Was Jesus Christ born in Bethlehem or born at the Jordan?

This topic contains 893 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by  t8 4 days, 11 hours ago.

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  • #809156
     t8 
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    This topic has been specifically set up to discuss an idea of Nick Hassan’s that Jesus Christ was not born in Bethlehem, but in the Jordan after being baptised in water and the spirit coming down and descending upon him.

    However, it ended being discussed in over five topics, so I have started this in order to keep it in one place.

    I have given him scripture after scripture but he repeats that Jesus was not the Christ when he was born.

    Here are some of his quotes.

    Yes he became the Christ, the Son of the Living God, at the Jordan
    http://heavennet.net/forums/topic/matthew-1347-50/page/13/#post-807768


    Jesus was born at Bethlehem and reborn from above at the Jordan of the Holy Spirit.
    http://heavennet.net/forums/topic/matthew-1347-50/page/14/#post-808012


    Of course Jesus was made both Lord and Christ so was not conceived or born as such.
    http://heavennet.net/forums/topic/is-jesus-the-logos/page/49/#post-808401

    But I have given him these irrefutable scriptures that say otherwise and he just brushes them off by saying they have a spiritual meaning that only those of the spirit can read. In other words there is a hidden meaning or knowledge that the verse when read isn’t conveying.

    But I have reminded him that on one occasion it was a declaration of an angel of God that Jesus was the Christ on the day he was born,  so who are we to argue with them.

    Here are three verses that prove his doctrine is incorrect.

    Luke 2:10-11
    But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people; for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

    Pretty clear isn’t it.

    Matthew 1:18
    This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph,

    Notice that Jesus Christ birth mentions nothing about the Jordan. It is talking about his birth as a baby.

    Matthew 2:1-2
    When Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea, in the days of King Herod, behold, magi from the east arrived in Jerusalem, saying, “Where is the newborn king of the Jews? We saw his star at its rising and have come to do him homage.” When King Herod heard this, he was greatly troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. Assembling all the chief priests and the scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Messiah was to be born. They said to him, “In Bethlehem of Judea, for thus it has been written through the prophet:

    He was also born King of the Jews. I think Nick has a problem with that too. If not, I know some other members do such as Gene.

    #809159
     t8 
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    I posed this question to Nick.

    Does the utterance of a prophet come first or the prophet?

    He basically teaches that Jesus is not the Christ till Jordan so that is like saying a Prophet is not a prophet till the moment he prophesies.

    I have also challenged him about the Antichrist spirit which denies that “Jesus Christ” came in the flesh.

    He essentially says that Jesus came in the flesh, and became the Christ later on at the Jordan. But the Antichrist spirit denies that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. When exactly did Jesus Christ come in the flesh? Was it in Bethlehem or at the Jordan? Surely it was Bethlehem as we can see from the verses in the opening post. Does Nick then deny that Jesus Christ came in the flesh?

    What do you think?

    1 John 4:2-3
    By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

    Further, Nick essentially teaches that Jesus is just a man and became Christ later on thus he says that Jesus is not the Christ because he is just the man without the anointing. However, that is worrisome when compared against the scripture above and the one below:

    1 John 2:22
    Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist–denying the Father and the Son.

    Here is a quote from Nick:

    Of course Jesus was made both Lord and Christ so was not conceived or born as such.

    Clearly Jesus was not the Christ to him. Instead without him realising it or not, he teaches that Jesus Christ is the Christ, not Jesus because Jesus is just a man without the anointing and so cannot be the Christ according to him. So it appears that he really teaches that Jesus is not the Christ.

    What do you think?

    #809189
     Danny Dabbs 
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    Hi T8,

    I agree. The Messiah was born in Bethlehem.

    John 7:42 “Does not Scripture say that the Messiah will come from David’s descendants and from Bethlehem, the town where David lived?”

    God Bless you, Brother!

    Danny

    #809190
     Danny Dabbs 
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    Hi T8,

    On the other hand, I understand Gene, Nick, Kerwin and Ed J.

    What they say makes sense to me.

    Maybe Jesus was born the Messiah in a prohetic sense. Messiah means anointed one.

    When was Jesus anointed?

    Danny

    #809196
     kerwin 
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    Danny Dabbs,

    Yes, the prophetic sense is how we see it. Nick see the anointing as occurring at the Jordan but I believe that was only the anointing to preach the gospel and to do good works.

    I do know that it is as a result of him sacrificing even to sacrificing his own life for other that God rewarded him by giving him a name that is above every other name. It was at that time he was also made King of all things, which includes Israel.

    #809203
     NickHassan 
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    Hi KW,

    So you see several anointings?

    #809205
     NickHassan 
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    Hi T8,

    Nicodemus was confused about the new birth in jn 3

    Jesus explained that you need to reborn of water and the Spirit.

    Just as happened with him at the Jordan- so we follow in his footsteps.

    #809226
     kerwin 
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    Nick,

    Have you not read Scripture that under the Law both priests and kings were anointed. Jesus is both a high priest ans a king. When Scripture states Jesus was anointed to teach the gospel and do go works then it means he was anointed to preach the gospel and do good works. The title Christ means anointed to be King. Preaching the word of God and doing good works are the actions of a prophet and perhaps high priest, such as Moses.

    #809229
     t8 
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    Hi T8,

    On the other hand, I understand Gene, Nick, Kerwin and Ed J.

    What they say makes sense to me.

    Maybe Jesus was born the Messiah in a prohetic sense. Messiah means anointed one.

    When was Jesus anointed?

    Danny

    I hear what you are saying Danny, but the problem these guys have is that they are actually saying that Jesus was NOT born the Christ in Bethlehem. This is the issue.

    They have opposed me every which way and then they assume that I deny Jesus baptism, when in actual fact I have never done so.

    If scripture says that Jesus was born the Christ as a baby and if it says that Jesus Christ came in the flesh and we know that he became flesh when he was born a baby (or in the womb), then prophetic or not, he was born the Christ because that is written. They are clearly denying scripture including the proclamation of the angel.

    Notice that they do not challenge the angel when I am repeating the angel’s message. But yes they indirectly are challenging the words of that angel of God. I am simply agreeing to the scriptures and the message of the angel. That is all. I have denied his baptism or anything else that is written. So why don’t they just rebuke the angel who spoke the truth when he said that “for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.”.

    The rebuke me for saying it, and they will rebuke you for saying, but not that angel of God for saying it. Strange isn’t it. They don’t accuse the angel of not being able to spiritually discern the verse do they.

    I then draw them to the fact that a prophet is not a prophet as soon as he utters a prophecy, but he is called by God to be a prophet and prophesying is what they do.

    God made Jesus both Lord and Christ. When did he do that? Clearly it was at least when Jesus was born because he was acknowledged as the Christ, the Lord, the King of the Jews, and the son of God when he was a baby.

    Can you see that?

    #809230
     t8 
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    A spiritual understanding of a biblical verse does not render the opposite meaning. This:

    for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord – an Angel of God.

    does not become this when spiritually discerned.

    Of course Jesus was made both Lord and Christ so was not conceived or born as such. – Nick

    In what sense he is the messiah as a baby is irrelevant to the point. It is just plain wrong to say that he was NOT the Christ.

    Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist…

    #809231
     NickHassan 
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    Hi t8,

    For clarification I meant was not already Lord and Christ when he was born.

    Scripture says God made Jesus Lord and Christ so he was not already Lord and Christ when born.

    Such is of prophecy.

    #809233
     t8 
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    But it says:

    for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

    Then you say:

    so he was not already Lord and Christ when born.

    You declare the very opposite. Your message is the anti-message.

    #809239
     NickHassan 
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    Hi T8,

    Separate issues.

    The roles appointed and the anointing for those roles.

    But you do not understand prophetic things?

     

    The Word was made flesh in Jesus at the Jordan.

    That is rebirth not birth.

    #809243
     t8 
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    Your take is different to the scriptures Nick. That is an issue that needs addressing.

    Spiritual discernment doesn’t render any scripture with an opposite meaning. The word for that is ‘error’.

    Sometimes we need to change our understanding, especially when it violates scripture and the message of God.

    #809244
     t8 
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    That is rebirth not birth.

    Jesus was born the messiah. Not reborn the messiah.

    Where does it say he was reborn the messiah? I would like to take a look at that.

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