Trinity (Part 1)

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  • #15615
     Ambassador of Christ 
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    Hey,

    I am out of town right now, but I hope to be back later tonight. I will do my best to respond to you posts, but it is starting to get really busy right now. I start classes Monday morning, and have about 900 things to get done before then, but I will do my best to respond fully to your posts. In reading your responses, I feel you might have a misunderstanding of what the Trinity really is. You make an excellent point that the Father and Son are two different persons. I completely agree with you. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Spirit, and the Spirit is not the Father. They are three seperate and distinct persons. They all share the same BEING, that is God. YAHWEH is ONE God made up of three seperate, coequal persons. I dont not beleive in three Gods. Let me try to give a good working deff. of the Trinity, and hopefully clear up any confusion you might have as to what I feel the scripture teaches. The ONE being of God is shared by three co-equal and co-eternal persons, The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Please note the difference in the words "BEING" and "PERSON" They are seperate persons, but they share the same being that is God. I hope this helps you to understand what the Trinity really is. Just one quick note before I finish this post. You posted many verses that describe the Holy Spirit as the "Spirit of God" but you left out the verses that describe the Holy Spirit as "The Spirit of CHrist." You might want to go back and look those up. I would also challenge you to go back over what the bible teaches on worship. Are we to only worship God? Finally, if you beleive that Christ we involved in creation, I would ask you to consider how it is possible for a part of creation to create himself. Does ALL of creation worship the Son? If so, does He worship himself? These are just a few things you can think about and look up in scripture until I can post later tonight. I will be answering these points in full in my next post.

    -God Bless

    #15596
     Ambassador of Christ 
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    One thing I forgot to ask:

    Do you have AOL instant messenger? If so, I’d be glad to exchange screen names with you so we can talk there and get more accomplished in a shorter amount of time. I also have other chat programs such as MIRC, and Pal talk if you would like to use those.

    God Bless

    #15313
     t8 
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    I think Instant Messenger is a good idea, but I would prefer that it was done though the BBS so that others can benefit from all the thought, time and prayer that we are all sacrificing. Remember that checking out beliefs and teachings in the scripture is a good thing. To bring this out into the light gives room for God to reveal his truth to others who may read this and may save others treading the same ground, so they can go further.
    What do you guy’s think??

    #15635
     t8 
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    Yes, I understand the Trinity doctrine.
    It basically says that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit combined are God. Each is God, but there is only one God. Like the members of you own family eg. Jack is a Jones, Jill is a Jones, and Bob is a Jones, they are all different but they are all the Jones family.

    However, it is not the lack of understanding that has lead me to disbelieve the trinity doctrine, it’s the fact that it is not taught in scripture and the fact that the doctrine appeared hundreds of years later, from very suspicious circumstances and delivered by the ungodly to control those whom they could not control, because of their allegience to Christ, not Ceasar. Also the scriptures CLEARLY teach a different pattern than what this man-made creed dictates. (How can any good thing come from the spirit of Man?).

    What I am trying to say all along is that God became a Father when he begat a Son. The Son is not created because creation is all that came through the Son from the Father. Rather the Son is in between God and creation, he is also known as the only Mediator, the Word, the Christ, the Messiah and the Lord and the only begotten Son from the Father.

    Again the Divine order is God, Christ, Man.

    This teaching is supported by an incredible amount of scriptures. To deny this teaching is to deny alot of the bible, eg

    Jesus is the Vine, we are the branches, the Father is the Gardner…

    There is one God the Father and one Lord the Lord Jesus Christ…

    There is one Mediator between Man and God…

    Jesus is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty on High… We are seated at the right hand of Christ…

    Jesus is seated on the Fathers throne, we are seated on Jesus throne…

    Jesus is the image of God, we are the image of Christ. The scriptures do not mention anywhere that the Father is the image os someone else (He is the original, Originator, the Most High, the only True God)…

    The Father is Jesus God and our God…

    God is the head of Christ, Christ is the head of man and man is the head of woman… (head means source)

    Jesus only does and says what his Father does and says, we should do the same with Christ… The Father is lead by no one, he is the Most High…

    God knows everything, there are things that Jesus does not know, there are many things that we (man) do not know…

    God was in Christ revealing himself to Man… Christ should be in us revealing the Son and consequently God, to mankind…

    The book of Revelation was given by God, to Christ, to the Angel, to John, to the Seven Churches and then to us.

    Jesus is the firstborn of the Father, Adam was the firstborn of mankind, but he fell and only the firstborn from the Father could redeem us. He also become the second Adam, so that we may have eteral life.

    God cannot fellowship with sinful man. God can fellowship with sinful man through Christ, because he takes our sins away. God himself doesn’t remove our sin.

    God didn’t die for us, God didn’t take sin upon himself. The Son did. God didn’t become flesh, the Word did…

    ========================================
    It seems strange to me that trinitarians cannot see past God and Man, they cannot see who the Word really is, they are blind to the Mediator, the one between God and Man. You know many believe in God, even the Demons believe in God. But how many really know who Christ is. Peter declared that He was the Christ, the Messiah, the Son. Jesus told Peter that the Father revealed this, not man. I think the trinity was revealed by man.

    Light has come into the world and the world preferred darkness. Jesus is that light. But darkness hides the truth and false Gods are from the Kningdom of Darkness. To say that Jesus is one part of a trinity god, is no better than the religion of the Egyptians and Babylonians The Babylonians also worshipped the virgin, the Mother of God. The trinity is just placing Christ into an Egyptian/Babylonian god package.

    Trintarians argue that if Jesus wasn’t God then he was fully man, why does this have to be the only 2 choices. You certainly didn’t get this from scripture. It is pure indoctrination. I know because I was taught the same thing for years myself and believed without question. This is what brainwashing is all about. If you hear it long enough you just accept it. This is how the carnal nature responds and is why different parts of the world have strongholds and different belief systems. I think that alot of people who accept the trinity would probably accept communism had they be born in communist China, or Hinduism had they been born in Hindu India or Catholicisim had they been born in South America, or Islam had they been born in Pakistan. Why do I say this, because most if not all who believe in a doctrine that was formulated centuries after the last book in the bible and believe in a doctrine that goes against clear teachings in the scripture, proves to me at least that these people do not think or challenge or search. Then they flattly refuse all scriptures that contradict their beleif. They just accept whatever is given to them from man, and then once indoctrinated they defend that belief with a sense of patriotism. Same thing in sport, you live in Manchester, you support Manchester United. You live in New Zealand you support the All Blacks. You live in Chicago, you support the Chicago Bulls. It’s all pride and the Devil uses this. Man is so fickle and so easy to manipulate.

    Is there anyone out there that is willing to search for the truth and give their life up for the truth. To seek Jesus is to really and honestly seek the truth, because he is the truth. To some of the religious and traditional, Jesus will say, Depart from me for you never knew me. Truth is a person. Are you willing to say in the face of truth, that he is something else contrary to his own scripture and revelation but rather he is what Man dictated 300 hundred years after the last book in the bible and on the revelation or decision of a Roman Emperor because that is going to look really funny on judgement day. You are one part of the trinity ok Jesus. Just accept it Jesus because you are out numbered.

    #15382
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    to t8:

    First of all I’d like to propose that we use Instant messenger, as it will allow for easier and more indepth discussions. We can also continue to post on this website. I also feel like the discussions we have on here will help others. Here is my screen name: tuliptrinitarian You can either just message me and add me to your buddy list, or you can give me your screen name and I will add you to mine. This way we can have easier discussions, and we can still post on this site. I look foward to chatting with you on Instant messenger.

    Secondly, I apologize if there was any confusion. My earlier post was directed to Ramblinrose. I forgot to note that. However, I would like to make one thing clear. I am doing my best to base this discussion off of scripture. I believe the bible very clearly teaches the deity of Christ. I feel this discussion should be done so off of scripture alone. I do not beleive the deity of Christ because I read it in a creed or because someone else had this idea before me. I beleive the deity of Christ because it is very clearly taught in scripture. So I just wanted to make that statement very clear that I beleive in the deity of Christ as well as the trinity based off scripture, not man’s ideas.

    -God Bless

    #15348
     t8 
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    Below are 100 verses from every book in the New Testament that show God and Jesus to be different. This is an overwhelming amount of scriptures that confirm that God is the Father and Jesus is from God. True faith in God, is to believe that Jesus is the Son of God.

    Matthew 27:46

    Mark 1:24

    Mark 10:18

    Mark 15:34

    Mark 16:19

    Luke 2:52

    Luke 6:12

    Luke 18:19

    John 3:2

    John 8:42

    John 8:54

    John 9:3

    John 13:31

    John 14:1*

    John 17:3

    John 20:17

    Acts 2:22

    Acts 2:32

    Acts 2:36

    Acts 3:13

    Acts 4:10

    Acts 5:30

    Acts 7:55

    Acts 10:36

    Acts 10:38

    Acts 13:23

    Acts 20:21

    Romans 1:7

    Romans 1:8

    Romans 2:16

    Romans 3:22

    Romans 4:24

    Romans 5:1

    Romans 5:11

    Romans 5:15

    Romans 5:17

    Romans 6:23

    Romans 7:25

    Romans 8:34

    Romans 10:9

    Romans 15:5

    Romans 15:6

    Romans 16:27

    1 Corinthians 1:3

    1 Corinthians 1:9

    1 Corinthians 1:30

    1 Corinthians 8:6

    1 Corinthians 15:57

    2 Corinthians 1:2

    2 Corinthians 1:3

    2 Corinthians 11:31

    2 Corinthians 13:14

    Galatians 1:1

    Galatians 1:3

    Ephesians 1:2

    Ephesians 1:3

    Ephesians 1:17

    Ephesians 2:6

    Ephesians 6:23

    Philippians 1:2

    Philippians 2:11

    Colossians 1:3*
    Colossians 3:17

    1 Thessalonians 1:1

    1 Thessalonians 1:3

    1 Thessalonians 3:11

    1 Thessalonians 3:13

    1 Thessalonians 4:14

    1 Thessalonians 5:9

    2 Thessalonians 1:1

    2 Thessalonians 1:2

    2 Thessalonians 1:12

    2 Thessalonians 2:16

    1 Timothy 1:1

    1 Timothy 1:2

    1 Timothy 2:5

    1 Timothy 5:21

    1 Timothy 6:3

    2 Timothy 1:1

    2 Timothy 1:2

    2 Timothy 4:1

    Titus 1:4

    Titus 2:13

    Philemon 1:3

    Hebrews 13:20

    James 1:1

    1 Peter 1:2

    1 Peter 2:5

    2 Peter 1:1

    2 Peter 1:2

    1 John 5:1*

    1 John 5:20

    2 John 1:3

    Jude 1:1

    Jude 1:4

    Jude 1:21

    Jude 1:25

    Revelation 1:1

    Revelation 1:2

    Revelation 14:12

    #15434
     Ambassador of Christ 
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    If anyone has an instant messenger screen name, feel free to post it, and I will add you to my list. Also, I will be posting later tonight.

    God Bless

    #15297
     t8 
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    To Ambassador of Christ:
    This post doesn't answer any of your questions or statements. I am just laying a foundation for what will come next.

    Most of the basis for the trinity doctrine is concerning the use of the title “Elohim”, translated “God”. The word “Elohim” is the most overused word in trying to prove the Trinity. The word “Elohim” does have other uses than 'deity'. It can also mean a “judge” or a “ruler”. This is also true of the word 'Theos' in greek. In fact, one of the translations translated “theos” as 'ruler'. The high trust in this word can be refuted if you understand that Elohim is a title that describes Yahweh just as the word “King” or “Master” describes Yahweh. It is not really a crown of some sort. It is not such a proprietary thing to be called “Elohim”. It is true that there is only one Elohim. Just as there is really only one Master. But this word is also used to describe other authorities.
    =================

    The word “God”, in the Old and New Testament are translated from many different words and each original Hebrew or Greek word for God have a wide range of uses.

    Theos {theh'-os} is by far the most common Greek word that we translate as God or god. Below are the possible meanings of the word “theos”.

    1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
    2) the Godhead
    3) spoken of the only and true God
    3a) refers to the things of God
    3b) his counsels, interests, things due to him
    4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
    4a) God's representative or viceregent
    4a1) of magistrates and judges

    Now I will show you some Biblical verses that apply the word God (Theos) to denote different personalities.

    Below we see a verse where the word “theos” is used when referring to the Father.

    Ephesians 1:3 (English-NIV)
    Praise be to the God (theos) and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

    Now you will see a verse where the Greek word “theos” is used to describe Jesus.

    John 20:28-29 (English-NIV)
    28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God! (theos)”
    29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

    The word “theos” in the next verse is used to describe Satan.

    2Corinthians 4:4 (English-NIV)
    The god (theos) of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God (theos).

    The word (theos) is also used to describe Man see below.

    John 10:34 (English-NIV)
    Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods (theos)'

    The Old Testament was written in Hebrew and again we see that the word “God” can apply to our Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, Angelic & Demonic powers, idols and mankind.

    The NIV & NASB translate the following 3 words as God “el” “eloah” & “elohim”
    Each is a generic term, meaning “God” or “mighty one”.
    Normally when one of these words occur in the OT, it designates either the true God or something that the pagan nations viewed as a god. In only a few instances are these words used of angels or human beings.

    Below is a scripture that shows that the Father is God.

    Malachi 2:10 (English-NIV)
    Have we not all one Father ? Did not one God (el) create us?
    Why do we profane the covenant of our fathers by breaking faith with one another?

    Next I will show you a verse where the Hebrew word “eloah” is used to describe Jesus.
    We will be looking at this scripture in more depth in Part 5 (Scriptures that are used to support the trinity doctrine).

    Isaiah 9:6 (English-NIV)
    For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders.
    And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God (el), Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    Next we can see that the word god is used to denote idols.

    Exodus 20:23 (English-NIV)

    Do not make any gods (elohiym) to be alongside me; do not make for yourselves gods (elohiym) of silver or gods (elohiym) of gold.

    The word “elohiym” is the most common word that is tanslated God in the Old Testament.

    Genesis 1:1 (English-NIV) says:
    In the beginning God (elohiym) created the heavens and the earth.

    “elohiym” is also used to describe Man. See next the verse.

    Psalms 82:6 (English-NIV)
    “I said, `You are “gods” (elohiym); you are all sons of the Most High.'

    These scriptures show us that the word God is not always used to describe the Most High God but rather is a word that can apply to many types of authority. I think that it is very important that we read each verse in its correct context eg The Most High God is completely different to the god of this age.

    ========================================
    Taken from my page http://www.heavennet.net/writings/trinity-04.htm

    #15314
     t8 
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    I AM.

    "Before Abraham was, I am." These words, spoken by our Savior in Jn.8:58, have led to much controversy and confusion. Some use this verse to prove the the trinity doctrine and to prove that Yahshua (Jesus) is Yahweh, the great "I AM" of Ex.3:14.

    The phrase "I am" is "ego eimi" in Greek. Since the Greek New Testament records Yahshua using "ego eimi" many times. Ex.3:14-15 reads, "And Elohim said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and He said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. And Elohim said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, Yahweh, Elohim of your fathers, the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations." Therefore, the "I AM" is identified as "Yahweh."

    And what does Yahweh say in Ps.2:7? "I will declare the decree: Yahweh hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee." Yahweh is the Father of Yahshua. Yahshua is the Son of Yahweh. Yahshua is not Yahweh and the Son is not the Father. Therefore, Yahshua (the Son of Yahweh) cannot be the I AM (Yahweh).

    It is believed by some that Jn.8:59 further supports the position that Yahshua is the "I AM." Why else would the Jews try to stone him? He obviously blasphemed in the eyes of the Jews, a stoneable offense.

    Is the mere utterance of "ego eimi" a blasphemy? Does the use of "ego eimi" automatically identify the speaker as Yahweh, the I AM? Yahshua used "ego eimi" as well. In Lu.1:19, the angel Gabriel said, "Ego eimi Gabriel." In Jn.9:9, the blind man whose sight was restored by Yahshua said, "Ego eimi." In Acts 10:21, Peter said, "Behold, ego eimi (I am) he whom ye seek." Obviously, the mere use of "ego eimi" does not equate one to the "I Am" of Ex.3:14.

    Yashua used the phrase "ego eimi" at least twenty times and yet, in only one instance did the Jews seek to stone him (Jn.8:58). Yahshua said, "I am the bread of life" to a large crowd, in Jn.6:35 & 48, yet no one opposed him. In verse 41, the Jews murmured because he said, "I am (ego eimi) the bread which came down from heaven." But in verse 42, the Jews questioned only the phrase, "I came down from heaven" and ignored "ego eimi." The same is true of verses 51 & 52.

    In Jn.8:12, 18, 24, & 28, Yahshua used "ego eimi" with Pharisees present (vs.13) and yet, no stoning. He, again, used it four times in Jn.10:7, 9, 11, & 14 with no stoning. Yahshua said to his disciples, "…that…ye may believe that I am (ego eimi)" in Jn.13:19 without them batting an eye.

    An interesting account occurs in Jn.18 when the Jews came to arrest Yahshua in the Garden of Gethsemane. When the chief priests and Pharisees said they were seeking Yahshua of Nazareth, Yahshua said to them, "Ego eimi." At that they fell backward to the ground. It is not made clear why they fell to the ground, but what followed will make it clear that Yahshua was not claiming to be the "I AM."

    After Yahshua’s arrest, the Jews took him to Annas first (vs.13). Then they took him to Caiaphas (vs.24) and eventually to Pilate (vss.28,29). A parallel account is found in Mt.26:57-68. Notice, in particular, verse 59. The same men that had fallen backward to the ground were in attendance when the council sought false witnesses against Yahshua to put him to death. Verse 60 says they couldn’t find any. Eventually two came forward. Interestingly, they didn’t bear false witness about what Yahshua said in Jn.8:58, but about his reference to destroying the temple and building it again in three days. Where were all those witnesses from Jn.8:58?

    The point about Mt.26 is, why would false witnesses be sought if they had true witnesses in attendance? The arresting officers heard Yahshua say "Ego eimi." They could have stoned him right there in the garden for blasphemy, but they didn’t. They could have reported the supposed blasphemy to the council, but they didn’t. Why not? Because it wasn’t blasphemy, nor was it a stoneable offense. He was merely identifying himself as Yahshua of Nazareth.

    This brings us back to Jn.8:58. Why did the Jews seek to stone him on that occasion? The context of Jn.8 shows that Yahshua;

    1) accused the Jews of "judging after the flesh" (vs.15).
    2) said they would die in their sins (vss.21,24).
    3) implied they were in bondage (vss.32,33).
    4) said they were servants of sin (vs.34).
    5) said they were out to kill him (vss. 37,40).
    6) implied they were spiritually deaf (vs.43,47).
    7) said their father was the devil (vs.44).
    8) said they were not of Elohim (vs.47).
    9) accused them of dishonoring him (vs.49).
    10) accused them of not knowing Yahweh (vs.55).
    11) accused them of lying (vs.55).

    Aside from that, the Jews misunderstood Yahshua’s words leading them to believe;

    1) that he accused them of being born of fornication (vs.41).
    2) Yahshua had a devil (vs.52).
    3) that he was exalting himself above Abraham (vs.53).
    4) that he saw Abraham (vs.56).

    Yahshua’s words in verse 58 were the culmination of an encounter that was so offensive to the Jews that they couldn’t restrain themselves anymore. They simply couldn’t take it anymore so they sought to stone him, not because of two simple words, "ego eimi," but because he was making himself out to be greater than their beloved father Abraham.

    To say that Jesus claimed to be God because he said "I am" can only be at most, an opinion. It is obviously not a teaching but simply an historical occurance. Nor is there any teaching in the bible that uses this occurance as a teaching to promote the trinity or to prove that Yashua is Yahweh. To hinge the trinity doctrine on an assumption is indeed a weak argument to make and wouldn’t get very far in a court of law. And to say that we are condemned if we do not believe in a certain vague interpretation is totally unreasonable (remember that we are judged by the measures we judge others). If you read the Bible and read it from cover to cover would you come to the conclusion that Jn.8:58 is saying that Jesus is God and part of a trinity. I really do not think so, therfore it is unfair to condemn someone who doesn’t hold to your opinion with this scripture and I have to note that there are hundreds of scriptures that show us clearly that the Father is God and Jesus is the Son of God. These verses are clear teachings. The trinity doctrine is based on weak assumtions and the mind of Man. I prefer to believe the scriptures, rather than assumtions.
    ===================================
    Some text taken from other websites.

    #15349
     t8 
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    I Am
    If you said to me are you t8, I could say I am, but would you assume that I was claiming to be Yahweh. Of course not. The Exodus verse has no bearing on me saying I am, it is simply a truthful reply to a question. To connect my reply with a claim that I am God is simply an assumption.

    It is quite believable that they feel backwards after all he is the Son of God. Men often fell down in the presence of Angels and Jesus is greater than all the Angels.

    John 13:16
    I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.

    John 6:29
    Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

    #15383
     t8 
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    The Word was God:

    John 1:1  
    a) In the beginning was the Word, (En arche en ho logos)

    b) and the Word was with God, (kai ho logos en pros ton theon)

    C) and the Word was God. (kai theos en ho logos).

    The Greek word translated "God" is "theos." The Greek does not have a different word to show possession. Therefore, theos can be translated "God" or "God’s." The possessive form makes this verse so clear and in harmony with the phrase "the word was with God."

    A second possible translation would be, "and the word was mighty." Theos is equivalent to the Hebrew word elohim. Elohim has the meaning of great or mighty in such verses as

    Gen.30:8, "And Rachel said, With great [elohim] wrestlings have I wrestled with my sister, and I have prevailed: and she called his name Naphtali" and

    1 Sam 14:15, "And there was trembling in the host, in the field, and among all the people: the garrison, and the spoilers, they also trembled, and the earth quaked: so it was a very great [elohim] trembling."

    Since the word theos in the phrase "the Word was God [theos]" is not preceded by the article "ho" or "ton" (the God), as are the other two uses of theos & logos (Word) in verses 1 & 2, it can be understood as an adjective rather than a noun.

    This is difficult to see in English, because here we do not translate the Greek article with the English article ("the" ). That is, we do not say "the Word was with the God." For example, Greek often uses the article with proper names, where we would not in English (we do not say "the Jesus," but simply "Jesus" ). Nevertheless, the word "God" in clause b above, is definite and refers to a particular God, namely God the Father and in clause c it is simply God which can mean god-like.

    An example would be when you call someone an angel. "You are an angel". This means that we are saying you are like an angel. But if we say you are the Angel, then we are saying that you are an actual angel which is a different meaning.
    ====================================================
    Some references above are taken from other websites:
    I will leave this one here for now, because I think that this verse needs alot more discussion. I will endeavour to answer the other questions and challenge the other statements you have made. After this I would like to return to John 1 for a more indepth discussion and then ask you for an explanation on how to fit the trinity doctrine into other certain selected verses.

    #15236
     Ambassador of Christ 
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    t8 do you have an Instant messenger name?

    #15252
     Ramblinrose 
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    to Ambassador for Christ,

    Yes, I understand what the trinity is.  You quoted the following:

    ***”In reading your responses, I feel you might have a misunderstanding of what the Trinity really is.  You make an excellent point that the Father and Son are two different persons.  I completely agree with you.  The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Spirit, and the Spirit is not the Father.  They are three seperate and distinct persons.  They all share the same BEING, that is God.  YAHWEH is ONE God made up of three seperate, coequal persons.  I dont not beleive in three Gods.  Let me try to give a good working deff. of the Trinity, and hopefully clear up any confusion you might have as to what I feel the scripture teaches.   The ONE being of God is shared by three  co-equal and co-eternal persons,    The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  Please note the difference in the words “BEING” and “PERSON”  They are seperate persons, but they share the same being that is God.  I hope this helps you to understand what the Trinity really is.”***  

    But again you have not read the scripture word for word.  I also believe that the Father and Jesus are two separate persons.  But the Father IS GOD whilst Jesus is the SON OF GOD.

    I quoted this scripture before but I will once again:

    Acts 7:55,56
    55  But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
    56  And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

    Please notice that Jesus is standing at the right hand of GOD, not of the Father.  You have told me that Jesus is God, so how can he be standing beside himself.  That makes no sense at all.  For Jesus to be standing beside God, he cannot be God.  Please explain this to me, obviously I must be missing something here.

    John 20:17  Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

    Here he is ascending to the Father.  Good, that suits us both but then he says he is ascending ‘to my God, and your God’.  Once again, how can he be ascending to God if he is God.  For me this scripture makes perfect sense.  He is ascending to his Father, who is also our father, and to his God, who is also our God.  When I say God, or when I say Father, I am speaking of the same person.  When I say Jesus, I am speaking about the Son of God.

    I don’t see how either of the above passages can be read any other way.  They say what they say.

    1 Corinthians 15:27
    For he “has put everything under his feet.”
    Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.  

    Above I have used t8’s selection.  Jesus must be a separate person for God to be able to put something under him, otherwise he would have been putting it under himself anyway.

    Above you stated ‘three beings equalling one God’.  The above passages do not match that belief.  You also state that the three beings are coequal.  Equal means that they are all the same but without quoting the scripture we know that Jesus has said that the Father is greater than him and that he did and said what he was told by the Father.  So, where’s the equal bit in that.

    Next you say the following:

    ***“Just one quick note before I finish this post.  You posted many verses that describe the Holy Spirit as the “Spirit of God” but you left out the verses that describe the Holy Spirit as “The Spirit of Christ.”  You might want to go back and look those up.”***

    Yes, I have looked them up for you and there are only two, I have listed one below:

    Romans 8:
    8  So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
    9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
    10  And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
    11  But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies

    First, I don’t believe the Spirit of Christ to be the same as the Spirit of God.  I believe Jesus to be a separate person and that he would have his own spirit.  When we accept Jesus we accept his spirit and we try to live more like him.  When you have the Spirit of Christ, you act Christ-like, you act Christ-like because you believe in the Son and wish to follow the ways of God and to do this is to follow the ways of the son.  He came to show us how to live our lives.  Notice the next verse says ‘and if Christ be in you’, this follows what I have just said, to be Christ-like.  You will notice in the next verse that it says ‘But if the Spirit that raised up Jesus from the dead…’.  Can you see that he is now talking about a different spirit, this shows the Spirit of God to be a different Spirit to that of Christ.

    ,
    You quoted the following:
    ***“However, I will point out in scripture why a misunderstanding of God can result in a false Jesus.  A false Jesus cannot save.  To answer your question, scripture does make it very clear that we cannot attain salvation unless we believe in who God is as the bible reveals.  

    We cannot know the Father unless we know the Son:
    John 14: 6-7  Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.”

    We must know the true Jesus Christ as he is revealed in scripture to have eternal life:
    John 8:23-24  And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”***

    Let us look more deeply at John 14: 6-7.  Please note that this scripture does not say that Jesus is God, if I we were to interpret this scripture word for word like you have done then Jesus has just said that he is the FATHER – not God.  This then does not support your belief of the Trinity.  You have told me that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are SEPARATE persons but of the same being, God.  The above verse says that Jesus is the Father, which goes against everything that is the Trinity.  Obviously this verse is not to be interpreted in a literal sense.  Please remember that Jesus has been given the Holy Spirit (which is God’s spirit – not a separate person) without limit.  He has come to bring the word of God from God for God.  

    John 5:19  Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
    John 5:30  I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
    John 8:28  Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

    My  understanding of this verse would be (brackets mine): – “If you had known Me (the Son of God), you would have known My Father (God) also, from now on you know Him, and have seen Him (this doesn’t mean they had physically seen the Father (God), it means that they have come to know him by what Jesus has told them about him and have seen him by the miracles that Jesus has performed with the power of the Holy Spirit (which is God)).

                      * * * * *
    t 8 has already referred to the I AM section but I will add another writing.  Please note it is not my own and I have quoted th
    e writing in full thus  keeping with the request of the author.

    Is ‘I AM’ God’s Name
    There is a scene in the movie “Popeye” where the lead character makes this profound statement about himself: “I am what I am.” In spite of this, there was no outcry from the Christian community, no condemnation of the movie or the character, no charges of blasphemy, no picketing of movie theatres, no boycotts. In fact, no one seemed to notice the remark, least of all the Christian community.
    We do not condemn Popeye as claiming to be God for saying, “I am what I am.” Yet we charge Jesus Christ with claiming to be God for saying even less: “I am.”
    John 8:24. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.
    John 8:58. Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
    John 18:5-8. 5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am [he]. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. 6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am [he], they went backward, and fell to the ground. 7 Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth. 8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am [he]: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:
    If, as we in the Christian community have claimed for so long, all it takes to make the claim, “I am God,” is the utterance of those two words, “I am,” should not the use of those words by mere mortals have been banned centuries ago? Yet, to my knowledge, no move has been made in that direction at any time, anywhere. It's almost as if those words have no significance whatsoever except when uttered by Jesus Christ.
    That might be fine if he had been speaking to Christians who believed in his deity. But he was not. He was in the midst of a heated exchange with Jews who did not even accept his claim to be the Messiah. We argue to this day that these Jews, who had been trained by the Law of Moses to recognize only the Father in heaven as the one true God, and who had no idea that any Jew would dare to claim to be God, recognized those two words, “I am,” as a claim to Godhood when they were spoken by Jesus Christ, when we ourselves hear these words every day without so much as thinking of God.
    Go to an office or a job site. Ask, “Who's in charge here?” Invariably, someone will step forward and utter those blasphemous words, “I am.” Yet no one is shocked. No one is offended. We recognize without thinking about it that this is not their intent. One has to go out of his way, saying something like, “I am the great I Am,” before anyone sees anything amiss.
    Was Jesus claiming to be God when he said, “I am?” People who claim that this was the case argue that this was an obvious reference to Exodus 3:14, where God calls Himself “I Am.”
    Exodus 3:13-14. 13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, [when] I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What [is] his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
    There are several problems with this argument. First, the words, “I AM THAT I AM,” are not an accurate translation of the Hebrew words used. There is no Hebrew word for “I am.” There is, however, a word for “become,” and it is this word that is used here. The New International Version preserves the popular rendering, “I am who I am,” but in a note gives a more accurate translation: “I will be what I will be.”
    Second, the alleged reference is far from obvious, even to a Trinitarian. The very same phrase is translated, “I am [he]” in John 8:24, 8:28, and 9:9.
    John 8:24. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.
    John 8:28. Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
    John 9:9. Some said, This is he: others [said], He is like him: [but] he said, I am [he].
    It is currently popular to use John 8:24 and 8:28 as examples of Jesus calling himself God. If they are, they were not obvious as such to the translaters of the King James Version of the Bible, for they added the word “he” to complete the sense. Why did they not translate John 8:58 the same way they translated these other three passages?
    John 9:9 is particularly interesting, because here the man born blind who was healed by Jesus used those words, “I am.” Was he claiming to be God? Clearly the people he was talking to did not think so. No one accused him of blasphemy; they continued the conversation as if nothing had happened.
    In Jesus' case, they took up stones to throw at him. Yet no one on the scene, including those who hated him, accused him of claiming to be God.
    But there is an even more serious problem with this argument, and to see this one we must go back to Exodus 3.
    Exodus 3:13-15. 13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, [when] I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What [is] his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this [is] my name for ever, and this [is] my memorial unto all generations.
    Usually we stop reading at verse 14, and assume that “I AM THAT I AM,” or “I AM” is the name that God is revealing to Moses. But God's name is not revealed until verse 15.
    Where is it? The translation in the King James Version obscures it. The word “LORD” which appears in all capital letters is one of the instances where the text was deliberately changed in the Hebrew from YHWH, transliterated “Jehovah” in English, to “Adonai,” meaning “Lord.” The change was marked by those who did it, and was done out of reverence for the name of God, not out of a desire to deceive. Nevertheless, it does obscure the meaning of the verse.
    Once this word is changed back to its original form, the verse becomes much clearer:
    Exodus 3:15. And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, Jehovah [or YHWH] God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this [is] my name for ever, and this [is] my memorial unto all generations.
    Here, God's name is clearly and explicitly revealed as Jehovah, or YHWH. He is referred to by this name numerous times in scripture. In short, this is TREATED as His name throughout scripture.
    In contrast, never again is God referred to as “I AM,” or “I AM THAT I AM.” Our identification of this as a name for God depends strictly on our interpretation of Exodus 3:14. It is confirmed no other place in scripture.
    Exodus 6:3 bears witness that the name introduced in Exodus 3 was Jehovah, or YHWH.
    Exodus 6:2-3. 2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I [am] the LORD: 3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by [the name of] God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
    Clearly the name that God revealed to Moses for Himself is YHWH, or Jehovah. What, then, is the significance of “I am that I am,” or “I AM?”
    God used these phrases to introduce His name, and they need to be viewed in that context. The words translated “I am that I am” are EHYEH EHEYEH in the Hebrew. “I AM” is EHYEH in the Hebrew. “Jehovah,” the name given for Himself by God to Moses on this occasion, is made up of two parts: JAH, which is used elsewhere in scripture by itself as God's name, and EHYEH, “I will be.” From this it appears that Exodus 3:14, and the phrases, “I am that
    I am” and “I AM,” are an explanation of the name “Jehovah” given in verse 15.
    From what we've seen so far, it should be pretty clear that the one thing Jesus Christ was NOT doing in John 8:58, when he said, “Before Abraham was, I am,” was identifying himself as God. None of the disciples bowed down and worshipped him as God upon hearing those words; in fact, there is no indication that their very familiar relationship with him changed one bit after this utterance. This is utterly impossible if they, let alone the Jews who did NOT believe him, understood and believed him to be identifying himself as God Almighty.
    But the significance of what we've looked at here goes even further than this. Today it is common for Christians to allege, “Jesus Christ claimed to be God; he either lied or he told the truth.” But when you ask for scriptural references to support this statement, no clear examples of this are to be found. In many cases, the only passages of scripture used in support of this statement are John 8:58 and, occasionally, the other “I am” verses, John 8:24 and 28.
    Without these verses, which were always weak and shaky evidence at best, we are left with no instances during his ministry on earth where Jesus claimed to be God. In light of this, perhaps we should reconsider our own ideas and teachings about this, to make sure that they are in agreement with God's Word.                      END OF QUOTE

    You state the Jesus is claiming to be YAHWEH in John 8:24 and that this is not the only time.  

    Let us look at a statement that Jesus made himself, quoting from Psalms, and see if he himself said the same.

    Mark 12:35  And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David?
    36  For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
    37  David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.

    This should read ‘YAHWEH said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies they footstool’.  Jesus points out that YAHWEH is not speaking to David as Lord, he is speaking of Jesus.  Therefore it is saying ‘YAHWEH said to Jesus, Sit thou at my right hand, till I make thine enemies they foostool’.  This passage clearly shows that Jesus is not YAHWEH  and is not claiming to be.

    You have quoted that when Paul said Jesus was Lord, by Lord he meant YAHWEH.  Please note that Lord is not rendered LORD in the old testatment at all times. As you can see from above Jesus is Lord whilst God is LORD (Yahweh).  This shows that when you refer to Jesus as Lord but when you refer to God it should be as LORD (Yahweh).

    1John 5: 19  We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.  20  And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

    Once again you picked just one verse (20), you must attach verse 19 to better understand this passage (brackets mine).  John is explaining here that we are of God and then how to know the true God.  As John says, *** ’And we know that the Son of God (Jesus) has come and has given us an understanding (by the things he said and the miracles he performed) that we may know Him (God the Father) who is true.  We are in Him who is true (God the Father) and in His Son Jesus Christ (we are in him because we have believed in the Son of God).  This is the true God (God the Father) and eternal life’.  John is stating that the God which Jesus has preached to us is the true God.

                                  * * * * *
    You stated the following after I said that “I worship one God (Yahweh) and I worship Jesus as the Son of God and as Lord”.

    *** ”However, we are taught very specifically in the bible that we are to ONLY worship God and Him alone:” ***    Then you quoted Exodus 34:14 – For thou shalt worship no other god: for Yahweh, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

    I really wish you would read carefully what I say before you quote scripture to correct me.  The above verse says that I should worship no other God but Yahweh.  Please re-read what I said “I worship ONE God (Yahweh) and I worship Jesus as the Son of God and as Lord”. — I worship Jesus as the Son of God, not as God.  So I DO worship only one God.  All the scripture you quoted speaks about worshipping another God.  I do no worship any other God.  You are the one who worships the Son and the Holy spirit as a God, not I.

    Then you quote “If Jesus Christ isn’t God, then there is a big problem we face when we worship Him, since we are only to worship God.  However, you and I are not alone in worshipping Christ.  The following verses show that Jesus is worshipped through the New Testatment:”  then you have quoted bible passages.

    Again you have miss-read what the scripture clearly says.  The Magi worshipped him as King of the Jews.  In the ship they worshipped him as the Son of God.  He was also worshipped as Lord.  The Angels of GOD worshipped him when he came into the world (as a Son).  Please note that NOBODY in these quotes worshipped him as GOD.  So my worshipping Jesus as the Son of God is in keeping with these versus.

    * * * *

    You also quoted the following:

    “Finally, there have been many verses posted showing that Jesus is not the Father.  I completely agree.  These verses refer to Jesus Christ and God as separate persons.  You even have shown that Christ and the Father have different positions, indicating that Christ couldn’t possibly be God. ….”

    Have you read what you wrote.  You have admitted that the verses refer to Jesus and God as separate persons.  I am at a loss to understand your thinking.  You have told me that Jesus is GOD so how can you say this if you have just accepted that the verses show them as separate??
    * * * * *
    I welcome your comments.

    God Bless

    #15268
     Ambassador of Christ 
    Member
    • Topics started 0
    • Total replies 30

    To all:

    I have a lot to respond to, as well as a lot to respond with. However, the one thing I do not have a lot of is time. I just started a full 21 hours of college classes this week, and it eats up all of my time. I wish I had more time to post, but I don’t. If anyone would like to continue this discussion, I would be more than happy to talk with you in a way that allows us to interact faster. I would be happy to meet anyone on Instant Messenger, Paltalk, or MIRC. Again, here is how you can reach me:

    instant messenger name: Tuliptrinitarian or SavedByBelieving

    Paltalk name: Ambassador_of_Christ

    MIRC: Connect with an IRC starlink-irc server, then type /join #prosapologian or /join #apologetics

    That is how you can reach me. I would love to continue talking with all of you in the time I do have, so if you would like, please feel free to set up a time with me and I will meet you on any of those chat programs and we can discuss this subject. I find that Paltalk is a great way to interact in that you can use a microphone. However, I will meet anywhere that is best for you. I believe t8 wants to keep it on the website for others to read, so anything we discuss you can save and post in on your website when you have the time.

    I hope to talk with you soon,

    -God Bless

    #15282
     t8 
    Participant
    • Topics started 889
    • Total replies 18,304

    Thanks Ambassador  for your input so far. Feel free to join in again when and if time becomes available to you again. In the meantime I hope and pray that you will be open, humble and teachable in all things; only then can God lead us on to his great and wonderful purposes and truths that He wants to reveal to us. I will continue to answer the questions and statements you have made, so feel free to read over them even if you don’t make a reply. Anyway I hope your studies go well.

    I invite others to join in this discussion, but before you join in, please read this discussion from the beginning so that we don’t have to go over ground that we have already covered.

    I believe that this subject needs to be discussed in the open. When the trinity doctrine was enforced many hundreds of years ago, it was done so behind closed doors and then forced onto the people using political power. Today we have the opportunity to discuss this doctrine in the open without losing our lives, and discussing this subject in an open way means that we can all be lead into the truth, because the ways of God should not be hidden, but rather light should shine out in the open for all to see.

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