Worship

This topic contains 2,137 replies, has 59 voices, and was last updated by  terraricca 3 years, 9 months ago.

  • Author
    Posts
  • #284730
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 69,480

    Hi MB,
    Of course.
    Jn 20.17

    #336018
     Lightenup 
    Participant
    • Topics started 63
    • Total replies 10,170

    I enjoyed reading through this old thread this morning.

    #336089
     Lightenup 
    Participant
    • Topics started 63
    • Total replies 10,170

    Quote (theodorej @ Nov. 16 2010,15:48)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 17 2010,07:24)
    Ted,
    What you call 'apparition' the early church father's called a theophany.

    Theophany: an appearance of God in visible form, temporary and not necessarily material. Such an appearance is to be contrasted with the Incarnation, in which there was a permanent union between God and complete manhood (body, soul , and spirit) (Cross, The Oxford Dictionary Of The Christian Church).

    Do you think that the Word of God had a distinct mind from the Father?
    http://www.georgefox.edu/academics/undergrad/departments/religion/students/glossary.html


    Kathi….. The word of God is an intricate  part of the God being….just as our voice is a function of our being and a means  to communicate….


    Hi Ted,
    I came across this as I randomly looked through this thread. I wanted to bump it because I was reading something last night about the Word of YHVH as it 'appeared in a vision' and that didn't sound like what you describe. It sounds like something that has a visual appearance. If I can find it, I will put it here.

    #336093
     t8 
    Participant
    • Topics started 883
    • Total replies 18,134

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 11 2012,12:57)
    Hi Kathi,

    During the course of our “proskuneo” discussion, I referred you and Keith to 2 Samuel 1:2, where a man bows down to King David.  I told you guys that the word used in the LXX was “proskuneo”, and that it didn't mean this man “worshipped” King David as if he were God.

    I remember both you and Keith making the claim that, LXX aside, there is no NT instance where “proskuneo” doesn't refer to “God-worship”.  Do you remember this?  I do clearly, because I thought it odd that to prove your point, you would divide the Bible in half, and only allow the use of the second half.

    But anyway,I've just happened upon the NT verse you said didn't exist:
    Matthew 18:26 NIV ©
    The servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’

    The Greek word is “proskuneo”, and surely Jesus wasn't saying this slave “God-worshipped” his master.

    It's interesting to know that virtually every translation has “bowed down to”, “prostrated himself before”, or something similar.  This just goes to show that the only reason they translate “proskuneo” as “worship” when it comes to Jesus is bias, and nothing more.


    When Jesus was worshipped as the son of God on the boat, was that proskuneo too?

    #336095
     2besee 
    Member
    • Topics started 24
    • Total replies 3,451

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 21 2005,16:29)
    Hi,
    This topic always causes a flood of opinions so perhaps we should look at it on it's own.

    Jn 4.21
    ” Jesus said to her
    'Woman, believe me an hour is coming when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall you WORSHIP THE FATHER.
    You worship that which you do not know ;we worship that which we know;for salvation is from the Jews.
    But an hour is coming, and now is , when the
    TRUE WORSHIPPERS shall WORSHIP THE FATHER in spirit and truth;for such people THE FATHER SEEKS TO BE HIS WORSHIPPERS.
    God is spirit;and those who WORSHIP HIM must worship in spirit and in truth'”

    This is the teaching of Jesus about worship.
    He says we should worship the Father.

    Hi Nick.

    “Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.

    And he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.”

    Then Jesus said to him,
    “Be gone, Satan!
    For it is written,

    “‘You shall worship the Lord your God
    and him only shall you serve.’”

    Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and were ministering to him.”

    Just my ten cents.

    #336097
     2besee 
    Member
    • Topics started 24
    • Total replies 3,451

    Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 17 2013,20:10)

    Quote (theodorej @ Nov. 16 2010,15:48)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 17 2010,07:24)
    Ted,
    What you call 'apparition' the early church father's called a theophany.

    Theophany: an appearance of God in visible form, temporary and not necessarily material. Such an appearance is to be contrasted with the Incarnation, in which there was a permanent union between God and complete manhood (body, soul , and spirit) (Cross, The Oxford Dictionary Of The Christian Church).

    Do you think that the Word of God had a distinct mind from the Father?
    http://www.georgefox.edu/academics/undergrad/departments/religion/students/glossary.html


    Kathi….. The word of God is an intricate  part of the God being….just as our voice is a function of our being and a means  to communicate….


    Hi Ted,
    I came across this as I randomly looked through this thread. I wanted to bump it because I was reading something last night about the Word of YHVH as it 'appeared in a vision' and that didn't sound like what you describe. It sounds like something that has a visual appearance. If I can find it, I will put it here.


    LU, I would completely agree with TheoJ here. The word of God is His own word just as we have our own word, spoken. And the spirit of God (The Holy Spirit) is God's own spirit, just as we have our own spirit as well as our word which makes ONE GOD, and that God alone we worship and love with all of our heart.

    Jesus said it, Jesus said that it is God alone who we are to Worship. We should obey Him.

    Anyway just an additional ten cents.

    #336099
     Lightenup 
    Participant
    • Topics started 63
    • Total replies 10,170

    Hi 2besee,
    I appreciate your response. I ask you if what you say is so, why is the 'Word of YHVH' appearing in a vision?

    Read this excerpt of an article that I will link to:

    Genesis 15 is a fairly familiar passage to many Christians, at least in terms of the
    basic flow of events. In that chapter God repeats his promise to Abraham from Genesis
    12 that the patriarch will have descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky. But is
    God alone when he makes this promise? Check it out and watch for the underlining:
    1 After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision: “Fear
    not, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great.” 2 But
    Abram said, “O Lord God [Hebrew, adonai-Yahweh] what will you give
    me, for I continue childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of
    Damascus?” 3 And Abram said, “Behold, you have given me no offspring,
    and a member of my household will be my heir.” 4 And behold, the word
    of the Lord came to him: “This man shall not be your heir; your very own
    son shall be your heir.” 5 And he brought him outside and said, “Look
    toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.”
    Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 6 And he believed the
    Lord [Hebrew, Yahweh] and he counted it to him as righteousness.
    This is a fascinating text. Notice right from the start that it is the WORD of the
    Lord who comes to Abram in a vision. This is no mere voice or auditory sensation.
    The Word here is something that can be seen—else why call it a vision? Abram
    recognizes this Word or being as the Lord (Yahweh) and speaks to him as such. Now,
    since Abram is in a conversation with God, we might be tempted to say that the phrase
    “the word of the Lord came to him” in verse four is just a sound in his ear and no other
    person is visibly there. Verse five makes it clear that we are interpreting verse one
    correctly—that there is a person there with Abraham: “And he [the Word / Yahweh]
    brought him outside and said …” A sound does not bring a person outside; another
    person does. My thinking here is that this text does not have two deity figures in it at
    one time, but rather that here we have another case of Yahweh appearing in visible form
    to Abraham, this time referred to as the Word. Incidentally, have you ever wondered
    how, in Genesis 18, where we read point-blank that Yahweh visits Abraham as a human
    (or in a human body since he ate with Abraham), Abraham recognized Yahweh in that
    episode? My guess is that he had seen him before, here in Genesis 15.ii
    The most powerful evidence that Genesis 15 is describing a visible person
    referred to as the “Word” comes from the New Testament—and from Jesus, the Word,
    himself. In John 8:56, the Incarnate Word tells his Jewish antagonists that he appeared
    to Abraham prior to his incarnation: “Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see
    my day. He saw it and was glad.” The Jews object to this claim, whereupon Jesus utters
    his famous statement, “before Abraham was, I am” (John 8:58).iii My point here is that
    only one passage in the Old Testament makes sense of this claim by Jesus, the Logos,
    the Word—Genesis 15:1, where “the Word of the Lord appeared to Abraham in a
    vision” as the visible, personal manifestation of Yahweh. I hope you grasp the
    significance of this interchange. Since the Word is clearly equated and identified as
    Yahweh in Genesis 15, when the New Testament has Jesus saying “that was me,” he is
    claiming to be Yahweh in visible form. He is the Word of the Old Testament, who was
    the visible Yahweh.iv
    Returning to the Old Testament, an episode similar to that of Genesis 15
    transpired in the life of Samuel when he was a boy. I Samuel 3 is another familiar Bible
    story that we often read through too quickly. Little Samuel keeps hearing a voice
    calling for him while he’s trying to sleep, but there’s more to it than that. The voice is
    the Word of God:
    1 Now the young man Samuel was ministering to the Lord under Eli. And
    the word of the Lord was rare in those days; there was no frequent vision.
    2 At that time Eli, whose eyesight had begun to grow dim so that he could
    not see, was lying down in his own place. 3 The lamp of God had not yet
    gone out, and Samuel was lying down in the temple of the Lord, where the
    ark of God was. 4 Then the Lord called Samuel, and he said, “Here I am!”
    5 and ran to Eli and said, “Here I am, for you called me.” But he said, “I
    did not call; lie down again.” So he went and lay down. 6 And the Lord
    called again, “Samuel!” and Samuel arose and went to Eli and said, “Here
    I am, for you called me.” But he said, “I did not call, my son; lie down
    again.” 7 Now Samuel did not yet know the Lord, and the word of the
    Lord had not yet been revealed to him. 8 And the Lord called Samuel
    again the third time. And he arose and went to Eli and said, “Here I am,
    for you called me.” Then Eli perceived that the Lord was calling the young
    man. 9 Therefore Eli said to Samuel, “Go, lie down, and if he calls you,
    you shall say, ‘Speak, Lord, for your servant hears.’ ” So Samuel went and
    lay down in his place. 10 And the Lord came and stood, calling as at other
    times, “Samuel! Samuel!” And Samuel said, “Speak, for your servant
    hears.” . . . 19 And Samuel grew, and the Lord was with him and let none
    of his words fall to the ground. 20 And all Israel from Dan to Beersheba
    knew that Samuel was established as a prophet of the Lord. 21 And the
    Lord appeared again at Shiloh, for the Lord revealed himself to Samuel at
    Shiloh by the word of the Lord.
    I hope you’re as amazed as I was the first time I saw this passage in this light.
    As with Genesis 15, the first verse of this passage makes a clear association between the
    Word of the Lord and a visionary experience—not a mere auditory event. The Word
    was rare because visions were rare. Notice at the end of the chapter the fact that we are
    talking about the Word as a being who was seen is absolutely nailed down. The Lord
    (Yahweh) “appeared again” at Shiloh, the place where the tabernacle (“temple”) was
    located before Solomon’s temple was built. And Yahweh “revealed himself”—again
    the language of sight—by the Word of the Lord. Notice as well that once Eli figures out
    what’s going on and instructs Samuel on how to respond, the Word came again and
    “stood” before Samuel. Voices do not stand! Persons do. God appears once again in
    physical form and is referred to as the Word.
    Our last example from the Hebrew Old Testament is perhaps even more explicit,
    and takes the Old Testament beyond the visual realm. In Jeremiah 1, the call of the
    prophet, we read:
    1 The words of Jeremiah, the son of Hilkiah, one of the priests who were
    in Anathoth in the land of Benjamin, 2 to whom the word of the Lord
    came in the days of Josiah the son of Amon, king of Judah, in the
    thirteenth year of his reign. 3 It came also in the days of Jehoiakim the son
    of Josiah, king of Judah, and until the end of the eleventh year of
    Zedekiah, the son of Josiah, king of Judah, until the captivity of Jerusalem
    in the fifth month. 4 Now the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 5
    “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I
    consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.” 6 Then I said,
    “Ah, Lord God! [Hebrew, adonai-Yahweh] Behold, I do not know how to
    speak, for I am only a youth.” 7 But the Lord [Yahweh] said to me, “Do
    not say, ‘I am only a youth’; for to all to whom I send you, you shall go,
    and whatever I command you, you shall speak. 8 Do not be afraid of them,
    for I am with you to deliver you, declares the Lord.” 9 Then the Lord
    [Yahweh] put out his hand and touched my mo
    uth. And the Lord
    [Yahweh] said to me, “Behold, I have put my words in your mouth.
    It is quite clear from the first eight verses in this chapter that the prophet is
    conversing with Yahweh, who in verse 4 is referred to as “the Word.” We could easily
    take this as Jeremiah speaking to the air or responding to something only in his ear. But
    then comes verse nine, where the Word reaches out and touches Jeremiah. Sounds
    don’t physically touch people. Physical persons touch people. In Jeremiah 1 the
    Word—pardon my borrowing from John 1:14—is made flesh and does something only
    a physical entity can do.
    In the last chapter I made a point of demonstrating that the understanding of
    Wisdom as a deity figure was something that wasn’t made up by Christians as a sort of
    self-styled manipulation of the Old Testament for their own purposes. That view was
    shared by Jewish writers well before the New Testament was ever written. The same is
    true for the idea that the “Word” was a physical manifestation of Yahweh. That belief
    was actually very common in the Judaism that flourished in Palestine well before Jesus
    was born. What this means for us in this book is that John had to look no further than
    his own Jewish traditions for his doctrine of the Word as a manifestation of Yahweh,
    the God of the Old Testament. What we find in the New Testament demonstrates
    continuity of the concepts, along with further development. The point is that both pre-
    Christian Jews and Christian Jews looked back at their Hebrew Old Testament and saw
    a “binitarian” godhead in certain passages. How can I be so sure? All one needs to do
    is look back at the Jewish writings before Jesus founded the Church.

    To read the rest of that article go here and then click on 'The Word of YHVH':

    http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/

    #336102
     2besee 
    Member
    • Topics started 24
    • Total replies 3,451

    Hi LU,

    I read it.
    It was good to read, except that I understood the word of God to be God's own words spoken through the spiritually visible Son of God – the Holy Spirit.

    Then I got to the ending, where it said:

    Quote
    The point is that both pre-
    Christian Jews and Christian Jews looked back at their Hebrew Old Testament and saw
    a “binitarian” godhead in certain passages.

    NO! The Holy Spirit is the spirit of the ONE God.

    'Who knows the mind of a man but the Spirit that is in Him, and so, likewise, no one knows the mind of God but His own Spirit.'

    The Lord is the Spirit!

    Be careful what you read, LU. I am speaking through experience..

    (something for you to think about – I am in too many threads, so will leave you to it)

    God bless.

    #336128
     Lightenup 
    Participant
    • Topics started 63
    • Total replies 10,170

    Hi 2besee,
    Thanks for taking the time to read it. I left a question for you in one of those threads you are already in.

    #340480
     david 
    Participant
    • Topics started 68
    • Total replies 11,300

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 11 2012,09:57)
    Hi Kathi,

    During the course of our “proskuneo” discussion, I referred you and Keith to 2 Samuel 1:2, where a man bows down to King David.  I told you guys that the word used in the LXX was “proskuneo”, and that it didn't mean this man “worshipped” King David as if he were God.

    I remember both you and Keith making the claim that, LXX aside, there is no NT instance where “proskuneo” doesn't refer to “God-worship”.  Do you remember this?  I do clearly, because I thought it odd that to prove your point, you would divide the Bible in half, and only allow the use of the second half.

    But anyway,I've just happened upon the NT verse you said didn't exist:
    Matthew 18:26 NIV ©
    The servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’

    The Greek word is “proskuneo”, and surely Jesus wasn't saying this slave “God-worshipped” his master.

    It's interesting to know that virtually every translation has “bowed down to”, “prostrated himself before”, or something similar.  This just goes to show that the only reason they translate “proskuneo” as “worship” when it comes to Jesus is bias, and nothing more.


    There's also the scripture where they were bowing down to Jesus, (mockingly) while spitting on him, but the KJV I believe, renders it “worshipped” him. Clearly, they were not worshipping Jesus, but mockingly bowing down to him, as the king of the Jews, which they didn't believe. Yet, the word is proskyneo.

    Yet, it wasn't worship.

    #340485
     Lightenup 
    Participant
    • Topics started 63
    • Total replies 10,170

    Oh, David, it's so hard for you to admit that Jesus receives deity worship in the Bible.

    All things were made by Him
    He is the Lord of all
    He is the Lion of Judah
    He is the Root of Jesse
    He is the First and the Last
    He is the Alpha and the Omega
    He is the Lord of lords
    He is the great Shepherd
    He is the Redeemer of Israel
    He purchased the church with His blood
    He is the head of the church
    His angels minister to Him…

    Is He not worthy of your deity worship?

    #340491
     david 
    Participant
    • Topics started 68
    • Total replies 11,300

    Quote (Lightenup @ April 02 2013,16:53)
    Oh, David, it's so hard for you to admit that Jesus receives deity worship in the Bible.

    All things were made by Him
    He is the Lord of all
    He is the Lion of Judah
    He is the Root of Jesse
    He is the First and the Last
    He is the Alpha and the Omega
    He is the Lord of lords
    He is the great Shepherd
    He is the Redeemer of Israel
    He purchased the church with His blood
    He is the head of the church
    His angels minister to Him…

    Is He not worthy of your deity worship?


    I am only here saying that there are at least two instances in the NT where proskyneo doesn't mean “worship.”

    Looking at those two verses, it certainly doesn't always mean “worship.”

    Studying this, it seems what it comes down to is: if you already believe Jesus is God the almighty, then you will think he should of course be worshipped. If you don't think he is God almighty, you will see differently.

    You pointing out Jesus' greatness, doesn't really prove anything, as no one questions his importance or greatness. What is in question is whether he was worshipped, and should be worshipped today.

    #340518
     t8 
    Participant
    • Topics started 883
    • Total replies 18,134

    Jesus is worshipped as the son of God and the Lamb of God in the Bible.
    Not as God though. It says, God AND the Lamb in Revelation. Worthy is God AND the Lamb that was slain. Something like that.

    Kathi probably wants it to say that God was slain and is worshipped. But no, the Lamb of God was slain and is considered worthy.

    #340519
     t8 
    Participant
    • Topics started 883
    • Total replies 18,134

    The fruit of Kathi's doctrine.

    God died.

    #340522
     terraricca 
    Participant
    • Topics started 67
    • Total replies 28,224

    Quote (Lightenup @ April 02 2013,11:53)
    Oh, David, it's so hard for you to admit that Jesus receives deity worship in the Bible.

    All things were made by Him
    He is the Lord of all
    He is the Lion of Judah
    He is the Root of Jesse
    He is the First and the Last
    He is the Alpha and the Omega
    He is the Lord of lords
    He is the great Shepherd
    He is the Redeemer of Israel
    He purchased the church with His blood
    He is the head of the church
    His angels minister to Him…

    Is He not worthy of your deity worship?


    Kathi

    We're does it says :that Christ his in fact God almighty the father ???

    Wen you find this please let everyone know,

Viewing 15 posts - 2,101 through 2,115 (of 2,138 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2018 Heaven Net

or

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

or

Create Account