Who is Jesus?

This topic contains 2,355 replies, has 70 voices, and was last updated by  NickHassan 5 months, 2 weeks ago.

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  • #3618
     SearchingForTheTruth 
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    T8,
    I agree with you on who this is refering to. But may we keep in mind the dates that Eze. is talking about. He is seeing a vision of the future just as John did. 6th Year etc. I dont have the resources here to look up the scriputures but it seems that he is refering to the end of times. Seven is the number of completness throughout the bible so when he refers to the 6th year he is talking about the end of time.

    GOD BLESS

    #3609
     t8 
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    I will reply soon.
    For now I will carry across Hebrews 1:1-3 from the trinity post.

    1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
    2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
    3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven

    The point here is that verse 2 and 3 are talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son). So does this show us that the son pre-existed as the son?

    #3624
     t8 
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    To SearchingForTheTruth

    You said that the quote In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day in Ezekiel is referring to the future i.e the 6th millennium. I do not see it this way for the following reasons.

    The mentioned date is normal and consistent with the other books of the prophets. The dates usually refer to the year of the current King. Some books are specific about this, others just give the year and some do not give a date at all. But either way I have never heard that the  dates in these books are used in the context of a millenia time line, i.e From Adam to the present, with each thousand years as one day or one year as you are using it. However, I know that one day can mean one thousand years in some prophecies, especially Revelation and I know that some think that the creation of the world in six days is talking about six thousand years. They use the following scripture to support this: 'One day is a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day to the LORD'. But I have never heard such language used in a historical record like the indication of when a vision took place, as we find in the books of the prophets.

    I have decided to quote the first verse of other Old Testament books so we can get a context of how these dates are applied in these books.

    Here are some examples:

    Ezekiel 1
    1 In the thirtieth year, in the fourth month on the fifth day, while I was among the exiles by the Kebar River, the heavens were opened and I saw visions of God.
    Now, if we interpret Ezekiel 8:1-3 'the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day' as being the sixth millennium, then to be consistent, Ezekiel 1 must be talking about the thirtieth millennium, which is impossible.

    More examples below to get a feel for the context in which such dates are used.

    Ezra 1:1
    In the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, in order to fulfill the word of the LORD spoken by Jeremiah, the LORD moved the heart of Cyrus king of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his realm and to put it in writing:

    Nehemiah 1:1
    The words of Nehemiah son of Hacaliah: In the month of Kislev in the twentieth year, while I was in the citadel of Susa,
    Note: we would have to assume this is the 20th millennium, using the same logic.

    Jeremiah 1:2
    The word of the LORD came to him in the thirteenth year of the reign of Josiah son of Amon king of Judah,

    Daniel 1:1
    In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came to Jerusalem and besieged it.

    Hosea 1:1
    The word of the LORD that came to Hosea son of Beeri during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and during the reign of Jeroboam son of Jehoash king of Israel:

    Amos 1:1
    The words of Amos, one of the shepherds of Tekoa-what he saw concerning Israel two years before the earthquake, when Uzziah was king of Judah and Jeroboam son of Jehoash [1] was king of Israel.

    Micah 1:1
    The word of the LORD that came to Micah of Moresheth during the reigns of Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah-the vision he saw concerning Samaria and Jerusalem.

    Zephaniah 1:1
    The word of the LORD that came to Zephaniah son of Cushi, the son of Gedaliah, the son of Amariah, the son of Hezekiah, during the reign of Josiah son of Amon king of Judah:

    Haggai 1:1
    In the second year of King Darius, on the first day of the sixth month, the word of the LORD came through the prophet Haggai to Zerubbabel son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, and to Joshua son of Jehozadak, the high priest:

    Zechariah 1:1
    In the eighth month of the second year of Darius, the word of the LORD came to the prophet Zechariah son of Berekiah, the son of Iddo:

    As you can see, in nearly all cases, it is specifically referring to the reigning year of the current king and I assume where it doesn't mention a King, that it is still referring to the reigning year of the current King. Anyway if there is something here that I am missing and you need to reply to this subject, then I think it would probably pay to start up a new topic, so this one doesn't get side tracked.

    Anyway I will post again soon with regards to more scriptures that indicate that the Son of Man existed in Old Testament times.

    #3610
     t8 
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    Here is a scripture that could be referring to the Son of God. I have heard many say it is because they believe the Angel of the Lord is the Son of God, but it I admit that it could be just an Angel however, such as Michael or Gabriel.

    I would like to explore the identity of the Angel of the Lord at some stage.

    Daniel 3
    24   Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astounded and stood up in haste; he said to his high officials, “Was it not three men we cast bound into the midst of the fire?” They replied to the king, “Certainly, O king.”
    25   He said, “Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods!
    26   Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the door of the furnace of blazing fire; he responded and said, “Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego, come out, you servants of the Most High God, and come here!” Then Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego came out of the midst of the fire.
    27   The satraps, the prefects, the governors and the king's high officials gathered around and saw in regard to these men that the  fire had no effect on the bodies of these men nor was the hair of their head singed, nor were their trousers damaged, nor had the smell of fire even come upon them.
    28   Nebuchadnezzar responded and said, “Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego, who has sent His angel and delivered His servants who put their trust in Him, violating the king's command, and yielded up their bodies so as not to serve or worship any god except their own God.

    #3600
     SearchingForTheTruth 
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    T8,

    Point taken on that could imply that it is the son of God. Explicitly though we know its a divine being just unsure of who. I have heard the argument from KJV only advocates that it is the son of God. Which they rightfully state because the King James Version does say Son of God instead of Sons of the Gods. I dont think the KJV translated it correctly seeing how no other version translates it as such. I wouldnt have a problem excepting all the Angel apearances throughout the bible being Jesus if I could get proof that
    1. Jesus was a pre-exsistent angel.
    2. Jesus pre-existed.(which is what we are arguing at this point anyways)

    At this point I would also like to state that there are two types of arguments that all of us use that I am sure you are aware of; Implicit and Explicit. Of course we know that explicit verses hold the most weight because they are taken at face value and implicit verses can be formed fit to apply to doctrine but can also be taken in other context such as the passage that you stated above. My explicit argument for Jesus not pre-existing has to do with the birth of Jesus in Matthew and Luke. They explicitly tell us that Jesus came into existance at his human birth. I feel that the book of John seems to imply a pre-existance but can be cleared up with the proper understanding of John’s writing style in which I will address in my next post.

    GOD BLESS

    #3619
     t8 
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    I have a question:

    “How is it that they say the Christ is the Son of David? David himself declares in the Book of Psalms:
    The Lord said to my Lord:
          “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”

    David calls him 'Lord.' How then can he be his son?”

    #3601
     SearchingForTheTruth 
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    T8,
    Can he not be his Lord and son thru bloodline? Mary called him Lord, is she not his mother? In that particular verse, it is used by Jesus a few times in the New Testament. Jesus uses that to prove his superiority to all. Just because your superior dosnt mean you are older or came first. Preemience in position is the emphasis, not age. Just my thoughts.
    GOD BLESS

    #3625
     t8 
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    How do you explain the following verses:
    Some I have already mentioned.

    John 1
    15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' ”
    16 From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
    18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

    1:18 Or the Only Begotten
    1:18 Some manuscripts but the only (or only begotten) Son

    John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him. So this verse shows a pre-existance.

    John 8:58
    “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

    Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham, so it is not really hard for me to believe that he was the firstborn in status and in lineage (the 2 usually go together, except in unusual circumstances).

    It seems obvious to me at least that Jesus was the Word and was with God in the beginning and he existed as an Elohim.

    John 1:1
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    John 1:14
    The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.  

    The next verse is clear about Christs pre-existance in glory.

    John 17
    5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    We also know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and it is assumed that Jesus gave the Law. We are also told in Acts:7:30-39 that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the  living words (The Law) to Moses.  

    We are then told in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4

    1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
    2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
    3 They all ate the same spiritual food
    4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

    So the Angel of the Lord is identified as Christ by Paul and this Angel delivered the Law to Moses.

    Ephesians 3
    8 Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
    9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
    10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,

    Perhaps another scripture alluding to Jesus being the 'Wisdom of God'.

    Hebrews 1
    1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
    2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

    The word universe in this scripture means AGE.

    aion {ahee-ohn'}
    1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
    2) the worlds, universe
    3) period of time, age

    We even use the word 'aion' (eon or aeon) in English to refer to Age. So if we read the last part of this verse as AGE, we get the following:
    appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the age.

    John 3
    17 For God did not send (apostello) his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

    apostello {ap-os-tel'-lo}
    1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed
    2) to send away, dismiss
    2a) to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty
    2b) to order one to depart, send off
    2c) to drive away

    There is no mention of the word sent meaning born. It is used in the sense of being sent. To be sent surely implies existance. In fact this word is similar in meaning and sound to the word Apostle (apostolos), which means “one sent forth with orders”.

    Philippians 2
    5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
    6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
    7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

    Surely the above verse assumes pre-existance.

    Luke 10:18
    He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

    When did Jesus see Satan fall from Heaven? Before or after his birth on earth?

    (edited 17-June-03)

    #3602
     GJG 
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    Well done all, a very interesting subject indeed!————This is my first time writing so here goes!
    So far with all that I have read, the closest to scriptural truth seems to be T8 due to the lack of confusing contradictions.  We must all remember that the mystery (God manifest in the flesh) was revealed to Paul and the saints of the early church Eph 3:3-9  Col 1:26.
    In his earlier years Saul(now Paul) was taught my the great teacher Gamellio regarding  the one true living God.  So that Saul believed with all his heart that he was serving God while persecuting the believers of Christ.  However on his way to Damascus Saul had the opportunity to ask his one true God this question:Who are you? Acts 9:5…I AM JESUS…simple.  {if you were to be asked the same question I’m sure you would reply with your own name!}
    Now that God almighty has revealed his only true personal name being Jesus, let us see how Jesus himself answered when he was also asked the same question.
    John 8:23-25 shows us that Jesus is again making a point that he and his father(God) are one and the same.  When asked directly Who are you? Jesus wisely redirects them to scripture of old Isa 41:21-22 (it would have acheived little if they were given the name of the man standing before them).  
    Obviously we all know we would be able to gather a huge number of scripture that shows God to be Jesus, which should also remind us that never before did God have a personal name till the birth of Jesus as this was the one time that God was manifest in created substance;man, a PERSON!  This now raises the question of the Man-God Jesus.  By now I expect some readers will be thinking :what about this…what about that…! Read on!
    To understand Jesus being the name of God we must first understand WHAT God is to then believe WHO God is.   Look these up: Col1:15  1Tim1:17  Heb11:27  Deut33:27  Jer23:24  John4:24 so we now have a simple description of WHAT God is: The Invisible, Eternal, Omnipresent  Spirit that inhabits all of creation!  There is obviously room for only ONE such being!
    The Holy Ghost or Spirit of God is again the very same substance that is God, also this Spirit of God is the same Spirit of Christ 1Pet1:11  1John3:24,4:12-13  Phil1:19.  This same Jesus Christ is refered to as the image of the invisible God Col1:14-15.  Again this Jesus who was recieved up into glory is refered to as God 1Tim3:16.
    So we can easily see that the Holy Ghost is not a separate person (spirit is different substance to a person anyway) but rather, the indwelling substance that is the Spirit of God is the very same substance that inhabits all creation!  
    Lets get back to the MAN-GOD Jesus.  Fully man and fully human is as the scripture rightly puts it: controversial.  Yet if God’s word says it, than we must look at accepting it as absolute truth.  The combination MAN-GOD seems to denote a certain dual nature about Jesus.  As a man he: ate, slept, cried, bled, just like you and I do, yet this mans flesh was pure and without sin.  So that as a created living creature, God could now become that unblemished sacrificial lamb to take away that sin that once seperated us from Him.  When Jesus performed miracles, it was the God within him doing the things which no mere mortal could do.  DIVINITY clothed in HUMANITY!  To believe this we must first find sripture that emphatically agrees with this: Col1:19,2:9.  So now we understand that when the man Jesus prayed, it was his HUMANITY having a need that only his DIVINITY could address.  The substance within Jesus is the very same God of the old testament, unchanging.  
    We now see the one, unchanging, almighty God for what He is, but more importantly who He is, for this reason the scripture tells us: Acts 4:12
    Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
    KJV

    Looking forward to the responses
       

    #3620
     GJG 
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    Hi all

    I’m new to this so I will probably make some mistakes…such as this:

    I put in a post saying i thought that t8 was on the right track,however after reading some other t8 posts I feel I was completely wrong in making that assumption!!

    Sorry guys!

    But I still enjoy reading all the posts because they are so varied and challenging. I mean not to offend you t8.

    look forward to replies!

    #3603
     GJG 
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    Hi all!

    Well done t8 regarding your interesting posts.

    Eternal Jesus?—————– Common sense tells us that in order for one to be a father, one must first produce offspring. For there to be a begotten, there must first again be a begetter! Co-eternal, co-equal as the trinity puts it, not only goes against common sense, but denies scriptual truth.

    All the supposed evidence that supports the so called eternal Jesus is plain and simple: lack of understanding!

    An eternal being that also died makes a total mockery of the true meaning of ETERNAL!

    Remember: For a living being to die, it must first be mortal just as death comes only after birth.

    Please refer to my previous post regarding the man-God Jesus, specifically the way in which His divinity was clothed in divinity.

    As always: Look forward to replies.

    #3621
     GJG 
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    Hi again!

    OOPS! I meant to write ‘His humanity clothed in divinity’

    I’ll get the hang of this posting thing soon!

    carry on……………..

    #3611
     t8 
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    To GJG,

    However on his way to Damascus Saul had the opportunity to ask his one true God this question:Who are you? Acts 9:5…I AM JESUS…simple.  {if you were to be asked the same question I'm sure you would reply with your own name!}

    The way that you have interpreted this, is to say that Paul was asking God for his name. But this is not true. Jesus talked to Paul and asked why he was persecuting him. In that context Paul asked who he was speaking too and acknowleged him as Lord, not God. So your basis for saying that God's name is Jesus is flawed in my opinion.

    Also you say that there are a lot of scriptures that show that Jesus is God. I don't believe this to be so. When you study the scriptures, it becomes obvious that there are a lot of scriptures that say that Jesus is the Son of God, the Christ. But to say that the scriptures say that he is God in many places is incorrect. It simply doesn't say this anywhere.

    Anyway I look forward to yur reply as iron sharpens iron and if we truly search for the truth, then we will also humble ourselves when presented with truth. In other words our reputation should be protected, but not at the expense of truth itself.

    Thanks for your input so far.

    BTW: You can edit your posts. If you make a grammatical or spelling error, then simply click on the edit button to correct.

    #3626
     t8 
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    Luke 3:23-38
    23 Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph,
    24 the son of Heli, the son of Matthat,
    the son of Levi, the son of Melki,
    the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph, ……………………..
    38 the son of Kenan, the son of Enosh,
    the son of Seth, the son of Adam,
    the son of God.

    Now notice how this genealogy is in sequence of time and starts from Jesus Christ and travels backward in time to Joseph and right the way to Adam. After Adam it mentions the Son of God.

    My question is this: Is the Son of God mentioned in verse 38, Yeshua/Jesus or Adam?

    I think it is Adam, but does anyone differ with that view and if so, why?

    #3627
     ringo111 
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    Much Respect to t8

    But something I want to clear up Which was in t8's First post Page one-

    Which was a Claim that Jesus Is the wisdom in Proverbs- Which i find to be untrue.

    There are two types of wisdom-

    (1)The actions someone takes because of what they think is best. (Wisdom)
    (2)The Creature GoD created (Wisdom).

    First-
    (1)The actions someone takes because of what they think is best. (Wisdom)

    Micah 6:9
    Listen! The LORD is calling to the city- and to fear your name is wisdom- “Heed the rod and the One who appointed it.

    *To fear GoD's name is Wisdom-

    Luke 11:49
    Because of this, God in his wisdom said, 'I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.'

    1 Corinthians 1:19
    For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”

    Luke 21:15
    For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict.

    James 3:15
    Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil.

    James 3:17
    But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace­loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere.

    1 Corinthians 1:30
    It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

    *You see that Jesus Is not Wisdom- By believing and obeying his teaching- we can be rightous, holy, and redeemed.

    Revelation 5:12
    In a loud voice they sang: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!”

    *Here we have Jesus Receiving Wisdom- as well as power, wealth, strength, honor , glory, and praise.

    ***********************************

    Before i move to point (2) I want to proove this in scripture

    It says the following quote before the creature (wisdom) is introduced in prov 4:6.

    Proverbs 3:19
    By wisdom the LORD laid the earth's foundations, by understanding he set the heavens in place;

    Genesis 2:4
    This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created. When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens-

    Isaiah 45
    12 It is I who made the earth
    and created mankind upon it.
    My own hands stretched out the heavens;
    I marshaled their starry hosts.

    Revelation 14:7
    He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

    Finally Jesus Testimony.

    Mark 13:19
    because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now–and never to be equaled again.

    *******************************
    On to (2)

    (2) (wisdom) The creature that GoD created.

    Proverbs 4:6
    6 Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you;
    love her, and she will watch over you.

    Proverbs 7:4
    Say to wisdom, “You are my sister,” and call understanding your kinsman;

    *Why say wisdom is Jesus??? Is jesus is a woman??? No!! he is not!! – Also- who is understanding?? why am i calling he my kinsman??- For if Wisdom was ment to be Jesus Wouldnt understanding also be someone?? Id say wisdom is just what She says she is- straight out wisdom.

    Proverbs 8:1
    Does not wisdom call out? Does not understanding raise her voice?

    *Well. Doesnt she??

    Proverbs 8:12
    “I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence; I possess knowledge and discretion.

    *If wisdom is jesus who is prudence?? also, remember understanding.

    ———————————–
    ———————————–

    Now this is Jesus Testimony about the creature/spirit (Wisdom)

    Luke 7:33-35
    33For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, 'He has a demon.' 34The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and “sinners.” ' 35But wisdom is proved right by all her children.”

    Matthew 11:19
    The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and “sinners.” ' But wisdom is proved right by her actions.”

    *Wisdom- proved by “Her” actions!!

    Isaiah 11:2
    The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD –

    Luke 2:40
    And the child grew and became strong; he was filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was upon him.

    *You see the spirit of wisdom was given to Jesus- That is how we learn from Her- Like Jesus learnt from her.

    Keep Searching yo ^_^

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