Trinity (Part 2)

This topic contains 3,754 replies, has 86 voices, and was last updated by  t8 5 days, 14 hours ago.

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  • #107227
     WorshippingJesus 
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    Ron say…

    Quote

    ohn speaks of John 1:3 as “panta” — all. TON THEON made the all of the world of mankind, through Jesus, and without him none of this world was made.

    So the Most High needed a man to create all things through?

    Your interpretation of John three is a distortion of the truth.

    KJV
    All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
    King James Version 1611, 1769

    NKJV – Jhn 1:3 – All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
    New King James Version © 1982 Thomas Nelson

    NLT – Jhn 1:3 – He created everything there is. Nothing exists that he didn't make.
    New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust

    NIV – Jhn 1:3 – Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
    New International Version © 1973, 1978, 1984 International Bible Society

    ESV – Jhn 1:3 – All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
    The Holy Bible, English Standard Version © 2001 Crossway Bibles

    NASB – Jhn 1:3 – All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
    New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman Foundation

    RSV – Jhn 1:3 – all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.
    Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952.

    ASV – Jhn 1:3 – All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.
    American Standard Version 1901 Info

    Young – Jhn 1:3 – all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.
    Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 Info

    Darby – Jhn 1:3 – All things received being through him, and without him not one [thing] received being which has received being.
    J.N.Darby Translation 1890 Info

    Webster – Jhn 1:3 – All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
    Noah Webster Version 1833 Info

    HNV – Jhn 1:3 – All things were made through him. Without him was not anything made that has been made.

    These translations represent over 600 Greek scholars.

    Yet you disagree with them.

    I will use one of the most popular versions…

    NIV – Jhn 1:3 – Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
    New International Version © 1973, 1978, 1984 International Bible Society

    Let me repeat this part…

    without him nothing was made that has been made.

    Everything was made by and through him.

    Nothing came into existence without him.

    So how does this match up to your claim that Jesus is the agent that God used for just man or dirt?

    In the beginning God created the Heavens and the earth! Gen 1:1

    Not in the beginning God created the “Heavens and the dirt”!

    Even so if you believe that God made man through Jesus then you are saying God needed a man to create the man through.

    How does this theory line up with these scriptures?…

    Gen 1:1
    In the beginning “God” created the heavens and the earth!

    Isa 44:24
    Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; *that stretcheth forth the heavens alone*; that spreadeth abroad the earth *by myself*;

    Isa 45:18
    For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: *I am the LORD; and there is none else*.

    God didnt create another agent to create all things through!

    Please explain how “None else” “By myself” and “Alone” includes another agent?

    ???

    #107228
     WorshippingJesus 
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    Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 15 2008,10:50)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,10:46)

    Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 15 2008,05:45)
    History tells us what early Christians believed Jesus to be in relationship to the Father.  The earliest records only give us three options.  No evidence is found for another view until at least 200 years later.  Then we begin to see theology at work as other models begin to emerge or existing models begin to evolve.

    Option 1: (Firstborn, proto-trinity model)

    They said he was an emanation, the first spirit born of God. They believed the Father was actually Father/Mother and did not have an actual gender and God begot him in the descent past.

    Option 2: (docetic model)

    They believed he was man. Who was anointed at baptism and the first spirit descended into him and basically possessed him.  Two beings in one body.  One the human Jesus and the other the christos spirit.

    Option 3: (human model)

    They believed he was man.  Some say virgin born and some the son of Joseph.  The messiah and a prophet who was completely human but anointed with power from God.

    The 1st option is the option that fits closest to what we see the New Testament to be saying.  The Trinity (as believed today) does not fit the historic evidence or the scriptures as nicely as the above option number 1, the proto-trinitarian view.  

    This is also the view held within the essene community of the Messiah.  Which Jesus was an essene Messiah.  The Pharisee expectation was a warrior the essenes expectation was a prophet of peace and healing.  

    This view is also the view found in the book of enoch which was an very important essene text and is even quoted directly in Jude vs. 14.

    The evidence is very strong.  Research it.


    SOL

    You say…

    Quote

    No evidence is found for another view until at least 200 years later.

    Not True. First we have the scriptures that we read now which is all one really need to show us who Yeshua is.

    Second what about “Ignatious” the disciple of John.

    Or will you also deny those as well as John?

    ???


    The scriptures and Ignatius both have a proto-orthadox view of the trinity.

    The modern co-equal, co-eternal stuff forumlated over the years.

    The trinity for ignatius was an economy explaining the administration of God's work amongst men.

    Not a description of God being a force with multiple personality disorder.


    SOL

    And so is your view!

    Ignatious as well as John and many of the Early Fathers clearly call Yeshua God and mention the equality of the Holy Spirit.

    Try again!

    #107229
     ronday888 
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    Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 14 2008,13:04)

    Quote
    (4) Jesus does not share the attribute of being the Creator with his God and Father. — Mark 10:16; 13:19


    Incorrect – John 1:3, 1 Cor 8:5, Col 1:16, Heb 1:2, Heb 1:10.


    The next scripture given is Hebrews 1:2:

    in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages; — Young's Literal Translation.

    t the end of these days, He hath spoken unto us in his Son,-whom he hath appointed heir of all things, through whom also he hath made the ages; — Rotherham's Emphasized Bible translation

    Yes, God has worked through his Son in making the ages. Aion always signifies a motion in time. Thus through Jesus, Yahweh constructed the plan of the ages (Ephesians 3:11). It is the Father who formed the ages; Jesus is the one through whom he formed these ages. God is originator, Jesus is the instrument.

    In service of Jesus and his God,
    Ronald

    #107230
     NickHassan 
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    Hi WJ,
    So faithful to your masters.
    What of the Master?
    He is Lord of all.

    #107226
     WorshippingJesus 
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    Quote (ronday888 @ Jan. 15 2008,11:41)

    Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 14 2008,13:04)

    Quote
    (4) Jesus does not share the attribute of being the Creator with his God and Father. — Mark 10:16; 13:19


    Incorrect – John 1:3, 1 Cor 8:5, Col 1:16, Heb 1:2, Heb 1:10.


    The next scripture given is Hebrews 1:2:

    in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages; — Young's Literal Translation.

    t the end of these days, He hath spoken unto us in his Son,-whom he hath appointed heir of all things, through whom also he hath made the ages; — Rotherham's Emphasized Bible translation

    Yes, God has worked through his Son in making the ages. Aion always signifies a motion in time. Thus through Jesus, Yahweh constructed the plan of the ages (Ephesians 3:11). It is the Father who formed the ages; Jesus is the one through whom he formed these ages. God is originator, Jesus is the instrument.

    In service of Jesus and his God,
    Ronald


    Ron

    NIV – Jhn 1:3 – Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
    New International Version © 1973, 1978, 1984 International Bible Society

    Let me repeat this part…

    without him nothing was made that has been made.

    Everything was made by and through him.

    Nothing came into existence without him.

    So how does this match up to your claim that Jesus is the agent that God used for just man or dirt?

    In the beginning God created the Heavens and the earth! Gen 1:1

    ???

    #107231
     WorshippingJesus 
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    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 15 2008,11:42)
    Hi WJ,
    So faithful to your masters.
    What of the Master?
    He is Lord of all.


    NH

    Yes he is Lord over all!

    Do you mean the Father or the Son? ???

    :D

    #107233
     NickHassan 
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    Hi WJ,
    Still confused between the Father and Son?
    He did not tell anyone to teach trinity and neither did the prophets speaking for God.
    So who is your Lord as you seem to be walking a path not recommended for you by God?

    #107232
     t8 
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    To WJ.

    He is lord over God's creation.

    There is no need for confusion.

    Acts 2:36
    “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

    #107234
     ronday888 
    Member
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    Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 14 2008,13:04)

    Quote
    (4) Jesus does not share the attribute of being the Creator with his God and Father. — Mark 10:16; 13:19


    Incorrect – John 1:3, 1 Cor 8:5, Col 1:16, Heb 1:2, Heb 1:10.


    Hebrews 1:10 – and, `Thou, at the beginning, Lord, the earth didst found, and a work of thy hands are the heavens.”

    Out of all the scriptures given, this is the only scripture that does not use words that directly show that Jesus, in his prehuman existence, was the agent of Yahweh in the creation being spoken of. Indeed, Jesus, being the agent of Yahweh in the creation of the “earth” and the “heavens” being spoken of, did found the “earth”, and heavens are a work of his figurative hands. We should certainly not take this scripture in isolation from the rest of the Bible, but rather view it in harmony with the rest of the Bible.

    http://godandson.reslight.net/heb-1-1-10.html

    In service of Jesus and his God,
    Ronald

    #107235
     WorshippingJesus 
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    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 15 2008,11:55)
    Hi WJ,
    Still confused between the Father and Son?
    He did not tell anyone to teach trinity and neither did the prophets speaking for God.
    So who is your Lord as you seem to be walking a path not recommended for you by God?


    MH'

    How many masters can you serve NH?

    ???

    #107236
     NickHassan 
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    Hi WJ,
    The old trinity routine eh?
    Muddy the water for others then advise them to buy your evil plonk.

    #107237
     WorshippingJesus 
    Participant
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    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 15 2008,12:03)
    Hi WJ,
    The old trinity routine eh?
    Muddy the water for others then advise them to buy your evil plonk.


    NH

    Thats what I thought!

    :)

    #107238
     martian 
    Member
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    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,11:59)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 15 2008,11:55)
    Hi WJ,
    Still confused between the Father and Son?
    He did not tell anyone to teach trinity and neither did the prophets speaking for God.
    So who is your Lord as you seem to be walking a path not recommended for you by God?


    MH'

    How many masters can you serve NH?

    ???


    One master and one God. One master and teacher anointed by God and apointed as head of the church. One God who is over all including Jesus my master.

    #107239
     WorshippingJesus 
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    Quote (ronday888 @ Jan. 15 2008,11:58)

    Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 14 2008,13:04)

    Quote
    (4) Jesus does not share the attribute of being the Creator with his God and Father. — Mark 10:16; 13:19


    Incorrect – John 1:3, 1 Cor 8:5, Col 1:16, Heb 1:2, Heb 1:10.


    Hebrews 1:10 – and, `Thou, at the beginning, Lord, the earth didst found, and a work of thy hands are the heavens.”

    Out of all the scriptures given, this is the only scripture that does not use words that directly show that Jesus, in his prehuman existence, was the agent of Yahweh in the creation being spoken of. Indeed, Jesus, being the agent of Yahweh in the creation of the “earth” and the “heavens” being spoken of, did found the “earth”, and heavens are a work of his figurative hands. We should certainly not take this scripture in isolation from the rest of the Bible, but rather view it in harmony with the rest of the Bible.

    http://godandson.reslight.net/heb-1-1-10.html

    In service of Jesus and his God,
    Ronald


    Ron

    Yes you are right, if we compare Heb 1:10 with John 1:3 then it gives us a clear picture of who Yeshua is.

    Unless you believe in another creator than YHWH!

    NIV – Jhn 1:3 – Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
    New International Version © 1973, 1978, 1984 International Bible Society

    Let me repeat this part…

    without him nothing was made that has been made.

    Everything was made by and through him.

    Nothing came into existence without him.

    So how does this match up to your claim that Jesus is the agent that God used for just man or dirt?

    In the beginning God created the Heavens and the earth! Gen 1:1

    Hebrews 1:10 – and, `Thou, at the beginning, Lord, the earth didst found, and a work of thy hands are the heavens.”

    Col 1:16
    For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; *all things* were created by him and for him.
    17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    Wow! A Spirit filled man holds all things together in himself.

    Kinda matches Heb 1:3

    …All things are upheld by the word of “His Power”

    Jesus is just a mere man? Give me a break!

    :D

    #107240
     t8 
    Participant
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    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,11:59)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 15 2008,11:55)
    Hi WJ,
    Still confused between the Father and Son?
    He did not tell anyone to teach trinity and neither did the prophets speaking for God.
    So who is your Lord as you seem to be walking a path not recommended for you by God?


    MH'

    How many masters can you serve NH?

    ???


    Well let's see. We should obey the law for a start.
    And the law is of God.

    We should obey the one whom God made both Lord and Christ.

    We should obey our elders.

    Ultimately, we should obey all that God has instituted.

    God is the master of all.

    Simple stuff when your mind isn't clouded by the Trinity doctrine.

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