Trinity (Part 1)

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  • #15504
     Ambassador of Christ 
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    I also want to make one more quick post before I write my response to my first. I am going to just list the verses. I feel they speak for themselves. I am asking for t8 to give his thoughts on them. Thanks.

    Isaiah 42:8 "I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images."

    John 17:5 "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."

    (Additional verses on Christ’s glory: Matthew 19:28, Matthew 25:31, Luke 2:32, Hebrews 13:20-21, 2 Peter 2:18, Revelation 5:11-12)

    #15500
     LodeRunner 
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    To t8,
      Some of (well most or all of really) the writings accessible through your main page are extremely similar (and dead on in many cases) to that of the Jehovah's witnesses.  In your attempts to use God's word alon and to think about it logically and reasonably (which is exactly what the Jehovah's Witness that interrupted my yardwork last Saturday tried to do), you commit many logical errors.

    Quote
    Also what do you mean by “excommunicated”. Kicked out of Jesus Christs Church (the Body of Christ) or the man-made church, or perhaps you have some other meaning. Sorry if I seem harsh about this, but I mean to be firm.

    Funny that you speak of judging with little evidence.  You judge the King James Version of the Bible based on far less evidence than I have when I speak of Arius.  Of course, passages taken from your own website, you reiterate taht we should just use God's word.  In doing so you contradict EVERYTHING you have to say.  Everytime you comment on the Bible, you add your own perception to it.  How do you know that you are right?  You can't prove it, because your approach to this “let's just use the Bible” won't let you.  Do you know what a creed is?  And if you don't how can you be so opposed to them?  Everytime you make a judgment statement, you make a creed.  Creed is derived from Latin “Credo” which means, “I believe.”  Any time you make a judgment, you say “I believe this.”  You undermine your own position in doing so (which is fine be me, but you might want to rethink your position on creeds.)

    As to historical evidence:  I was using histories that base their information on the church records of the era, which fared far better than the civil government records for the simple fact that during this period Rome as a civil power was rotting from the inside.  The Church however kept scrupulous records of these things, ESPECIALLY the  church council meatings.

    You question my use of the word Excommunicate.  By definition, excommunicate is to exclude from (very summarized version).  In church contexts, we use the word excommunicate to mean that one who is excommunicated is forbidden from the church, and the sacraments (Lord's Supper, and Baptism).  if the excommunicated person admits to their wrong and repents (asks forgiveness of the church) then they are recieved with open arms.  Of course, excommunication is not undertaken lightly.  It is used in extreme cases, where the precepts set forth in Matthew 18 have been used to no avail.  First, the offended person confronts (speaks with, not challenges) the other person.  Failing a remedy at this stage, witnesses of the event (and extra people to witness the exchange) are brought in.  Failing this, the matter is taken to the church court.  If at this juncture, the accused refuses to ask forgiveness, excommunication ensues.  Of course, the church can make mistakes, after all, we are all merely human.  But understand this:  They were working much closer to the time and in the langauges that it was written, so they did not have to deal with translators playing with the words.

    I did some checking, and I agree, I John 5:7 should be noted (actually in the margin of my KJV Bible, it is noted that it was added, taken from the Greek text reproduced c. AD 1215).  But, in my arguments, I wouldn't use that reference anyway, I have plenty of others that are untaouched by translation additions/subtractions.  Also, I do know that the translators added some words.  If you look in a good KJV Bible, you'll notice some parts of verses in italics.  This is because some passages grammatically in ENGLISH wouldn't make sense without the addition, and in fact, the translators of 1611 (the first year the KJV or Authorized Version {AV} was produced) noted that they made additions, and where.  Can you say the same of any newer Bible?  Many just take for granted certain things, and yet the Old (1611) translators (die hard trinitarians every one of them, given the year and church records) made careful note of their changes to the text, and left original passages intact for comparison with the changes.  Enough on that for now.

    Quote
    The two most famous of these men were Arius and Athanasius, both of Alexandria. Arius held that Christ is the Son of God, and that he was begotten (born) of the Father and therefore giving supremacy to the Father

    ^^^^
    Taken from your own page on why you don't believe the Trinity.  Your summation of Arius' beliefs are incorrect.  He believed that Christ was purely human and had no part of God, and actively denied the Trinity.

    Quote
    There were many in the first few centuries of the Christian church who began to teach and preach “Another Gospel”, but few were as damaging to the church as the followers of Arius. They denied the true deity of Christ and said He was merely the first and greatest creature created by God. They also said that sometime after his creation he was made “a god” but never was considered equal with God. Arius was a learned teacher and presbyter of the Alexandrian church in Egypt. He began spreading his doctrine in 319 A.D. As his teachings began to divide the Christian church, this Arian heresy was confronted and condemned as false at the Council of Nicaea, in 325 A.D. Arius of Alexandria was branded a heretic and along with a few followers was excommunicated from the church.


    ^^^^

    Taken from http://www.christianlink.com/proclaim/radio/arius-tx.html

    Quote

    Let us go back to the Council of Nicea (325 AD).  The great controversy that occasioned the convening of the first General or Ecumenical Council of the Christian Church was centered around the true doctrine of the Person of Jesus Christ. Arius,  a presbyter in the church  at Alexandria, propounded the theory that our Lord was a created being. He denied the clear teachings of the Bible such as in Psalm 2, Psalm 110, John 1, Hebrews 1, Ephesians 1, Colossians 1, and Revelation 1. Another Alexandrian presbyter, Athanasius (293-373,)defended the Biblical teaching about the Messiah, by stressing both the deity and humanity of Jesus Christ. His position was accepted by the Council, and the Creed that was issued at Nicea, is known as the Nicene Creed. Since that time, it became the standard of Orthodoxy in Christianity. The teachings of Arius became known as Arianism, and his followers were called, Arians. They were considered as heretics. Arianism spread among the Barbarians who later on invaded Rome, Spain, and North Africa.

    It must be noted that delegates from of both the Western and Eastern parts of the Universal Church were at Nicea. The Council of Nicea dealt primarily with the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ. The discussions within the Church relevant to the relationship between the human and divine natures of Jesus Christ, led to further divisions. These occurred within the  Byzantine Empire and the Eastern Orthodox Church.

    Several Ecumenical Councils took place after Nicea, Council of Constantinople (381,) Council of Ephesus (431,) and Council of Chalcedon (451.) At this meeting, Christian Orthodoxy was further defined as to declare that, since his incarnation,
    the Lord Jesus Christ possessed two natures, divine and human. That also meant that our Lord had two wills, divine and human, but he remained one Person. Later on, this belief was set forth in a creed known as the Athanasian Creed.  This creedal document is recognized only in the West, and is also known by its Latin name, Symbol Quicunque; (its opening words are: “Whosoever will be saved…”

    Rather than consolidating the unity of the Church, Chalcedon became the occasion for new divisions. Some church leaders, while strongly adhering to the deity of Jesus Christ, nevertheless defended the thesis that he possessed only a divine nature. They were known as the Monophysites. They were very prominent in Egypt and in Syria. Other church leaders, endeavoring to take full account of the Biblical teachings about Jesus Christ, went to the other extreme. They so described the two natures and wills of the Messiah as to make him almost two persons.  They were called the Nestorians, i.e., followers of Bishop Nestorius of Constantinople,  who was the champion of this teaching.

    The Monophysite and Nestorian Churches were declared heretical by the Eastern Orthodox Churches.


    ^^^^^^
    Taken from http://www.safeplace.net/members/mer/MER_p004.htm

    Quote
    In John chapter 8, Jesus was in heated debate with the Pharisees. The discussion came to an abrupt end in verse 58, when “Jesus said unto them, `Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am.'” This, to the Jews, was the straw that broke the camels back. Why? Because Jesus was referring to the phrase found in the common Greek scriptures of the day, the Septuagint. The verse found, in Exodus 3:14, where God said to Moses, “I AM THAT I AM: … Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.” In the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures, published by the Watchtower, they translate John 8:58, “Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have Been.” The scholarly sounding footnote says, that this phrase is, ” after the a'orist infinitive clause … and, hence, properly rendered in the perfect indefinite tense.” This sounds very impressive, and Jehovah's Witnesses feel this is great truth coming down from the learned Bible scholars at the Watchtower. The truth of the matter is, there is no such thing as the “perfect indefinite tense” anywhere in the Greek language. When this fact was pointed out to the Watchtower and the world, shortly after this “translation” was published, they decided to go to “plan B”, which was to change the statement in the footnote from reading, the “perfect indefinite tense” to the “perfect tense.” This was done to cover up the lie, wherein the Watchtower invented a tense in the Greek language to avoid the fact that Jesus took the name applied to God in the Old Testament and applied it to Himself. This was the reason that in verse 59 the Jews tried to stone Him. The reason is expanded on in John 10:33 when the Jews said, “For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.” And even “plan B” was wrong, because, EGO EIMI translated “I AM” is simply in the present tense.


    ^^^^^^^
    Taken from http://www.christianlink.com/proclaim/radio/plan-b.html

    This last quote was aimed at JW and t8.  I thought of not including it, but know how Watchtower cultists like to equivocate over little things like that, I though it best to include a somewhat scathing analysis of the issue in hand.

    Well, it is very likely that I will not be able to post again for a couple weeks, I'm going to Europe soon and many things must be tended to before that.  If I don't add more to this in the next 4 days, then my next post, including examples of what I'm talking about (regarding your logical errors, t8) sometime around the 30th.  Also, I'll include some stuff from the Westminster Catechisms and the Hiedelberg Catechism.  Probably more stuff than that.

    :::EDIT:::
    Please forgive the minor errors, it seems the BB softare isn't reading all of the quote tags I used properly.
    :::EDIT:::

    (Edited by LodeRunner at 5:17 pm on June 6, 2002)

    #15624
     t8 
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    I have no qualms with the The Apostle's Creed as it is written in your post. In my opinion I think that it is accurate. It doesn't mention the trinity, but acknowledges the Father Son and Holy Spirit and describes who they are. I think that God hasn't been made into an idol yet.

    With regard to The Nicene Creed you have quoted, in my opinion, I agree with all of it except for the worship of the Holy Spirit. I have yet to read a scripture that teaches the worship the Holy Spirit. Please show me? As far as I know, the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and Son and seeks no attention for himself, he only seeks to glorify God our Father and his Son. Nowhere in scripture (as far as I know) are we taught, told or shown that we can pray to the Holy Spirit either. Again, the Holy Spirit seeks only to lead us to all truth (Jesus) and to glorify the Father and the Son. The Holy Spirit takes no glory for himself, he serves the Father and the Son.

    I have some serious issues with the The Athanasian Creed, which wasn't written by Athanasius as I am sure that you are aware, given that you quote that it's from the 5th Century.

    ========
    First of all it states, as written in your post, that we will perish eternally if we do not agree with it. This type of control is just not scriptural, it is the mind of man and fear of man, it clearly shows his reasoning. Show me some scriptures to back up this exceptional claim.
    ========
    Second, I would like you to compare the following statement
    “But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is One, the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal”, with
    Mark 10:17-18 (English-NIV)
    17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
    18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good, except God alone.

    and John 14:28 (English-NIV),
    “You heard me say, `I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

    and John 10:29
    29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

    Which one shall I believe? The Creed or the scriptures. Or perhaps the scriptures have been altered or need to be put in a context? What are your thoughts here.
    ========
    Thirdly the quote: “the father infinite, the Son infinite, and the Holy Spirit infinite; the Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal”.

    I am not to sure about this one. If the Son is begotten as the scriptures teach, can we draw the conclusion that Jesus is infinite and eternal. I mean to be begotten (born) or come from, in my human reasoning means that Jesus had to have come from God, but what was before that. If you could show me a scripture that shows that Jesus is everlasting to everlasting, then I could believe this in faith. I am open to learning something here, (or anything for that matter) if it is scriptural.

    Do checkout Proverbs 8:22-30. It speaks of someone who was brought forth as the first of Gods works.
    This person was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
    This person was given birth before creation.
    This person helped in crafting creation.

    Who is this person? This person sounds very similar to the Word in John 1:1 if you ask me. If it's not the word, then who is it?

    Also read Hebrews 1:5 (English-NIV)
    5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”
    To me this is saying that God became a Father, when he begat his Son.
    ========
    Next we have this statement: “So, likewise, the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty; and yet not three almighties but one almighty.

    First of all I think that we can all agree that the Father is the Almighty and the Most High God. But I need a scripture that says Jesus and the Holy Spirit are also Almighty. I know that the scriptures say that Jesus is the Mighty God in (Isaiah 9:6) and I believe this. But almighty means to be the mightiest of the mighty. This is scriptural because even though Jesus is great, his Father is greater. One scripture each to prove that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are Almighty would be helpful.
    ========
    The next statement: “So the Father is God, the Son God, and the Holy Spirit God; and yet not three Gods but one God. So the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord; and yet not three Lords but one Lord.

    Please compare this to 1 Corinthians 8:6 (English-NIV)
    6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

    In my opinion, one came from the spirit of man and the other from the Spirit of God? Which one shall I believe, the Creed or the scripture?
    ========
    Next we have this statement: “For like as we are compelled by Christian truth to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be both God and Lord; so are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say, there be three Gods or three Lords”.

    This statement is blatantly telling us to be compelled by Christian truth and by the catholic religion. This is clearly wrong. First of all Christian truth is not Christ, it is that which we interpret as truth  from the Truth. We should always be lead into truth by the Holy Spirit and aknowledging that Jesus is that Truth. We should always go to the source (Jesus). Not the consequence but the cause. We shouldn't seek mans interpretation, but the Truth himself. This is part of the reason why Jesus will say to some “depart from me for I never knew you”. Some have a form of godliness, they know and say somethings in the bible, but they do not know its author. They are just carnal, lazy religious people with no power from God. Secondly this statement tells us to adhere to the fear of man. It is God and his Son that forbids, not a religion. If we let religion forbid us to do things then we are in danger departing grace, and becoming that person who Paul warns us about “Be aware of those who say do not touch and do not taste”. Such things are not for us to dictate. Also Christianity is a created thing. We should never worship or fear anything created. We should fear God. It has never been about following Christianity. It is about Christ himself. If we worship or serve christianty and/or creation, we have lost the plot.

    In my opinion, I can see the cunning of the serpent here. Just as he decieved Eve in the Garden, he uses subtle lies that look like truth. He is leading people from the scriptures and revealed things of God, to the created things, which leads to idol worship. History bears this one out, because creed followed creed and eventually idols, icons, Mary and the saints were worshipped, all permissible by the wisdom of man and his so-called creeds and church. It all happened at a slow enough pace so that deception gradually caught people unaware. What comes from the spirit of man cannot possibly come from the Spirit of God. Mans wisdom is utter foolishness in the eyes of God, I think creeds is Mans's wisdom. We have no excuse for this behaviour, as we have the scriptures and the Holy Spirit to guide us. But that is too much hard work for some. They need summaries written by men, so it saves them the trouble of finding it themselves. Summaries are ok as long as you check them with scripture and as long as you do not dictate that this is the faith or the only truth. To answer such things we need scripture.
    ========
    Next we have this statement: “equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood”.

    I think the scriptures teach that Jesus is subject to God and always has been. On earth as a man, in Heaven as the Son of God and Lamb of God and also before he came to earth
    as the Word. He has always been sub-ordinate to the Father.
    See John 14:28, John 5:30, John 20:17, Rev1:1, Hebrews 5:8-10, Proverbs 30:4, Proverbs 8:22-30.
    ========
    Other parts of this creed that I didn't address, may have been due to me agreeing with the statement or I wasn't sure about it and had nothing to say at the time.

    Anyway you have most likely figured out that I do not like creeds, but I do appreciate the fact that you posted them. I think, creeds are a subtle tactic of the enemy to lead men away from the scriptures.

    When Christ first started his Church it was based on truth, scripture and the words of Christ. The Church was like a fire from God it burned brightly and hot, and consumed much of the Devils works. The Devil saw this fire and tried to blow it out with persecution and death, instead he just spread the fire to other areas of the world. In the end the Devil being the crafty serpent that he is, brought the fire down to a managable level by first of all seperating the fire from the fuel (from truth and scripture to the reasoning of men), and then containing the fire into different sections (organisations and institutions). But he could never put the fire out completely as there were and are always hot spots, that could ignite and did/do ignite from time to time.

    The truth that the enemy is trying to seperate from us is contained in the scriptures. If he can get men to summarise the faith and give it a name like the ???? creed”, then this will help the devil's cause by allowing for the creation of a comfortable religion, which takes all the hard work out of seeking the truth (Jesus). Now we can now just read this creed and say yeah I believe that now, I am saved, great that was easy, don't need to check it out from the scriptures either, most people are happy when I confess the creed, very convenient. The the first creed would have to be accurate or near accurate for men to follow it, especially considering the amount of truth and revelation in the beginning. Once you have men trusting in a creed it is then possible to slowly introduce appealing philosophies that although may based in scripture, can lead to halmful consequences later on, such as replacing the fear of God with the fear of man, and serving God to serving an organisation. Once people believe a creed that gives authority to an organisation that threatens death to heretics, people will be to scared to question, especially if the churches preach damnation and #### fire every Sunday. Now the net has been cast, and it is time to introduce some idolatory, but you can excuse it by saying that you must be using it to worship God, at this stage you can get men to worship icons, idols, Mary and the Saints a departing from the truth.

    It's like a parable I once heard, probably a cliche by now, but it's about cooking a frog. You put a frog into a pot of cold water and he thinks this ain't so bad. Then you to turn up the heat a little and he thinks it's a little uncomfortable, but ok. The heat is turned up gradually and slow enough that the frog doesn't bother jumping out of the pot until he finally boils to death. If the frog was thrown into the hot water immediately, it would know straight away something was wrong and try to escape. I think that the devils schemes are like this. They can be slow enough for people to just get use to each change, and in the end we are lead away from the truth and once it becomes tradition, it is very hard for people to let go. At least today we have the luxury of looking back into history and seeing the consequences of such things, and the results they produced. But some people do not learn from history, and that is a shame, because you can excuse people to a degree who sow things thinking that the works will accomplish God's will (like Abraham when he tried to fulfill the prophecy about his offspring being like the sand in the sea-shore. Abraham in his own wisdom had sex with a servant and the result was Ishmael the Father of the Arabs, who to this day are bitter enemies of the Jews). But when we have the ability to learn from history, but we repeat it's mistakes, then we are more responsible for our actions. Stumbling blocks are inevitiable, but woe to the men that lay them.

    Mans creeds were destined to end in idolatry because only the truth can set us free. Creeds are destined to lead to luke warmness because creeds move us away from scripture. They are the mind of man and a subtle weapon in the enemies hands. I do not believe that creeds are inspired by God or that they are scripture, I don't even think that they claim inspiration, (not sure). But it seems strange to me that it's more ok to ignore scripture than a creed. I think men trust in creeds more than scripture, because they trust in their own understanding, rather than revelation. History shows us that at one point, the scriptures weren't even available to people, and they could only hear interpretations by church ministers who read Latin bibles. I am relying on recorded history here. When men tried to convert or print the bible for the common people, they were killed or persecuted, (I would say by the same spirit and organisation that created the creeds in the first place). They were allowed the creeds however, but they taught idolatry, and men began to trust creeds as if it was scripture itself. Eventually something had to give, and there was a reformation. A movement that challenged the creeds and the accepted truth of the day.

    I think denominations exist because of creeds, most of them have a creed of some sort as their foundation. I read somewhere that most denominations resulted in a dispute among the previous denomination that it came from, can't verify it, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was true. Denomination is just a fancy word for division, and they will always exist until we give up trusting in the words of men or God pronounces final judgement. It's just the tower of Babel all over again. Making a name for oneself and reaching heaven in our own strength. Divided language is the result of Babel and so it is in chistianity. We have different denominations that compete with each other. There is only one true church, the Body of Christ. Paul warned us that wolves in sheeps clothing would come amongst us and spare us not, after he died. Why; because he was an Apostle, and he guarded the Church from false teachings and the wisdom of man. He knew that this would happen once his Apostolic covering was gone. We would be vunerable. But it is prophecied that there would be a great falling away from the truth, and this has already happened along time ago in my opinion.

    If we study Babylon (the city) we will see that they were into idolatory, money, religion, a trinity and worship of the mother of god etc. My message is that God's people must come out of her today, whatever she is (maybe a system?). She is the Mother of all Harlots and she has made the whole world drunk on her wine, and committed adultry with the Kings of the earth. She is also guilty of the blood of the Martyrs. We should pay her back 10 times what she gave us. This harlot rides on the back of the beast with 7 heads and sits on the city of seven hills (Rome?). One of those heads was the Roman Empire.

    To come out of her is to come out of idolatory, love and reliance on money, false religion and serving a system, rather than God and his Son. I think that the trinity doctrine either formed the basis of this system, or at least was an entry into that system.

    #15595
     t8 
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    To LodeRunner

    Regarding this quote:

    Some of (well most or all of really) the writings accessible through your main page are extremely similar (and dead on in many cases) to that of the Jehovah’s witnesses.

    My answer is that I am not and have never been a JW. I am totally against christian organisations that try to make a name for themselves. If it is not the name of Jesus then it is ultimately Man not Christ. I make this judgement for all organisations that make a name for themselves and/or say they are the only way. Jesus is the only way. He is the only mediator between God and Man. I do not agree with their teachings on 144000 people saved in heaven. I do not believe that Jesus is Michael the Archangel and I certainly do not believe in their message of salvation. I think that they think that born-again is for those 144,000 who inherit heaven, (is this true JW?).

    Do you think that the JWs are completely wrong in everything. If they were, I doubt that they would have many members. To get people to join a false organisation of any type, you need to bait people with truth, but hide the line of error that will reel them in. This is a common tactic of the enemy. He did the same thing to Eve. ¨You will become like God knowing good and evil¨.

    But just because we (JW & t8) may agree on the falseness of creeds and trinity doesn’t mean that I belong to that organisation.

    I think that the Sabbath day is Saturday, but that doesn´t make me a Seven Day Adventist. I believe that Jesus is the Son of the living God, the Christ the Messiah and the Word. That confession doesn´t make me a trinity follower. I agree with equal rights in society for woman, but that doesn´t make me a woman.
    ============
    Regarding your quote: Funny that you speak of judging with little evidence. You judge the King James Version of the Bible based on far less evidence than I have when I speak of Arius.

    I have studied books written by scholars and their reasons for translating the way they have and the difficulties involved. I know alot more about the King James Bible and other bibles than perhaps you think, but that is another discussion.
    ============
    Regarding your quote that says Of course, passages taken from your own website, you reiterate taht we should just use God’s word. In doing so you contradict EVERYTHING you have to say. Everytime you comment on the Bible, you add your own perception to it. How do you know that you are right? You can’t prove it, because your approach to this "let’s just use the Bible" won’t let you. Do you know what a creed is? And if you don’t how can you be so opposed to them? Everytime you make a judgment statement, you make a creed. Creed is derived from Latin "Credo" which means, "I believe." Any time you make a judgment, you say "I believe this." You undermine your own position in doing so (which is fine be me, but you might want to rethink your position on creeds.)

    My position here is 2 fold. First there are absolutes and then there are variables. An absolute is something that you must absolutely believe in to be considered to have true faith. A variable is something that we are allowed to have an opinion on, that doesn´t jeopardise unity in any way.
    Also we are all allowed to have opinions, even Paul had opinions. See Corinthians 7:12.

    Now you could say that Jesus had green hair and was Chinese, and I may disagree with you, but it doesn´t make any difference so long as you believe in the absolute, that Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah. Some absolutes that we must believe in order to have true faith is repentance; believing that Jesus is the Son of the Living God, the Messiah; that God exists and eternal judgement. I am sure that we agree on these points, and as far as I´m concerned I can have unity of faith with you, if you or anyone believes and lives these truths. Now I express my belief and I am entitled to do such, just as you are. What I am objecting to here is that the Christian System dictates that I believe in the trinity doctrine as an absolute, when this is just not scriptural. If you believe in the trinity, then you are entitled to such a belief, so long as you believe that God exists and Jesus is his Son and he is the mediator between God and Man, then I can still have unity of faith with you, and I will just add that I enjoy your posts. Iron sharpens iron and I only want the truth. I will say that you are entitled to believe that Jesus is fully God, yet somehow 1/3 of God at the same time. But to inflict this variable as an absolute is so wrong. I object to it and think it a bullying tactic from organised religion to get you to follow, fear and obey those who dictate this variable. It´s about control. But I try not to be controlled by man, rather I want to obey God, even if I have to pay with my life, I am willing to die for the Truth.

    As far as I am concerned here are 2 absolutes:
    Matthew 16:13-17 (English-NIV)
    13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples,
    "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
    14 They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
    15 "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
    16 Simon Peter answered, "YOU ARE THE CHRIST, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD."
    17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

    Its a pity that Peter didn´t say that Jesus was God, like most trintarians would have said in this situation. If that happened, this discussion wouldn´t even be taking place.

    and

    John 17:3
    Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    I believe both scriptures with all my heart. But please show me a scripture that says that eternal life is to believe that Jesus is God? or that we are not saved if we don´t believe that Jesus is God? I want a scripture, not a creed.
    ============
    I am familiar with the word ¨excommunicate¨ that you have used and I agree with it. I cannot argue with it because it is scriptural and I have believed in this teaching for sometime. It should be used in the context of a brother who sins against you. Show me where this is used to oust someone who doesn´t believe in the trinity or any other opinion. If I do not believe in the trinity have I sinned against you, or if my brother believes that Jesus had green hair has he sinned against me. I think not. People have been excomunicated because they didn´t believe in a certain creed. I think Luther was excommunicated, wasn´t he?
    ============
    With regards to Arius ,I do not consider myself to be a follower of Arius. I really don´t have alot of information about him, and the history regarding his beliefs. I have read that he considered Jesus to be divine, but that the Father was greater than him. I think Arius´s teachings were close to Proverbs 8:22-30 and that his supposed sin was his confession that Jesus had a beginning because he was the only begotten of the Father. To excommunicate someone over that opinion is wrong in my opinion. Although it depends what we are being excommunicated from Matthew 18 or some religious institution that isn´t the Body of Christ, but some man-made organisation. Excommunication by a religious institution is probably a good thing anyway.

    Anyway most people can´t see past 2 choices this is why politicians use this tactic. Maybe they were both wrong? We don´t have to take sides here. I am only interested in a teaching if you can back it up with scripture.
    ============
    Arius denied the clear teachings of the Bible such as in Psalm 2, Psalm 110, John 1, Hebrews 1, Ephesians 1, Colossians 1, and Revelation 1.

    In what way?
    ============
    Regarding your quote, Athanasian Creed. This creedal document is recognized only in the West.

    I was told by a historian once that the Eastern Orthodox was actually bigger in population tha
    n the western Church. Is this true? Regardless, it just goes to show you that I am not alone in not accepting this particular creed. Would your belief be different if you were born in the East I wonder?
    ============
    Your last quote with regards to ¨I Am¨, I will reply in another post that concentrates on scripture, I will address scriptures quoted by Ambassador of Christ too.

    Thanks.

    #15206
     JW 
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    I would like to say that anywhere i get my material from is directly from the watchtower society, the mateiral i got came directly from our website at http://www.watchtower.org The trinity publication can be found within there, and it has a nice layout and strong points as to why we believe what we do

    as for comments made about our religion being a cult, the idea is incorrect as we are a bible based religion with a message of peace, united world wide, we do not believe in things such as mass suicide or locate to a remote area like cults do however we live our lives within the community helping where we can but not conflicting with the word of god, after all he did say love thy nieghbor. I hope this clarifies any misconception anyone would have against my religion, I am not here to mock anyone elses and I simply wish to give a different perspective on a controversial doctrine that has been argued about since its origin, not from the word of god, but from an ungodly pagan emperor and a doctrine that if were true wouldve been made as clear as possible by god

    (Edited by JW at 4:20 am on June 8, 2002)

    #15221
     Ambassador of Christ 
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    This is in reply to t8:

    I was just reading your post. I have a few things to comment on, but I will start first with the following:

    you said, "Do checkout Proverbs 8:22-30. It speaks of someone who was brought forth as the first of Gods works.
    This person was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
    This person was given birth before creation.
    This person helped in crafting creation.

    Who is this person? This person sounds very similar to the Word in John 1:1 if you ask me. If it’s not the word, then who is it? "

    Indeed, I believe that this proverb which speaks of a person called "wisdon" refers to the Word before He became human. However, reading this proverb, one might think it shows that "wisdom", or as we agree, the Word, was created. It in fact does not. Proverbs 8:22-25 (RSV) says:

    "The LORD created me at the beginning of His work, the first of his acts of old. Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. When there was no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water. Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth.

    The Hebrew word that usually means create (bara) is not used in verse 22. Rather, the Hebrew word that is used is the word qanah. This word is used well over 70 times in the Old Testament. Nearly each time this word is used it means "to get, or acquire" Nowhere in verse 22, or anywhere else in this proverb is "wisdom", or as we agree, the Word, shown to be created. He is shown to be acquired and brought forth. The Father acquired the Word and He was brought forth and they worked together in the performing God’s work. In order to be acquired and brought forth, the Word would already had to have be there. This proverb does not show that the Word was created, it only shows that He was already there and was brought forth to work with the Father in God’s magnificent works.

    #15174
     Ambassador of Christ 
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    This is in response to t8: "If you could show me a scripture that shows that Jesus is everlasting to everlasting, then I could believe this in faith"

    If Jesus is not everlasting to everlasting, then at some point Jesus would have to have been made and created. However, Jesus Christ could not have been created based on the following verses:

    John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made

    Colossians 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

    These verses clearly state that ALL things were made and created by Jesus Christ.

    We also know that all things were made and created by God:

    Revelation 4:11 "You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being."

    We now know that God as well as Jesus Christ created all things. Even if one does not believe that this fact alone shows that Jesus CHrist would have to be God in order to participate in creation, at the very least one would have to agree based off scripture that Jesus Christ did participate in creation of all things.

    As we look at the verses, we find that Jesus Christ participated in the creation of ALL things. These verses also tell us that ALL things that have ever been created and made were done so by Jesus Christ.

    Anyone who believes that Jesus Christ is not everlasting to everlasting, but was created, would have to also believe that Jesus Christ created himself. If all things were created by Christ, and Christ himself was created, then He would had to have participated in His own creation. This is of course impossible and raises contradictions in scripture. Therefore, Jesus Christ was never created, but rather He is everlasting to everlasting.

    Finally, a few of the many other verses that show CHrist to be everlasting:

    Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

    Revelation 1:17-18 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

    Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders.
    And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    #15190
     Ambassador of Christ 
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    This is to answer the request for scripture that says Jesus Christ is almighty:

    In the following verse is a song of the Lamb, Jesus Christ. In the song, He is refered to as almighty.

    Revelation 15:2-4 ". . . .They held harps given them by God and sang the song of Moses the servant of God and the song of the Lamb: "Great and marvelous are your deeds, Lord God Almighty Just and true are your ways, King of the ages. Who will not fear you, O Lord, and bring glory to your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed."

    The following are more verses affirming Christ as almighty:

    Revelation 11:17 ". . . .saying: "We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign."

    Revelation 16:7 "And I heard the altar respond: "Yes, Lord God Almighty, true and just are your judgments."

    Revelation 19:6 "Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting: "Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns"

    Other verses that refer to Christ as Almighty can be found in the Old Testament. Though those verses refer to YAHWEH as almighty, it still refers to Christ in that He revealed himself as YAHWEH in the Old Testament. Scripture affirms this fact in many places, but I will point to just one for starters.

    John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.

    HOWEVER, Jacob, Moses, the elders of Israel, Manoah, and his wife all saw God. If this verse is true, and God the Father has never been seen, then who could those people have seen God, unless it was a part of God that wasnt the Father. They in fact saw God the Son. I can elaborate on this issure more, but I’d like to see your thoughts first and then answer any questions or comments you might have.

    -God Bless

    #15144
     t8 
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    I will post again soon.
    I have been extremely busy over the last month and a half.

    #15116
     Ramblinrose 
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    Sorry, that last post was for Ambassodor of Christ. This one is also:

    You quoted the following.

    ****** In the following verse is a song of the Lamb, Jesus Christ. In the song, He is refered to as almighty.

    Revelation 15:2-4 ". . . .They held harps given them by God and sang the song of Moses the servant of God and the song of the Lamb: "Great and marvelous are your deeds, Lord God Almighty Just and true are your ways, King of the ages. Who will not fear you, O Lord, and bring glory to your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed." *******

    Please, please reread you scripture. I quote

    Rev 15:2 ….
    “And I saw what appeared to be a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name, standing beside the sea of glass with harps of God in their hands.
    And they sing THE SONG OF MOSES, the servant of God, and THE SONG OF THE LAMB, saying, "Great and wonderful are thy deeds, O Lord God the Almighty! Just and true are thy ways, O King of the ages!
    4 Who shall not fear and glorify thy name, O Lord? For thou alone art holy. All nations shall come and worship thee, for thy judgments have been revealed."

    Those who had conquered the beast were singing THE SONG OF MOSES and the SONG OF THE LAMB. They were singing a song that both Moses and the Lamb (Jesus) would sing. They are the authors of the song, they sing it to God. God is great and wonderful, he is the Lord God the Almighty.

    Then you quote the following

    ***Revelation 11:17 ". . . .saying: "We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign."****

    You need to stop selecting just one verse and read more before and after a verse, please see the following: from Revelation 11:

    Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our LORD AND OF HIS CHRIST, and He shall reign forever and ever!"
    16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before GOD on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped GOD,
    17 saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.

    Once again this passage is speaking about God, Jesus is only mentioned in passing, all the praise is for GOD. He will judge, it is his kingdom we seek. Remember this prayer.

    Our Father, who are in heaven, hallowed be thy name, THY KINGDOM COME, THEY WILL BE DONE, ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN……

    This is the same for the next two passages rev: 16.7 and 19.6 which you have quoted. Please re-read these scripture in their entirety and you will see that the are speaking about God and not Jesus.

    You mention at the end:

    ***John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.

    HOWEVER, Jacob, Moses, the elders of Israel, Manoah, and his wife all saw God. If this verse is true, and God the Father has never been seen, then who could those people have seen God, unless it was a part of God that wasnt the Father. They in fact saw God the Son. I can elaborate on this issure more, but I’d like to see your thoughts first and then answer any questions or comments you might have.***

    You will find that if you read the old testatment, anyone who saw or spoke to an Angel says that they have seen God when the bible specifically says they spoke to an angel. eg. Hagar and Ishmael Genesis 16, please read the whole chapter (very short). You can see that at:

    verse 7 “The angel of the LORD found Hagar near a spring in the desert… “

    then at verse 9 it says “Then the angel of the LORD told her…”

    and Verse 10 says “Then the Angel of the LORD said to her, "I will multiply your descendants exceedingly, so that they shall not be counted for multitude.”

    and Verse 11 also says – And the Angel of the LORD said to her: "Behold, you are with child, And you shall bear a son. You shall call his name Ishmael, Because the LORD has heard your affliction.

    "Yet when you get to Verse 13 you will see that things have changed

    “She gave this name to the LORD who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,” for she said, “ I have now seen the One who sees me.”

    So it seems that when angels appear carrying Gods message they are looked upon as being God himself.

    Many other passages reflect this. God is said to have been in the pillar of fire and smoke yet this is also said to be an angel. So, those that say they have seen God have seen his messengers.

    This also fits in where Jesus says that if you have seen me you have seen the father. He brought Gods word, just like the angels…

    God Bless

    #15130
     Ambassador of Christ 
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    This is in reply to Ramblinrose:

    I thank you for your reply. I appreciate you taking the time to study God’s word in search for truth. You posted to a lot of things, so to keep from going over too much too fast I will stick with one post at a time. This will help us to explore each idea fully and completely. The first area I would like to respond to is in reference to creation:

    You said: "A house can be built by the future owners who do absolutely no work at all. The house is built through them but the tradesmen with the tools and ability are the ones who do the work. So it is their house, they built it through the tradesmen but they themselves did not lift a hand. They designed it and said which brick, which tiles, how big etc. etc. Therefore they built the house through the workmen. Can you see what I am pointing to.

    God offers to build his son a kingdom. “How would you like it to be” asks God. So they work together on the project but God builds it as he is the one who has the power to do so. So the world was made BY GOD through Jesus. When it comes to creating man God says “Let US make man in our image”. Which fits in perfectly with the above description. They were working on the project together and God the Father has suggested that they make man in their own image (a soul and a spirit). "

    DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE FATHER IS GOD BUT THE SON IS NOT? I am trying to understand who you believe the Father and Son to be and what you believe to be their roles in creation. If I misunderstand what you believe, please correct me. It is not my intention to misrepresent you in any way.

    First: In your analogy, from what I gather, you show the Son to be the “future owner” and the Father to be “the tradesman with the tools and ability.” By saying that the future owner “does absolutely no work at all,” you mean this to show that the Son does “absolutely no work at all.” So in your understanding of creation, the Father is the one who actually does the crafting while the Son dictates, and this interaction between the Father and Son takes place before anything is created. DO I UNDERSTAND YOU CORRECTLY?

    Second: You said that “They were working on the project together.” So the Father is not alone in creating, but has the help of the Son who takes part in creation by describing how it should be. DO I UNDERSTAND YOU CORRECTLY ON THIS?

    Third: In Colossians 1:16 “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:” You question the use of the word “by” and prefer the word “through.” That is fine. Let’s use the word through in verse 16. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT COLOSSIANS 1:16 AS WELL AS JOHN 1:3 IS REFERING TO ALL THINGS? DO YOU BELIEVE THAT EVERY PART OF CREATION WAS CREATED “THROUGH” THE SON?

    I tried to capitalize my questions to you. If you could answer these questions, I think it will give a better understanding of what we believe and how it differs. I think it will be much easier if we go back and forth questioning each other on one specific topic at a time. This will keep out posts specific, direct, and in order.

    -God Bless

    #15346
     Ramblinrose 
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    To Ambassador of Christ,

    What I believe has not necessarily been a long journey but a difficult one.  I attend a church that believes in the trinity and I have tried to accept this belief as I don’t wish to be the odd one out.  I have studied the scripture only to find that there is no Trinity.  I have taken much material off the internet in regard to the Trinity and studied it, but God keeps showing me different. I do not push my view on anyone, I dislike information I read on the internet that states that if I don’t believe in the Trinity I am lost (remember that how you judge you shall also be judged – so everyone should be very careful when making such  judgements).  Please show me the scripture that says I must believe that God is a trinity made up of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
    I am not, and have never been a JW.  I was baptised as a baby a Roman Catholic but no longer follow that denomination.  I have been studying the scripture only a short time compared to many.  I read it at every opportunity, I can’t seem to get enough of it.  God keeps showing me things each time I read it.  I have not done a great deal of study in the Old Testament and I can’t remember Chapter and verse like many others.  I purchased a computer Bible (CD) which has many bible versions as well as commentaries, cross-references, Strong’s, dictionary and other books.  Everything at the flick of a button, or just pop in a phrase (much easier than many bibles and other books open all over the floor).
    What I believe:
    GOD
    There is only one God (Yahweh) the Father.  He created all thing through his Son, Jesus.  I worship one God (Yahweh)  and I worship  Jesus as the Son of God and as Lord.
    1 Corinthians 8:6  yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
    JESUS
    I believe that Jesus is the Son of God.  I believe we have salvation through him.  I believe that God is Jesus’ Father and his God.
    John 20:17  Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
    HOLY SPIRIT
    I believe that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God.  Not a separate person or a force but God’s actual spirit.  God sends part of his spirit to live in us.  Jesus was guided by God’s spirit when he was on earth, even given the spirit without limit.
    John 4:24  “God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
    matthew 10::20  For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
    Matthew 12:28  But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
    Luke 4:18  The Spirit of the LORD is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
    Romans 8:11  But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
    Romans 8:14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
    Romans 15:19  Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
    1 Corinthians 2:10  But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
    1 Corinthians 2:11  For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
    1 Corinthians 2:14  The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
    1 Corinthians 3:16  Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
    1 Corinthians 6:11  And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

    When I read the bible I find many passages that show that God and Jesus are two persons.  The following for example.   Acts 7:55,56
    55  But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
    56  And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
    Please explain to me how, if Jesus is standing on the right hand of GOD, you can say he is God.  How is this possible?  Can you tell me honestly that if you saw the heavens roll back, like Stephen did, and saw Jesus standing at the right hand of GOD, that you would still say that Jesus is God?
    Why is the teaching of the trinity never mentioned in any of the Letters written by the apostles?  Paul preached to Gentiles who did not know God and yet he never clarified this point.  They had never studied the Old Testament and became believers by the words that Paul spoke to them, yet he never taught the Trinity.   The start of all letters shows God and Jesus as two separate persons, as can be seen below.
    .
    1 Corinthians 1:3  Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    2 Corinthians 1:1  Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in all Achaia:
    2 Corinthians 1:2  Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    2 Corinthians 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,
    2 Corinthians 11:31  The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying.
    Galatians 1:1  Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead),
    Galatians 1:3  Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ,
    Galatians 1:4  who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,
    Ephesians 1:1  Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:
    Ephesians 1:2  Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Ephesians 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
    Ephesians 1:17  that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him,
    Philippians 1:2  Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Colossians 1:3  We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
    1 Thessalonians 1:1  Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    1 Thessalonians 1:2  We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers,
    1 Thessalonians 1:3  remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father,
    2 Thessalonians 1:1  Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
    2 Thessalonians 1:2  Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    1 Timothy 1:1  Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the commandment of God our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ, our hope,
    1 Timothy 1:2  To Timothy, a true son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
    2 Timothy 1:1  Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
    2 Timothy 1:2  To Timothy, a beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
    2 Timothy 1:3  I thank God, whom I serve with a pure conscience, as my forefathers did, as without ceasing I remember you in my prayers night and day,
    Titus 1:1  Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God‘s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
    Philemon 1:3  Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    James 1:1  James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
    2 Peter 1:1  Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
    2 Peter 1:2  Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
    2 John 1:3  Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
    Jude 1:1  Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:

    WHAT I DON’T BELIEVE:
    I don’t believe in – God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit and that they are all one God.  To me this is a three headed god.  Nowhere in scripture is Jesus refered to as ‘God the Son’ nor is the Holy Spirit referred to as ‘God the Holy Spirit’ (please refer to Holy Spirit – above).
    So, your question was – DO I BELIEVE THAT THE FATHER IS GOD BUT THE SON IS NOT.  –  Yes, I believe that.
    *********
    The house analogy was rather crude but was an effective way to show that something can be created through someone  without them actually building it.  I don’t believe that Jesus will be the future owner as the house analogy leans towards, I believe he will rule as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.  God created this world through his son, for his son.  Jesus will be the ruler but God will rule over all. **** I suppose another analogy would be to say that God is a king and Jesus a prince.  Say a king allows his son to rule over some of his provinces, the prince would rule but the king is still the king. ***** Another analogy – A father loves he son with every fibre of his being, he is the perfect son who always does the will of his father and loves his father as much as his father loves him.  The father wants to give him something so he builds him a billycart.  The father created the billy cart because of the son, so he created it through him.  If he had never had a son he may never have built the billycart. So, it is through the love he has for the son that he built it – therefore he built the billycart through his son. — Now lets change the names. —- God the Father loves his son with every fibre of his being, he is the perfect son who always does the will of God his Father and loves his Father as much as God the Father loves him. God the Father wants to give him something, so he creates the world as we know it.  God the Father created the world because of the son, so he created it through the son.  If he had never begotton a son he may never have created the world. So, it is through the love he has for his son that he created the world.        He created the world through him and for him..
    Timothy 6:13  I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate,
    Hebrews 3:4  For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
    I believe that everything was created through Jesus but what you call everything can be a bit hard to determine.  
    Colossians 1:16-19
    “ For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are upon earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
    17  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
    18  And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the first-born from the dead; that in all things he may have the pre-eminence.
    19  For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell;
    Now lets look a bit more closely.  “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven,…”  Some translations have ‘in the heavens’.  What do you define heaven as?
    Strong’s – 3772 ouranov ouranos oo-ran-os’
    perhaps from the same as 3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; TDNT-5:497,736; n m
    AV-heaven 268, air 10, sky 5, heavenly + 1537; 284
    1) the vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in it
    1a) the universe, the world
    1b) the aerial heavens or sky, the region where the clouds and the tempests gather, and where thunder and lightning are produced
    1c) the sidereal or starry heavens
    2) the region above the sidereal heavens, the seat of order of things eternal and consummately perfect where God dwells and other heavenly beings
    If by heaven and earth the bible is meaning everything ever created (angels and cherubim etc.) then I will agree.  But could it be that we are referring more to the world as we know it – the earth and the heavens (universe, stars and planets, etc).  If this is the case it lends itself to something else I have thoughts on, but maybe to elaborate now is not the time.
    It is important to also note the meaning of ‘all things’
    Strong’s  –   3956 pav pas pas
    including all the forms of declension; TDNT-5:886,795; adj
    AV-all 748, all things 170, every 117, all men 41, whosoever 31, everyone 28, whole 12, all manner of 11, every man 11, no + 3756 9, every thing 7, any 7, whatsoever 6, whosoever + 3739 + 302 3, always + 1223 3, daily + 2250 2, any thing 2, no + 3361 2, not tr 7, misc 26; 1243
    1) individually
    1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
    2) collectively
    2a) some of all types
    ++++
    …” the whole world has gone after him” Did all the world go after Christ?  “then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan.” Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? “Ye are of God, little children”, and the whole world lieth in the wicked one”. Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words “world” and “all” are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the “all” means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts —some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile … (C.H. Spurgeon from a sermon on Particular Redemption)
    Verse 17 says, ‘He is before all things’.  As you can see above, ALL THINGS does not necessarily mean ALL. So, through Jesus ALL THINGS were created and he was before ALL THINGS.  That being the case, were ALL things created through Jesus, and was Jesus before the angels etc, or is it that he was only before the creation of the world/universe.  This is a hard one and difficult to make a decision, but because I have other thoughts on this matter I could lean towards him being born after the angels. Which would mean that God created Angels etc, then he begot Jesus, then through Jesus he created the world for him.
    Hebrews 1:6  And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
    If the above scripture is referring to the time Jesus was born and the Angels worshipped him – the Angels were already created.
    DO YOU BELIEVE THAT EVERY PART OF CREATION WAS CREATED “THROUGH” THE SON?   The world as we know it (earth, sky,
    universe, seas etc) definitely YES.  The Angels and Cherubim etc, I can not be sure at this stage (more study needed before I would give a definite decision).
    There you go, questions answered.  
    God Bless,  

    #15381
     t8 
    Participant
    • Topics started 875
    • Total replies 17,536

    Hi,

    I know I haven’t posted for a long time, but that doesn’t mean that I have given up. On the contrary this subject is extremely important and because of this importance, I will write when the the time is right. At the moment I am extremely busy and writing now may cause me to make mistakes.

    Anyway for now I just want to point out one verse for us to consider. It clearly points out that God and Jesus are different. It also reinforces Ramblinrose’s point that God is the supreme authority and God has given Jesus rulership, it even states that Jesus is not God, (not the Father). I believe that God became a Father when he begat a Son. I think that this is a clear teaching repeated in many scriptures.

    1 Corinthians 15:27
    For he "has put everything under his feet."
    Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.  

    Also to Ramblinrose: You say that you are researching if Jesus was begotten before or after the Angels. First of all I want to commend you on your honest search for truth in the face (onslaught) of religious tradition. Your faith is rare indeed. I encourage you to keep up this search because many have departed the truth and we need this Apostolic type of ministry. I have never really thought about this, but I hold to the opinion that Christ came first before all things created. I can’t check it out becuase I do not have a Concordance and other tools, but I think that the word creation can mean cosmos?? and it says somewhere that all things that were made, were made thorugh Christ, and I think that Angels were made. Also Jesus is called the The Morning Star in Revelation and Lucifer was called son of the morning! in Isaiah 14:12 KJV. This opinion is dependant on Lucifer and Satan being the same person. (before and after).
    Anyway like I say, I haven’t really looked into this, but with my limited understanding here I have given you my opinion. Perhaps if you want to talk about this more you can start another thread.

    I notice you are from AUS. I am from NZ just across the ditch.

    #15577
     Ramblinrose 
    Member
    • Topics started 0
    • Total replies 282

    To Ambassador of Christ

    You quoted John 1.18
    John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.

    I have checked a number of different bible versions and not one out of seven is quoted as above, they all quote as below.

    18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

    Just thought I’d let you know.

    God Bless

    #15558
     Ramblinrose 
    Member
    • Topics started 0
    • Total replies 282

    To t8

    Thank you for your comment. It is a very lonely path but once you are on it and see God for who he really is, and the great sacrifice of Jesus his Son, you just can’t depart.

    If you look at sites which hold information about the Trinity you will see that this is the most read subject of all. I feel that people have read their bibles and don’t see a trinity, yet are told they have to believe it. These people go searching for answers as they seek the truth, whether they seek and find the trinity and then believe it fully or come to believe as t8 and myself, is a path only each individual can travel. I know some people who have just accepted what they have been told, they say ‘You shouldn’t question, it’s something you believe by faith’, or ‘ my church says that I should believe it, so I do’ (If a blind man leads a blind man, they will both fall into a ditch) Unfortunately many of these people have never opened their bible to seek God. God gave his word to us so we could all see the light, those who seek will find.

    t8 quoted the following:
    1 Corinthians 15:27
    For he "has put everything under his feet."
    Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

    This is just one of so many versus that show God and Jesus as two persons. Why are these overlooked by Trinitarians.

    Another thing I find interesting is that a lot of Trinitarians and others, do no believe that the world was created in six literal days or that there was a world wide flood (Genesis). I know this is another subject but I just want to say this. How can anyone argue any belief if you don’t believe in the absolute grass roots. I just wish to state that I believe that the world was created in six literal days and that God rested on the seventh. I believe that there was a world wide flood and that only Noah and his family survived. I know this because God has revealed it to us through the bible. What a wonderful, amazing and loving God we have.

    To close, a little something I read, that you may also like:

    When at night you wake and cannot sleep,
    Talk to the Shepard, don’t count sheep.

    God Bless

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