June 17, 2015 at 9:26 am #799717t8Participant
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In scripture we never read about people preaching the Trinity or insisting that people believe it in order to have true faith in God.
Over the centuries many Christians have diverged and insisted that people believe in the Trinity as the foundation of true faith in God. While this belief indeed is the Roman Catholic Faith, Christians should never make this doctrine a requirement as it only proves to alienate people from the way.
In scripture we are told that stumbling blocks are inevitable, but woe to the them that lay them. Think about it, if you insist on this doctrine and it keeps a person from receiving the son of God, then you have contributed to blocking the way of salvation to that person.
We should be wise and stick to teaching what is written. God sent his son into the world to save men. He died for our sins, rose from the dead, and is seated at the right-hand of God and interceding for us. This is written.
Keep it simple. Simplicity in Christ. He is the son of the living God, the messiah, and the one whom God made Lord.June 17, 2015 at 10:12 am #799722
good point!June 18, 2015 at 6:35 am #799773
It’s not found as a doctrine preached in Scripture simply because it wasn’t until after the Apostles that the Church had to stand against the many heresies (including Arianism) that rose up against the true faith, and would attempt to deny the true identity and Deity of Jesus Christ..
The Trinity is only a stumbling block if you choose to rely on the natural mind instead of the Spirit for understanding (notice how those who naturally oppose the Trinity, like Jews and Muslims, have no problem with it when they’re born again) – but rather it is these heretical teachings which deny the complete unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (notice: you cannot have One without the others), that is the REAL stumbling block…and cause of confusion.June 18, 2015 at 6:49 am #799774
“Arius started with the rationalistic presupposition that all doctrine must be completely reasonable to the human mind, or it wasn’t Biblical. He, like so many others in our day, seem to have forgotten the word spoken by the LORD God in Isaiah 55:8 – ‘For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are My ways your ways.’ When human reason becomes the criteria for establishing Biblical doctrine, limitations are inevitably placed on God, Who is infinite, and His Word.”June 18, 2015 at 7:01 am #799776
So it was invented to oppose heresies.
Yet it is the greatest heresy seen on earth.June 18, 2015 at 7:03 am #799777
So your trinity idea does not place limitations on God?
It redefines God as a team.June 18, 2015 at 7:05 am #799779
Your odd idea about God denies that Jesus Christ is the Son of God
It divides God from His own Spirit.
It opposes scripture.
It prevents us from having fellowship with the Father and the Son.June 18, 2015 at 8:57 am #799795
You are the author of your own confusion – and then you try to project it onto us..
This is the way of false teachers.June 18, 2015 at 9:37 am #799796
A Spiritual man sees Isaiah 55:8 as meaning God thinks according to the Spirit while man thinks according to the flesh; so put away the thoughts of man and embrace a mind like Christ.
About reason God said:
Isaiah 1:18Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord:
though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow;
though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
How can we reason about what we do not understand? If do not accept his invitation to reason with him then how can we be sanctified?June 18, 2015 at 11:34 am #799806
The importance of the verse is to know about the level of forgiveness from God available in Christ.
Reason is just a route to this simple understanding.June 18, 2015 at 12:44 pm #799808marioParticipant
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I can certainly understand your view points, but don’t forget that the doctrine that Christ is not God is a very old heresy which crept into the Church in the 4th century by Arius. This was such a controversial issue that the Ancient Church held a meeting to discuss it. Don’t forget that at the time this type of doctrine was unheard of. The Ancient Church at this meeting decided to continue with the original doctrine that Christ is the Son of God as well as God in the flesh.
I also therefore believe, and you are all right to say that Jesus is absolutely the Son of God, but I also believe He is God in the flesh.
This is what scripture teaches: Christ is called the Son of God, He is also called Lord which translates Yahweh.
Do you also remember when Thomas saw Jesus after the resurrection, when he saw Christ’s wounds: “My Lord and my God” is what Thomas exclaimed. In Greek this translates like so: “you are my Lord and my God”. It is difficult to mis-translate the Greek texts, they don’t leave much room for deviating from the Truth.
If this confession and exclamation from Thomas was wrong, would not have Christ and the rest of the apostles present have corrected Him?
Look at the scriptural evidence
Actually, forgive me, I’ve started my reply rather late. I will come back with some scripture, and I will try to give as accurate a translation from the Greek as possible. It is a shame that meanings can be lost in translation from the original text.
Good night all and God bless
MarioJune 18, 2015 at 1:27 pm #799812
If polytheism is of the bible please show us.
We serve the Lord God of Israel.
About the confession of Thomas
“.. namely that GOD WAS IN CHRIST reconciling the world to Himself”
Then see the path of Thomas
Jn 14 ,5
THOMAS said to him
“Lord we do not know where you are going, how do we know the way?
Jesus said to him
“I am the way, and the truth, and the life; No one comes to the Father but through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also;
from now on you know Him, and have seen Him”
Philip said to him.
“Lord show us the Father, and it is enough for us”
Jesus said to him
‘Have I been so long with you , and yet you have not come to know me Philip?
HE WHO HAS SEEN ME HAS SEEN THE FATHER”
When Thomas saw Jesus he now knew that he also saw the Father in him.
A good studentJune 18, 2015 at 1:30 pm #799815t8Participant
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Many go around saying that the Trinity is the foundation of the true faith, the central message about who Jesus is, and the true explanation of the one true God.
However, is it not fair that we ask for proof. There is nowhere in scripture that the Trinity was explicitly taught, it was never part of the gospel, and it was not even debated. The silence over the Trinity in scripture is deafening.
Instead what we read in scripture is the Father as the one true God, and Jesus is the son of that one true God. We see this time and time again so we are without excuse.
The truth is that the Trinity was never part of scripture and developed over the following centuries. By the time Aruis turned up, the Trinity Doctrine had developed to some degree and it came to a head and was debated. While the emperor needed to settle this squabble to keep a tight rule over the people, he had to favour one side of the argument, and Athanasius was the winner. Later however, there was an about turn and Aruis came into favour and when he was to receive his reward as one being persecuted, he was mysteriously killed and said to be poisoned before his official recognition. Athanasius was banished to Triers in 336 AD.
Here is the thing. Most think that the Trinity was the doctrine of the Bible and Arius was a heretic that rose up, and the Trinity Doctrine was enforced to keep this and other heresies at bay. To those that believe this, you are a victim of history, but it is your own doing because you love not the truth to check this out. Not many actually see the possibility that both Athanasius and Arius were wrong, or that Arius was even right. No, they favour history where Athanasius was the winner and because that is the main basis for believing in the Trinity, their trust is in man and not God. They then use scripture to not determine truth but to twist it in such a way to backup that which they have been taught or brainwashed with.
Is that how truth is determined by those who seek truth with all their heart? How many actually believe scripture instead of tradition? Not many it seems.
Jesus put is as clear as you can say it and yet they continue to cling to the Trinity even knowing it opposes these following words of eternal life. They are a witness against all who hear them then ignore them.
Jesus said in John 17:3:
“This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
I believe Jesus words here and yet those who espouse the Trinity clearly have to oppose these words of eternal life. I regularly get persecuted for saying that the Father is the one true God and Jesus is the one who this God sent. But remember this, if you persecute, challenge, or disbelieve when I say this, then you are not against me, but against the one who spoke them, even Christ Jesus. Jesus said that his sheep hear his voice, so why do you ignore his words?
The Father is the one true God. This is the truth. Jesus is the one whom God made both Lord and Christ. This is also the truth.
For us there is one God the Father and one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ. If this is not your confession, then you are not with Paul but against him. You also oppose Christ, John, and Peter.June 18, 2015 at 1:32 pm #799816
In the OT LORD is substituted for YHWH.
It is not a translation
For US there is ONE GOD and ONE LORD, Jesus Christ.
Are you one of US?June 18, 2015 at 3:08 pm #799828
Jewish Christian groups did not necessary follow the Trinity as early as the First Century. The Ebionites were a group accused of being zealous for the Law and who did not credit Jesus with divinity. There is also the Nazarenes who may have viewed Jesus as divine but little is known either group. They were heavily persecuted under the state Christian religion of the Roman and as far as I know they were not invited to Council of Nicaea as Arias was.
Justian Martyr speaks of the true Christians who Jews by describing them as men who view Law of Moses as something for them observe but not something for the Gentiles to observe. He describes false brothers that Paul spoke against as those that insisted the all most follow the Law of Moses.
The earliest reference to a group that might fit the description of the later Ebionites appears in Justin Martyr’s Dialogue with Trypho (c. 140). Justin distinguishes between Jewish Christians who observe the Law of Moses but do not require its observance upon others, and those who believe the Mosaic Law to be obligatory on all
Some say the Ebonites are traced back to the fall of the Second Temple but the account of the Paul’s trip to Jerusalem reveals that there were diffident instruction for the Gentile Christians that the Jewish ones and Paul sought to prove to his Jewish Christian brothers that he observed the Law.
My source is the Wikipedia entry for Ebonies.
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