is the Word of God. They argue that Jesus came from the Word, but is not the Word itself that was with God in John 1:1. If you believe this, then please explain the next two verses within their wider context:

Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

Colossians 1:15-18
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

Okay, if you are honest, this is a closed case. God created all things through the Word. Jesus is called the Word of God and also the son of God. We are also told that God created all things through the son of God. Even if you do not believe that Jesus is the Word, then you still have to believe that Jesus pre-existed on account of him being the son of God. But what we know from scripture is that Jesus existed as the Word of God before he came as a man called Jesus. We know that the Word became flesh.

More proof verses

If Jesus pre-existed, then you might expect that even though the above verses are clear, there would be more verses that teach or at least imply that the pre-existed. So let’s see if this is the case.

Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existence before King David. He also claims to be the bright Morning Star and we read in Job how the Morning Stars were present when God created the Earth.

Job 38:6-7
“On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy? 

Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Comparing Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10, some say that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. If this was the case, then Jesus saw an event that took place before he was born as a man. However, others argue that Satan hasn’t fallen to the Earth yet, or that he has, but Jesus saw this in a vision. Regardless, it certainly doesn’t contradict that Jesus pre-existed.

Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

The above verse talks about someone who will rule Israel and whose origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God/Divine.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Clearly, Jesus was with God in the beginning as the Word of God. This places his existence as before all things and thus comes as no surprise that he was there when God created all things.

The Angel of YHWH

We know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and many assume that Jesus gave the Law of God. We are told in Acts:7:30-39 for instance that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.

30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord’s voice:
32 ‘I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.’Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 “Then the Lord said to him, ‘Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.’
35 “This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, ‘Who made you ruler and judge?’ He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 “This is that Moses who told the Israelites, ‘God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.’
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 “But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.

So is this Angel of the Lord, Jesus? Well it seems possible. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed the message to Jesus Christ who in turn sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the angel in Revelation is the same angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39.

But the Angel of YHWH or Angel of the LORD is described as one like the son of gods.

Daniel 3:24-25
Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astounded and stood up in haste; he said to his high officials, “Was it not three men we cast bound into the midst of the fire?” They replied to the king, “Certainly, O king.” He said, “Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods!”

The idea that a preincarnate Jesus was this Angel of the LORD is a popular one. We know that this Angel of the LORD is never mentioned while Jesus is walking the earth which supports this idea. But it could also be a coincidence. One connection that can be made with Jesus being this messenger is found in Judges 13:18.

Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, “What is your name, so that when your words come to pass, we may honor you?” But the angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?”

Now read what Isaiah prophesied in Isaiah 9:6 .

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Clearly, Isaiah was speaking of Jesus Christ and note that he was called Wonderful Counselor. Is there a connection here? Perhaps. What we do know is the word ‘angel’ is the same word messenger in the Old Testament, and while it is held that Jesus is not an angel in kind, we know he certainly was a messenger of YHWH and would be fair to say even ‘The Messenger of YHWH’.

So the idea that he may be this angel is not that far fetched. Some vehemently oppose this idea, but they are not aware that both Jesus and John are called angels in the messenger sense.

More to come here……

More proof that Jesus pre-existed

Rev 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.

Moving on we read the following in Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Surely the above verses assumes preexistence.  Look at verse 7: ‘but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness’. This verse points out that Jesus humbled himself to become a (or like a) human and also a servant. So this suggests to us that he preexisted in a higher state because to humble oneself is to become lower. If he started life in this humbled state, then it would be incorrect to say that he humbled himself. Further, he “found himself in appearance as a man” is a weird statement to make if he first existed as a human baby.

This verse is often used in support of the trinity doctrine because of the word ‘equal’. But if you are equal to something it means that you are not that thing, rather you are like that thing. This scripture is also very clear about the following: The Father is God and Jesus is Lord and that God exalted Jesus to the highest place.

A closer look at verse 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Now I am not sure if Jesus was exalted higher than he was before he came to this world or whether he was exalted to the exact position that he had before. But if we look at John 17:5 again we can see that Jesus asked to return to his former glory.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

The above verse is clear about Christ’s pre-existence in glory before the world began. The next verse also confirms that Jesus pre-existed in Heaven.

John 3:12-15
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

Ezekiel 8:1-3
1 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign LORD came upon me there.
2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal.
3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.

This verse is interesting in the sense that the description is very similar to the description of Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:12-18,

12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,” dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.
14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Have a look at the next verse. 1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Now the word head in the Greek is ‘kephale’ which can mean head, source or master. Now if we notice the order in a time sense, we have to admit that God is the first as he is the only one who has existed for all eternity with no beginning. We also know from scripture that the man came first and the woman came from the man. So that part is correct if we use a timeline. That just leaves Christ. Did he come between God and Man. I think so, as I believe that all things came from him and this opinion does fit perfectly into this model in a time sense at least. Anyway the word Christ here is ‘Christos’ which means “anointed”. So the anointed is the head of Man.
God > Christ > Man > Woman

If God created all things for his Son and his Son was the channel for that creation to come into being, then we can only assume that Christ existed at this point. As Genesis says: Let us make Man in our image. God was talking to Christ at this point and we know that Christ is the image of God and we are the image of Christ. Therefore the image of the image of God (man) is still the image of God. But Christ is the original and first image and we can only assume again that that image existed before the image of the image. A bit like a mirror that reflects a mirror, the original mirror has to exist in order to reflect the second mirror.

So we know that Christ preexisted before creation and now we will look at some more scriptures that show that he was born before creation itself?

Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

The above verse is quite clear that ALL things were created by or through Jesus.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So again, there is nothing that was made that didn’t involve Jesus/The Word being there. Only the Father and Son were not made. God has always existed and the Son was born from God before the creation of the universe, before anything was made. The next verse describes clearly who/what was the first of God’s works.

Proverbs 8:22-30
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,

This verse is talking about Wisdom, whom many believe is Christ. This scriptures compliments other scriptures that that teach that Jesus was given birth by God and then created all THINGS though him.

So from this verse we can see the following points.

Wisdom was brought forth as the first of Gods works.
Wisdom was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
Wisdom was given birth before creation.
Wisdom was the craftsman at his side and rejoiced in his presence before creation.
Some say that Wisdom isn’t Christ, rather this is just wisdom in a conceptual sense and it is true that wisdom is being spoken of in that way. But from verse 22 onward it changes tempo. With terms like I was given birth, I was the craftsman at his side and I was filled with delight, we have to admit that it seems to be talking about a person. Now have a look at the following verses:

1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV)
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Let’s look at some other concepts that Jesus personifies:

Jesus is the Truth. Yet truth is also a concept.
Jesus is the Way. Yet the way is also a concept.
Jesus is the Life. Yet life can also be a concept.
Now look at the following mystery:

1 Corinthians 2:6-9
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written:
“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him”

Ephesians 3:8-10
8 Although I am less than the least of all God’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,

Perhaps another scripture alluding to Jesus being the Wisdom of God.

Finally I leave you with the following OT scripture that suggests that God had a Son before the birth Of Jesus Christ on earth.

Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!

This topic contains 518 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by  GeneBalthrop 2 weeks, 3 days ago.

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  • #804575
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Terricca…….If Jesus was not a son of man then why did he say he was over and over about 80 times? Produce one scripture thatshows any activity of JESUS BEFORE HIS BERTH ON THIS EARTH. Tell us why did not Gabriel not know who he was if he had preexisted, instead he said, that holy thing in you “would” be called the son of God. HE DID NOT SAY HE “ALREADY WAS” THE SON OF GOD, BUT HE “WOULD” BE CALLED. That is a future tense expression, meaning it was not a past tense, so JESUS could not have had a past existence as a son of GOD.

    There are tons of scriptures that disprove JESUS preexisted his berth on this earth. But if you reject them and only focus on scriptures that can be taken different ways and have a preconviction about his prexistence, how can you be objective reguarding this subject.

    Terricca Satan want you and all of us to believe JESUS IS A GOD and PREXISTED his berth on earth , he want desperately to make Jesus appear different the we are. So he created the “DOCTRINE OF SEPERATION” CHANGING JESUS’S IDENITY FROM OURS SO WE WILL NOT TRULY BELIEVE JESUS WAS A TRULY HUMAN BEING. It changes our perception and our identification with him.

    If you could only understand, 2 TH 2, IS TALKING ABOUT A “LIE” THAT CREATES A FALSE “IMAGE” OF JESUS BEING A GOD, AND SITTING IN THE TEMPLE GOD BEING DESPLAYED AS A GOD, AND WORSHIPED AS A GOD, WHICH CHANGES THE “IMAGE” OF HIM FROM A HUMAN BEING INTO “A MAN OF SIN”.

    Go back a reread 2Ths2 and put Jesus there as what Paul was talking about and you can see that the “LIE” IS ABOUT JESUS . THIS WHOLE CONCEPT ABOUT JESUS PREEXISTING AND BEING A GOD, IS A “LIE” CREATED BY SATAN HIMSELF TO DECIEVE PEOPLE ABOUT WHO JESUS ACTUALL IS, IT HAS DECIEVED ALL CHRISTANITY. IT WAS DESIGNED TO MOVE JESUS AWAY FROM HIS HUMAN ROOTS AND CAUSE PEOPLE TO THINK THEY COULD NEVER BE EXACTLY LIKE HIM, BY MOVING HOW WE PERCIEVE HIM AWAY FROM OURSELVES, IT IS A “LIE” BROUGHT ON BY SATAN HIMSELF.

    IF YOU OR ANYONE ELSE DO NOT SEE JESUS AS A HUMAN BEING WHO CAME INTO EXISTENCE AT HIS BERTH ON THIS EARTH , YOU SIMPLY DO NOT SEE THE REAL JESUS, AND HAVE BOUGHT INTO THE BIGGEST LIE EVER TOLD. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours. ……………gene

    #804577
     Danny Dabbs 
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    Gene….I agree Jesus became 100% man but he was with his God and Father before becoming a human being. Can’t you see? Peace to you!

    #804579
     kerwin 
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    Danny Dabbs,

    I do not believe he did preexist his conception as he was conceived in Mary, as of the body. There is a First Century argument that human souls preexist their conception. I again do not think his soul preexisted his conception but my lack of knowledge on that issue means I am not certain.

    #804580
     kerwin 
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    Terrarica,

    Here is as summary and/or paraphrase of the words Peter spoke to those who had not known Christ as written in the New English Translation.

    Acts 2:22-36New English Translation (NET Bible)

    22 “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man clearly attested to you by God with powerful deeds, wonders, and miraculous signs that God performed among you through him, just as you yourselves know— 23 this man, who was handed over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you executed by nailing him to a cross at the hands of Gentiles. 24 But God raised him up, having released him from the pains of death, because it was not possible for him to be held in its power. 25 For David says about him,

    ‘I saw the Lord always in front of me,
    for he is at my right hand so that I will not be shaken.
    26
    Therefore my heart was glad and my tongue rejoiced;
    my body also will live in hope,
    27
    because you will not leave my soul in Hades,
    nor permit your Holy One to experience decay.
    28
    You have made known to me the paths of life;
    you will make me full of joy with your presence.’

    29 “Brothers, I can speak confidently to you about our forefather David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 So then, because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants on his throne, 31 David by foreseeing this spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did his body experience decay. 32 This Jesus God raised up, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 So then, exalted to the right hand of God, and having received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father, he has poured out what you both see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend into heaven, but he himself says,

    ‘The Lord said to my lord,
    “Sit at my right hand
    35
    until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”’

    36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know beyond a doubt that God has made this Jesus whom you crucified both Lord and Christ.”

    You will find that among the many point Peter makes that day is 1) Jesus is a human being and 2) Jesus is a decedent of King David. The second point eliminates his body preexisting his conception and the first point eliminates him being any thing but a human being.

    He did not mention that Jesus was chief son of God or the chief son of humanity but both those titles are inherent in being the Christ, which he did mention.

    #804581
     Danny Dabbs 
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    Thank You. Kerwin,

    I think John 3:13 is very clear. “No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven—the Son of Man.” (HCSB)

    What do you think?

    Peace to you!

    Danny

    #804582
     kerwin 
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    Terrarica,

    for a real man comes from a women and a man connection

    This point denies the power of God as well as being untrue.

    It is untrue as in the case of identical twins the child of “twin” is formed through mitosis and not through the fusion of a male and a female gamete.

    Both the point and counterpoint are vain because they deny the power of God.

    To know when John the Baptist declared “For I tell you that God can raise up children for Abraham from these stones” that he spoke truth is a sign of faith in the power of God.

    The angel told Mary that Jesus would be conceived in her. The word conceived is always the start of something though for political and other reasons it has been changed in dictionaries to a slightly later time when speaking of women conceiving. After all no one wants to say a petri dish conceived a child even though it is technically true in some cases. To return to my point the angel essentially stated the holy thing will begin to exist inside your body and you are to name him Jesus.

    In Romans 1:3 we are taught that in regards to his body Jesus was made from the Seed of David. That matches up with Peter’s claim on Pentecost that Jesus is a descendant of King David.

    #804583
     kerwin 
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    Danny Dabbs,

    The context is Jesus speaking to Nicodemus at a time before he physically ascended to heaven. That context rules out a physical ascension and so leaves a Spiritual ascension. Jesus states he is in his Father and our Father, whom he calls God, and the Father of us all is in him. God is in heaven so in order for Jesus to be in him there must have been a Spiritual ascension. Believers do not Spiritually ascend to heaven until they enter the new covenant and that was first accomplished on Pentecost.

    John 3:13New International Version (NIV)

    13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[a]
    Footnotes:

    John 3:13 Some manuscripts Man, who is in heaven

    I tend to think those manuscripts with the alternative text “who is in heaven” are correct as it better expresses the idea of God descending to live in Jesus by the Holy Spirit and Jesus ascending to sit with God on his throne through the same Spirit.

    #804584
     terraricca 
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    kerwin

    I tend to think those manuscripts with the alternative text “who is in heaven” are correct as it better expresses the idea of God descending to live in Jesus by the Holy Spirit and Jesus ascending to sit with God on his throne through the same Spirit.

    ———————————————————-
    this is trinitarian and bias at best first God almighty never came down to earth NEVER, the son did for the purpose explained in scriptures ,God does not live personally in anyone but his laws/wisdom/will/holiness/righteousness/truth/ …. does

    so you are wrong and rejecting the son of God that came down from heaven

    #804587
     kerwin 
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    Terrarica,

    God is all present but the center of his power is in heaven.

    Psalm 139:7-8English Standard Version (ESV)

    7
    Where shall I go from your Spirit?
    Or where shall I flee from your presence?
    8
    If I ascend to heaven, you are there!
    If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!

    Nevertheless, you should know that believers that are immersed in the name of Jesus Christ are seated with him in heaven even as they are physically on earth, (Ephesians 2:6)

    You also should know that God dwells in them through his Spirit.(1 Corinthians 3:16)

    I simply apply these passages to Jesus and it explains the words of John 3:13.

    #804588
     kerwin 
    Participant
    • Topics started 144
    • Total replies 17,364

    Terrarica,

    God does not live personally in anyone but his laws/wisdom/will/holiness/righteousness/truth/ …. does

    I missed these words until I reread your post.

    The same Spirit he walks according to lives in those that believe as a teacher.

    #804590
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 67,969

    Hi,

    The dogma of preexistence is a way those who do not know the Word made flesh rationalise truth.

    The Word was with God before Jesus was conceived .

     

    Of course the Word was not a being but the Spirit of Christ

     

     

    #804591
     terraricca 
    Participant
    • Topics started 67
    • Total replies 28,224

    Nick

    thanks for your opinion but opinions do not make scriptures ; you have still to get rid of your man made stories and start to believe what scriptures says ,

    where in scriptures does it says that the “word of God ” was the “spirit of Christ “?

    I know that the prophecies are the spirit of Christ Rev 19;. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

    understand that all prophecies testify of Jesus Christ , but not of the “WORD of GOD”

    #804592
     terraricca 
    Participant
    • Topics started 67
    • Total replies 28,224

    K

    God is all present but the center of his power is in heaven.

    God himself does not look at you but his angels are reporting you to him ,

    and yes there is no place that God would not be made aware of ;

    Job 1:6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.
    Job 1:7 The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
    Satan answered the LORD, “From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it.”

    MT 18:10 “See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven

    it is the angels that protect us from arm by the wicked , just has it is the devil angels that put stumbling blocks in front of us

    #804597
     AndrewAD 
    Participant
    • Topics started 1
    • Total replies 746

    It all appears as to whether one believes the later revelations. Luke projects what he thinks was early/primitive belief.

    But as far as Holy Scripture goes it clearly proclaims the pre-existent Christ. For what of this verse from Hebrews as pertaining to Christ’s priesthood and sacrifice

    Hebrews 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

    Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

    This shows the authors belief in the pre existense of Christ for how could he have suffered from the beginning of the world if he did not exist?

    #804603
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 67,969

    Hi,

    You need to know Christ or you will never recognise him in his brothers.

    Of course the Spirit of Christ is not divided but unites those in him with the Father.

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