The Son is Equal to The Father: Trinity Fallacy!

This topic contains 115 replies, has 4 voices, and was last updated by  Lightenup 8 months, 2 weeks ago.

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  • #818895
     Lightenup 
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    @jael

    Why do you write things to me as if I were supporting the three person/one God doctrine?

    #818896
     Jael 
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    LU, your delusion is so deep you do not know what you are writing. It is typical of delusional thinkers to couch their ideology in such a way they can modify it to mean new things as they are found wanting. See, now you realise that you are writing about TWO PERSONS in many of your posts, you suddenly discover that the trinity DOESN’T WORK!!!

    “I and my Father are ONE”

    “If you see me then you see the Father also”

    “I am going to my GOD …. My Father…”

    “Do you not know that I must be about my father’s work?”

    “I will SEND you the spirit of truth (do you agree this is the Holy Spirit?) FROM my Father”

    “Wait in Jerusalem and I will send you THE PROMISE OF (from?) THE FATHER”

    ….many more…

    Lu, the Holy Spirit is THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER…THE SPIRIT OF ALMIGHTY GOD.

    Stop right there…!!!!

    Lu, the UNITY OF SPIRITS of GOD and HIS CHRIST just means that THEY ARE OF ONE PURPOSE. Jesus DOES ONLY what he sees the Father doing – SPEAKS ONLY what the Father tells him… LU, THIS IS THE PERFECT UNITY.

    But, LU, the apostles could not receive the spirit of the Father directly into their sinful hearts – it would destroy them. Witness the effects of that direct injection of the power of God (via Angels) in those prophets of the Old Testament. Only an advocate that limited its power according to their ability would suffice: The spirit of A MAN, wholly and sinless, who knows the frailties of a man: Jesus Christ, The spirit of Jesus Christ.

    Lu, this means that God is not expecting us to be PERFECT, as God is perfect. He gives leeway for our humanity, our flesh being, our sinfulness: ‘God cannot look upon sin…’ We are separated from God through our sin… We can see a glimpse of God through The SPIRIT of Jesus.

    Lu, you really need to stop making things up. You take verses out of context and timeframe. You quote verses that actually do not even support your claims…

    You worship a false image of what you claim is your multi-person God!

    LU, God is ONE!

    For YOU, ‘There is ONE GOD: the Father AND JESUS Christ – and one Lord: Jesus Christ’?????

    For me, ‘There is ONE GOD: THE FATHER, and ONE Lord: Jesus Christ.’

    Lu, rightly so that you cannot define ‘GOD’! When you try in your ideology it is confusion beyond imagination. God is ‘a mystery’ to you!

    Even when Jesus himself says to ‘Worship the Father’ and that the Father is ‘THE ONLY TRUE GOD’, it still doesn’t mean TRUTH to you!

    #818897
     Jael 
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    LU, you said:

    Within the unity of God there is a level of authority and one is subject to the other because one was brought out of (begotten from) the other as His very own Son. Surely the one who begat would have more authority than the one who was begotten. The perfect Son would certainly be eternally subordinate to His perfect Father otherwise the Son would not be perfect.

    Ha ha ha … Sorry…. Ha ha ha…

    Lu, ever heard of the word, ‘OXYMORON’??

    ‘God has more authority than his son but they are both equal’!!

    LU, ‘EQUALITY’ is ‘COMMUTATIVE’ (look it up)

    There is NO SUBORDINATION IN GOD.

    #818913
     Lightenup 
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    @jael

    you said:

    Lu, ever heard of the word, ‘OXYMORON’??

    ‘God has more authority than his son but they are both equal’!!

    You, Jael, as a son of your earthly father, were subordinate to him while he was raising you. However, during that time and also now, you have both been equally human have you not??

    #818914
     Jael 
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    Lu. ‘God is spirit’

    Spirit does not procreate.

    You have created your own idolotous belief and now cannot (obviously) string two sentences of worthiness that results in credibility.

    As for ‘equality’ of Father and son…as with all your ideologies, you are stumbling badly.

    I asked you how the son of God is equal to God and yet subordinate to him. You replied that it is because the son is equally God (equivalently: a human son is equal to his Father by being equally human).

    LU…. ‘GOD’ is a TITLE… It is NOT A STATE OF BEING.

    Lu, you know, like ‘KING’ or ‘MAJESTY’ or ‘FATHER’….!

    LU, The son of [the] King is NOT KING.

    LU, please stop using the TITLE, ‘God’, as if it is a PERSON.

    Lu, Jesus is ‘The Prince of Peace’. A ‘Prince’ is SUBORDINATE to a KING. Trinity fallacy states that Jesus was WILLINGLY subordinate to Yahweh. LU, Yahweh GAVE Jesus the power and authority – do you not read the scriptures that we are discussing?

    ‘The things I do are not of myself BUT THE Father working IN ME’;

    ‘The Father is GREATER THAN I’;

    ‘I can do ONLY what I see the Father do’;

    ‘I speak only what the Father taught me to say’.

    ‘I speak not my own words but of HIM who sent me’,

    ‘You must WORSHIP the Father alone’,

    ‘This means life, that they should believe that you, Father, are THE ONLY TRUE GOD’.

    …LU, just where in scriptures do you get the ideas for your false ideology?

     

    #818915
     Jael 
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    LU, each time your false ‘God’ is found wanting you attempt to induce another false idea into your ideology.

    When are you going to stop and admit that your belief is based on ‘feminine idealism’: Unfounded ideas along the lines of ‘Mary, mother of GOD’.

    #818923
     Lightenup 
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    @jael

    Just meditate on the perfect, eternal unity of the Father and the Son with an open mind.

    #818927
     Jael 
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    You mean, ‘Become deluded’ as you are, LU? No thanks.

    You are romancing a dream of Eternal Unity.

    Not only does the Christian scriptures never ever speak of any such ‘Eternal’ relationship but you are confused as to what scriptures says at all.

    Consider that you cannot respond to how ‘The Son is equal to the Father’ from a scriptural or even Jewish point of view (viz: It is IMPOSSIBLE to make such a claim: That which is created cannot be equal to its creator) because no scripture or Jewish tradition ever makes such a claim.

    You quote verses making a strange claim that Jesus created the world and all in it – but the verses immediately backtrack and state that GOD created it all ‘THROUGH’ Jesus, and that it was ‘CREATED FOR HIM’.

    Lu, truly, stand back and read what it says… Analyse the words… They are HILARIOUSLY badly screwed up.

    Are you serious that ‘Jesus created the world for himself’! But that GOD created it FOR HIM. (Please say ‘yes’, because I know you can’t do otherwise, shame and embarrassment don’t permit the truth for you)

    Lu, you know scriptures says that GOD CREATED the world ‘BY MYSELF’ (himself). LU, what did Satan say to Jesus at the temptation in the wilderness regarding the ‘kingdoms of the world’?

    Lu, did Satan say he would give them TO JESUS if Jesus worshipped him BECAUSE they were HIS ‘to give to whom I will’?

    Lu, if the ‘kingdoms of the world’ belong to Satan… how did they ‘belong’ to Jesus if he was being tempted to acquire them illegally?

    Lu, whenever Jesus performed a miracle he FIRST prayed to the Father for POWER AND AUTHORITY … How is that EQUALITY.

    Lu, the Father GRANTED Jesus to have the power to judge life and death to believers.

    Lu, the Father, God Almighty, Yahweh, spoke the ADOPTION STATEMENT to Jesus, ‘Today you have BECOME MY SON…’ Yet you say he was ETERNALLY son…

    Lu, how SILLY is it to say to your EQUAL (as you say), ‘I am well pleased with you’! Do you really say that – WHO WOULD you say that to?

    Lu, EQUALITY IS COMMUTATIVE. Is the Father EQUAL to The Son? (No trini or ‘Jesus is God’ (JiG) ever responds – no need to ask why!)

    Lu, stop fantasising and romantasising scriptures.

    #818963
     Lightenup 
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    @jael

    you say things but you don’t realize how you affirm the unity of the Father, Son and their Holy Spirit. Think about it, my young friend. The Son does nothing to completion apart from the Father and likewise, the Father does nothing to completion apart from the Son.

    Who made the Father the creator? Answer…The Son who was the eternal life that was with the Father from the beginning.

    Who made the Father the savior? Answer…The Son who was the eternal life that was with the Father from the beginning, whom was manifested in the flesh, crucified in the flesh and rose again putting an end to the sting of death, redeeming the church and will someday present the church as a bride to the Father, His very own Father.

    You see cooperation within the perfect unity of God throughout the New Testament.

    #818966
     AndrewAD 
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    Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

    In these verses we see it’s the Father who reveals the Son,and the Son who reveals the Father so this shows their unity and interdependence. Jesus also says no man comes to the Father but by me,and no man can come to me except the Father draw him,I and the Father are one,if you’ve seen me you’ve seen the Father.We can thank the Father for the Son and thank the Son for the Father,so in this sense they are equally divine. If we can’t have one without the other then they are certainly joined at the hip in terms of Christian salvation. So what God hath joined together let not man put asunder,but if it’s only man that hath joined them together then let God put them asunder.

    The prophet in Isaiah 42:8 declares Jehovah will not give his glory to another,yet throughout the NT we see God give his authority and glory to his Son in various ways so if this be true then the Son must needs be Jehovah/God also.Even as it’s revealed in Jn 12:41 that when Isaiah saw the glory of Jehovah it was the glory of Jesus Christ.Without Jesus Christ whom was sent there is no true God nor eternal life.

    #818967
     Jael 
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    Andrew, you should read what the scripture says, not what you WANT it to say.

    Where does the text you wrote say that the father reveals the son?

    Nowhere. It only says that the son reveals the father…which is EXACTLY what Jesus came to do: reveal who GOD IS… To give the Jews THE TESTAMENT FROM GOD (‘I do only what I see my father do – I say only what he taught me to say!’, see other references to ‘Salvation of the Jews’)

    As for God not giving his glory to anyone else, you must stop going off on tangents. THE ONE GOD OF THE JEWS tells the people of his favoured nation, Israel, that he is their ONLY GOD… There is NONE OTHER LIKE HIM… He, alone, is their creator and only to him should sacred worship be given.

    Why does Yahweh God (‘the LORD’ God) say these things to them??

    The Israelites nation was surrounded and often lived (enslaved by) nations that believed in multiple deities as their Gods. These Gods controlled or were responsible for varying or specific aspects of the visible world – a God of rain, of harvest, of night, of the sun, of conception and birth, etc. Each deity was to be worshipped and given glory appropriate to their RANK… (Yes, trinitarians borrowed this aspect from pagan belief when they couldn’t explain how Jesus is God but not the same as God, indeed, I’d the three Trinity Gods are all the SAME why is there a need for THREE OF THEM!!?)

    Yahweh stresses to his people that they are to believe only in HIM as their God, that he, and he alone created, that ONLY TO HIM should glory be given, ABD that HIS GLORY will not be given to (an)other God(s): What he did he will not see glorified in another.

    Andrew, you, as a Kindergarten teacher , created a wonderful classroom scenario for your pupils. Later, other classes and teachers use your room and claim each is their creator. After a few years you move up to be Principal and your old pupils start hearing of other pupils’ teachers staking a claim on your work and even some of your pupils start believing the other classes. Would you not be indignant and say, ‘This is the works of my hands.. I will not see my glory given to another – I will not share my glory with another!’

    Andrew, the verse you state is not speaking about the glory given to the son. It is about the Israelites abstaining from giving worship to pagan deities.

     

    #818968
     Lightenup 
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    @jael

    Jael, you asked Andrew this:

    Andrew, you should read what the scripture says, not what you WANT it to say.

    Where does the text you wrote say that the father reveals the son?

    Nowhere. It only says that the son reveals the father…

    I assume that Andrew can handle this himself  but since this is an open discussion, I am willing to help you also with this, Jael especially since it will take almost no time at all. Here is a scripture that clearly shows that God reveals His Son, albeit in a different scriptural passage:

    Revelation 1:1

     1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, 2who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

    P.S. God reveals the Son as the Lord of lords and the one, who, with Himself, receives blessing, honor, glory and dominion forever and ever from EVERY CREATED THING. Read just a few of the things that God has revealed regarding His Son:

    13And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”

    Revelation 19 11And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

    Jesus, who is in unity with the Father, is the Lamb who is being spoken about here, btw. I could also show you that God reveals who Jesus is when He declares that Jesus is His own Son with whom He is well pleased but I have in the past. If you need a reminder, or claim that isn’t so, just let me know and I will be happy to clear that up for you. I hope that helps!

    Now, as the scripture above says, “Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near,” I hope for you, and all of us here at HN to be among the “blessed.”

    Side note, before you start claiming that we can’t use the word “God” like a name, you might want to check out this page and realize that every translation on it uses the word “God” as a name. http://biblehub.com/revelation/1-1.htm

    #818969
     Lightenup 
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    @AndrewAD

    You wrote:

    In these verses we see it’s the Father who reveals the Son,and the Son who reveals the Father so this shows their unity and interdependence. Jesus also says no man comes to the Father but by me,and no man can come to me except the Father draw him,I and the Father are one,if you’ve seen me you’ve seen the Father.We can thank the Father for the Son and thank the Son for the Father,so in this sense they are equally divine. If we can’t have one without the other then they are certainly joined at the hip in terms of Christian salvation. So what God hath joined together let not man put asunder,but if it’s only man that hath joined them together then let God put them asunder.

    Amen brother! Be blessed!!

    #818978
     t8 
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    You, Jael, as a son of your earthly father, were subordinate to him while he was raising you. However, during that time and also now, you have both been equally human have you not?

    Oh, so Jesus grows up and becomes part of God himself, another god equal to the Most High,or perhaps even better than God. What a joke all these false doctrines about God are.

    Clearly there is not one God the Father for you and clearly you disagree with Jesus as to who the only God is.

    So you can see why no one believes your testimony. Who in their right mind is going to believe you over Jesus? I would quit now if I were you. You are wasting your life on this one.

    #818979
     t8 
    Participant
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    Just meditate on the perfect, eternal unity of the Father and the Son with an open mind.

    Just meditate on the perfect, unity of the Father, the Son, and the sons with an open mind. You will see that of the three in unity, the Father is God.

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