Worship

This topic contains 2,137 replies, has 59 voices, and was last updated by  terraricca 4 years ago.

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  • #340736
     Lightenup 
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    Quote (t8 @ April 02 2013,07:47)
    Jesus is worshipped as the son of God and the Lamb of God in the Bible.
    Not as God though. It says, God AND the Lamb in Revelation. Worthy is God AND the Lamb that was slain. Something like that.

    Kathi probably wants it to say that God was slain and is worshipped. But no, the Lamb of God was slain and is considered worthy.


    He is worshiped as the begotten God, not as God the Father, nevertheless…He is worshiped as a God would be albeit an only begotten One.

    The Lamb that was slain was also the only begotten God…seems you miss the intent of Jesus being both the Root and the Shoot. You consistently deny Him as the Root.

    Btw, t8…Jesus as the firstborn is not the prototype…the Father is the prototype. That came to me tonight during Hebrew class…you're welcome! :;):

    #340738
     Lightenup 
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    Quote (terraricca @ April 02 2013,07:59)

    Quote (Lightenup @ April 02 2013,11:53)
    Oh, David, it's so hard for you to admit that Jesus receives deity worship in the Bible.

    All things were made by Him
    He is the Lord of all
    He is the Lion of Judah
    He is the Root of Jesse
    He is the First and the Last
    He is the Alpha and the Omega
    He is the Lord of lords
    He is the great Shepherd
    He is the Redeemer of Israel
    He purchased the church with His blood
    He is the head of the church
    His angels minister to Him…

    Is He not worthy of your deity worship?


    Kathi

    We're does it says :that Christ his in fact God almighty the father ???

    Wen you find this please let everyone know,


    t-
    Where have I ever suggested that He was the Father? He is Almighty with the Father though.

    #340740
     Lightenup 
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    Quote (david @ April 02 2013,01:19)

    Quote (Lightenup @ April 02 2013,16:53)
    Oh, David, it's so hard for you to admit that Jesus receives deity worship in the Bible.

    All things were made by Him
    He is the Lord of all
    He is the Lion of Judah
    He is the Root of Jesse
    He is the First and the Last
    He is the Alpha and the Omega
    He is the Lord of lords
    He is the great Shepherd
    He is the Redeemer of Israel
    He purchased the church with His blood
    He is the head of the church
    His angels minister to Him…

    Is He not worthy of your deity worship?


    I am only here saying that there are at least two instances in the NT where proskyneo doesn't mean “worship.”

    Looking at those two verses, it certainly doesn't always mean “worship.”

    Studying this, it seems what it comes down to is: if you already believe Jesus is God the almighty, then you will think he should of course be worshipped.  If you don't think he is God almighty, you will see differently.

    You pointing out Jesus' greatness, doesn't really prove anything, as no one questions his importance or greatness.  What is in question is whether he was worshipped, and should be worshipped today.


    David,
    You said this:

    Quote
    There's also the scripture where they were bowing down to Jesus, (mockingly) while spitting on him, but the KJV I believe, renders it “worshipped” him. Clearly, they were not worshipping Jesus, but mockingly bowing down to him, as the king of the Jews, which they didn't believe. Yet, the word is proskyneo.

    Yet, it wasn't worship.

    Compare the verses where any of the disciples worshiped Jesus with the one you are talking about when they 'mock' worship Him. Are the disciples CLEARLY not worshiping Jesus too?

    Luke 24
    50Then he led them out as far as Bethany, and lifting up his hands he blessed them. 51While he blessed them, he parted from them and was carried up into heaven. 52And they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy, 53and were continually in the temple blessing God.

    #340776
     mikeboll64 
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    Quote (david @ April 01 2013,22:41)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 11 2012,09:57)
    Hi Kathi,

    During the course of our “proskuneo” discussion, I referred you and Keith to 2 Samuel 1:2, where a man bows down to King David.  I told you guys that the word used in the LXX was “proskuneo”, and that it didn't mean this man “worshipped” King David as if he were God.

    I remember both you and Keith making the claim that, LXX aside, there is no NT instance where “proskuneo” doesn't refer to “God-worship”.  Do you remember this?  I do clearly, because I thought it odd that to prove your point, you would divide the Bible in half, and only allow the use of the second half.

    But anyway,I've just happened upon the NT verse you said didn't exist:
    Matthew 18:26 NIV ©
    The servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’

    The Greek word is “proskuneo”, and surely Jesus wasn't saying this slave “God-worshipped” his master.

    It's interesting to know that virtually every translation has “bowed down to”, “prostrated himself before”, or something similar.  This just goes to show that the only reason they translate “proskuneo” as “worship” when it comes to Jesus is bias, and nothing more.


    There's also the scripture where they were bowing down to Jesus, (mockingly) while spitting on him, but the KJV I believe, renders it “worshipped” him.  Clearly, they were not worshipping Jesus, but mockingly bowing down to him, as the king of the Jews, which they didn't believe.  Yet, the word is proskyneo.

    Yet, it wasn't worship.


    John 9
    35 Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”

    36 “Who is he, sir?” the man asked. “Tell me so that I may believe in him.”

    37 Jesus said, “You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you.”

    38 Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.

    39 Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.”

    40 Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, “What? Are we blind too?”

    Question:  Does it really make sense to anyone here that this formerly blind man “WORSHIPED” Jesus right in front of some Pharisees, who were currently busy plotting a way to have Jesus killed, and they said NOTHING about a man WORSHIPPING him as if he was God Almighty?

    This is just one more instance of “proskuneo” that should NOT be translated as “worshiped” – even though most Trinitarian translations DO render it that way – simply because the reverence was paid to Jesus, and not someone else.

    #340777
     kerwin 
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    LU,

    Colossians 2:18
    New King James Version (NKJV)

    18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not[a] seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
    Footnotes:

    Colossians 2:18 NU-Text omits not.

    The word used here for worship is thréskeia. It is not the act of bowing or the like.

    #340778
     terraricca 
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    Quote (Lightenup @ April 04 2013,06:56)

    Quote (terraricca @ April 02 2013,07:59)

    Quote (Lightenup @ April 02 2013,11:53)
    Oh, David, it's so hard for you to admit that Jesus receives deity worship in the Bible.

    All things were made by Him
    He is the Lord of all
    He is the Lion of Judah
    He is the Root of Jesse
    He is the First and the Last
    He is the Alpha and the Omega
    He is the Lord of lords
    He is the great Shepherd
    He is the Redeemer of Israel
    He purchased the church with His blood
    He is the head of the church
    His angels minister to Him…

    Is He not worthy of your deity worship?


    Kathi

    We're does it says :that Christ his in fact God almighty the father ???

    Wen you find this please let everyone know,


    t-
    Where have I ever suggested that He was the Father? He is Almighty with the Father though.


    Kathy

    Yes Christ his mighty but not above his father ,or equal to his father ,
    He was created ,this is why they call him the son of God ,an son was never a son before he came forth,

    #340781
     david 
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    Quote (Lightenup @ April 04 2013,11:56)

    Quote (terraricca @ April 02 2013,07:59)

    Quote (Lightenup @ April 02 2013,11:53)
    Oh, David, it's so hard for you to admit that Jesus receives deity worship in the Bible.

    All things were made by Him
    He is the Lord of all
    He is the Lion of Judah
    He is the Root of Jesse
    He is the First and the Last
    He is the Alpha and the Omega
    He is the Lord of lords
    He is the great Shepherd
    He is the Redeemer of Israel
    He purchased the church with His blood
    He is the head of the church
    His angels minister to Him…

    Is He not worthy of your deity worship?


    Kathi

    We're does it says :that Christ his in fact God almighty the father ???

    Wen you find this please let everyone know,


    t-
    Where have I ever suggested that He was the Father? He is Almighty with the Father though.


    Here's the thing:

    We don't really have great proof that he is called “almighty.”

    We have revelation which may be referring to “Jehovah” or may be referring to “Jesus.” That's the one time where Jesus is claimed to be called “almighty.”

    On the other hand, we have 43 times where “Jehovah” (not Jesus) is unquestionably called “almighty.” In these instances it is usually the “father” or “Jehovah” who is called God “almighty.” But in all 43 cases, it is obvious that is is Jehovah and not Jesus. Well, I'm actually including the relation scripture in with the 43 I guess.

    Jehovah– 42 times, unquestionably called “almighty.”
    Jesus–in revelation, he might be called this, but its also possible it's Jehovah that is called this in revelation.

    So, you can say he is “almighty.” What is clear from scripture is that Jehovah, the father is almighty. It's not really so clear that Jesus is, although he is called “mighty” a few times.

    David.

    #340792
     t8 
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    Quote (Lightenup @ April 04 2013,14:55)
    Btw, t8…Jesus as the firstborn is not the prototype…the Father is the prototype. That came to me tonight during Hebrew class…you're welcome!


    Ke, he is the prototype son.

    How does that make him God?

    It doesn't.

    #340882
     mikeboll64 
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    Quote (david @ April 03 2013,22:41)
    Jehovah– 42 times, unquestionably called “almighty.”
    Jesus–in revelation, he might be called this………..


    Can there be more than one “Almighty” god?  Doesn't “Almighty” mean “the mightiest of the mighty”?   How can there be two mightiests?

    #340883
     mikeboll64 
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    Quote (kerwin @ April 03 2013,21:07)
    The word used here for worship is thréskeia.


    Interesting. Thank you.

    #341824
     GeneBalthrop 
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    To All……Phi 3:3…..> For we are the circumcision, which “WORSHIP” God in the Spirit, “and” rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

    Notice what is it says, we “worship God” it does not say we worship Jesus, But God, and we “rejoice” in Christ Jesus

    John 4:24…… Jesus said this,> God is a “SPIRIT” and they that “WORSHIP” him must worship in SPIRIT and in TRUTH.

    Nothing is said about worshiping Jesus or him being a Spiirt or God either, we have no commandment to worship Jesus or any son of God that i know of. . WE are to Worship God ONLY and no other. IMO

    peace and love to you all…………………………………gene

    #341845
     kerwin 
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    To all,

    Satan tempted Jesus to proskynēsēs him.

    We are to proskynēseis only God.

    Neither form is used in relation to Jesus though I believe they share a root to those of words that were. Something to look into.

    #341969
     GeneBalthrop 
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    To All……….Jesus is our Master not our GOD of any kind, we are called to do what the Master tells us so we can grow and mature and overcome this world and everything in it, we are called along side Jesus and just  as He said “it is enough that the servant be as the Master, or the student as the teacher”, that is what is all about ,it is not about us “WORSHIPING” or making Jesus a “little god” , but us coming to Worship who Jesus worshiped and obeyed, the ONE AND “ONLY” TRUE GOD who Jesus obeyed > IMO

    peace and love to you all and yours……………………………………..gene

    #374454
     NickHassan 
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    Hi,
    Jesus said he was
    “ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God”
    Jn 20.17

    #380276
     NickHassan 
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    Hi,
    1 Peter 3
    14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness’ sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; 15 but sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 16 having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

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