The Son is Equal to The Father: Trinity Fallacy!

This topic contains 115 replies, has 4 voices, and was last updated by  Lightenup 6 months, 3 weeks ago.

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  • #818865
     Lightenup 
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    @jael

    you asked:

    Lu, what IF Adam had not sinned – would there have been a SAVIOUR?

    There would still have been one who was equipped to be a savior if necessary. If He was not needing to save any lost, Adam and Eve and all their descendants still needed Him to create them, give them life and care for them. It is through the Father AND the Son AND Their Holy Spirit that this takes place.

    “Let US make man.”

     

    #818866
     Lightenup 
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    @jael

    you said:

    You will see that Jesus did not state, NOR DID ANY FIRST CENTURY APOSTLE, that Jesus was GOD, neither that Jesus was YAHWEH.

    If you have the eyes to see, you would see that He did and that they did. But you don’t have the eyes to see this. I’m trying to help you, my young friend.

    Answer this question:

    In the power of what name did the Israelites experience/perform supernatural events in the OT?

    In the power of what name did the 1st century apostles experience/perform supernatural events in the NT?

    #818870
     Jael 
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    LU, you said “There would still have been one who was equipped to be a savior if necessary. If He was not needing to save any lost, Adam and Eve and all their descendants still needed Him to create them, give them life and care for them. It is through the Father AND the Son AND Their Holy Spirit that this takes place.”

    LU, you are avoiding the question – and this is fully understandable seeing that you know what the true answer is…

    Lu, what does the scriptures say about God seeking a saviour from among Adam’s offspring?

    How many times did God send a ‘saviour’ to the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews and yet all failed somewhere along the line?

    And when God saw that there was no one, ‘nay, not one’, he created a fully holy man in the manner of Adam (enspirited by the Holy Spirit).

    As to your second post:

    1) The name they called upon was YHWH (in Hebrew) which the bible translate confusingly as ‘LORD’ (Always and distinctly in all caps but ignored by many disruptive trinitarians who try to say that Jesus was also ‘Lord’… Not the same reference but desperadoes will try!!)

    2) The name in the New Testament they called upon was ‘Jesus’. You will of course note that Yahweh (YHWH) empowered this holy and sinless man to speak in his stead (Remember Moses!!!). God distanced himself from sinful mankind but put this holy sinless man as a gateway so mankind could still reach him. We must call to God THROUGH the gateway of Jesus Christ – IN the name of Jesus Christ.

    Im sure you know the quoted verse, LU, referring to ‘no man reaching God except through the son.

    If Jesus were God….LU… Why would we need to go through God to reach God?

    #818871
     Jael 
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    LU, what do you mean by ‘The Father and the son and THEIR HOLY SPIRIT’?

    Are there TWO or just ONE Holy Spirit – and – WHOSE HOLY SPIRIT does SCRIPTURES say it is?

    Where does any scripture state or claim that the Holy Spirit of the Father is also the holy spiritual of the son?

    Lu, just WHERE are you getting these wrongful ideas from?

    #818872
     Lightenup 
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    @jael

    you asked me:

    If Jesus were God….LU… Why would we need to go through God to reach God?

    Together they are God, not independantly. We go through Jesus because He is the way to the Father.

    #818873
     Jael 
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    Like, that does not make any sense at all.

    ‘They are both God’? So you need to go through the gateway that is God to get to God???

    And in any case, where are you getting this unfounded notion that ‘they are both God’?

    LU, define ‘GOD’ (I’ve already shown you that ‘God’ is a TITLE but you keep using it as a NAME.)

    #818874
     Lightenup 
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    @jael

    you asked:

    LU, what do you mean by ‘The Father and the son and THEIR HOLY SPIRIT’?

    Are there TWO or just ONE Holy Spirit – and – WHOSE HOLY SPIRIT does SCRIPTURES say it is?

    The Father has His own spirit, the Son has His own spirit. They are in complete unity as one Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is ever within them and has the potential to omnipresently extend from them. You have heard the phrase “unity of the Spirit?”

    Ephesians 4:1Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, 2with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, 3being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

    I’m so thankful for people like you that prompt me to meditate on the magnificence of the unity of God the Father with His Son, our Lord and their Spirit. It is to the glory of the Father (uncreated) that His Son (also uncreated) participated in creating all things and was given all things that He Himself (the Son) created for the Father; and through their united Holy Spirit, They are able to unite those created beings who have a believing faith.

     

    So, thank you, my young friend, for being one of those who indirectly and inadvertently lead me closer to the understanding of the unity of that which divinely created us and loves us and wants a relationship with us…the Father together with the Son through their Holy Spirit.

     

    #818875
     Lightenup 
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    @jael

    you said:

    Like, that does not make any sense at all.

    ‘They are both God’?

    My response:

    I said that together they are God, not independantly. We do not have two independent Gods. We have one God who is the Father together with His Son and their Holy Spirit. God the Father is not God apart from His Son and their Holy Spirit.

    You asked me to define God. Well, I don’t think that myself or anyone can adequately define God but I feel confident to say that ultimately, the title ‘God’ would go to the creator of creation. I believe this creation we exist as part of, was created as a Father and Son ‘team’ who are both uncreated and perfect in all possible ways and united in spirit as well as essence.

     

    #818876
     Jael 
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    LU, you know nothing at all.

    If you are ‘worshipping’ a God that you do not know (and you are) then all these discussions are futile as you can never really see the glory they you imagine that you are seeing.

    God is ONE… Not a multiple – you make God (THE GOD) into three being (set of) deities just as in Hindu and Egyptian.

    My guess is that you a sad romantic for foreign worship but want to keep in the guise of Christian trinity belief.

     

    God is ONE … God is the Father. Jesus is a man just as scriptures says. Scriptures NEVER calls him anything else – ‘Lord’ does not mean ‘God’.. ‘son of God’ does not and cannot mean ‘God’… You try to circumvent the truth by claiming that Together they are God…and yet you cannot define who God is (afraid, more like! The scriptures TELLS US who THE GOD is!!!)

    #818877
     Lightenup 
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    @jael

    You are a perfect example of a person who sees but cannot see. It is like you see the mountain without the valley. You cannot have one without the other, my friend. Think about it.

    Jael, what you said here “God is ONE… Not a multiple…” is true but the “oneness” is an interdependent unity, not an independent singularity nor is it a three being set of deities. The scripture calls them the God of gods and the Lord of lords and they are one.

    Peace and blessings to you my young friend.

    #818878
     Jael 
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    LU, ‘God of God, Lord of Lords’ is speaking about GOD ALMIGHTY. There is no where where Jesus is mentioned as being ‘God of Gods and Lord of lords’.

    I asked you to define ‘God’ and you cannot because you fear what it means… I’m not surprised – it’s stock trinitarian response: ‘Oh dear, if I do then I cannot include Jesus and the holy spirit as also God – best to wheedle my way out AND HOPE HE DOESNT REFER TO SCRIPTURES…!’

    Lu, Yahweh says he is the ‘God of all Gods…’ This means that the TITLE of God’ refers to ANYONE who is the ULTIMATE IN THEIR CONTEXTUAL CATEGORY…. And YAHWEH GOD is the ULTIMATE IN ALL CATEGORIES: ‘God of ALL GODS’.

    Lu, how can JESYS be ‘ULTIMATE IN ALL CATEGORIES if he is SUBORDINATE TO THE Father?

    And likewise the Holy Spirit: IT IS the SPIRIT OF THE FATHER… and therefore subordinate to the Father.

    You mentioned earlier, the spirit of Jesus… This is JESUS’ personal spirit…and the apostles were called to REMAIN IN HIS SPIRIT (Be like him!!) The Holy Spirit OF THE FATHER and the Spirit JESUS are NOT the SAME PERSONAL SPIRIT. The UNITY is that of ONE PURPOSE.

    Remember that Yahweh ‘Gave HIS spirit TO JESUS for JESUS to give to the Apostles. LU, READ THE SCRIPTURES AND STOP CHERRY PUCKING VERSES.

    Jesus STATES in John: 14:16, ‘And I will ASK THE FATHER, and HE WILL GIVE YOU another advocate… (Vs17) the Spirit of truth….’

    See also: Joel 2:28-32; (Whose spirit would be poured out?)

    Acts 2:1-4; (What did Jesus say would happen at Pentecost?)

    Romans 8:11-13 (Whose spirit raised up Jesus?)

    In John, at Jesus’ baptism, whose spirit descended on Jesus…? Was it a PERSON or a THING (oh, and it WASNT A DOVE… The Holy Spirit of the Father (oops, I just gave you the answer!!!) descended ‘IN THE MANNER OF A DOVE’… Not ‘AS A DOVE’ as trinitarians love to say!! A light fluttering (breeze) as a dove is want to make when alighting. Witness the difference for the apostles at Pentecost… Now LU, WHICH trinitarian PORTRAYS the Holy Spirit as FORKS OF LIGHTENING …curiously some trinitarian churches call themselves PENTECOSTALS but potent the Holy Spirit AS A DOVE… BUT there WAS NO ‘DOVE’ at Pentecost!!!!)

    Luke 24:49, (‘The promise of the Father’… What was that promise? Whose SPIRIT, LU?)

    And also, Acts 2:33, (I’ll let you read it yourself)

    See, LU, anyone (yoyrself included) who makes a claim that the Holy Spirit is also Jesus’ spirit, is so disingenuous to truth that it is not a wonder that so much more nonsense flows from your mind.

    But there is hope, LU. Keep writing to me and I will pray that God opens your eyes through the truth I write to you.

    #818879
     Lightenup 
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    @jael

    You said:

    LU, ‘God of God, Lord of Lords’ is speaking about GOD ALMIGHTY. There is no where where Jesus is mentioned as being ‘God of Gods and Lord of lords’.

    My response:

    Paul explains that the God of gods and the Lord of Lords is, for us, both, together, the Father AND the Son.

    5For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

    God reveals Yeshua/Jesus as the Lord of lords.

    Revelation 17 14“These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”

     

     

    #818880
     Lightenup 
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    @jael

    you asked me:

    Lu, how can JESUS be ‘ULTIMATE IN ALL CATEGORIES if he is SUBORDINATE TO THE Father?

    Within the unity of God there is a level of authority and one is subject to the other because one was brought out of (begotten from) the other as His very own Son. Surely the one who begat would have more authority than the one who was begotten. The perfect Son would certainly be eternally subordinate to His perfect Father otherwise the Son would not be perfect.

     

    #818881
     Lightenup 
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    @jael

    you said:

    THE FATHER and the Spirit JESUS are NOT the SAME PERSONAL SPIRIT.

    My response: I assume you meant to say the Spirit “of” Jesus there and my response will reflect that correction. Correct me if I assumed wrong. The spirit of the Father and the spirit of the Son are NOT the same personal spirit. That is also how I understand it. However, the Holy Spirit is a unity of both of their personal spirits as I understand. It is that united Holy Spirit of which they both were involved in sending as a gift to us, to comfort and guide us, that bears witness to explain the truth of both of them. You cannot have the personal spirit of the Father apart from having the personal spirit of the Son and visa versa. You must have BOTH personal spirits which come to us as one united spirit which we call the Holy Spirit.

    Joel 2:28-32


    28“It will come about after this
    That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind;
    And your sons and daughters will prophesy,
    Your old men will dream dreams,
    Your young men will see visions.

    29“Even on the male and female servants
    I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

     

    The Day of the LORD

    30“I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth,
    Blood, fire and columns of smoke.

    31“The sun will be turned into darkness
    And the moon into blood
    Before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.

    32“And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD
    Will be delivered;
    For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
    There will be those who escape,
    As the LORD has said,
    Even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

    The “I” in the above passage represents the unity of God who is the God of gods and the Lord of lords. You will see in the NT that both of them are involved in the pouring out of the Spirit and that their Spirit includes the spirit of the Father and the spirit of the Son.

    Galatians 4:6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”

    Luke 24:49 “And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”
    John 15:26 “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,

    Through the one Holy Spirit, we receive both the testimony about the Son and the testimony about the Father. The Father’s personal spirit testifies about the Son and the Son’s personal spirit testifies about the Father. You cannot receive one without the other.

    Jael, your testimony about the Son is that He is adopted. My testimony about the Son is that He is the only natural son of God the Father. Which understanding brings salvation?? Only one can be absolute truth which makes the other understanding a lie.

    Which one threatens satan the most?

    Which one threatens Islam the most? Answer: The understanding that Yeshua is the only “natural” son of God the Father. Islam does NOT give them BOTH the same glory and honor.

    Which one threatens the Orthodox Jews the most? Answer: The understanding that Yeshua is the only “natural” son of God the Father. Orthodox Jews do NOT give them BOTH the same glory and honor.

    Which one threatens Christianity the most? Answer: The understanding that Yeshua is NOT the only “natural” son of God the Father but instead is merely adopted. For Christianity gives them BOTH the same glory and honor which is blasphemy if one of them is just a man.

    So, realize that your views put you in a popular category but wide is the gate to destruction.

    Matt 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

    #818894
     Jael 
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    LU, your delusion is most troubling.

    The Old Testament verse is not speaking of TWO PERSONS (and if so how does a trinity arise from TWO!!! My goodness, trinitarians really cannot do basic first grade arithmetics!!)

    ‘God of Gods and Lord of Lords’ is a METAPHOR… What is up with you, LU? It means ‘THE GREATEST’… It is a SINGULAR reference. ‘Holy Moly’, I’ve heard trinitarians claim, ‘Me, myself, and I’ means there are a TRINITY of persons in ‘ME’…, I’ve heard them say that a (married?) man is THREE: ‘Father, Son, husband’… Three persons… Of course that same man could be ‘Grandfather, Uncle, and brother’ but whose counting…trini’s STILL only count One as THREE!

    No, LU, Paul is not speaking the metaphor… He is STATING A FACT of HIS RELIGIOUS BELIEF..

    But in any case, do you not read in Acts 2:36 that ‘God HAS MADE this Jesus whom you crucified to be both Lord and messiah /Christ’.

    Lu (silly argument but…) how was Jesus ‘Lord’ and ‘Christ’ BEFORE ‘God made him’ to be so?

    Lu, be careful with your response: do not post back flippantly.as trinitarians would do: Jesus HAD TO BE TESTED before he could be CLAIMED as SAVIOUR. If he HAD NOT PASSED the wilderness test……!!!!

    A-N-D…LU, remember that Jesus ALMOST FALTERED while in the garden of gethsemane, ‘-Father…IF THERE COULD HE ANOTHER WAY…!’

    The PROOF of the SALVATION BY THE CHRIST was AFTER THE DEED WAS DONE! After Jesus was CRUCIFIED and took on the sins of mankind and DIED, giving his holy blood as a sacrament for the sins of Adam (and mankind)….

    Lu, ‘GOD HAS MADE…’. LU, a WINNER is NOT a WINNER until he WINS!!!

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