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  • #946252
    Jodi
    Participant

    Good Morning Berean,

    Though I did reply to you with a long post on FEBRUARY 28, 2024 AT 4:51 AM#946084

    I figured I would reply again to what you said below and condense my position.

    YOU:

    The WORD was not  the GOD(THE FATHER)

    THE Word was WITH THE GOD

    AND THE WORD WAS GOD

    ME: 

    Reading John 1:1-2 I see there are 2 different beginnings being referred to and as you move through the chapter the content directly supports exactly that.

    There are a number of scriptures throughout the NT that speak to Jesus’s anointing of the Spirit and him being sent to preach God’s word through the Spirit dwelling in him as a BEGINNING.

    John 1:1 is speaking to the BEGINNING of the gospel, to which those who believe are saved.

    Berean, some facts for you to ponder,

    The WORD of God (prophecy) was that He would give His Spirit to abode in a Son of Man who He would then send out to preach the gospel and fulfill God’s covenant. God would hold his hand and keep him, not allowing him to fail in that all God commands of him.

    The WORD of God (prophecy) was that He would give mankind a new heart and place His Spirit in them and cause them to walk in all His ways.

    The WORD of God that Jesus preached was that a man must be born of the Spirit to enter into the kingdom of God.

    The WORD of God that Jesus preached was that we would be baptized as he was baptized and that we would drink of the cup that he drinks of, but to sit on the right or left of Jesus in the kingdom is up to the Father.

    Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set* the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

    You see Berean, that which occurred to Jesus at the river Jordan and again when he rose from the dead, receiving “the PROMISED Spirit”/ “on this day I have begotten thee” is what we are promised as well and this all was God’s WORD from the beginning and is the reason God had created all things in the first place. We are heirs of God, JOINT HEIRS with the ANOINTED SON OF MAN. 

    The WORD is the PROMISED SPIRIT such was in the beginning with God when He created all things.

    This WORD was fulfilled in Jesus of Nazareth which was the beginning of the WORD being preached, the beginning of the LIGHT being sent. The WORDS that Jesus spoke “they were Spirit and they were life”, those that believed in him, that he was the fulfillment of Isaiah 42, 61, 53, the fulfillment of the WORD and believed on his WORD that one could drink of the cup that he drinks of and be born of the Spirit and enter into God’s kingdom, would receive that very promise, they too would become Sons of God.

    Berean “the WORD” is not a pre-existing Jesus existing before and speaking creation into existence. “The WORD” is God’s Spirit with the promise that it will abode in man.

    When you think of the message of the entire bible, when you think of the message of the gospel and Jesus’s clear words it’s all about how God promised eternal life even before the world began and to obtain eternal life you must have God’s Spirit dwelling in you, as the fruit thereof is in all goodness righteousness and truth, without the Spirit we are dead.

    #946184
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    Because of Corinth’s actions regarding false apostles, to which Paul specifically outlined to them, Paul let’s them know that he now does not want their funds but he still wants to continue serving them. Paul let’s them know that this makes him feel like he is robbing other churches, as he needs the funds that other churches have supplied in order to serve Corinth.

    When we know for a fact when reading the word “robbed” that Paul hadn’t actually robbed anyone, we know the contextCorinth is making Paul FEEL LIKE he is robbing other churches.

    If you were a church that gave to support a ministry and knew your minister bragged about your giving where it inspired other churches to give, that would feel good.

    If you are now a church where your minister is upset with you for putting up with false apostles, so much so that he now doesn’t want to even touch your money under these circumstances, that should make you feel bad, which you deserve.

    If your minister still wants to serve you but points out to you that he must use the funds from other churches now to do so, that should also make you feel bad. Because of your actions your minister feels like he’s robbing from other churches in order to serve you, that should make you feel bad, which you deserve.

    Providing the clear circumstances and situation gained from the text does not equate to dancing around DT, ignoring it actually does.

     

    #946170
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hey there DesireTruth,

    YOU: Time to move on; speak on Gal 5:1-12 and how the Jewish male is suppose to accept the Jesus as Paul teaches circumcision doesn’t matter; and relate that to Gen 17:1-14. My assessment of Paul stands; he’s a liar, manipulator, and deceiver; and he’s real good!

    ME: How about we relate it to not only Genesis 17 but additional OT passages!

    Genesis 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. 11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant between me and you.

    God’s covenant with Abraham was a promise that He would give to Abraham and his seed an eternal possession of all the land of Canaan and He would be their God. God set Abraham and his seed apart, they would be for a people unto Himself and have a physical reminder of this covenant, circumcision.

    God’s covenant with Israel,

    Exodus 19: 5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

    Exodus 20 begins with the 10 commandments and other specific commands follow.

    Deuteronomy 11 speaks to blessing or cursing dependent upon obedience where preceding chapters speak of commandments and examples of blessings and cursing.

    Below we read that the covenant with Israel is held within His covenant with Abraham,

    Deuteronomy 29:9 Keep therefore the words of this covenant, and do them, that ye may prosper in all that ye do. 10 Ye stand this day all of you before the LORD your God; your captains of your tribes, your elders, and your officers, with all the men of Israel, 11 Your little ones, your wives, and thy stranger that is in thy camp, from the hewer of thy wood unto the drawer of thy water: 12 That thou shouldest enter into covenant with the LORD thy God, and into his oath, which the LORD thy God maketh with thee this day: 13 That he may establish thee to day for a people unto himself, and that he may be unto thee a God, as he hath said unto thee, and as he hath sworn unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.

    So we have God’s covenant with Abraham where God has set Israel apart where he will be their God, they will be a people unto Himself, he will make nations and kings from Abraham’s seed and give his seed an everlasting possession of land. Circumcision is a physical reminder, a token of this covenant. In keeping with this covenant, God brings forth another covenant, He is their God through directing them in the way that they should go, giving them laws, where if they obey they are blessed but if they disobey they are cursed. Israel is to cut themselves off from the world and have no other gods but the true God YHVH, love him with all their hearts and obey His commandments.

    As we read from OT passages below, we see that physical circumcision means absolutely nothing if they turn to idolatry, if they disobey God, however there is but another kind of circumcision that matters.

    Jeremiah 4:1 If thou wilt return, O Israel, saith the LORD, return unto me: and if thou wilt put away thine abominations out of my sight, then shalt thou not remove. 2 And thou shalt swear, The LORD liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory. 3 For thus saith the LORD to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns. 4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

    Jeremiah 9: 23 Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: 24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD. 25 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will punish all them which are circumcised with the uncircumcised. 26 Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart.

    Circumcision amounts to absolutely NOTHING, it is circumcision of your heart that counts.

    Deut 10: 15 Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day. 16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. 17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

    Deut 30: 1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: 5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. 6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. 7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee. 8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.

    Ezekiel 36: 24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

    DT, you see the law could not make Israel righteous, it proved that man can do nothing good of himself. Even in God giving rewards and punishments they were not able to keep the law. Look at the prophecy from Deuteronomy 30! After all the blessings and the curses have been given to Israel and they are scattered among the nations where God drove them away, they will call it all to mind, other passages speak to their repentance, and then God will call them back to the land which He promised them and there He will be their God and they will be His people, He will circumcise their hearts, He will give them a new heart and He will put His Spirit in them and cause them to obey all of His commandments, the laws will be written in their hearts through the works of God’s Spirit dwelling within.

    DT, circumcision IS ONLY A PHYSICAL token to the covenant, a Jew who sins there circumcision means absolutely nothing, it is the circumcision of the heart that matters.

    Romans 2: 23 You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24 As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.” 25 Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. 26 So then, if those who are not circumcised keep the law’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? 27 The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker. 28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.

    The OT clearly teaches what Paul stated above!

    Galatians 5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. 2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

    The OT clearly teaches that it is circumcision of the heart that counts. The OT clearly teaches that God’s promise is to give us a new heart and put His Spirit within us whereby such He causes us to be able to walk in all his ways. This is what Paul also teaches, he is no liar. 

    God put His Spirit in Jesus and it did indeed prove his righteousness where he then could not be held to the penalty of death. Jesus is proof of God’s working Spirit in a human being. Because of this proof we are set free from eternal death, as what God can accomplish in one human, He can accomplish in all.  We are promised the Spirit where we too will walk in righteousness, being a child of God, just as Jesus Christ, being fully led by Spirit of God. Our belief in Jesus Christ and faith in God is held in this.

    #946166
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU: I could careless about everything else you are bringing into this to justify Paul’s wording; his choice of wording for being paid is beyond poor; it’s insulting, to say you “robbed” those who paid you for your teachings!

    ME: You say you could care less about everything else, but you yourself said, “the question is why would he refuse payment from Corinth”, so make up your mind, one minute you care and the next minute you could care less.

    Very convenient for you DT to not care at all about the situation provided in the text that gives direct understanding as to why Paul would tell Corinth, “I robbed other churches receiving support from them to serve you”. Further, it’s absolute absurdity to not only say you don’t care but think your position is legitimate, basing your opinion of Paul according to how you feel about a word that he used.

    I speak to the below to defend the truth for others to see, you can stick to your bubble of feelings.

    Considering the situation,

    Paul had found Corinth putting up with boasting false apostles who disguise themselves as ministers of light, where Corinth is giving them payment to the avail of being led astray. Paul is afraid for them and frustrated with them.

    Paul speaks to Corinth calling into question their sincerity and devotion to Christ and the gospel and Paul NOW at this time, unlike before, does not want their financial support and he gives two very honorable reasons as to why. However, this does equate to something unfortunate which Paul wants Corinth to be sure to know. Corinth had been given the goal by Paul the equality of giving among the churches, specifically, “your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need.” In light of Corinth’s actions causing Paul to not want their financial support, he tells them as much and what that equates to, it’s like he’s robbing from other churches to serve them, as it breaks the goal that Paul had aspired Corinth to. I say, “it’s like he’s robbing” because we know that he has not literally robbed anyone, so that is the OBVIOUS context one should read it in.  Paul even lets Corinth know specifically who gave so that he could serve them, the brothers who came from Macedonia.

    Corinth has put Paul into this position and they should feel guilty about it and Paul goes on to tell them he will keep doing so as to not give opportunity for the false apostles to feel equal to him and the other true apostles. He goes further in the next chapter to let them know that he does not want their possessions but them. Paul had told them prior to give out of love, which their sincere devotion has been tainted by their giving to false apostles. Honorable of Paul to not take Corinth’s payment in these circumstances even though it causes a burden to other churches as the equality is lost, where it feels like robbing the other churches. Totally appropriate for Paul to point this out to Corinth. 

    YOU: I could careless about everything else you are bringing into this to justify Paul’s wording.

    ME: “Everything else”, by that you mean, the SURROUNDING  TEXT and the circumstances therein, I am directly giving to provide CONTEXT.

    YOU: if you paid any mind to the surrounding text and circumstances therein. This is called “context”, something I say all the time.

    DT, looks like you need to follow your own advice or be left as a hypocrite.

    #946165
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hey there DT.

    YOU: I Cor 15:9 “For I am the least of the apostles, who is not worthy to be called an apostle,” and then look at II Cor 11:5 “For I consider myself not at all inferior to those “super-apostles.” You don’t consider this egotistical?

    ME: The “super apostles” Paul speaks to in chapter 11 he clearly identifies as FALSE apostles. He’s NOT speaking about his fellow true apostles in verse 5.

    3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. 5 I do not think I am in the least inferior to those “super-apostles.”..12 And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ.

    I Cor 15:9 “For I am the least of the apostles, who is not worthy to be called an apostle,”  – Paul is humble here DT. 

    2 Cor 11:5 I do not think I am in the least inferior to those “super-apostles.” 6 I may indeed be untrained as a speaker, but I do have knowledge. We have made this perfectly clear to you in every way.   – yah what an ego, Paul compares his speaking ability to the false apostles-posing as ministers of light, humbly admitting he’s not the best at speaking, but makes the point that he has knowledge (what’s more important your speaking abilities or the CONTENT?). Because of Paul’s content to that which he speaks he does not see himself inferior though he admits he is inferior when it comes to the deliver of the content. 

    Nope, not at all egotistical

     

    #946160
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU: What emotion does the term “robbing” conjure in you? How does it make you feel? Would you call the term positive or negative?

    ME: Your questioning of “what emotions” conjure in me when I hear the term “robbing”, all the more tells me you aren’t at all invested in sound reasoning and the context of the situation. We are to find truth and understanding through the emotions that words give to us?.. what total nonsense! When leading up to verse 8, we already know full well Paul wasn’t robbing anyone and the very next verse also tells us that, so what emotions should be stirred up when we know Paul wasn’t literally robbing anyone DT, or are we supposed to forget all that and turn instead and define Paul’s heart through the emotions stirred up by a word that he used? This is completely absurd!

    YOU: The question is why would he refuse payment from Corinth, but is okay being paid by other churches and then have to make a huge point of it? Why not just remain silent; instead he goes to great length to let them know all about his “humility” and not accepting payment from them. EGO?!?

    ME: Exactly, why would he refuse payment, but FULL STOP, you are leaving out the very crucial part of, WHY NOW, why now after he had asked and received payment from them before? We aren’t left to guess, Paul tells us exactly why which then tells you why Paul said what he said in verse 8 and why he continues to make a point that he is not going to ask them to be paid. 

    Paul is upset, not only about Corinth’s sins and them being led astray by false apostles but he is also upset that they are putting up with these false apostles who are taking advantage of them, who boast about getting paid. Paul then boasts, not about how well off he is in payments, but in how he has been willing to put his life in danger for the sake of spreading the gospel and tells them all the trials and tribulations he has been through thus far. Paul boasts about that which reflects his sincere and strong devotion to Christ and spreading the gospel.  Now that Paul knows that Corinth is giving money to deceiving super apostles he NOW doesn’t want their money, he doesn’t want to be lumped in with them and he wants to show Corinth that his devotion is to them, not to their money, he doesn’t want their possessions he wants them.  

     

    #946157
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hey there DT,

    This is a sticking point to me because you assert your position completely ignoring the surrounding text and the circumstances therein.

    As you yourself have said, churches paid for Paul to travel to serve other churches giving the gospel. Churches also gave charity to support the needs of other churches and for Paul to also give supplies to the poor.

    Paul asked and received from all churches, including Corinth and he spoke to Corinth about equality of giving among the churches and to the giving out of love.

    Why would Paul tell Corinth, “I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you.”?

    You seriously don’t get that Corinth has fallen into some serious problems and Paul is upset about it? What part of Paul saying, “I’m AFRAID” screams at you that Paul is some egotistical jerk?

    11:3 I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

    Paul’s goal was the equality of giving among the churches and giving out of love, giving out of sincere and pure devotion. Paul found out that they were supporting false apostles and that they were committing various sins and he was AFRAID that their sincerity and devotion had been led astray .

    Paul in his apparently big ego, was upset with Corinth and now he did not want their possessions, they certainly by all appearances wouldn’t be giving out of devotion or love, Paul at this point just wanted them.  Paul wanted to preach the gospel to them and lead them back, you know, for the sake of his big ego, not at all for his love of the brethren or for the love of the truth or anything like that. Paul certainly didn’t want his preaching of the gospel to mirror the same terms of the false apostles, which is another direct reason given by Paul.

    In this context Paul tells Corinth, who have gone whoring and sinning, that he’s robbing from other churches to serve them by not asking them for anything. DT, you think that they forgot that Paul asked them to give before? You think they forgot Paul said his goal was for churches to give equally and to give out of love? He’s trying to make them feel guilty, this should be obvious to you if you paid any mind to the surrounding text and circumstances therein. 

    #946153
    Jodi
    Participant

    DT,

    Let each accusation you have against Paul have sound scriptural proof.

    YOU: Who are we to love first? This statement is a false teaching, you can’t possibly know how to love your neighbor without loving God first. So it’s not one command as Paul says; there are two and there’s a reason why the first command of loving God is first. How are we suppose to love God? As John says, “this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome.” What are Gods’ commands?

    ME:

    Paul said, “For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.”

    Let’s get this straight, FACT from the given text right in front of you, Paul in the above passage DOES NOT say there is ONE commandment, he says all the law is fulfilled in loving thy neighbor as thyself”.

    “your work and labor of love, which ye have shewed toward HIS NAME”.

    “the things which God has prepared FOR THEM THAT LOVE HIM”.

    “God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them.

    DO ALL TO THE GLORY OF GOD”

    DT, Paul is VERY CLEAR, you don’t receive what God has prepared without love for Him and you show your love to Him through loving your neighbor.

    According to Paul, loving your neighbor you show your love to God. What does that directly equate to DT, Loving our neighbor directly reflects the keeping of BOTH COMMANDMENTS. 

    A total lie on your part DT to say that Paul taught there is only one commandment. He is speaking of one commandment that fulfills commandments “all the law”. 

    Two commandments,

    1.Love God with all your heart and soul (loving your neighbor shows that you love God, if you say you love God but hate your neighbor you are a liar)

    2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

    Without keeping commandment #2 you are not able to fulfill commandment #1 and in fulfilling #2 you are also giving fulfillment to #1. Paul thus speaks 100% truth. 

     

     

     

    #946152
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hey there DT!

    You believe Paul is a liar a deceiver and that he even boldly states that he is a thief…, whatever else you want to accuse him of, let each accusation have sound scriptural proof. 

    YOU:

    I don’t recall ever reading such statements to other churches. The point was why did Paul unashamedly use the term “robbing” other churches (isn’t there a commandment about stealing); and by saying this, he’s admitting he’s a thief.

    ME: 

    Hoping you can respond to post #946143.

    Chapters/verses leading up to 2 Cornithians 11:8 speak of Paul having asked for and received DONATIONS from churches, INCLUDING FROM CORINTH  and the very next verse doesn’t describe thievery, but rather his brethren supplying for him what he was lacking.

    DT, are you going to continue to assert that Paul was literally robbing churches, that he wasn’t actually receiving donations from those churches?

    Do you care to give your explanation as to why Paul asked Corinth for donations but then later he did not want their donations?

    Can you speak to the fact that Paul’s GOAL WAS FOR THE EQUALITY IN GIVING AMONG THE CHURCHES, INCLUDING CORINTH and to GIVE OUT OF LOVE?

    #946150
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    I couldn’t help but notice the conversation going on between you and Carmel involving the curse given to Jeconiah. I am going to post on the “Conception” thread to speak about this and hope that you will reply there.

    #946149
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hey there DT!

    YOU: You then site I John as proof to Paul’s understanding, except Paul was gallivanting all over eastern Rome would he have received this letter John wrote? Upon further investigation we find the letter to Galatians was written around AD 48 and it’s believed John wrote his letter around AD 95 -110. Unless we have another time traveling Paul; Paul wouldn’t have been “referencing” John. Guess again!

    ME: 

    I had said, “The below verse is not from Paul but a truth to which Paul knew and is to certainly be applied to what he said in Galatians 5.

    It’s a truth that Paul knew I never said it was a truth that Paul gained from John. I have studied the chronological order of the NT books FYI.

    Are John’s words a lie?

    If not, are you arguing that they are some sort of HUGE mystery that God ONLY revealed to John and up until John gave them, all other apostles were totally in the dark?

    Your position would then be held through your own assumption and I would say a pretty ridiculous one at that.

    Romans 13:8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

    Paul also taught,

    do all to the glory of God

    your work and labor of love, which ye have shewed toward HIS NAME“.

    the things which God has prepared FOR THEM THAT LOVE HIM.

    in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time

    Luke 10:25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?” 27 He answered, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’ ; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.” 28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied.

    DT, are you arguing that Paul did NOT  teach that one must love God to inherit eternal life?

    Are you arguing that Paul’s passages do NOT tell us that we are to love our neighbor as ourselves TO THE GLORY OF GOD? 

    Paul did in fact know that which John also knew and spoke of, we read it in the below passage, 

    Hebrews 6:10 God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them.

    Paul teaches that one shows that he loves God (the first and great commandment) through loving our neighbor (the second commandment) AND LOVE FULFILLS THE LAW. 

    Think about that for a moment DT.

    The entire law then is indeed fulfilled in loving your neighbor, as loving your neighbor is the very act of showing God that you love him.

    #946143
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU: Are you claiming Paul wasn’t being paid? How was Paul able to travel all over the eastern Roman Empire, unless he received financial support.

    ME: Uh NO,  I have absolutely no clue how in me saying false apostles are getting paid somehow equates to me declaring that Paul wasn’t receiving donations so that he could travel around to spread the gospel. Beyond me how you could come to such a conclusion. Fascinating that this absurdity is where your mind went instead of the point being made about the false apostles getting paid.

    YOU: To bad you missed what I was saying. I wasn’t speaking of when “collections” were taken to help others; I was speaking of his taking “payment” from others he was “teaching” but making a point that he wasn’t going to burden those in Corinth with “payment”, even though it was his “right” to do so. And boy did he let them know that, such humility. Did he ever say this to any other church? I don’t recall ever reading such statements to other churches. The point was why did Paul unashamedly use the term “robbing” other churches (isn’t there a commandment about stealing); and by saying this, he’s admitting he’s a thief. He wouldn’t take it from Corinth, but had no problem taking it from others. And you have no problem with it!??! To each their own.

    ME: I did not miss at all what you are saying, you just want to be very narrow minded with one passage it most now certainly seems and let your imagination provide meaning ignoring the surrounding context. I thought the verses I supplied would suffice, that it wouldn’t be needed to have to spell everything out for you.

    8 I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you. 9 And when I was with you and needed something, I was not a burden to anyone, for the brothers who came from Macedonia supplied what I needed. I have kept myself from being a burden to you in any way, and will continue to do so.10 As surely as the truth of Christ is in me, nobody in the regions of Achaia will stop this boasting of mine. 11 Why? Because I do not love you? God knows I do! 12 And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ.

    2 Cor 8:13 Our desire is not that others might be relieved while you are hard pressed, but that there might be equality.14 At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. The goal is equality, 

    17 For Titus not only welcomed our appeal, but he is coming to you with much enthusiasm and on his own initiative. 18 And we are sending along with him the brother who is praised by all the churches for his service to the gospel…24 Therefore show these men the proof of your love and the reason for our pride in you, so that the churches can see it.

    2 Cor 9:. 2 For I know your eagerness to help, and I have been boasting about it to the Macedonians, telling them that since last year you in Achaia were ready to give; and your enthusiasm has stirred most of them to action.

    SOME SIMPLE FACTS FOR YOU DT!

    Paul previously asked Corinth for donations and received donations from Corinth. Paul even speaks to how their donations encouraged other churches to give.

    Pay attention here DT,

    Paul unto Corinth, “show these men the proof of your love and the reason for our pride in you, so that the churches can see it.”

    Paul unto Corinth “your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. “THE GOAL IS EQUALITY”.

    So NO robbing at all DT and the goal Paul has among the churches is equality in giving and in giving shows your love. 

    DT, can you acknowledge the simple fact that Corinth was asked to give by Paul but then Paul didn’t want their donations anymore and such had a reason behind it?

    When Paul tells Corinth that he is robbing from other churches in continuing to serve them in the context that he is not going to take their money, he is reminding them of what the goal was supposed to be, that all churches were to give equally. The focus then becomes as to WHY then he doesn’t want their money, why is he telling them that he is not holding them to the goal, where without their part in the equality it’s like the other churches are being robbed.

    Paul tells us why,

    “12 And what I do I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do.”

    “14 Now I am ready to visit you for the third time, and I will not be a burden to you, because what I want is not your possessions but you.”

    DT it’s like you have no interest in context and understanding whatsoever, and in this negligence you slander Paul making assertions that are far from the truth.  

    Paul told Corinth how he boasted about their giving to other churches and he speaks to giving out of love.

    Paul finds out that they are giving to false apostles what does that say about their love for Paul’s ministry, for their love of the church? It draws it into question.

    Not only this but Paul has found them to be committing sin in a number of ways.  Paul wants them, he wants their sincere love and commitment for the gospel, not their money. He only wants donations out of love. He is not going to work on the same terms that the false apostles do. What kind of conscience would Paul have if he took their donations knowing full well it wasn’t out of love?

    DT, are you going to continue to assert that Paul was literally robbing churches, that he wasn’t actually receiving donations from those churches?

    DT, do you care to give your explanation as to why Paul asked Corinth for donations but then later he did not want their donations?

    DT, can you speak to the fact that Paul’s GOAL WAS FOR THE EQUALITY IN GIVING AMONG THE CHURCHES, INCLUDING CORINTH and to GIVE OUT OF LOVE?

    #946124
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU:

    Read Acts 15:1-32 and Gal 2:1-10:

    Paul goes to Jerusalem over a discussion concerning what the gentiles were suppose to do and the general consensus is the gentiles where “to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals, and from blood.” This was written in a letter to the churches. Now let jump to Galatians where Paul is recounting to them his visit to this counsel in Jerusalem and focus like you have never focused before on the words of Paul in Gal 2:10. What does he tell those in Galatia he was to do…“10 They only asked us to remember the poor.” Something doesn’t match. I thought the letter included some other items the gentiles where to observe and it wasn’t to only “remember the poor.”

    Staying on this letter Paul was to take to the churches, it was said “to abstain from food polluted (sacrificed to) by idols” and Paul teaches (I Cor 8:1-8) it doesn’t matter whether or not food sacrificed to idols is consumed. This is direct conflict to what was agreed upon at the council in Jerusalem. Paul is in direct opposition to the church leaders.

    ME:

    Galatians 2:9 James, Cephas and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised. 10 All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I had been eager to do all along.

    The context is not the substance of what they should teach, but to whom they should serve and as Paul and Barnabas went out to teach to the Gentiles they were also to remember the poor.

    We see this in the below passage,

    Romans 15:24 When so ever I take my journey into Spain, I will come to you: for I trust to see you in my journey, and to be brought on my way thitherward by you, if first I be somewhat filled with your company. 25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints. 26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem. 27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things. 28 When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain.

    DT, you really want to assert the context of verse 10 has nothing to do with verse 9, certainly convenient for you to do so in attempt to slander Paul.

    As Paul travels to serve the Gentiles and James travels to serve the Jews, along their journeys they as well serve the poor, using donations from the churches to provide them with basic needs.

    Concerning 1 Corinthians 8, Paul gives us some common sense.  

    1 Corinthians 8:1 Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that “We all possess knowledge.” But knowledge puffs up while love builds up. 2 Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know. 3 But whoever loves God is known by God. 4 So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.” 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. 7 But not everyone possesses this knowledge. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat sacrificial food they think of it as having been sacrificed to a god, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. 8 But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do. 9 Be careful, however, that the exercise of your rights does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if someone with a weak conscience sees you, with all your knowledge, eating in an idol’s temple, won’t that person be emboldened to eat what is sacrificed to idols? 11 So this weak brother or sister, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12 When you sin against them in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ.

    What is Paul teaching,

    An idol is nothing at all in the world

    There is no God but one, we have one God the Father

    Not everyone has this knowledge, and some people so accustomed to eating idols they eat of it thinking of it as having been sacrificed to a god, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled.

    Food does not bring us near to God, doesn’t matter, as we are no worse if we do and no better if we don’t.

    You sin against Christ if you eat in an idols temple among those whose conscience is weak.

    13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

    1 Corinthians 10:18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. 21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord’s table, and of the table of devils.

    26 for, “The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it.” 27 If an unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28 But if someone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice,” then do not eat it, both for the sake of the one who told you and for the sake of conscience.

    Do you get the common sense here DT?

    Idol worship is a sin and therefore worshiping idols by eating meat sacrificed to these idols is a sin.

    If you are one who has knowledge that there is only one true God, you also know that idols are fake, and therefore eating the meat sacrifice to an idol is nothing, to you it is merely just eating meat.

    When someone who is being ministered to, to come out of idol worship but their conscience still is thinking that they are eating to gods because they have not yet the knowledge that there is only one true God, you do not partake of the meat with them, such would be a sin, it’s a stumbling block to those you are trying to convert.

    Paul does not condone Gentiles to eat meat sacrificed to idols in worship to those idols, it’s a sin. If Gentiles are being ministered to, being in the process of a hopeful conversion, Paul certainly would not be condoning them to go feast with the heathen that are worshipping their gods through sacrificed meat, he would be telling them to stay away, not to partake.

    #946122
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    First let me say I am very familiar with Deuteronomy 30 and I would like to connect it directly to Ezekiel 36.

    Notice the prophecy, God knows they will be given blessing and cursing, but what happens after that?

    Deuteronomy 30a;1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: 5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. 6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. 7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.

    Ezekiel 36: 24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

    Let me highlight something for you, “And I will put my Spirit within you, and CAUSE you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them”. Mind you, this is exactly what the Apostle Paul teaches us. Sounds to me though DT that you believe in your own righteousness, something Paul most certainly did not, his hope was in the promised Spirit. You have not yet come to the knowledge it seems that just as the Messiah needs the Spirit of God living in him as Isaiah tells us, so do all of us.

    You give a point to me to which I have spoken myself to others and is a point that Paul speaks to as well. I know people who don’t know God and thus His laws, but God surely knows them and has blessed them in multiple ways with His Spirit and through that Spirit they keep the law not even knowing it. On the other hand, I know people who are baptized Christians who live in all manners of sin where God’s Spirit is far from them and they do not follow the laws that they know full well of.

    Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.

    What do you suppose God’s MERCY on us entails DT? God gives His Spirit as He wills and if it were not for His Spirit given here and there upon the earth, we would be living in a world that would be nothing but wickedness 24/7.

    There is so much more to this conversation, which Paul actually gives amazing insight too. Are we not carnally minded creatures who need God’s Spirit?

    #946115
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU:

    Gal 5:14 Paul says the “whole law” was fulfilled in one word, meaning the entire law, For the whole law can be summed up in a single commandment, namely, “You must love your neighbor as yourself.” I think he missed the other part of the “law” “love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.”

    ME: I am really curious to know the direction you are under, what you put forth is it all from your own accord or are you posting from what you gained from someone else?

    So what is your point exactly, you think Paul was not for the love of God, that he didn’t teach to love God and give Him glory and honor above all else?

    2 Thess 3:5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.

    1 Corinthians 2:99 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

    Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

    1 Corinthians 8:33 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

    1 Corinthians 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

    Paul put God above all else.

    1 Timothy 1:17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

    1 Corinthians 15:24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

    1 Corinthians 2:99 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

    Hebrews 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

    The below verse is not from Paul but is a truth to which Paul knew and is to certainly be applied to what he said in Galatians 5. 

    I John 4:20 If a man say, “I love God,” and hateth his brother, he is a liar. For he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

    Yes indeed, all the law is held in loving thy neighbor because anyone who has a mind knows, that if you do not do as such, then you are not following the law of loving God either.

    #946114
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU:

    I Cor 9:20-23 I have become like a Jew to the Jews, in order that I may gain the Jews. To those under the law I became as under the law (although I myself am not under the law) in order that I may gain those under the law. 21 To those outside the law I became as outside the law (although I am not outside the law of God, but subject to the law of Christ) in order that I may gain those outside the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, in order that I may gain the weak. I have become all things to all people, in order that by all means I may save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, in order that I may become a participant with it.

    Now Paul is all things to everyone. The great pretender becoming whatever he needed to be to “save some.” Today we call that manipulation.

    ME:  

    What does Paul say just prior, 

    18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel. 19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

    I have become all things to all people, in order that by all means I may save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel”.

    Paul was meeting diverse groups of people where they were at and being respectful and sociable in their own element and then he’d cease opportunity to teach them of the gospel. So being polite should be considered manipulative?

    So we are to believe that Paul is manipulative and he  wanted to disclose outright his manipulation to the very people he is supposedly manipulating? Got it!

    #946113
    Jodi
    Participant

     

    DT

    YOU: II Cor 11:8 I robbed other churches, taking wages of them that I might minister unto you; Paul tells the Corinthians he isn’t charging them for his “ministry” to them; he is being so gracious to the wealthier church in Corinth, but took payment from less wealthy churches so he wouldn’t have to “charge” them even though it was his “right” to do so. The church that could afford payment, Paul wasn’t going to “burden”; but the poorer churches, he’ll take their payment and calls it “robbing” them. Why didn’t he refuse payment? If Paul meant something else, “robbing” is an extremely poor choice of words; but I think he meant what he said.

    ME: So your perspective of Paul seems to be,

    Corinth, you’re so wealthy, your so cool, I wouldn’t dare ask anything from you, but get this, ha ha, I am here preaching the gospel to you, by the backs of those poor churches, yah those idiots I make them pay.

    Curious DT what you are working off from, did you find some doctrine that likes to take verses here and there of Paul and remove them from the surrounding truth so to slander him?

    Do you have any idea that Paul had asked and received money from them times before? In this light might you consider what might have changed?

    2 Corinthians 2:8 The Collection for the Lord’s People

    1And now, brothers and sisters, we want you to know about the grace that God has given the Macedonian churches. 2In the midst of a very severe trial, their overflowing joy and their extreme poverty welled up in rich generosity. 3For I testify that they gave as much as they were able, and even beyond their ability. Entirely on their own, 4they urgently pleaded with us for the privilege of sharing in this service to the Lord’s people. 5And they exceeded our expectations: They gave themselves first of all to the Lord, and then by the will of God also to us. 6 So we urged Titus, just as he had earlier made a beginning, to bring also to completion this act of grace on your part. 7But since you excel in everything—in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in complete earnestness and in the love we have kindled in you—see that you also excel in this grace of giving.

    8I am not commanding you, but I want to test the sincerity of your love by comparing it with the earnestness of others. 9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich.

    10 And here is my judgment about what is best for you in this matter. Last year you were the first not only to give but also to have the desire to do so. 11Now finish the work, so that your eager willingness to do it may be matched by your completion of it, according to your means. 12For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what one does not have. 13 Our desire is not that others might be relieved while you are hard pressed, but that there might be equality.14 At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. The goal is equality, 15as it is written: “The one who gathered much did not have too much, and the one who gathered little did not have too little.”

    Titus Sent to Receive the Collection

    16Thanks be to God, who put into the heart of Titus the same concern I have for you. 17 For Titus not only welcomed our appeal, but he is coming to you with much enthusiasm and on his own initiative. 18 And we are sending along with him the brother who is praised by all the churches for his service to the gospel…24 Therefore show these men the proof of your love and the reason for our pride in you, so that the churches can see it.

    2 Corinthians 9

    1There is no need for me to write to you about this service to the Lord’s people. 2 For I know your eagerness to help, and I have been boasting about it to the Macedonians, telling them that since last year you in Achaia were ready to give; and your enthusiasm has stirred most of them to action. 3But I am sending the brothers in order that our boasting about you in this matter should not prove hollow, but that you may be ready, as I said you would be. 4 For if any Macedonians come with me and find you unprepared, we not to say anything about you would be ashamed of having been so confident. 5 So I thought it necessary to urge the brothers to visit you in advance and finish the arrangements for the generous gift you had promised. Then it will be ready as a generous gift, not as one grudgingly given.

    12 This service that you perform is not only supplying the needs of the Lord’s people but is also overflowing in many expressions of thanks to God. 13 Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, others will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else. 14And in their prayers for you their hearts will go out to you, because of the surpassing grace God has given you. 15Thanks be to God for his indescribable gift!

    2 Corinthians 10: 1 By the humility and gentleness of Christ, I appeal to you, I, Paul, who am “timid” when face to face with you, but “bold” toward you when away! 2 I beg you that when I come I may not have to be as bold as I expect to be toward some people who think that we live by the standards of this world. 3For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 6And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete.

    7 You are judging by appearances. If anyone is confident that they belong to Christ, they should consider again that we belong to Christ just as much as they do. 8So even if I boast somewhat freely about the authority the Lord gave us for building you up rather than tearing you down, I will not be ashamed of it. 9I do not want to seem to be trying to frighten you with my letters. 10For some say, “His letters are weighty and forceful, but in person he is unimpressive and his speaking amounts to nothing.” 11Such people should realize that what we are in our letters when we are absent, we will be in our actions when we are present.

    12We do not dare to classify or compare ourselves with some who commend themselves. When they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves with themselves, they are not wise. 13We, however, will not boast beyond proper limits, but will confine our boasting to the sphere of service God himself has assigned to us, a sphere that also includes you. 14We are not going too far in our boasting, as would be the case if we had not come to you, for we did get as far as you with the gospel of Christ. 15Neither do we go beyond our limits by boasting of work done by others. Our hope is that, as your faith continues to grow, our sphere of activity among you will greatly expand, 16so that we can preach the gospel in the regions beyond you. For we do not want to boast about work already done in someone else’s territory. 17But, “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.” 18For it is not the one who commends himself who is approved, but the one whom the Lord commends.

    2 Corinthians 11:1 I hope you will put up with me in a little foolishness. Yes, please put up with me! 2 I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. 3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. 5 I do not think I am in the least inferior to those “super-apostles.” 6 I may indeed be untrained as a speaker, but I do have knowledge. We have made this perfectly clear to you in every way. 7 Was it a sin for me to lower myself in order to elevate you by preaching the gospel of God to you free of charge?

    8 I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you.

    9 And when I was with you and needed something, I was not a burden to anyone, for the brothers who came from Macedonia supplied what I needed. I have kept myself from being a burden to you in any way, and will continue to do so. 10 As surely as the truth of Christ is in me, nobody in the regions of Achaia will stop this boasting of mine. 11 Why? Because I do not love you? God knows I do! 12 And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ.

    16 I repeat: Let no one take me for a fool. But if you do, then tolerate me just as you would a fool, so that I may do a little boasting. 17 In this self-confident boasting I am not talking as the Lord would, but as a fool. 18 Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast. 19You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise! 20In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or puts on airs or slaps you in the face. 21To my shame I admit that we were too weak for that! Whatever anyone else dares to boast about I am speaking as a fool, I also dare to boast about. 22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they Abraham’s descendants? So am I. 23 Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this.) I am more. I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. 24Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. 27I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. 28Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. 29Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin, and I do not inwardly burn? 30If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. 31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying. 32 In Damascus the governor under King Aretas had the city of the Damascenes guarded in order to arrest me. 33 But I was lowered in a basket from a window in the wall and slipped through his hands.

    2 Corinthians 12: 14 Now I am ready to visit you for the third time, and I will not be a burden to you, because what I want is not your possessions but you. After all, children should not have to save up for their parents, but parents for their children. 15 So I will very gladly spend for you everything I have and expend myself as well. If I love you more, will you love me less? 16 Be that as it may, I have not been a burden to you. Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery! 17 Did I exploit you through any of the men I sent to you? 18 I urged Titus to go to you and I sent our brother with him. Titus did not exploit you, did he? Did we not walk in the same footsteps by the same Spirit? 19 Have you been thinking all along that we have been defending ourselves to you? We have been speaking in the sight of God as those in Christ; and everything we do, dear friends, is for your strengthening. 20 For I am afraid that when I come I may not find you as I want you to be, and you may not find me as you want me to be. I fear that there may be discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder. 21 I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.

    So what changed DT? 

    Let me highlight,

    8 I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you.

    12 And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ.

    18 Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast. 19You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise! 20 In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or puts on airs or slaps you in the face.

    14 Now I am ready to visit you for the third time, and I will not be a burden to you, because what I want is not your possessions but you.

    DT you do realize that the false apostles are getting PAID right and what they want is the church’s possessions to serve themselves and they boast therein which is a slap in the church’s face, but they put up with it. What does Paul boast about as you slander him DT? He boasts about the great lengths of suffering he has put himself through in order to preach the gospel.

    What did we read in 2 Corinthians 9:2, Paul boasted about the giving nature of Corinth to the Macedonians and in turn it encouraged their giving.  But now he says he does not want their possessions he wants them, they have fallen unto sinful ways.

    What does it say when the rich church of Corinth gives donations also to false apostles, where does their devotion and sincere faith lie, do they have any at all or do they just have money to give away? Paul wants their faith, if he took donations without it, he would be just like the false apostles, the only thing he would be able to boast about would be the money itself.

    He specifically says, provided below in a different translation for more clarity, 

    12 And what I do I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do.

     

    #946110
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU: God didn’t create laws that man wasn’t able to do, man chose not to do them and has paid the consequence for that disobedience. Read Deuteronomy Chapter 30.

    ME:  Your above statement contradicts scripture of the OT and it preaches self-righteousness which then you make us into our own gods.

    Ezekiel 36: 24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and CAUSE YOU to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

    37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my Spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

    God created laws to reveal that man can do nothing of himself, we need God’s Spirit in us to be able to walk in all His ways.

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
    2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

    Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. ..6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

    Others have argued the same as you on this forum before an accused my position as to make us into puppets, but that is not the case at all. Is not man that of a body and a mind whose thoughts and actions comes through constant input to which causes influence? Has man not proven that we are ignorant, gullible, superstitious creatures? God does as He wills and when He choosing a calling it can not be held back as the works of His Spirit supersedes over all other forces of influence. 

    Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.

    Psalms 73:22 So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee.

    Wisdom, truth, love, kindness, patience, self control, etc., ALL are the works of Gods Spirit.

    The entire world, every soul, would be exceedingly wicked and we’d all be nothing but ignorant superstitious idiots 24/7, living like cavemen, if it were not for God’s intervention and all the gifts that He has bestowed upon mankind. God is not just the source of righteousness but also that of wisdom and truth.

    God is the source, but if man had been filled with the Spirit from the beginning how would God go about proving that He was the source, might we have thought ourselves to be gods? How would God have built our trust our appreciation and love for Him?

    Romans 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

    Paul tells us that those who are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God and that the Spirit bears witness to our spirit that we are children of God, this is consistent with Ezekiel. Surely DT you don’t have a problem with Paul’s teaching on this?

    #946095
    Jodi
    Participant

    previous post was repeated so I have deleted it

    #946093
    Jodi
    Participant

    Yes, I will second what Danny said, amen to your last post Gene!

    DT, what is so awful about what Paul teaches? Certainly it seems what you think is awful is because you have him all wrong as you don’t apply his words with his own words as well as apply them to the words of others in scripture OT and NT. 

    Why DT did God say in Ezekiel 36 that He would put His Spirit in man and by such CAUSE him to be able to walk in all His ways? Why do we see Isaiah tell us that the Messiah would also receive God’s Spirit and do righteous works, such as be able to judge the world in righteousness, not by his own eyes, but through God in him?

    No man is able to keep even one letter of the law without the workings of God’s Spirit. The law identified sin and it revealed that no man is capable of living without sin on his own. One must be born of God’s Spirit to be without sin and Jesus is our example, he is the firstborn.

     The Spirit within equates to the law being written in the heart, wherein thus the law is not necessary, do you get that? This is what Paul taught. Ezekiel starts off by saying God would cleanse us and give us a new heart and put His Spirit within causing man to walk in all His ways. Jesus preached that we would drink of the cup that he drinks of and be baptized with the baptism he received, but people on this forum out right deny Jesus’s own baptism. Jesus will baptize us with the Holy Spirit as God had baptized him with the Holy Spirit, which was a calling to righteousness just as Isaiah prophesied unto a Son of Man. 

    See, believing in Jesus is believing that the Spirit of God dwells in him, that he has been born of the Spirit, where the fruit thereof as Paul says in Ephesians, is in all goodness, righteousness and truth. Believing in Jesus ALSO means that we are promised to drink of the same cup he drinks of, drink of the cup of the One Spirit which brings forth righteousness unto eternal life. 

    We are justified through Christ as he is the proof of God’s working Spirit in man. The idea that God had to send down a pre-existing Son to earth and make him flesh in order to save us is a LIE that takes away from the glory of the truth and is to undermine God’s Spirit. God sent down His Word from heaven, His Word that had been With him before the world was, the Word by which He created all things, His purpose, which was for His Spirit to come to dwell in man and lead him in all the ways that he should go. Jesus is a firstborn of this, he received the Spirit at the river Jordan and then he preached this Word of Life and then he received the” Promised Spirit” when he rose from the dead, “this day I have begotten you”. This is the Word being made flesh. 

    It’s not a pre-existing Son of God came to be our savior as many on this forum teach.

    YHVH our heavenly Father is our Savior through CHRIST -the Son of Man anointed of God’s Spirit, where being led by that Spirit living in him he is a Son of God and it is this Son of God who was sent. He came from God, he came directly to us thus from heaven.

    Paul gives us the very definition of the Son in Romans 8 but many on this forum deny it. Jesus is a Son of God because the Spirit in him is a witness to his own spirit that he is a child of God. Jesus’s actions show us that this Son of Man’s spirit is being led by God’s Spirit and those that are” led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God.” By this he is a firstborn of many brethren. Being justified through Christ exactly equates to being justified through YHVH’s Spirit aboding in man. Jesus’s name means YHVH is salvation and that salvation came through YHVH aboding in Jesus.

    John 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. 28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

    YHVH’s Spirit is the cause to our salvation, Jesus’s name was glorified at the river Jordon and upon his resurrection, when both times he was begotten of God’s Spirit. Paul tells us in Galatians that “the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.”  You see the Spirit dwells in you it’s in your heart so it becomes your nature, if it’s in your nature there is no need to have a law. Needing to have the law when the Spirit is in you and it’s works become your very nature, would be an insult to God, it would be telling God that He Himself needs the law also in order to be righteous. In God’s kingdom He is going to change the very nature of animals too, ” 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.” This has been one of my favorite scriptures since I was 10, and I have been longing for the fulfillment of this passage since then.

     

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