December 8, 2004 at 9:02 am #4823t8Participant
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Does man have a body, soul and spirit?
If so, what part of a man is our identity?
Does Jesus have a body soul and spirit?
I read through the posts quickly but haven't had much time lately, so I haven't been able to take everything in.December 8, 2004 at 8:29 pm #4828
Just a thought or two from 1Cor 2.10
“…for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the SPIRIT OF THE MAN, which is IN HIM..
…but we have the mind of Christ”
So what does this say about man?
He has his own spirit.
It lives in him.
It knows his thoughts.
Does that then include conscience and insight? These are from the breath of God and may lead to righteousness but they are not the mind as they know the mind. That would fit with the idea that God has equipped everyone with sufficient ability to recognise His work in creation and the difference between good and bad?
That leaves heart and mind and personality as soul?December 9, 2004 at 12:37 am #4833
Ecclesiastes is a great book. It is scripture and seems to look always from a human perspective.
In 12.7 it says speaking of death
” and the dust returns to the earth as it once was and the breath of life returns to God who gave it”
But in 3.21 it had said speaking of animals and man
” Both go to the same place;both were made from the dust and to the dust they both return. Who knows if the life breath of the children of men goes up ward and the life breath of beasts go earthward?”
Job 34.14-15 also gives some insight about God
” If He were to take back His spirit to Himself, withdraw to Himself his breath, all flesh would perish and man would return to the dust”
All the writer of Ecclesiastes knew is that something happens at death that leaves a body empty of life. We cannot know from his statement that the spirit returns to God can we?December 9, 2004 at 3:21 am #4840
Your second reference suggests some will not be resurrected “God can restrict that person from being alive again” and “That is the second death”
Sorry but that view is misguided. All will be resurrected, according to the Word of God, some in the first blessed resurrection and the rest to face the white throne judgement, of the sheep and goats, at the second resurrection.
“..and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1000yrs were completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection;over these the second death has no power..”
Do you agree?December 9, 2004 at 3:38 am #4841
ps Adam Pastor .Your book p 22 makes the same error suggesting destruction of life in Gehenna is an alternative to resurrection. All are resurrected-do you agree?December 9, 2004 at 4:03 am #4842
Hi Adam Pastor,
Just because death in scripture is described as sleep, does not mean sleep is a synonym for death. It is not an allegory but a fact. It surely means what it says-sleep- but not absence of life.
You have described beings after death in a previous post as Nephesh but your writer says “never do these words describe anything that survives the death of the body”
Why does he talk at all of the body if there is no such thing apart from the soul?
Scripture never says ,as your writer does, that the whole person is of the dust of the ground and is dissolved at death with the reversal of creation. Man, as body, and animals ,as body, return to the dust of the ground but the breath of God blown into them that made them become living beings was never of the dust was it?
Without the breath of God all would still be just lifeless body as Job 34 tells us would happen if that breath was withdrawn.
Do you agree?December 9, 2004 at 7:22 am #4854t8Participant
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Taken from the Logos discussion and put here as promised.
I see it like this:
We are our soul. That is who we are, our identity.
What we are is flesh (man), that is our nature.
We have awareness because the Spirit of God has given us life.
So the Spirit is of God is a part of God that God can take back for himself. But the Spirit of God that we recieve when we are sanctified is God's eternal Spirit.
The soul is who we are. Perhaps the area of our will, character and personality.
The body is the vessel that contains the soul and lets us interact with the physical realm because the body we have is physical and of this world.
So the spirit that God gives us in the beginning is his breath which gives us awareness and life. But baptism in God's Spirit makes us one with him so that our spirit the spirit that he gave us will be one in unity with his Spirit and this makes us pure in spirit and one with God.
The spirit is the God conscience part of us and what gives us life.
The soul is the self concious part of us.
The body is the world conscious part of us.
It is our soul (us) and spirit (from God) that God saves and he does this by renewing the spirit inside our soul by joining us with his Spirit. We are eventually given a spirtual body to make us complete.
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
And my soul shall be joyful in the LORD: it shall rejoice in his salvation.
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
This is my take and I open open for correction as I want to learn.December 9, 2004 at 7:56 am #4855
I love that Romans 8 scripture. It has shown me I was wrong about that aspect. thanksDecember 9, 2004 at 9:54 am #4856Adam PastorMember
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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 09 2004,03:38) ps Adam Pastor .Your book p 22 makes the same error suggesting destruction of life in Gehenna is an alternative to resurrection. All are resurrected-do you agree?
All are resurrected!
The author of the book believes this as well.
All he is saying, (just as in Dan 12:2) is that; some will be resurrected to enjoy life in the [resurrection] age i.e. the age to come (which incidentally is exactly what zoe aionios means, life in the age to come; poorly translated as 'everlasting/eternal life' in the KJV)
or some will be resurrected to be condemned to Gehenna, which will mean their total destruction i.e. they will receive punishment in the age to come (which is the meaning of the words, kolasis aionios, punishment in the age to come, Mt 25.46, terribly translated as 'everlasting punishment').
Sorry, the quote wasn't clearer.December 9, 2004 at 7:57 pm #4857
Thanks Adam Pastor,
The question about the inflated balloon was not meant to be flippant. Not only could some see it as a localised collection of compressed air but others may say it is a solid ovoid object.
Both are right but neither are right.
The first knows only about the contents but does not describe the view or texture and the second goes only on what can be seen and touched.
Both ignore the fact that an vessel is filled with a gas. Applied to man I see great problems amalgamating body and soul as it distorts the nature of both. Of course the allegory relates to the frailty and insignificance yet vital importance of the container. And it relates to death too on the release of the contents when the balloon bursts or deflates leaving a ruined vessel.
If you see man as this combined entity with the 'life principle' which returns to God then where does the personality, mind and heart of man reside and what happens to them at death?December 10, 2004 at 7:19 pm #4869
From the post in trinity dvpt. I presume you are asking what is the spirit of natural man.
We know from 1 Thess 5 that we are complete as body, soul and spirit.
We know from Gen 2.7 that God breathed into man and he became a living being. So all of us except the body is of the breath of God.
Now when man had been fully created he was told not to eat of the tree in the middle of the garden of Eden.
Gen 2.16″ The Lord God gave this order
'You are free to eat from any of the trees of the garden except the tree of knowledge of good and bad. From that tree you shall not eat;the moment that you eat from it you are surely doomed to die' …..
The woman saw that the tree was good for food, pleasing to the eyes and desirable for gaining wisdom. So she took some of the fruit and ate it;and she also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.
Then the eyes of both of them were opened and they realised they were naked..”
What is the knowledge of good and bad? conscience!
What else did they gain through eating the fruit? Self consciousness.
I only found this today so it corrects what I recently wrote still further.
So looking again at 1 Cor 2.11 the work of our spirit is to “know a man's innermost self” That includes knowing the mind as v 16 tells us. That means it isn't that self, which is soul. Neither is it conscience.
As we saw it seems man was created without a conscience or inner law. As the Word says [Rom 5.13] if there is no law no sin is imputed but through law came death to man by his own hand!
Who can add here?December 10, 2004 at 11:06 pm #4879
ps. by self consciousness I do not mean self awareness which is of the spirit. I mean the sense of self judgement. Man was naked-so what? His new knowledge seemed to judge that as sin so they covered themselves.December 10, 2004 at 11:16 pm #4880
pps. Also 1 cor 2 tells us the role of the Spirit in relationship to God and compares it with the relationship of man to his spirit. So we should be able to draw conclusions then from teachings about the Spirit to learn about our spirit?
eg” God is at work in us to will and to do”
tells us that our spirit also gives us choice and motivation?December 11, 2004 at 9:20 pm #4890
If you look closely at your quoted sources there is a problem.
Yes the same word can be translated “life” as “soul”.And there are several verses given where it clearly means natural human life.
But they also say it means “eternal life”.
So do you say these terms are equivalent too, natural life and eternal life??December 11, 2004 at 11:22 pm #4891
ps English is so inadequate .There are many greek words interpreted as “life” including “psuche”-“5590”. The word “zoe”-“2222” occurs over 130 times in the NT but in only 2 or 3 does it possibly mean anything but the new and eternal life.
In Mk 3 Jesus spoke of natural life when he said about healing the man with the withered hand.
” Is it permitted to do a good deed on the Sabbath-or an evil one? To preserve life[psuche] -or to destroy it?”
even Jesus spoke of his human life in this way in Mk 10.45
” The Son of Man has not come to be served but to serve-to give his life [psuche] in ransom for the many”
But “eternal life” NEVER uses “psuche” but only “zoe” as when the rich man in Mk 10.17 asked” what must I do to inherit eternal life[zoe]”
In John 10 Jesus 3 times talked about laying down his life[psuche]for the sheepbut in verse 28 says
” I give them eternal life [zoe] and they shall never perish”
So it seems that while psuche can mean 'life' it can never mean 'eternal life' as your reference claims. Do you agree?
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