The soul

This topic contains 1,221 replies, has 37 voices, and was last updated by  GeneBalthrop 2 months, 2 weeks ago.

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  • #6198
     NickHassan 
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    Good post Rudy,
    However it only reveals the after death state of the Jewish peoples. We do not rely on just the Law and the prophets but the resurrection of Jesus. We do not go to the bosom of Abraham I would have thought.
    Jesus said to Peter.
    “'..and the gates of Hades will not overpower it”
    He said he was going to prepare a place for us so we could be with him where he was. What does this mean? Where is his Father's house?
    Why do you continue to use 'Hell' in your posts as it does not differentiate between 'hades' and 'gehenna' which you have explained?

    #6199
     Rudy 
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    The hope of the resurrection is to rule and reign with Christ, then have a place built for us the righteous (New City Jerusalem), miss this and all you get is the Second Death (resurrection).  Without Christ you have no hope.

    In Christ at death, with Jesus 'till the resurrection of the body.

    I make the same mistake, the word “hell” becomes a catch all.  sorry.  I'm referring to the location of those reserved for judgement.  Gehenna.  Which will eventually be thrown in the Lake of Fire.  Don't ask me to differentiate, all I have is the same scripture in Revelations that you do.

    #6200
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Rudy,
    That is typical of the confusion Rudy. Hades is the one thrown in the lake of fire not gehenna. Gehenna is the lake of fire is it not?

    Do you rely solely on the KJV?

    #6202
     NickHassan 
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    ps. My NASB uses “hell”as well but at least it is consistent in that every reference to “hell” in Matthew, Mark and Luke is to “gehenna”, with one exception, the reference to Tartaroo, or outer darkness, in 2 Peter.

    #6203
     Rudy 
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    I will give more light when I get home, I have alot more info there, also some info on degrees of judgement in the Lake of Fire.

    Will be a couple of hours.

    #6206
     Rudy 
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    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 12 2005,20:51)
    Hi Rudy,
    That is typical of the confusion Rudy. Hades is the one thrown in the lake of fire not gehenna. Gehenna is the lake of fire is it not?


    You are correct!

    Matthew 10:28 – And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    The ONLY place that could be possible is after the resurrection of the dead. Otherwise they would not have a body.

    Luke 16:23 – And in hell (Gr.=hades) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

    So we see that the wait in hades is ablaze as well as the Lake of Fire into which hades is cast.

    Good catch! Thank You!

    Matt. 10: 14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. 15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

    Matthew 26:24 – The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

    These scriptures speak of an implied level of punishment equal to the sins committed of the individual.

    Below I post a link for your study. It is not cannonical nor should it be used for establishment of doctrine.
    I warn everyone to use the Bible for establishing doctrinal truth. Then, extra-biblical source may be used for clarification. I warn you this way due to the amount of spurious information available online. It is my intention to promote the knowledge of Christ and our Heavenly Father to provoke all to Love and good deeds through the Fruit of the Spirit.

    http://reluctant-messenger.com/apocalypse-of-peter.htm

    Download an excellent free interlinear :

    http://www.scripture4all.org/download/download.php

    #6207
     trettep 
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    Quote (Rudy @ April 13 2005,01:29)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 12 2005,20:51)
    Hi Rudy,
    That is typical of the confusion Rudy. Hades is the one thrown in the lake of fire not gehenna. Gehenna is the lake of fire is it not?


    You are correct!

    Matthew 10:28 – And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    The ONLY place that could be possible is after the resurrection of the dead.  Otherwise they would not have a body.

    Luke 16:23 – And in hell (Gr.=hades) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

    So we see that the wait in hades is ablaze as well as the Lake of Fire into which hades is cast.

    Good catch!  Thank You!

    Matt. 10:  14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. 15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

    Matthew 26:24 – The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

    These scriptures speak of an implied level of punishment equal to the sins committed of the individual.

    Below I post a link for your study.  It is not cannonical nor should it be used for establishment of doctrine.
    I warn everyone to use the Bible for establishing doctrinal truth.  Then, extra-biblical source may be used for clarification.  I warn you this way due to the amount of spurious information available online.  It is my intention to promote the knowledge of Christ and our Heavenly Father to provoke all to Love and good deeds through the Fruit of the Spirit.

    http://reluctant-messenger.com/apocalypse-of-peter.htm

    Download an excellent free interlinear :

    http://www.scripture4all.org/download/download.php


    Heres another good tool for yas:

    http://www.e-sword.net

    Told ya I would stop by every once in awhile. 😉

    Paul

    #6208
     Anonymous
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    I guess what I have quoted from genesis and ecclesiates must have a much different interpretation to most people then what I see these passages saying. Both the rich man and Lazurus had bodies from what I read. They could see each other – so they must of had eyes. They were speaking, so they probably had mouths. The rich man wanted Lazurus to dip his finger in water and touch his tongue. Where there are fingers there must be a hand and where there is a hand there must be an arm, shoulder and maybe even a torso. This all sounds like they had bodies. I see no need for the resurrection if they already have bodies. If Ecclesiates 12:7 is correct that the spirit returns to God who gave it, then how can this be a true story and not a parable. Ecclesiates 9:5 says “the living know that they will die but the dead know nothing” Basic truths have to be ignored from the bible in order to believe that death is not a cessation of life. To the righteous it is but a sweet sleep which they will awake from. To the wicked, the grave is a prison which they are held until judgement. A person can not comprehend time when they are under anesthesia and death I think is most likely very close and this is why our lord refers to those who die as falling asleep.

    #6209
     Rudy 
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    Greg,

    Ecclesiastes 12:7 says “the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.”  

    As I understand it, while the spirit is in a person you have free will.  You can do as you wish while in the mortal body.  When the body dies, the soul/spirit of man no longer controls his own destiny, he is in the hands of the Father, to be done with according to His will.

    Philippians 3:10 Paul says “I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.”

    The inferrence of somehow attain is to not be proud but rather in humility before our God.  We certainly obtain salvation and the resurrection according to the provision through Christ.  But to take it for granted and not press on is the warning.

    Phillipians 3:  12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. 16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

    Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried…

    This is NOT a parable.  There is no other message than to warn of the punishment for lack of mercy and lovingkindness which are found in the person who is “Born of the Spirit”.
    These people are dead, and these are the events that take place imediately upon exiting the body.  The rich man's brothers were still alive and he wanted to warn them.

    Remember who is speaking, He is NOT the author of confusion, neither did he lie or tell us this to deceive us.

    Hebrews 10:31 – It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    #6210
     NickHassan 
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    Greg,
    we do not know the abilities of the soul in the nether world do we? We have made assumptions but scripture says the rich man in Lk 16 is dead as Rudy said. We should believe scripture surely?

    #6212
     NickHassan 
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    Hi greg,
    There are some things about us we do not truly understand…yet.
    Were John or Paul taken bodily into heaven?
    If not how did they see things without eyes?

    How did John recognise souls under the altar unless they appear like people's bodies but different. I am sure they were not wearing identity tags.

    How do we see when we have visions?
    How do we see when we dream?

    #6213
     Rudy 
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    Where did Enoch and Elija go when God took them, the price for their sin had yet to be paid.  Were they given glorified bodies, if so how would that be possible without Christ's Blood?
    What form was Moses in at the Mount of Transfiguration (and Elija), this occurred before Christ paid for his sin, yet his form was recognized.  Also if he wasn't in Abraham's Bosom, how did he get out, Christ as I understand it didn't have the keys yet.

    We don't know a great many things, we MUST live by faith.

    #6218
     NickHassan 
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    quite so Rudy.

    #6222
     Anonymous
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    Hi Rudy,

    I believe Enoch and Elijah went to heaven. I believe these two men are examples of those living who will be caught up to be with the Lord at the last trumph. Moses we know is alive right now and he was so at the time of Christ. We also know that he had previously died and was buried. Jude 1:9 says “But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” I personally feel that Moses was resurrected and the devil was not happy about it. As you pointed out, the penalty for sin was not paid yet. Both Moses and the people you previously mentioned who had risen at the time of our Lord's resurrection may be examples of those who will be raised from the dead at the first resurrection. King David has not yet risen. Acts 2:29 says “the patriarch David died and was buried and his tomb is here to this day” and then we are told “For David did not ascend to heaven” Act 2:34 This statement was made after those who had been raised at the time of our Lord's resurrection.

    #6223
     NickHassan 
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    Hey greg,
    You obviously love the Word.
    Moses body was in dispute but not his soul.
    We know Abraham saw the day of the messiah and was glad[Mt 8 56]. We know that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are not truly 'dead' but 'alive'
    As Jesus said his Father was their God, the God of the 'living'[Mt 22 31-2]

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