What is Man?

This topic contains 261 replies, has 17 voices, and was last updated by  NickHassan 11 hours, 49 minutes ago.

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  • #4510
     NickHassan 
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    Of course if Jesus, the man from heaven, had a heavenly body then he must have preexisted in heaven. Otherwise these verses make no sense.

    His glory far exceeded that of the angels and we will share that glorious new form. We have not seen this heavenly body so it must have been part of what he shed to assume our likeness? It does make it easier to grasp that we were made in his likeness too.

    #4511
     NickHassan 
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    No, I am not sure that I was right there. Because the natural came first, not the spiritual. Of course the Son of God did not become man till his physical birth. So the body of the heavenly man would not have been formed till he was resurrected? So his initial heavenly form may be different to that after his resurrection?
    I am getting out of my depth so give us a hand.

    #4513
     t8 
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    If all things were created through Christ, then he pre-existed Heaven (if Heaven is created). I would of thought that a body is a vehicle that gives you access to a realm. E.g. A body from earth for earth and a body from heaven for heaven.

    So perhaps before creation Christ didn't have a body, but was a Spirit. Not sure of this and I am only speculating here.

    What form if any, the Logos had I do not know, but I know that the Logos was WITH God in the beginning and came from God.

    For us the physical comes first, then the Spiritual. But I am not sure if that is the order for Christ. After all he came from above to begin with, whereas we come from here and are translated upward.

    He inherited the highest position, whereas we are rewarded with postion for our good works that sit on the true foundation.

    #4516
     Adam Pastor 
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    Hmmm! Beginning to see it now are you!

    That's right. The natural came first. Paul has no notion of a pre-existent Christ as an angelic being, spiritual creature; a living being of some kind called the Logos or such like.

    NO! Christ's beginning was in the womb of Mary …
    Miraculous conception, nonetheless, a man.

    Christ existed after Adam.
    Paul juxtaposes the two because they were both on equal terms.
    Both miraculously created without sin.
    Adam, whilst sinless, was tempted … sadly he yielded to sin.
    Christ, also sinless, was tempted … he overcame
    Where the first Adam failed, the last Adam succeeded.

    The last Adam now resurrected, immortalized, and glorified, has been made a life-giving spirit.

    However, in the order of things, Adam came first … obviously, being the first ever (hu)man
    In the fulness of time [Gal 4.4], as recorded by Luke (3:23,38); Christ was born, the Last Adam, who is NOW a life-giving spirit.

    The first ever man, Adam, was made of the dust of the earth, earthy.
    The second man, Christ, was made of a woman by the power of GOD … he is the Lord who will come FROM HEAVEN … he is hence, heavenly.

    If one takes plainly what 1 Cor 15.46 says …  Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

    It is obvious that Paul, did not believe that the Last Adam pre-existed the First!!! He had no such concept.
    1 Cor 15.46 alone should refute the so-called personal pre-existence of Christ.

    That is why, you may feel you're getting out of your depth … or why there is the need for speculation.
    Because this verse does refute the idea of Christ literally pre-existing Adam.

    Fortunately, for the both of you … there is another option

    :;): :)

    #4520
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Adam Pastor,
    Neither Adam, nor Jesus, nor us are only bodies. This scripture addresses only the flesh.

    #4522
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Adam Pastor,
    Which is more important body or spirit?
    Pauln said of the lustful sinner in 1 Cor 5.3
    ” United in Spirit with you and empowered by our Lord Jesus I hand him over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the Day of the Lord”
    1 Peter1.24
    ” All mankind is grass and the glory of men is like the flower of the field. The grass withers, the flower wilts, but the word of the Lord endures forever”

    Our time in the flesh is only an short opportunity to grasp eternity in Jesus.
    “The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak”
    ” It is the spirit that gives life : the flesh is useless”
    1 Cor 3.2
    ” I fed you with milk and did not give you solid food because you were not ready for it. You are not ready for it even now, being very much in a natural condition? For as long as there are jealousy and quarrels among you are you not OF THE FLESH. And is not your behavior that of ordinary Men? When someone says'I belong to Paul ' and someone else says 'I belong ton Apollos' is it not clear that you are still AT THE HUMAN LEVEL?”

    Why highlight the least relevant aspect of our life-the FLESH?

    #4524
     NickHassan 
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    ps
    Rom 8.5f ” For those who are according to the FLESH, set their minds on the things of the FLESH, but those who are according to the Spirit,the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the FLESH is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the FLESH is hostile to God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God , for it is not even able to do so and those who are in the FLESH cannot please God.

    However you are not in the FLESH but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

    But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you ,He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will aklso give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who indwells you.

    So then ,brethren, we are under obligation, not to the FLESH , to live according to the FLESH -for if you are living according to the FLESH you must die: but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body you will live, for all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God”

    Does the flesh control our lives or bring glory
    Rom 6.3f
    “Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptised into Christ Jesus have been baptised into his death?Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death, in oprder that ,as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

    For we have become united to him in the likeness of his death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of his resurrection. Knowing this , that our old self was crucified with him , that our old BODY of sin might be done away with , that we should no longer be slaves of sin: for he who has died is freed from sin””

    #4694
     NickHassan 
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    Hi ,
    One of the features of the NT is that Jesus and his followers healed those oppressed by evil spirits and the book of Mark features many of these. It would appear that demons cause physical and mental illnesses.
    In Lk 11 Jesus said
    ” When an unclean spirit goes out of a man it passes through waterless places seeking rest and not finding any, it says
    'I will return to my house from which I came '
    And when it comes it finds it swept and put in order. Then it goes and takes along seven other spirits more evil than itself and they go in and live there; and the last state of the man becomes worse than the first”

    So demons think and organise and can communicate with one another. They prefer to occupy people. They hate water[?baptism]They believe they own the person they live in which is as a vessel or home to them. A person freed from a demon is very vulnerable to repossession, and more so than those who are free it would appear. Why is this? Perhaps because a person thus affected has had his own spirit so damaged or incapacitated. Perhaps doubts have destroyed the defences?The other message I am sure that is in here is that such a freed man needs to be saved and be filled with the Holy Spirit to stay safe?
    What do others think?

    #4750
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Adam Pastor,
    We know we are body ,soul and spirit from 1Thes 5. So when Adam was created in Gen 2.7
    ” And the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground[BODY]And breathed into his nostrils the breath of life ;and man became a living [SPIRIT] soul [SOUL]”
    So the body of Jesus was no different to ours. It too had to be made of the dust of the ground so he was conceived of Mary and new creation-the second Adam.
    But soul [person] and spirit [spark of life] are of the breath God.
    Gen 1.26 says
    “Then God says' Let us make man in our image, after our likeness' “
    We are made in the image of God and His Son. The Father  has no body so any similarity with Him can only be in soul and or spirit.
    So if Jesus existed as spirit and soul [Logos]in a heavenly body then there is no problem in him shedding that body and coming to inhabit his natural human body.

    1 Cor 15 talks about Adam being the first man and Jesus being the second it is plain that Paul was only talking about the natural human body.
    45″..Adam, the first man, BECAME a living soul..”
    47″..the first man WAS OF EARTH, FORMED FROM DUST,the second IS from heaven.Earthly men are like the man of earth, heavenly men are like the man of heaven.”

    So no conclusions about Jesus life with the Father can be drawn from these verses. Adam was the first to live in a natural body and Jesus is the second Adam to inhabit a human body. The natural came first before the spiritual. It says, however, Jesus IS from heaven and HAD a spiritual body but shed it to take a human body. We hope to gain a heavenly body like the one Jesus had in heaven prior to his coming to earth and regained it when he went back to his Father.

    Can you understand what I am getting at? Do you agree or have I erred?

    #4752
     Adam Pastor 
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    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 04 2004,22:46)

    So if Jesus existed as spirit and soul [Logos]in a heavenly body then there is no problem in him shedding that body and coming to inhabit his natural human body.

    Adam was the first to live in a natural body and Jesus is the second Adam to inhabit a human body. The natural came first before the spiritual. It says, however, Jesus IS from heaven and HAD a spiritual body but shed it to take a human body. We hope to gain a heavenly body like the one Jesus had in heaven prior to his coming to earth and regained it when he went back to his Father.

    Can you understand what I am getting at? Do you agree or have I erred?


    You have greatly erred.
    What you are giving here is a classic defintion of reincarnation
    To shed one body to inhabit another is reincarnation … that is Eastern paganism

    The Scriptures teach resurrection not reincarnation.

    Besides, one cannot use 1 Thess 5.23 to define what man is made up of i.e. (3 parts), spirit, soul and body
    Otherwise, using that logic, I could take Mark 12.30 and say that man is made up of 4 parts,
    i.e. heart, soul, mind, strength!
    Or I could take Heb 4.12 and say that man is made up of 4 parts, soul, body, joints, marrow!
    These verses are not giving us biology lessons of what man consists of. NO!
    Mark 12.30 is simply saying poetically, to love GOD with everything, with your whole being
    Heb 4.12 is simply saying poetically, that the word of GOD can get to the very core of the matter
    Likewise, 1 Thess 5.23 is simply saying poetically, may GOD sanctify you and preserve you completely, preserve your whole being

    The scriptures already define what we are … living souls
    When we die  … seeing that souls can die e.g. Ezek 18.4, 20; 13.19, Rev 16.3; Gen 17.14, Exo 12.15, 31.14, Lev 7.20, etc;
    we become dead nephesh … dead souls [Lev 21.11, Num 6.6; 19.11,13,16]
    We sleep in the dust of the earth [Dan 12.2], in Sheol … we sleep the sleep of death [Psa 13.3]
    until the resurrection.

    Until you drop the Hellenistic, Platonic (di/tri)chotomy-definition of mankind, you will continue to err.
    Get back to the Hebraic scriptural definition of man.
    Man does not preexist themselves.
    Man has no part of him that is inherently immortal.
    Man, that is, body, soul, spirit, joints, marrow, etc is completely mortal
    Man's only hope of immortality comes from GOD, He alone has immortality. [1 Tim 6.16]

    Therefore, Jesus was/is a man.
    He therefore didn't preexist himself.
    He was not inherently immortal.
    He had no immortal part to him.
    He was completely mortal. He truly was dead for 3 days.
    GOD raised him from the dead and gave him, immortality.
    He therefore, is the first immortal man, the firstborn of the dead, the firstfruits of them that sleep [Col 1.18, 1 Cor 15.20]

    My advice:
    Drop the Platonism/Hellenism and embrace the Hebraisms.
    And you will be on the right track.

    #4755
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Adam Pastor,
    Thank you for your opinion which you clearly hold strongly. Your scriptures talk of death, but they do not define death. You impose your “Hebraic” interpretation to them but you have not justified that belief in my view. You give the impression that your interpretations are according to your beliefs rather than the other way around.

    None of those scriptures describe the death of a soul but only of a body-unless you can show how. Your allegorical analysis of 1 Thess 5 is not helped by your separation of man into in 4 parts because

    1.clearly joints and marrow are part of the body,
    2.heart and mind and strengths are qualities of the soul-the part of us that loves.

    We do not have the right to define as poetic what can be interpreted literally do we?
    They talk of the sleep of death which I agree with. But if a body is cremated or allowed to decay then what is left can hardly be described as a soul. When Samuel was raised it was not as a corrupted body but a living soul leaving the corrupt body in the earth surely.
    The greek word is psuche -breath, the soul, heart, mind, persons [and other similar related meanings]derived from

    psucho-to breathe ,blow, make cold.

    How can these meanings relate to a body? Sounds more like what we call the psyche [soul]-the heart and mind that have to be renewed after salvation.
    Gen 1 says Adam was a man before he had the breath of God breathed into him.

    And what of the resurrection.
    1Peter 3.18 concerning Jesus it says “He was put to death insofar as fleshly existence goes but was given life in the realm of the spirit. It was in the spirit also that he went to preach to the spirits in prison. They had disobeyed as long ago as Noah's day, while God waited patiently until the ark was built.”
    So Jesus who had died but was alive went to visit others who had died but were alive. Jesus also said indirectly that Abraham was alive still. What of those waiting under the altar in Revelation and those confined to pits of darkness in 2 Peter 2.4? What of the rich man in hades in Lk 16?

    Sorry I cannot fit your ideas into the bible but am happy to keep conversing about it as my mind is not closed.

    #4766
     Ramblinrose 
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    #4767
     NickHassan 
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    Hi,
    I must admitI would be surprised if there was not an organised doctrinal defence to any scripture offered.

    #4768
     NickHassan 
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    but I prefer to communicate with honest truth seeking individuals than denominations. Why don't you tell us what these answers are? You must know them to believe them surely?

    #4770
     NickHassan 
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    Hi RR,
    I have had a quick look at the sites anyway. The same greek word is used for the Holy Spirit, human spirits, demons, unclean spirits and angels as ministering spirits. These sites relate the word to the angels without evidence that it is not human spirits spoken of as most would accept.
    These sites doctrinally define man as only body[called soul] and spirit as far as I can tell so their teaching is based on and in defence of this false premise.
    However they also struggle with Jesus visiting in the spirit. Both say it could only have been after the resurrection that this visit occurred. And both say in the new resurrection body.
    But this ignores the words” ..it was in the spirit that he went to preach..”It does not say body. Besides the resurrection body of Jesus was the one he died in, still with the wounds from the crucifixion, as Thomas would testify. It was not the imperishable new body till he went to heaven.
    Anyway I await your summary and corrections.

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