March 12, 2018 at 12:38 pm #821589Ed JParticipant
- Topics started 155
- Total replies 27,792
Your logic fails youMarch 13, 2018 at 4:53 pm #821610
The book of Isaiah is speaking about a MAN who says he will ascend to heaven and be like the Most High. The king was likened to the morning star, also known as the planet Venus. Pagan men of power believed they were gods, demanded they be worshiped as gods. They built high towers and said they dwelt in the heavens. God raises up and brings down as He pleases. There is nothing in Isaiah that is speaking of a supernatural entity being literally cast down from heaven.
Interesting how there are differences to the translation within Ezekiel, the Septuagint said to be created 3rd century BCE by 6 scholars from each of the 12 tribes, verses the Masoretic text created by Masoretes between the 7th and 10 centuries CE.
Was the lamentation over king Tyre comparing him to Adam or to an angel? We know of Adam’s creation we do not know about the creation of the angels or any other supernatural entity. The scripture is clearly talking about Adam and things that were created on earth for Adam when Adam was created. The text becomes absurd and doesn’t make sense to say that the king is being likened to an angel when it is talking about earthly things prepared for men.
NRS from the Septuagint,
Ezekiel 28: 11 Moreover the word of the Lord came to me: 12 Mortal, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord God: You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, carnelian, chrysolite, and moonstone, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald; and worked in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared. 14 With an anointed cherub as guardian I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked among the stones of fire. 15 You were blameless in your ways from the day that you were created, until iniquity was found in you. 16 In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from among the stones of fire. 17 Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you.
What in Psalms 109 has anything to do with a fallen angel, or some other sort of supernatural entity? Revelation 12 is like Isaiah in expressing men of power and being cast down.March 13, 2018 at 5:04 pm #821611
To be Satan is to have in MIND the things of MEN, this is expressed through Jesus’s own words, who also tells us that evil comes from WITHIN, he never says it comes from us being vessels allowing supernatural entities to influence us. Satan is not a supernatural entity using snakes or mankind as vessels. There was no literal snake in the Garden of Eden, the snake represented the carnal mind, and the punishment to the snake represented man in a new fallen state going forward living in the fear of death and thus being drawn to serve the self in order to survive.
Genesis 3: 14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Literally the snake was the most crafty beast? Literally the snake is the most cursed? Let’s compare all the cursing done to men in the bible verses snakes.
Micah 7: 17 They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the LORD our God, and shall fear because of thee.
Psalms 44: 25 For our soul is bowed down to the dust: our belly cleaveth unto the earth. 26 Arise for our help, and redeem us for thy mercies’ sake.
Romans 16: 18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
Genesis 3: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
The serpent in the Garden of Eden was a literal serpent and was punished for allowing itself to be a vessel? So then the serpent’s literal seed is at enmity with the woman’s seed? Absurd!
The woman’s seed, Jesus, was at enmity with the carnal mind, and he OVERCAME the carnal mind, submitting to God’s Will and denying his own.
Does anyone find it interesting that the mind of mankind today is known as a truine brain of which one part is called the reptilian or serpent brain?
Man was made in the image of God, we were made as independent thinkers having our own minds, being given an imagination so that we could also create and design like our Heavenly Father. Like our Heavenly Father we seek glory and fulfillment. However we are IGNORANT. Adam and Eve in their carnal minds believed their own lie that they would not DIE from taking of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. They trusted their own imaginations that the Tree would make them wise and would make them like God. They trusted in their own imaginations over God and they also tried to make God into a liar by believing that they would not die.
Our imagination is a great gift but it is also our achilles heel when it is combined with ignorance and has a lack of trust in God.
Genesis 2: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Romans 8: 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Jesus crucified the old man and made a new man, he was a man that denied his serpent brain and submitted to the will of God. Jesus is now immortal as Adam and Eve were in the beginning, but unlike Adam and Eve he has full trust in God, he proved this going to the cross. Jesus was spiritually minded when his flesh was weak, now he is the perfected man with no weak flesh drawing him to serve himself through fear of death. Jesus has a heavenly imagination one that relies on God. When Christ returns we will begin to live on earth as God intended, how exciting and fulfilling it will be, using our imaginations under the will of God. When the second resurrection comes people will be raised mortal they will still have a carnal mind with an imagination that trusts in itself, thus our adversary will be loose once again on earth for a time, but then it will be eternally destroyed.
Proverbs 1:31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
Proverbs 18: 21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.
Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of their own way, of their own imaginations that led them astray.March 13, 2018 at 5:56 pm #821612
Man is only a weak and simple vessel.
His thoughts, his behaviours and his speech reflect the owner of that vessel.
So easily deceived and manipulated by ‘sin in the flesh’ living in him he cannot please the Lord God of heaven and earth.
Yes Sheol is the waiting place of the dead and the pit part is for those awaiting the second death
So the verses are directed at the human vessels.
Of course it was not the plan of God that the lake of fire be used for men.
It was created for the DEVIL and his angels.March 13, 2018 at 7:00 pm #821613
Peter’s name is not SATAN.
It was the satan in Peter that was being addressed.March 14, 2018 at 5:27 am #821614
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter,Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Jesus called Peter an adversary for being offensive with the thoughts from his own mind coming from his own heart.
15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man….21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
JESUS SAID unto PETER, he called PETER Satan, he called him adversary.
The Satan in Revelation likewise represents the evil thoughts and acts of men. The devil that was going to throw the followers of Christ in prison at the beginning of Revelation was also a MAN, a slanderous prince following his evil thoughts.
Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Jesus destroyed the old man, he destroyed the devil, the man that is carnally minded.
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
23 For the wages of sin is death
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
We have direct scripture that defines Satan and the devil as being the carnal mind of man that leads him to sin which leads him to death deserving.
What we do not have is Satan or the Devil being defined in scripture as a supernatural entity that influences man to sin. These are clear, plain scripture that folks continue to deny. People have added what is not there making the bible absurd.
Genesis makes it clear in the beginning that it is man’s OWN IMAGINATION that gets him into trouble.
5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth.
Deuteronomy and Chronicles makes it clear,
19 And it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst:
21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.
9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
60 Thou hast seen all their vengeance and all their imaginations against me.
61 Thou hast heard their reproach, O LORD, and all their imaginations against me;
Jeremiah makes it VERY clear
17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.
24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.
14 But have walked after the of their own heart, and after Baalim, which their fathers taught them:
8 Yet they obeyed not, nor inclined their ear, but walked every one in the imagination of their evil heart:
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
12 And ye have done worse than your fathers; for, behold, ye walk every one after the imagination of his evil heart, that they may not hearken unto me:
12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.
17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.
Luke 1:51 He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
There are no fallen angels or supernatural entities that influence man of whom God cast out of heaven.
There are MEN and their wicked imaginations who think that they can be like God, who declare themselves to be gods and demand to be worshiped as gods from heaven. God casts them down!
As previously said, our imagination is a great gift, it makes us individuals with our own thoughts, it makes us like our Creator being able to design and create. It is also a slanderer (devil) and an adversary (satan) being able to produce lies. It is clearly stated we walk after our OWN devices from our own imaginations.
Men have taken a handful of scriptures and twisted them with their own imagination creating a GREAT LIE.
Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others….14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one* new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby*:
Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
We are tossed to and fro carried about in a kingdom with false doctrines, the prince of this kingdom are cunning crafty men. We have men who lie about this VERY verse of 2:2, saying that the ruler is some supernatural entity that corrupts our hearts and minds, denying what it clearly tells us in verse 3 and 15, and the entirety of the bible!
Micha 2:11 If a man walking in the spirit and falsehood do lie, saying, I will prophesy unto thee of wine and of strong drink; he shall even be the prophet of this people.
1 Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written*, Eye hath not seen, nor* ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
RECALL 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
The doctrine of wicked supernatural entities cursing mankind was created out of self righteous imaginations of human beings, men who are denying the cause to their own corruption, making the bible absurd and God into a liar. Not only this, but also denying/distorting that which Jesus truly destroyed on the cross.March 14, 2018 at 6:08 am #821615
No Jesus was speaking to the adversary speaking through Peter.
Much of the work of Jesus was setting men free from the dominion of darkness.
You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power
and how he went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with himMarch 14, 2018 at 6:25 am #821616
Daniel 8:6 And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power. 7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand. 8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven. 9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. 10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered…..19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be. 20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. 22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. 23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. 24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. 25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. 26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.
Daniel and Revelation are not talking about a literal ram or dragon or beast of any kind, they are speaking of powerful men, kings/princes/presidents/rulers and their forces and false ideologies. The visions told in Daniel and Revelation are not talking about persons literally in heaven being cast literally from heaven either. We are told directly they are kings, they are MEN magnifying themselves in their hearts.Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.If we don’t properly identify the devil and his wiles how are we to stand against him? Waiting for a band of evil supernatural entities to be literally cast to earth set out to destroy is ridiculous. There is corruption throughout the world today and it will only get worse, and it is caused by MEN following their OWN imaginations.March 14, 2018 at 6:55 am #821617
Just then was a man in their synagogue with an unclean spirit. And he cried out
’What business do we have with each other, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us?
I know who you are-the Holy one of God!’
And Jesus rebuked him saying
’Be quiet and come out of him!’
Throwing him into convulsions, the unclean spirit cried out with a loud voice and came out of him.March 14, 2018 at 7:02 am #821618
As you say if you cannot identify the devil how can you stand up against him?
Put on the full armour of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. For our battle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly placesMarch 14, 2018 at 7:46 am #821619
”Jesus destroyed the old man, he destroyed the devil, the man that is carnally minded”
And when and where was this man destroyed?
Sounds like more foolish and desperate doctrinal justification to me.March 14, 2018 at 8:00 am #821620
For if we have become united to him in the likeness of his death,
certainly we shall also be in the likeness of his resurrection,
knowing this that our old self was crucified with him,
in order that our body of sin might be done away with,
so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
for he who has died is freed from sin.
Our bodies are of earth which is under the prince of darkness. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. Those who have submitted to baptism into Jesus Christ will be raised on the last day into new bodies, finally freeing them forever from demonic influence.
The words of Paul are directed only to the obedient.March 14, 2018 at 8:37 am #821621
But you did not learn Christ in this way, if indeed you have heard him and have been taught in him,
just as the truth is in Jesus, that in reference to your former way of life, you lay aside your old self,
which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth
Eph 4 .20f
The lusts of the god of this world that we inherited with our human bodies-Jas 1.14-15-battle with our minds in Christ Jesus.
The Spirit of Christ must be allowed to rule in our minds and retrain us in the ways of godliness.
The words of the brothers only relate to those who who have obeyed.March 14, 2018 at 8:41 am #821622
The verse specifically says that Jesus is talking to Peter, it does not say he is talking to another being within Peter, “he turned, and said unto Peter”
On top of this we are told, “for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.” showing at the end of the verse he is in FACT talking to Peter and identifying why he called Peter an adversary.
You can believe what you want but it cannot be proven as truth.
This fits perfectly with other words by Jesus 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
The above scripture actually proves your belief is delusional, absolutely false.
There is no scripture that defines an adversary unto man as being a wicked supernatural entity.
The sick, diseased, blind, mentally ill, those inflicted by unclean spirits were treated like less than dogs by their society, a society established through wicked men and wicked ideas. These people inflicted with unclean spirits were OPPRESSED by wicked men. By healing them they were no longer inflicted by the curses of which God said he would bring unto mankind and their generations. By healing them they would not suffer the same type of oppression they received from their community and their communities leaders. The history of how the mentally ill or deformed have been treated by wicked men is repulsive, they have no heart or understanding. They believed they were cursed by wicked entities and were wicked themselves. It is unfortunate to see people still believe in pagan ideas of which have perpetuated ignorance, spread fear, confusion, and the justification for pure cruelty.
Look up all the many verses that talk about people being oppressed they all show it to be of wicked men oppressing people. Devil means slanderer, and look up all of the scriptures that talk about wicked men slandering others!
Are you not slandering people at this moment Nick? You are accusing people of allowing themselves to be vessels of wicked supernatural entities, but in fact they are inflicted through the curses of God. God says that He makes men mad, he casts unclean spirits onto people, and he also HEALS chosen people of whom He gives mercy.
God brings blessings and cursings. Those cursings come in the form of unclean spirits that make people sick, diseased, blind, deaf, and mad.
God heals those he chooses to give mercy to
God delivers people from wicked men who oppress
Wicked men are never said to be vessels influenced to do wicked by supernatural entities
Wicked men we are repeatedly told are wicked because they follow their own imaginations
We do have wicked men who invent out of their own imaginations toxins in the form of such things as drugs, vaccines, and pesticides to name a few, of which cause and continue to cause people to go blind, deaf, deformed, mentally ill or diseased.
The bible nowhere defines Satan or Devil as supernatural entities that either inflict men with cursing or influence men to be wicked. SHOW ME a scripture that clearly defines this, and is not solely expressed through interpretation? It’s NOT THERE!!
What there is REPEATEDLY is man’s OWN IMAGINATION, his OWN MIND, his OWN HEART, which causes him to lie, deceive, cheat, invent evil…etc.. to be adversaries and slanderers/ satans and devils, to be like natural brute beasts like serpents and dragons.
This is not interpretation but a clear definition
to be carnally minded is death, him that had the power of death, that is, the devil.
devil=the man with the carnal mind.
14…that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed,
through death Jesus destroyed the devil=old man body of sin was crucified with Jesus
I have CLEAR DEFINITION, all you have Nick is a delusional contradicting interpretation,March 14, 2018 at 9:06 am #821623
Jesus does not call his brothers satan
He spoke to Peter as the Satan was in Peter.
Whenever the unclean spirits saw him , they would fall down before him and shout
’You are the son of God’
And he earnestly warned them not to tell who he was.
You must be logged in to reply to this topic.