Why are there two deaths?

This topic contains 77 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by  t8 2 months, 1 week ago.

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  • #789679
     t8 
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    “There is the spiritually dead but that is a symbolic death in that a person is dead to the Spirit of God.”

    All who do not have the Spirit of life cannot share eternal life.

    They are dead in their sins.

    What exactly makes a person alive? The Spirit or Breath of God? Electricity?

    Does the spirit go back to God who gave it? If so, are the wicked given back the breath or spirit again for the sole purpose of being tortured for all eternity in Hell? Where is it taught that we are given the spirit/breath and then given it again after it is taken away?

    You need to think this through and look at the scriptures.

    How are the wicked alive if they are cut off from the God of the living? Do they have another life power source of some kind? Do they get to keep the breath that gave them life, if so, why does it say that it goes back to god who gave it? Is it wrong when it says that the soul that sins will die? What happens when you forfeit your soul, does it mean you keep it? These are good and sensible questions that any person wanting to know about eternal judgement should ask.

    #789680
     t8 
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    Of course the verse you quote says CAN and not say He does.

    Likewise it does not say instantly destroys.

    It must be aligned with the other verses

    My point stands then as I did not say that the verse said God will, but that he can.

    Many other verses clearly teach he will and like any truth it will also be alluded to indirectly as well.

    • What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul?
    • the soul that sins shall die

    This is enough to answer what you said above. But I add in more because there is a wealth of teaching on the human soul, destruction of the wicked, and eternal life of the righteous soul ONLY.

    • for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
    • hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
    • But transgressors will be altogether destroyed; The posterity of the wicked will be cut off.
    • He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.
    • What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath–prepared for destruction?
    • And death and Hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 
    • They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
    • I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.
    • I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
    • For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
    • and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
    • Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
    • Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things.
    • They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power
    • By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
    • For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Anyone who denies that the wicked will be destroyed, perish, forfeit their soul, die, or thrown into the Second Death that also destroys the present earth and heaven simply deny scripture and what it teaches regarding eternal judgment.

    Further, anyone who teaches that the wicked will also inherit eternal life, but in Hell, also goes against the scriptures on Judgement and Salvation. Because only the righteous inherit eternal life, only the righteous have their souls saved, and only the righteous will live.

    This teaching that says that both the righteous and wicked will have their soul exist for all eternity are not aligned with the scriptures on the important doctrine of eternal judgement. It is one of the foundational doctrines of the true faith (Hebrews 6).

    #789683
     terraricca 
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    davidl

    “And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” – Rev 20:10
    T8 – you teach that existence of the wicked is terminated in the lake of fire (second death), and yet this verse specifically says that the second death involves torment that lasts for ever and ever…!? [without end]

    Even if you change the word to mean ages and ages – how can this be seen as some sort of instant annihilation..??

    It is my conclusion that again you have manipulated the meaning of Scripture to suit your own teaching, (a doctrine based on human reasoning – and NOT according to the Spirit of God, who alone gives understanding).

    your scripture in Revelation 20;10 says;Rev 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    so my question to you will be “what do you think is “the lake of fire ?and why would it be standing forever and ever ?

    #789707
     miia 
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    I admire your dedication for the truth, t8.

    I gave up debating eternal conscious torment years ago when I learned most who defend ETC will not quit their beliefs (some will).

    I was once on a forum, and there were three or four of us defending truth. I was warned by PM that they ban those who defend this truth,and sure enough one by one they were banned for no reason. The place lost the spirit and eventually closed down.

    Seriously, I can’t understand their persistence.

     

     

    #789721
     dL 
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    T8 – you quote, the soul that sins shall die, as if this somehow proves something….when death itself is described as a state of separation – not extinction.

     

    As with the trinity debate, you lay claim to the support of many Scriptures which you think supports your viewpoint (a viewpoint that, as you have repeatedly verified, is not sourced through prayerful meditation, but through the workings of your own natural thinking – which unfortunately is fatal in gaining an apprehension of the truth).. the Scriptures you produce really prove nothing and only show that it is your understanding that is flawed..

     

    With all the months I spent on the trinity debate you could never once come up with your own rendering of John 1:1 – yet you would argue that the Bible translators got it wrong, and were either biased or mistaken in declaring that the Word was God…

     

    I ain’t gonna hang around this time and waste my breath – so please just give me your understanding of Rev 20:10 and how it fits with your teaching.

     

     

    #789722
     terraricca 
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    DavidL

    With all the months I spent on the trinity debate you could never once come up with your own rendering of John 1:1 – yet you would argue that the Bible translators got it wrong, and were either biased or mistaken in declaring that the Word was God…

    well if you believe it as it is written then it is poor english ;for how could someone be with himself and saying it for what purpose ?

    Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.

    and according to you then GOD HAS A BEGINNING ?right

    AND IF THE WORD WAS IN THE BEGINNING AND IN VERSE 2 IS CALLED “HE” THEN WOULD THIS MEAN THAT THE “HE” HIS GOD ?

    what you say ?

    #789728
     AndrewAD 
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    Why are there two deaths is a good question.Isn’t one enough? And  if nobody was ever really dead then what is a second death? except maybe more extreme torture from the terrible Jewish god? And why all this confusion? but to create more fear which is the greatest factor to manipulate and control people. ?

    If it’s appointed to men once to die and then the judgement,then just what does that mean? A judgement at death only to be followed by another judgement at some unknown time? I don’t pretend to be a authority on these things but i could be if I so decided to be.But I choose to be undecided.

    #789732
     t8 
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    Good post Andrew.

    #789733
     t8 
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    T8 – you quote, the soul that sins shall die, as if this somehow proves something….when death itself is described as a state of separation – not extinction.

    Yes it proves that the soul will die, just like the body.

    Physical death is when the body and soul are separated. The body doesn’t exist without the soul. The Second Death is when the soul is separated from God who is the God of the living and not the dead. Except your view is that the wicked soul  once separated are still living somehow without God’s spirit, and exist in Hell somehow, even though it has been put into the Lake of Fire. Does Hell survive the fire that burns up the heavens, earth, and wicked? Are the wicked made alive by electricity? Or do they possess the spirit and breath of God? How do you explain your bizarre belief?

    So how do the wicked live eternally in Hell, when:

    1. Hell is cast into the Second Death (Lake of Fire that consumes the Heavens and Earth).
    2. When the spirit that gives life is given back to God who gave it.

    Besides dozens or hundreds of scriptures that contradict your view, you only need to think this through, it is not hard. “The dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.”.

    God spirit is what gives life. They suffer “everlasting destruction and are shut out from the presence of the YHWH .” Otherwise God’s Spirit is in Hell keeping them alive and also being punished in an everlasting flame. Surely he withdraws his spirit from the wicked.

    If I cut off the power source of my computer for eternity, then that computer is just a dead bit off hardware (so to speak). If I burn that computer, then it is not even a bit of hardware anymore.

    Your view suggests a few things that are clearly contrary to scripture, prophecy, and the character of God. That somehow the soul of the wicked is eternal and living. i.e., they inherit eternal life too.

    Like the Sadducees and Pharisees before you, they neither repented of their beliefs, preferring instead to follow their traditions, even when their traditions were not favourable. e.g., the Sadducees didn’t believe in the resurrection of the dead. They persisted in this, even though deep down they probably would wish there was one.

    The Pharisees on the other hand, incorrectly held the view that the human soul was eternal. The truth in scripture reveals that a man’s soul can be saved and exist forever, but this is exclusively reserved for the righteous.

    I do realise DavidL, that not even scripture can change your view. That was true of the Pharisees and Sadducees. Also, they persecuted those who taught the truth, such as Jesus of Nazareth. You do the same by persecuting those who teach Jesus message.

    DavidL. you need to change from Saul to Paul. Paul taught that those who refuse the knowledge of God and the Gospel of Christ will be “punished with everlasting destruction.” They will be destroyed forever, no chance at life again. He also taught that there was one God the Father, and one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ, not one God the Father, Son, and Spirit.

    Up to you. Don’t listen to me, listen to the scriptures I give you.

    #789737
     dL 
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    T8 – again you try to reason out the spiritual dimension with your carnal understanding – which is why you end up teaching the same heresies as the cults… but since you are unable to accept truths outside of your own logical conclusions, it is you that has become locked into the same theological confinements as the Pharisees…

     

    All I ask is that you quit pontificating and give your understanding of Rev 20:10…

     

    “And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”

    #789742
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Andrew,

    The time specified is till the judgement.

    ONCE TO DIE AND THEN THE JUDGEMENT

    The second death is after the Judgement

    #789758
     dL 
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    (Thanks for your input Terraricca,  I was actually addressing t8)

     

    knowledge has become your god, your idol – yet if you sought God Himself you would gain real knowledge…true understanding instead of the rags of human reasoning that only puffs people up… like the Pharisees, you claim to see, and yet you are truly blind – locked up in the theological confinements of your own mind.. teaching as truth the fallacies of your own seemingly logical deductions..

     

    ..if someone came and unlocked your prison door, you would hide in the corner of your cell and say, No, this is my home – this is my world…I like it here.!

     

    In the story of Pilgrim’s Progress there is a man with a rake in his hands who was continually raking over the dirt looking for treasure, and yet above his head the angel held out a priceless crown of pure gold for him – but sadly it was crown never received, because he never looked up..!!

     

    When we look to our own logic and reason for answers, this is what we are like – we never find the reality because we are too busy working it out ourselves.. this is why truth is revealed to little children – and kept hidden from the wise and the learned.

    #789761
     AndrewAD 
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    Hi Nick,

    The second death is after the judgement? I thought perhaps the second death was the final judgement.

    So are you saying you think there are two judgements then? One at death then another at final judgement?

    I was speaking to a Christian friend about this and told him if one goes to heaven when he dies then there should be no fear of the final judgement since God surely wouldn’t take one to heaven only to send him to hell at the final judgement.

    Do you think people go to heaven with Christ upon death only to later be resurrected into the eternal kingdom upon earth? or just what?

    #789762
     terraricca 
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    DavidL

    knowledge has become your god, your idol – yet if you sought God Himself you would gain real knowledge…true understanding instead of the rags of human reasoning that only puffs people up… like the Pharisees, you claim to see, and yet you are truly blind – locked up in the theological confinements of your own mind.. teaching as truth the fallacies of your own seemingly logical deductions..

    ..if someone came and unlocked your prison door, you would hide in the corner of your cell and say, No, this is my home – this is my world…I like it here.!

    In the story of Pilgrim’s Progress there is a man with a rake in his hands who was continually raking over the dirt looking for treasure, and yet above his head the angel held out a priceless crown of pure gold for him – but sadly it was crown never received, because he never looked up..!!

    When we look to our own logic and reason for answers, this is what we are like – we never find the reality because we are too busy working it out ourselves.. this is why truth is revealed to little children – and kept hidden from the wise and the learned.

    sorry to have disturbed you ,

    all what you say can really said to you without omitting anything of it ,so this nonsense talk does not do anything for the glory of god what I serve and his son jesus christ ,

    and no my knowledge is not my god but OF MY GOD big difference

    #789764
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Andrew,

    Two judgements??

     

    Those in Christ Jesus are not in the final judgement as they have already passed over from death to life.[jn5]

    They face the tribunal of Christ Paul wrote about and shown in Mt 25 14-30

    The details of the judgement of the remainder are shown in Mt 25 31-46

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