• Togel replied to the topic Revelation 1:8 in the forum Truth or Tradition 1 month, 2 weeks ago

    T8,

    It’s been very long… been very busy with projects, and evangelizing the Moslems… you know what? Debating with them does not feel too much different from debating with you! They like to use Bible verses that you use, to prove that Jesus is not God. LOL!

    I don’t remember quite much the plot of our discussion, but what I remember is that…[Read more]

  • Togel replied to the topic Revelation 1:8 in the forum Truth or Tradition 3 months, 1 week ago

    T8,

    You are totally missing the point!

    Jesus knew exactly that the God of Israel had been seen by people; He had visited Abraham in human form, He had been seen by Moses (Moses saw God’s back) and Israeli elders, and seen by Isaiah on His throne with the seraphim and cherubim around. Therefore, when John wrote “no one has seen God”, Jesus…[Read more]

  • Togel replied to the topic Revelation 1:8 in the forum Truth or Tradition 3 months, 1 week ago

    T8,

    You are totally missing the point!

    Jesus knew exactly that the God of Israel had been seen by people; He had visited Abraham in human form, He had been seen by Moses (Moses saw God’s back) and Israeli elders, and seen by Isaiah on His throne with the seraphim and cherubim around. Therefore, when John wrote “no one has seen God”, Jesus…[Read more]

  • Togel replied to the topic Revelation 1:8 in the forum Truth or Tradition 3 months, 1 week ago

    T8,

    You are totally missing the point!

    Jesus knew exactly that the God of Israel had been seen by people; He had visited Abraham in human form, He had been seen by Moses (Moses saw God’s back) and Israeli elders, and seen by Isaiah on His throne with the seraphims and cherubim around. Therefore, when John wrote “no one has seen God”, Jesus…[Read more]

  • Togel replied to the topic Revelation 1:8 in the forum Truth or Tradition 3 months, 1 week ago

    T8,

    You are totally missing the point!

    Jesus knew exactly that the God of Israel had been seen by people; He had visited Abraham in human form, He had been seen by Moses (Moses saw God’s back) and Israeli elders, and seen by Isaiah on His throne with the seraphims and cherubim around. Therefore, when John wrote “no one has seen God”, Jesus…[Read more]

  • Togel replied to the topic Revelation 1:8 in the forum Truth or Tradition 3 months, 1 week ago

    T8,

    I do not disagree with the Scripture or their writers, but I disagree with YOUR INTERPRETATION of their writings.

    When John writes that no one has seen God, John meant to say that none has seen the Father. Jesus explains this Himself:

    John 6:46 “Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.

    So, I…[Read more]

  • Togel replied to the topic Revelation 1:8 in the forum Truth or Tradition 3 months, 1 week ago

    T8,

    You said:

    In the Old Testament, people saw YHWH when they saw the angel of the LORD.

    ==========

    Sorry Brother, I think your statement above does not represent what is written in Genesis 18, Exodus 24, and Isaiah. It is clearly written there that Abraham, Moses, and Isaiah saw GOD (YHWH or YHVH, the Elohim of Israel). These verses are…[Read more]

  • Togel replied to the topic Revelation 1:8 in the forum Truth or Tradition 3 months, 1 week ago

    T8,

    You said:

    In the Old Testament, people saw YHWH when they saw the angel of the LORD.

    ==========

    Sorry Brother, I think your statement above does not represent what is written in Genesis 18, Exodus 24, and Isaiah. It is clearly written there that Abraham, Moses, and Isaiah saw GOD (YHWH or YHVH, the Elohim of Israel). These verses are…[Read more]

  • Togel replied to the topic Revelation 1:8 in the forum Truth or Tradition 3 months, 4 weeks ago

    T8,

    Great! Finally you are willing to address this, instead of just ignoring this. I appreciate your willingness to do this.

    I see that your reasoning is very close to the truth, but I think you are still missing a few points simply because you are tied to your theology.

    When faced with such opposing/contradictory information from the…[Read more]

  • Togel replied to the topic Revelation 1:8 in the forum Truth or Tradition 3 months, 4 weeks ago

    T8,

    You said:

    If 5+3=8, then know that 5 and 3 are not 8 themselves. If a football team is equal to another, then by reason of that, it is not the same team, but two different teams.

    ===============

    Trinitarians are not just saying that Jesus is the Father. Modalists do say that.

    We say that Jesus is the Father and is NOT the Father.

    You say…[Read more]

  • Togel replied to the topic Revelation 1:8 in the forum Truth or Tradition 3 months, 4 weeks ago

    T8,

    And talking about LIGHT, I read these verses:

    Revelation 21:22-23

    22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
    23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.

    Lord God Almithty and the Lamb are its temple….

    God…[Read more]

  • Togel replied to the topic Revelation 1:8 in the forum Truth or Tradition 3 months, 4 weeks ago

    T8,

    And talking about LIGHT, I read these verses:

    Revelation 21:22-23

    22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
    23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.

    Lord God Almithty and the Lamb are its temple….

    God…[Read more]

  • Togel replied to the topic Revelation 1:8 in the forum Truth or Tradition 3 months, 4 weeks ago

    T8,

    you said:

    The Father is greater than the Son. Full stop.

    =====

    Why full stop? Why in other verses you can twist the meaning in any way you like but here full stop? This is clearly biased.

    REad this:

    Joh 14:12  “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will…[Read more]

  • Togel replied to the topic Revelation 1:8 in the forum Truth or Tradition 3 months, 4 weeks ago

    T8,

    No, I meant Hebrew 1:9 Heb 1:9  You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

    Try replacing both Gods with Father, and you get a failure.

    Verse 10 also EXPLICITLY states that the Father says to the Son that the Son laid the foundation of the…[Read more]

  • Togel replied to the topic Revelation 1:8 in the forum Truth or Tradition 3 months, 4 weeks ago

    T8,

    You said: You are kidding me. Are you saying that the three men are the Trinity?

    =====

    You better read the verses yourself:

    Genesis 18:

    1  Then the LORD (YHWH) appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.
    2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were s…[Read more]

  • Togel replied to the topic Revelation 1:8 in the forum Truth or Tradition 3 months, 4 weeks ago

    T8,

    You said: You are kidding me. Are you saying that the three men are the Trinity?

    =====

    You better read the verses yourself:

    Genesis 18:

    1  Then the LORD (YHWH) appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.
    2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were s…[Read more]

  • Togel replied to the topic Revelation 1:8 in the forum Truth or Tradition 4 months ago

    T8,

    The evidence for Trinitarians are ample; that Jesus is claiming equality with God is also evident in the Bible. You are just trying to ignore them and explain away those statements. Jesus says that He and the Father are one is not the only evidence. Jesus will come as the Judge at the end time, while we know from the Old Testament that God is…[Read more]

  • Togel replied to the topic Revelation 1:8 in the forum Truth or Tradition 4 months ago

    T8,

    Your explanation may contain some truth, but in these Revelation verses, you are clearly putting words into Jesus mouth!!

    Lord God says I am the Alpha and the Omega, and Jesus says I am the Alpha and the Omega.

    But you give different meanings to that exactly the same name! Why? Because you have your own theology binding you! Anyone who…[Read more]

  • Togel replied to the topic Revelation 1:8 in the forum Truth or Tradition 4 months ago

    T8,

    You are asking for verses where God refers Not to the Father but the Most High? I have already shoved you the verses many times: Genesis 18, Exodus 24, Isaiah 6.  (I know these are not “theos” but essentially the same, just different language).

    Need more?

    John 1:1 also does not work: and the Word was God.

    Also the Hebrew verse, Heb 1:9  Y…[Read more]

  • Togel replied to the topic Revelation 1:8 in the forum Truth or Tradition 4 months ago

    T8,

    So, from those Revelation verses that I quoted, you should already be able to see that The Father says that He is the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, The Beginning and the End, and then in latter verses Jesus also uses this title for Himself.

    So, how can you apply diffrent meanings to those names when used by the Father and when…[Read more]

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