The Trinity Doctrine is an unnecessary stumbling block

This topic contains 749 replies, has 17 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of t8 t8 2 months, 2 weeks ago.

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  • #819092
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
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    LU, t8, ‘There is ONE GOD, the Father…’

    Nothing more.

    Correct. People change this by adding their own doctrines which are conjured up by pride in their own understanding. Jesus taught that we have to be like children to enter the kingdom. Adults have a problem with this. They just can’t leave alone the fact that there is one God. It is too simple. They need to complicate it with metaphysics and philosophy. When they are done with their work, they have a certain pride that comes with it and defend it at all costs. A child on the other hand accepts Jesus teachings as they are. They are simple to understand so why mess with them. Since the time of Nimrod, men have created gods for themselves. It comes from their own spirit and pride and the curse that comes is they are divided by language or doctrine. Denominations testify to this continuing creation of gods by hand or in the mind. They are divisions because men want to make a name for themselves, so God divides them to nullify their power.

    But there are also people that do not dare do such a thing. God and truth is something they seek to know and learn. God is generous in revealing himself to such people because they are like children. Innocent of evil, and zealous for truth. Such people God can work with. They are teachable and they can hear his voice.

    #819093
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
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    As You see, her ideology is a confused one. To her, the deity she CLAIMS to believe in is both a PERSON and an a NON-PERSON THING.

    Agreed. I have been saying for years that most who believe in the Trinity or Binity, and Quinity (yes someone actually preached five as God) confuse identity with nature.

    While God has divine nature and we can share in that, the one whom the nature originates is the only God. He is he, not they. The son participates and has his origins in God. He is not that God, but an image of that God. An image is not the source. This is simple to understand. But men don’t like simplicity, they prefer to wander off into metaphysics and philosophy. They prefer a more intellectual stance that gives them expert credibility, is more efficient for puffing up pride, and good for the name among men that they can inherit. But children of God are almost ignored, yet have the truth in their heart. They have little problems understanding these simple but fundamental truths.

    Such suppose that God is the nature or substance and that multiple beings made of this come from this divine substance. Whereas God is first an identity not nature and nature comes from this God as does his characteristics. God is a person (he/him), although person is not really the correct word either as it breaks down to ‘one son’. He is the Father, a living being. Not a nature or attributes as some who preach a metaphysical God seem to think.

    Perhaps it is fair to say that those who think God is a substance first must not actually know this God. If I said my friend was flesh and I knew them well, then what about the person? Would I really know my friend if they were merely their nature to me?

    #819094
    Profile photo of Jael Jael 
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    t8, I virtually agree with what you just said. And there is so much more that time does not permit me to impress on you and others here.

    We have established that the deity we as suggested true Christians believe in as our God is a singular entity of spirit. Scriptures tells us: ‘God is Spirit’ and we are held to believe so according to the teachings of the scriptures.

    Now we face the question of ‘The Son’.

    You left the door open to LU where you say, ‘The son is from God’. LU can take that to mean ‘born from God and is therefore himself god’ as she wrongfully ideologieses.

    The child conceived by the Holy Spirit in the body of the Virgin Mary and given the name, ‘Jesus’ was the PROPHESIED ‘Servant’ spoken of in the Old Testament.

    A God is not a servant (in reverential terms… It can be argued that ‘The Greater actually always serves the lesser in terms of needs but in terms of scriptures we should always think Spiritual)

    There is a grave error made by nearly all debators, discussor, theologians, philosophers, scholars, etc concerning the term ‘Son’. This has led the masses to devise an ideology that Jesus is a ‘pro-created Son of God’ (“God from God”… Words found nowhere in scriptures but from manmade Catholic doctrine).

    The term ‘Son’ in spiritual terms (NOT HUMAN TERMS!!!) means, ‘One who does the works of his Father, his creator’. Hence, the Angels are ‘Sons of God’, Adam, before he fell from grace, was ‘Son of God’. It seems that No one likes citing Luke 3:38… Fear of seeing the truth and unfounded dread of the parallel ‘sinless and holy man, Adam’ with Jesus as ‘second/Last Adam’ causes this unadmittable failure of understanding.

    But scriptures tells us clearly that ‘Everyone who is led by the Holy Spirit of God is a child of God’…

    Jesus…is THE ONLY ONE who can be said to be in that position. Although the Angels in heaven, the divine Angels, are ‘sons of God’, they are constrained to do God’s work without FREEDOM therefore any misbehaviour is not non-forgiveable: Their creation was NOT in the full image of God. However, mankind, Aka, Adam, was created in the full image of God. And like a true Father, God is willing to forgive a Son of his image…but you notice that the forgiveness comes with a price tag!!!

    Scriptures tells us that Jesus was not BORN ‘Son of God’ but had to PROVE HIMSELF (‘Shall be (future) called Son of God’). He was indeed Sinless and Holy but did not START his works until AFTER he was baptised, filled with the Holy Spirit, and tested in the wilderness. Here now is a true Son of God.

    Jesus staked his claim to this title when the Jews accused him of saying he was ‘God’. Jesus stated EMPHATICALLY that he did not say so: ‘I said only that I was the son of God’.

    Yet, despite this, the majority of theologians STILL defy the truth of Jesus’ words and say, ‘Jesus is God’.

    When questioned about the irrespinsible logic, they confusingly explain that: ‘Jesus is Son of God and therefore IS GOD. God is his Father which makes him God, too. He is made of the substance and nature of God which makes him God…!’

    I guess that is how science tries to say humanly that mankind is an evolution of the Apes. I guess too that everyone has to try to justify their own belief.

    And as for Jesus creating the world and every thing in it. I cannot get direct answers from anyone, trinitarian, JW, JiG, or whomever.

    The point is that scriptures says that ‘God created the world’ and ‘The Father is the creator’ (Which is CORRECT: ‘Father’ means ‘He who CREATES’) Yet Jesus is NOT CALLED ‘Father’. So they say, ‘oh, no, GOD CREATED THROUGH JESUS’…

    Well, which is it, did Jesus create or was it ‘through him’ making him NOT THE CREATOR?

    I think there is hard evidence of Scripture tampering going on around this topic – tampering so hurriedly done that it has no consistent justification elsewhere in scriptures….

    And why, if Jesus is God, is he to rule over the lesser kingdom of earth (creation) if, as GOD, he ALREADY rules over both HEAVEN and earth?

    In fact, we NEVER read of Jesus ruling over heaven and earth (not including his TEMPORARY rule in the millenium period : Joseph in Egypt was not PHAROAH even though he was ruling IN PLACE of PHAROAH TEMPORARILY!)

    #819095
    Profile photo of miia miia 
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    In fact, we NEVER read of Jesus ruling over heaven and earth (not including his TEMPORARY rule in the millenium period)

    We never read of Jesus ruling over both heaven and earth?

    Matt 28.18
    Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”

    Temporary millenium reign?

    Luke 1:33
    and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever. His kingdom will never end.”

    #819096
    Profile photo of Jael Jael 
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    Miia, you are doing what many many many of those naive in scriptures do.

    Jesus’ millenium reign is strictly temporary (as I pointed out). You cannot say you do not read that he ‘Hands BACK’ the kingdom to the one who gave it to him – WHEN his task is done. Did Joseph not ‘Hsnd back’ the rulership of Egypt to the PHAROAH?

    Jesus’ rulership that will last for eternity is AFTER HE JUDGES THE WORLD and gives those in belief to an eternal life with him. This is when he adopts the title ‘Eternal Father’ because he will give those believers ‘Eternal Life’ (Remember the definition of ‘Father’ and therefore ‘Eternal Father’).

    Miia, please try to get your timeline right if you want to debate or discuss in a cohesive and consistent manner.

    #819097
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
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    You left the door open to LU where you say, ‘The son is from God’. LU can take that to mean ‘born from God and is therefore himself god’ as she wrongfully ideologieses.

    I find that you need to write an essay to close all doors. I have learned over the years to open doors when they need to be opened and close them when when they need to be closed. One precept at a time, that way you can be thorough and build precept upon precept. I have in the past tried to do it all in one post, but I find that people generally do not have the patience to read long posts. I prefer to keep that style of writing as a main writing or opening post in a topic rather than a comment or reply post. That said, as far as Jesus coming from God, he said this as recorded in John 8:42 (English NIV).

    “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.”

    I guess if he could boldly state as much, then we should too. And I am sure that the Pharisees could have taken all kind of meaning from his words, but Jesus spoke words that not all could hear. That will happen and it is the way it is.

    Blessings.

     

    #819099
    Profile photo of Jael Jael 
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    t8, I know you are right about the verse. What I commented on is that LU could use that (if unexplained) for her own excuse ideology that Jesus ‘CAME (as in Was Born) from God’. But I agree since you explained that it is her problem if she misinterprets (or rather, HIJACKS) Jesus’ own words and their meaning, just as the trinitarians misinterpret ‘Before Abraham was, I Am’.

    #819106
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
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    Yes. A person has to want truth before it can be revealed to them.

    #819119
    Profile photo of Jael Jael 
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    Yes. t8, like how Pentecostals adopt the symbol of a dove to represent the Holy Spirit – DESPITE their belief in trinity that the Holy Spirit is a PERSON!!!

    Moreover, the stranger fact that THERE WAS NO ‘DO E’ observed at the Pentecost event.

    #819129
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
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    I do not view the Holy Spirit as a dove in form (like you I assume). To me, the Spirit descended like a dove (in graceful fashion upon Jesus).

    #819138
    Profile photo of Jael Jael 
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    t8, if there was any suggestion that I implied you thought that then I apologise. I believe what you believe in that the Holy Spirit descended on Jesus ‘in the manner’ of a dove. I have said so many many times.

    ‘In the manner of a dove’ is to mean that the spirit was gentle, light, a pleasant breeze, sanctifying, adoringly, with delicate reverence.

    I made this point prominent in my argument concerning why Pentecostals claim a dove as their symbol of the Holy Spirit – even though they claim the Holy Spirit is a person.

    More importantly that there was no ‘dove’ at the Pentecostal event. in fact, the Holy Spirit came in the manner of ‘tongues of fire and wind’. Why did they not adopt this view of their ‘third God’ if they were to claim the name ‘Pentecost’ and ‘Pentecostals’?

    Then, God is immutable, does not ring true in that the Holy Spirit, for them and all trinitarians, changed to another form… breaking the absolute singularity of the being of God.

    You will no dought have noticed the miriad omission of the Holy Spirit in Jesus’ mindful unity with the Father. … No mention of same (or any) unity with the Holy Spirit.

    Of course, we must not leave this claim hanging as many will easily deride it: The Holy Spirit IS ‘The Spirit of the Father; the Spirit of the one God: YHWH’ and thus unity with God and Father is, ipso facto, unity with the Spirit of the Father; the spirit of YHWH God. The father’s spirit is united in mindfulness with Jesus christ’s own spirit so Christ Jesus can say, ‘Not my will but yours [Father]’. Jesus, knowing the pain and suffering – and DEATH – that was his in waiting momentarily desired ‘another way’ to reach the goal that was on offer to him: the rulership over creation. The willing subjection of his own will to god’s is a sign of honoured reverence to a greater mind.

    A side comment – and one willingly dismissed by ALL TRINITARIANS and major scholars and theologians, is: ‘Why was Satan the steward of the created world’ such that he could ‘Give it to whomever he will’?

    Responses, and NO RESPONSES, clearly show that this question is FEARED among those who wish to follow ‘another christ’ and deny the testament that Jesus brought from God the Father.

    The true answer is that the Angels are the keepers and stewards by rank and file over the created world which is why Scriptures states that ‘The world to come will by no means be governed by Angels’. In fact, the new world to come will be ruled over by Jesus Christ, and governed by ‘Kings and Priest’ of Christ, as revelation states, one hundred and forty four from every tongue and nation’.

    #819141
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
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    t8, if there was any suggestion that I implied you thought that then I apologise. I believe what you believe in that the Holy Spirit descended on Jesus ‘in the manner’ of a dove. I have said so many many times.

    Ha, sorry I just realized that the way I worded the following could be misconstrued and was. I said:

    I do not view the Holy Spirit as a dove in form (like you I assume).

    What I meant was (as I think you believe also). Now read the above quote again and my intention becomes clearer. But yes, it certainly looked like I was saying the opposite of what I was trying to say.

    Apologies.

    #819142
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
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    Actually I think my original wording was correct, just not clear. I said:

    I do not view the Holy Spirit as a dove in form (like you I assume).

    But if I said the following instead, then it would have meant we had differing opinions.

    I do not view the Holy Spirit as a dove in form (UNLIKE you I assume).

    I assume ‘like’ and ‘unlike’ are opposites.

    Regardless, I think we are both on the same page. The Holy Spirit is not a dove. A dove is a created thing and God’s form is not like any created thing. Descending like a dove it what the verse says. Keyword is ‘descending’.

    #819146
    Profile photo of Jael Jael 
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    t8, I cannot believe that in these enlightened days we are discussing disputes concerning the holy spirit ‘as a dove’ vs ‘in the manner of a dove’.

    As I see it, even the protagonists of ‘as a dove’ are only retaining the false concept because they need to do it so they can continue to be a church leader. If they confessed the belief was false they would be thrown out. If they taught  the truth they would lose most of their congregation… and the MONEY they rake in from the false ideology…

    Being a church leader is a VERY LUCRATIVE BUSINESS POSITION.

    Business… I’ve heard that a Pentecostal church has to return a given amount of takings to the higher Business organisation each period. There were severe consequences if they did not. The result of this was that pressure was put on the leaders to force by public embarrassment low or none congregational donators into coughing up more.

    I was a visitor at this church so was not in that category and I noticed the little bags with people’s names on by which their contributions are monitored. Of course some churches impose fixed amounts of personal earnings (Mormons!) and it’s amazing who some of the contributors are…. Those churches are ‘Money Rich’ but ‘Spirit Poor’ but are more attractive despite their delusional ideology than any church that speaks the truth.

    It seems that (we KNOW that) fantasy is more impressive than reality to the many.

    #819150
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
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    It’s sad alright. Jesus taught to give to the poor and in most cases these churches are richer than the people they are getting the money from. The exact opposite of what Jesus taught. I have seen many churches compelling people to dig deep and give to them. Shame on them. Jesus Church is not reliant on money, but many of these churches would crumble without it.

    Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

    i.e., we decide how much we give , when we give, and who we give it to. Some of these churches have sheep in wolves clothing. They care little about the sheep accep that which they can extort from them each week.

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