February 14, 2017 at 4:33 pm #818671
“Jesus said he came forth from God. This is the same as being sent.”
But Jesus claimed in John 8 that he existed before Abraham and the Jews tried to stone him. If he would’ve just said well I was in God’s mind before Abraham was they probably wouldn’t have reacted so harshly. And you know John claims the preexistence of Jesus throughout.
So how was he sent before Abraham? Jesus was not yet fifty years old and he saw Abraham?February 15, 2017 at 4:29 am #818672
Andrew, Jesus did not say he existed before Abraham.
The Jews asked Jesus if he was greater than their forefather, Abraham. Jesus’ answer was indirect in that he alluded to the Jewish ordinal reflected in saying of John the Baptist: ‘He that comes after me is greater than I’.
1) Everyone puts on a concert with support FIRST and the greater main act AFTER.
2) ‘He who is to be FIRST must put themselves LAST…!’
3) ‘..The spiritual was not first. The flesh was first and then the spiritual!’
In all these examples, that which came AFTER was GREATER than that which came before. Yet that which is greater was also FOREKNOWN before the lesser: ‘…he that comes after me is greater, because he was before me’… John the Baptist was OLDER in time (6 months) than Jesus. Yet Jesus (CHRIST) was foreordained: ‘I will send my servant before me to prepare my way…’.
‘Before Abraham was…’ is not a reference to a chronology but spiritual ordinance.
Abraham was the greatest of the Jewish forefathers (not the prophets) Yet scriptures declares that Abraham saw ‘the day’ of the coming Christ: Abraham was great – but Christ WOULD BE GREATER.
Jesus’ words of, ‘Before Abraham was, I am’, are nothing to do with claiming to be Almighty God. Only a complete desperado could ever imagine such words are claims of an ultimate deity when even a few verses later Jesus DENIES a ‘supposed’ claim of such from the Jews: ‘I said only that I was the son of God…yet even Almighty God called those to whom his word came, GODS.’
Just in case you start claiming that the son of God IS GOD, Jesus went to SAY who the son of God is: ‘If I am not doing the works of my Father then do not believe me …’
The reaction of the Jews is natural. Of course they were horrified to hear someone who they saw as ‘A mere man’ suddenly claim to be greater than their greatest forefather… And, of course, they could only think CHRONOLOGICALLY therefore mistaking Jesus to be saying he was OLDER than Abraham: it makes NO OTHER SENSE for them to say, ‘You are not yet 50 yeas old and you have seen abraham?’ (50 years old is just a reference to old age – not a literal 50 years. Large Numbers in Jewish talk are more long periods of time than literal hours, days, weeks, months, years… How many times does ’40 days’ or ‘forty years’ or ’40 thousand’ used to refer to respective long periods…would be a strange coincidence if they were literal figures, wouldn’t it?)
Andrew, I think you have a long way to go towards the realisation of the truth if scriptures. The spirit is not yet with you and so the shackles of your trinitarian lessons is still raw in you.February 15, 2017 at 9:00 am #818673LightenupParticipant
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You would certainly not be put to death for your beliefs like the ones in the Foxe’s Book of Martyrs. They had a much different confession than you. Have you ever read that book? That alone should make you wonder about what you believe.February 16, 2017 at 4:07 pm #818678
You say-‘..The spiritual was not first. The flesh was first and then the spiritual!’ but remember we are talking from John’s gospel in which that spiritual Logos,which is Christ,was before all things. Christ tells those Jews in 8:51 that if a man keeps his saying he will never taste death.Their response is Abraham and the prophets are dead,so are you greater than they were? Who do you claim to be? Jesus tells them a couple verses later that your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day and he saw it and was glad. How could Jesus know such a thing unless he’d seen Abraham? And in this context both sides are accusing each other of being liars.Jesus told the Jews they were liars for saying they knew God even though they were children of Abraham. So was Jesus lying when he claimed to see Abraham? Is that what he was saying? the Jews ask outright,you are not yet fifty years old and you claim to have seen Abraham? Jesus answers in the affirmative that yes before Abraham was born, or existed he was existing,or I am.
You say “And, of course, they could only think CHRONOLOGICALLY therefore mistaking Jesus to be saying he was OLDER than Abraham” -If they mistook him then why did he not honestly correct them? Yet Jesus answers them with a chronological term “before”. He could’ve said “no I didn’t see him but he saw me”,which according to your way of thinking is what he should’ve honestly said.
The idea in John is that the Logos-Jesus,always was,before Abraham and before creation and the Logos is called God in John 1.It’s a consistent theme in John that Jesus is the logos which is God,albeit not the Father,who was not just an idea or plan but a personal entity. “In the beginning” is also chronology.February 17, 2017 at 2:19 pm #818687
Oh no…..! Not ‘John 1’???
Andrew, Andrew, Andrew… You lose!!!
When any trinitarian starts quoting ‘John 1’ or ‘Before Abraham, I am’, as a defence for their theology, it is a sure thing that they HAVE NO WORTHY THEOLOGY.
But just to humour you…
I just gave you full and frank examples from scriptures that demonstrate the theme that Jesus presented to the Jews. They knew these things because it is part of their philosophy: Did they understand John the Baptist when he said: ‘…the one to come is greater than me because he was before me’?
Of course they did. How? What is the philosophy of the Speaker? He who speaks LAST is remembered MORE; the LAST cannot be BETTERED; the LAST cannot be IMITATED: he who laughs LAST laughs loudest. Jesus is the LAST ADAM.
‘Jesus is the LAST ADAM’… If Jesus already existed, how can he be THE LAST?
Andrew, do you read the scriptures and tie what you read into what you believe?
‘Abraham longed to see my day, and saw it and was glad’.
Do you not see it in the scriptures in the Old Testament? Do you think it was only spoken by Jesus or do you not know that the Jews knew of this saying?
Yes, they knew all about their great forefather and knew that a Christ, a messiah, was coming — But, Andrew, they expected a WARRIOR CHRIST… They expected a HERO would come with all guns blazing and blast away their enemies (the Romans in particukar) and establish a Jewish kingdom ON EARTH. They expected someone of (human) noble birth, high and mighty. Who was thing simple looking man – Abraham stood out as a leader of men (Flesh) – now this man, who we know as a son of Joseph the carpenter, comes speaking of things of God (Spiritual) saying God sent him!!! Is this man greater than our forefather, Abraham?
Jesus invokes the Jewish principle of ‘precedence’: He who comes after is greater than he who was: Abraham was great but he who is to come, and now IS COME, is greater!!!
There is absolutely no suggestion in anything Jesus said that would indicate that he EXISTED BEFORE Abraham. The scriptures TELLS US that there would be a coming messiah… This is PROPHECY:
‘God speaks of things as if they have already taken place’!
….Pray for the Holy Spirit to guide you to the truth.February 17, 2017 at 4:08 pm #818689
Andrew, Andrew, Andrew… You lose!!! And just how do I lose? Your examples are ideas you get from other places and try to read into the verses we are discussing. You don’t expound the verse at all. I don’t see any reference to last Adam in John 8; that’s something from Paul. And neither is the saying “the first shall be last” from the synoptics,in John 8.
Do I lose because you consider my theology unworthy? I’m not telling you my theology but what I see the verses in question as saying. So maybe everyone is a loser if they don’t agree with or belong to your little sect? So what’s new,is that not what all the sects of Christianity think? And yes you do humour me.
And when I was a trinitarian I considered anyone who didn’t believe in Trinity as a heretic and lost.I no longer think that way and am no longer a trin but I don’t consider those who do believe it as lost or unworthy either.
So what about what the Baptist says in John 1:30 This is He on behalf of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ NASB read it in any translation you like or in Greek and the connotation is the same. and how about Jon 1:10 KJV He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. and vs15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. Now why do you think it’s worded this way only in John and not in the other gospels? Heres what Luke says in 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: yes John claims Jesus is greater than he but no mention of coming before.
‘Abraham longed to see my day, and saw it and was glad’. Do you not see it in the scriptures in the Old Testament? Do you think it was only spoken by Jesus or do you not know that the Jews knew of this saying? Please show me where this is in the OT,what do you think John had in mind?
” There is absolutely no suggestion in anything Jesus said that would indicate that he EXISTED BEFORE Abraham.”- John 17:5″And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. ” It seems to me this Jesus thought he existed before the world and if so then that was certainly before Abraham.February 17, 2017 at 6:03 pm #818693
“yes John claims Jesus is greater than he but no mention of coming before.” I there meant Luke not John;and neither Matthew or Mark use the chronological term “before”, but ” he who comes after me is mightier than I” not because he was before me but because he baptizes in the Holy Spirit.
So why is John the only one who says “he was before me” when he could’ve just worded it like the other gospels did? According to you Jael, they all mean the same thing right? and John still brings out the fact of Jesus baptizing in the Spirit in Jn 1:33February 21, 2017 at 11:40 am #818724
Andrew, if you write something like: ‘John CLAIMS (my emphasis) that Jesus is greater than him’ then I understand that you are a pure skeptic. Nothing shown to you is going to make any difference to your wayward opinion – if you even had one.
You ask (me?) why John is the only writer to say …’he that comes before me’… Well, the answer is obvious, isn’t it?
Every individual who writes his version of an event writes what he feels are the important constituents of that event.
And, as we agreed before: ‘The Gospel of John is SUSPICIOUS’.
The concept of ‘The greater coming after the lesser’ is, as I said, scripturally a Jewish concept. Trinitarians would naturally try to poke in an untimely attempt at claiming what was not said. So, tampering with the scriptures could be the answer.
However, there is nothing wrong with saying, ‘he was before me’. The Jews did not run away when John said this – they came and were baptised by him. SO CLEARLY they did not envisage that John was talking about a man who was born before him …because they UNDERSTOOD the concept of ‘Coming before’… Perhaps like, ‘AHEAD OF ME’!
Think about it: doesn’t scriptures say, ‘I will send my servant who will prepare my way before me’?
The servant starts the works of HIM and the people are amazed and asks the servant if he is the expected one. The servant declares that, ‘You think these things are great?? Just you wait….!! He that comes after me is [even] greater than I. His greatness was spoken of before mine! (he was before me)’.
At no point except in trinitarian fallacies does anyone imagine John was speaking of a pre-eternal person…
Andrew, was anyone shocked by John? Even when John said, ‘This is he of whom I spoke of…’, did anyone say, ‘Oh right, yeah really… He’s just a man and younger than you, at that! I thought you said he was OLDER, in fact ETERNALLY OLDER, than you??’February 21, 2017 at 12:10 pm #818725
Oh, by the way, Andrew, please read Galations 3 and you will see several times where reference is made to Abraham (fore)seeing Jesus’ day — BY FAITH in what YHWH said to him that through his, abraham, seed a saviour would come.
Double by the way… Jesus DOES NOT SAY that he SAW ABRAHAM…. Jesus said that ABRAHAM SAW HIS DAY!!!
Think about that in question of what the Jews asked Jesus: ‘You are not yet 50 years old – and you have SEEN Abraham?’
Anomalie???February 21, 2017 at 3:33 pm #818726
Andrew, if you write something like: ‘John CLAIMS (my emphasis) that Jesus is greater than him’ then I understand that you are a pure skeptic.” That’s not anything skeptical at all.Just re read how I wrote it. And I misread my own writing because i did mean to say John like I said;my point being John Baptist says in Luke that Jesus is greater than he,with nothing about him being before him.When I said John claims it’s the same as saying John says in Luke.So doesn’t John the Baptist CLAIM Jesus is greater than himself in the gospels? Just like Paul claims to be or says he’s an apostle?
Jesus DOES NOT SAY that he SAW ABRAHAM…. Jesus said that ABRAHAM SAW HIS DAY!!! You are right but the Jews took it that way and Jesus answered them in the affirmative with before Abraham was I was or I am. The theme of John is to show Jesus divine nature which includes preexistence and is taught through the whole gospel. I understand if you don’t want to believe it,but why deny what it says and try to make it say something else?
So how do you explain away Jn 17:5? It’s so amazing how people like to say the Bible means what it says until it doesn’t..And I never agreed with you that John was suspicious,I simply made the point that without John’s gospel the doctrine of Trinity may not have come about.I said that after you seemed to say it was trinitarian addition. Is that what you were saying?
“please read Galations 3 and you will see several times where reference is made to Abraham (fore)seeing Jesus’ day — BY FAITH in what YHWH said to him that through his, abraham, seed a saviour would come” That’s what I was expecting;that is Paul’s interpretation of Abraham. So the saying “Abraham rejoiced to see my day and he saw it and was glad” is nowhere in the OT as you formerly claimed.The Jews knew nothing of it. But I do agree that the author of John probably got his ideas from some such teaching like Pauls in Galatians.February 24, 2017 at 5:16 am #818747
So sad that you are debating, discussing, decrying… scriptures that you have extremely limited knowledge of!!
The Jews KNEW ALL ABOUT their foreFather, Abraham. Children were taught intensively about the Torah for their belief and because it was the formal method of personal and family and national teaching.
The Jews knew that the Christ (Greek), Messiah (Hebrew) would come from the line of Abraham.
All the Jews were taught and recited the Torah even if they didn’t fully understand what they read. God allows the revelation in its own time – he is the only one who ‘Says things before they happen as though they had already happened’ – he reveals snippets of his plan to the holy prophets of which the Jew regard Abraham as their greatest… Not even Moses (of which it is said Jesus is one in the likeness of him!) nor David, of which his throne (Spiritually) will be taken by one whom will rule forever!!
And you say they ‘knew nothing’!!!!!? You fall into your own hole… It is well said by you:
“It’s so amazing how people like to say the Bible means what it says until it doesn’t…”February 24, 2017 at 1:27 pm #818749
Now you know I didn’t say the Jews knew nothing of Abraham.They knew nothing of Jesus words in Jn 8 where he said,Abraham rejoiced to see my day,and he saw it and was glad. You know there is no reference to that in the OT. I ask you again to show me where you think it is? And no it’s not in Gal 3.February 24, 2017 at 3:00 pm #818750
Jael,the Jews response of “you are not yet fifty years old” shows they were clueless of what he meant So instead of giving them a reference from the Torah about Abraham he gives them his own word-“before Abraham was I am”.-but perhaps that is an OT reference about God.? Remember Jesus tells them in vs37 that he knows they are Abrahams descendants,but seek to kill him for not accepting His word.In vs 38 Jesus says he’s seen God-I speak that which I’ve seen with my Father.The Jews claim Abraham as their father and Jesus claims God as his. And Jesus says he’s seen God and Abraham too.
vs 43 Why do you not understand what I say? because you cannot hear my word-which Jesus says is God’s word.February 25, 2017 at 3:31 pm #818751
Andrew, Jesus NEVER says he has seen ‘God’… Where do you get that from?
Even the scriptures says that no man has seen the Father (or God) …’The SON WHO IS IN THE BOSOM OF THE FATHER, he has REVEALED HIM’.
The ‘Bosom’ position is exactly what we know it as: ‘Closest confidence’… The Father has revealed things to the son that no one else knows…
And as for Abraham seeing Jesus’ day…. I think you must be a true skeptic!!
God tells Abraham (Genesis 12.1-3, 15.1-6, 17.1-8) that great glory would come through his (Abraham’s) seed. Scriptures is not revealed to us in singular places …Jesus states that Abraham saw his day and was glad… Galatians expounds on that statement… and you say that the expounding doesn’t count!! Andrew, that’s amazing – someone says ‘It’s raining outside’ and you say, ‘How do you know…where is your proof?’ The speaker points to the falling rain outside through the window and shows you the local weather forecast predicting rain that day and that hour… And YOU say ‘Those PROOFS DON’T count!!!’
Amdrew, I think you truly have no spiritual awareness. Galatians states that Abraham saw the day of the coming saviour BY FAITH in what God Almighty told him… And you disbelieve GOD ALMIGHTY, Jesus Christ, and the great prophet Abraham….
Andrew, you are sad!!February 25, 2017 at 3:50 pm #818752
Andrew, what do you say about the huge gaff made in the report that the Jews replied to Jesus, ‘You are not yet 50 years old – and you have seen Abraham!!’
This after Jesus had ONLY SAID that ABRAHAM had seen HIS (Jesus’) day.
The response from the Jews does not tally with the statement from Jesus…
Could this be YET ANOTHER IRRATIONAL TRINITARIAN attempt to claim Jesus was around in the time of Abraham? Sounds like it….!
In fact, it turns out to be a shot in the arm…because if (and was that) Abraham SAW Jesus’ day as a FUTURE event — then Jesus CANNOT have existed in the time of Abraham…
See, trinitarians tripped themselves up YET AGAIN by trying to tamper with the scriptures!!!
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