The Trinity Doctrine is an unnecessary stumbling block

This topic contains 907 replies, has 17 voices, and was last updated by  Jael 2 months, 2 weeks ago.

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  • #822226
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Gene,

    Yes.

    Jn 17.18

    As Thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

    #822338
     t8 
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    Jesus was born the messiah, the Lord, and the King of the Jews. This is part of what I teach because it is written. Shoot the messenger if you want, but the truth changes not. Jesus also came in the flesh. He is not the flesh itself, rather he came in the flesh so he could be like us in order for us to be like him later on. He had glory with God before the cosmos. I know this drives some men crazy, but the truth does that sometimes. It is up to men to change, not the truth. Amen.

    #822358
     NickHassan 
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    Hi T8,

    Indeed the Word was made flesh.

    In Jesus of Nazareth.

    #822372
     Jael 
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    t8, Nick:

    • ‘[Jesus] had glory with the Father before the world was’

    This is interesting in that the verse DOES NOT claim that [Jesus] had glory WHEN the world was… only BEFORE. Yet another scripture claim [Jesus] CREATED the world and all things within… and then another STATES that it was the FATHER who created everything ‘through’ the Son. Well, if [Jesus] only had glory BEFORE the world was, the question is then: ‘What GLORY did he have AS THE WORLD WAS MADE – more glory, but likely, following the logic, LESS OR NONE’? Quite a flaw in trinity ideology, eh?

    I won’t touch on how, if Jesus is God, he could ‘lose his glory’. If it were even possible that God could lose his glory then ‘God would not be God’… period!

    • The Word made flesh

    God gave HIS WORD to mankind that he would provide a SAVIOUR who would turn mankind back to himself. He sent many prophets with his word to remind his wayward people of this promise: ‘I will send my servant who will indeed turn my people back to me!’ (Isaiah 42:1-2, paraphrased)

    In the fullness of time by God’s judgement, God ACTED ON HIS PROMISE : his WORD WAS MADE FLESH : He SENT HIS SERVANT, as promised!

    A Man has fallen from a roof but is hanging from the guttering. A wealthy passerby sees him and promises to send his servant to get him down. In time, a short time, the Servant arrives with a ladder and saves the man. The wealthy passerby’s WORD WAS MADE FLESH: He SENT HIS SERVANT, that servant was the saviour of the man (Notwithstanding that the wealthy person was also saviour for sending the Servant!!)

    #822373
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Jael,

    We know from Ps 104.30 that it is God Who ctreates through His Spirit.

    It is the Spirit in the anointed Jesus that inspired his words and did the works.

    All references to Jesus Christ are references to the eternal Spirit at work in this man.

    Flesh contributes nothing.

    #822376
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Jael, good to hear you brother, yes i believe The word of God which is God came to be “in” THE MAN Jesus, i do not believe the word actually became flesh, because God who is “spirit” was “in” the “man” Jesus . While spirits can live in “flesh” they can never be flesh. Jesus was indeed the servant and son of the Living God, who God the Father gave for the salvation of those who believe in him.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene

    #822379
     NickHassan 
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    Hi,

    2 Cor 5.16f

    Therefore, from now on, we recognise no one according to the flesh, even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet we know him in this way no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ , he is a new creature, the old things passed away; Behold new things have come.

    2 Cor 3.14

    But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted  because it is removed in Christ.but to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty. But we all , with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord,  are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

    The new creation is according to the Spirit.

    An ongoing transformation in those who walk in the Spirit.

    Those who focus on the flesh and glorify it have really missed the point.

    #822380
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Jael,

    Yes before the creation of the world was before the creation of the dust of earth from which flesh was created.

    Jesus called himself a son of man, and that is so as he was born of a woman.

    Yet some think a man was in heaven prior to his birth?

    #822381
     NickHassan 
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    Hi,

    Acts 8.35f

    Then Philip opened his mouth and, beginning from this scripture, he preached Jesus to him. As they went along the road they came to some water, and the Eunuch said

    ”Look! Water. What prevents me from being baptised??

    And Philip said

    ”If you believe with all your heart, you may”

    And he answered and said

    ”I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God”

    And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the Eunuch, and he baptised him.

     

    So a man who believed in God and in the scriptures just has to believe Jesus Christ to be the son of God to be baptised in his name into Christ.

    But trinity preaches that Jesus is God- a false foundation.

    #822533
     t8 
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    Hi T8,

    Indeed the Word was made flesh.

    Indeed, Jesus came in the flesh and the Word was made flesh.

    Both are true. But did God create all things through two things so to speak?

    #822534
     t8 
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    This is interesting in that the verse DOES NOT claim that [Jesus] had glory WHEN the world was… only BEFORE. Yet another scripture claim [Jesus] CREATED the world and all things within… and then another STATES that it was the FATHER who created everything ‘through’ the Son. Well, if [Jesus] only had glory BEFORE the world was, the question is then: ‘What GLORY did he have AS THE WORLD WAS MADE – more glory, but likely, following the logic, LESS OR NONE’? Quite a flaw in trinity ideology, eh?

    @jael

    Yes, the Trinity is a flawed doctrine for sure. The Father created all things through his son. God created all things through the Word. Nothing was created without him. Glory to God through Jesus Christ now and forever and including all the past. You agree right?

    #822535
     t8 
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    Yet some think a man was in heaven prior to his birth?

    Strange isn’t it Nick. I wonder why people might think that he had glory with God even before the Cosmos.

    Colossians 1:17
    He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    John 1:3
    Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    Hebrews 1:1-2
    1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
    2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

    Nick, maybe you could write a Bible and delete these scriptures and many others. Then we will have a true Bible right?

    #822541
     Jael 
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    t8, I agree only that the Father created all things.

    Jesus was not existent in heaven when the world was created so it cannot be that God Created all things THROUGH Jesus.

    In fact, rendering the text as ‘God Created through Jesus’, is complete nonsense if Jesus IS GOD!

    Saying, ‘The Father Created all things through the son’ Is also nonsense since ALL THREE ‘gods’ Are EQUAL. Here, the Son is SUBORDINATED and receives power from the father. This cannot be if Jesus IS GOD.

    Tje REAL PROBLEM is that the trinity was not designed to be scrutinise. It was just designed to be believed BY THREAT of eternal condemnation and death (as it says in the Athanasian creed – which is LATER modified creed from the origins al as HUGE discrepancies were found in the now virtually defunct Apostles Creed!)

    #822542
     Jael 
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    t8, all the things you wrote to Nick concerning the ‘Man’ in heaven before the world was, INCLUDE FAKED text.

    It is clear that these have been ADDED as they do not follow the theme of the verse.

    The trinity translators added in verses to include Jesus where it might declare Father as the sole doer. The things written were done after Jesus rose from the dead and was taken up to heaven but trinity obeyers will see, ‘Jesus in Glory’ as being so ALWAYS BEFORE and forever by ignoring the PRESENT CONTEXT of the verses.

    If Jesus is God, Why was he given glory and REWARDED with the spiritually ‘earthly’ throne of king David… is GOD not KING OF THE GREATER HEAVEN – why would becoming ‘King of Earth’ be a REWARD for dying when he already was KING OF HEAVEN AND EARTH?

    Trinitarians have become adept at responding with ridiculous answers when the truth is put to them… therefore the truth means nothing to them. Any silly answer is an answer so as long they reply to a question that makes their belief credible in their and their brightens eyes. It also allows them to go away and devise responses that modify their defences in favour of trinity support. Nowadays, Phil 2 is not ‘Jesus emptied himself’ as the verse SAYS, but ‘Jesus dis-availed himself of glory to be God. He stopped using his power as God and humbled himself’ which the verse DOESNT SAY. They say this because they realise that he they can use the verse where Jesus askes the Father to give him [….] the glory… they add ‘BACK’ to make it seem he HAD IT but lost it… er, dis-availed himself of it!

    #822548
     NickHassan 
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    Hi T8,

    You believe a man was in heaven prior to his birth?

    If so this man was not a man as we know them.

     

    He was conceived in Mary on the earth.

    So if he was a man before that he had no mother.

    He had no flesh and no inheritance from Adam or David.

     

    You confuse flesh with Spirit.

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