The Ordinary Jesus Brigade

This topic contains 914 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by  GeneBalthrop 38 minutes ago.

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  • #835398
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Anthony…….THE GNOSTIC’S  at the time of the apostles believed and preached JESUS WAS A GOD, THAT HE CAME FROM THE PLORA OF THE GOD. TO STRAIGHTEN OUT WHAT THE FIRST GOD HAD DID,  YOU have completely changed what they taught.  YOU ARE LYING AND DISTORTING TRUTH. PLEASE PRODUCE YOU SOURCES THAT SURE IS NOT WHAT I HAVE READ.

    The Gnostic’s were the ANTICHRISTS OF THE FIRST CENTER MENTIONED BY JOHN. You have completely corrupted the truth , please go back and reread what the GNOSTIC’S taught at the time of the first century, not what they now teach.

     

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene

    #835399
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Anthony,

    Yes you can believe whatever you wish about God but is your faith useful to you?

    You can be gnostic if you choose but scripture is the source of revelation.

    Heb 11.6

    And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is,

    and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

    1cor 8.6

    yet for us there is but one God, from Whom are all things, and we exist for Him:

    and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we exist through him.

    #835400
     Jodi 
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    Good Morning Anthony and Dig4truth,

    Please read the below passages, it is you that are in a VERY tight spot.

    Hear the word of God an BELIEVE, apply scripture with scripture.

    APPLY Paul’s words with Paul’s words, as as Romans and Colossians speak of the same thing.

    Romans 8: 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    Colossians 1: 12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    The firstborn in verse 15 is the SAME firstborn of Romans 29, firstborn of among many brethren, where we are PARTAKERS of the inheritance, where we have been delivered, justified, glorified.  Paul is clearly speaking of the SAME firstborn in these 2 passages.

    Psalms 89:25 I will set his hand over the sea, his right hand over the rivers. 26 He will call out to me, ‘You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.’ 27 And I will appoint him to be my firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth. 28 I will maintain my love to him forever, and my covenant with him will never fail.

    Isaiah 55: 3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David. 4 Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people. 5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.

    He is appointed a firstborn, God will maintain a covenant with him that will never fail, even the sure mercies of David, this firstborn will GLORIFY THEE, which is also what we are told in Romans 8.

    NOW apply Acts 13 with Isaiah 55

    Acts 13: 29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. 30 But God raised him from the dead: 31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people. 32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the PROMISE which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath FULLFILLED the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will GIVE you the sure mercies of David.

    2 Samuel 22:51 He is the tower of salvation for his king: and sheweth mercy to his anointed, unto David, and to his seed for evermore.

    Psalms 18: 50 Great deliverance giveth he to his king; and sheweth mercy to his anointed, to David, and to his seed for evermore.

    Luke 1: 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Most High: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of HIS FATHER David:

    Matthew 20: 31 And the multitude rebuked them, that they should hold their peace: but they cried out the more, saying, Lord, have mercy on us, thou son of David.

    Matthew 21: 9 And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.

    Mark 11: 9 And they that went before, and they that followed, cried, Hosanna; Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord: 10 Blessed is the kingdom that cometh, the kingdom of our father David: Hosanna in the highest.

    Romans 1: 1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 which he PROMISED AFORE through his prophets in the holy scriptures, 3 concerning his Son, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 who was DECLARED TO BE the Son of God with power, ACCORDING to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead; even Jesus Christ our Lord, 5 through whom we received grace and apostleship, unto obedience of faith among all the nations, for his name’s sake;

    The SON of DAVID is DECLARED the Son of God ACCORDING to the Spirit of holiness. David’s Son was anointed with God’s Spirit without measure, ACCORDING to the Spirit of holiness David’s Son is declared the Son of God.

    Upon rising from the dead Jesus was GIVEN the mercies of David.

    Jesus we are told was a human and still is a human. Let’s establish this fact before reading Acts 17. 

    2 examples out of about 100 I could give,

    Man-Greek -anthropos -HUMAN

    1 Timothy 2: 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

    Matthew 26: 64 Jesus saith unto him,Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

    Now STUDY ACTS 17,

    Acts 17: 24 `God, who did make the world, and all things in it, this One, of heaven and of earth being Lord, in temples made with hands doth not dwell, 25 neither by the hands of men is He served — needing anything, He giving to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 He made also of one blood every nation of men, to dwell upon all the face of the earth — having ordained times before appointed, and the bounds of their dwellings

    Just absurd to say the MAN Jesus created the heavens and the earth and humans. God ordained times before appointed and by the BLOOD of a MAN was planned before time began to be SHED, so that we may be justified and joint heirs with the human raised firstborn receiving eternal life. 

    1 Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily WAS FOREORDAINED BEFORE the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and GAVE him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

    The Son of David who would be anointed, declared the Son of God and would shed his blood was a PLAN that existed before time, that through him we may receive eternal life.

    Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

    Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

    RECALL  Romans 8: 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    Isaiah 42: 1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. 9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

    There is no pre-existing Jesus, Isaiah tells you who JESUS is, not a pre-existing god, but a human servant who received the Spirit of Holiness.

    BACK to ACTS 17,

    27 to seek the Lord, if perhaps they did feel after Him and find, — though, indeed, He is not far from each one of us, 28 for in Him we live, and move, and are; as also certain of your poets have said: For of Him also we are offspring. 29 `Being, therefore, offspring of God, we ought not to think the Godhead to be like to gold, or silver, or stone, graving of art and device of man; 30 the times, indeed, therefore, of the ignorance God having overlooked, doth now command all men everywhere to reform, 31 because He did set a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness, BY A MAN whom He did ORDAIN, having given assurance to all, having raised him out of the dead.’

    A HUMAN was raised from the DEAD, A HUMAN was ORDAINED to judge the world, he will judge the world in righteousness.

    We are to be the OFFSPRING of God as Jesus became the offspring of God DECLARED a SON ACCORDING to the Spirit of Holiness, by the resurrection from the dead, made a firstborn of MANY BRETHREN, as we are justified and given glory through him.

    NOW back to Collosians,

    1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
    The Son is— of the FLESH of DAVID declared Son of God according to the Spirit of Holiness
    The kingdom of his dear Son isMark 11: 9 And they that went before, and they that followed, cried, Hosanna; Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord: 10 Blessed is the kingdom that cometh, the kingdom of our father David: Hosanna in the highest.
    Who was made in the image of God?

    Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    Genesis 9: 6 Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

    1Corinthians 11: 7 for a man, indeed, ought not to cover the head, being the image and glory of God,
    WHO are we TOLD is the image of God in Colossians 1???? THE HUMAN who SHED his blood, the lamb that was without spot or blemish that was RAISED from the dead, given eternal life, as such he is the FIRSTBORN of every creature.
    Galatians 6: 14 But God forbid* that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
    Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now…….29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
    18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
    The firstborn of the dead IN ALL THINGS he might have THE PREEMINENCE.
    Greek Proteuo —-  to be first, hold the first place
    TC and Dig4truth, the human resurrected from the dead that is the offspring of David, declared Son of God according to the Spirit, is IN ALL THINGS FIRST, he is the beginning. Not the beginning of a world where every creature exists in the bondage of corruption, but the beginning of the kingdom of God. Jesus is not the firstborn of a world of SIN and DEATH, he is the firstborn of righteousness and life. As we are TOLD that before TIME began God promised eternal life, he promised this firstborn of eternal life, the one who shed his blood who we are told directly was foreordained before the foundation of the world. We are told that God established the end before He created Genesis. Redemption for a world of sin and death existed before Genesis, and it was in God’s plan that as one man would bring sin and death, by one man righteousness and life would come. If it were not for the man who would shed his blood and bring redemption, Genesis would have never been created, all was created by God through and for the man who shed his blood as we are directly TOLD in Colossians 1.
    God and His WISDOM created the heavens and the earth, Jesus born the Son of man was anointed with wisdom and understanding.
    11 My son, do not despise the LORD’s discipline, and do not resent his rebuke, 12 because the LORD disciplines those he loves, as a father the son he delights in. 13 Blessed are those who find wisdom, those who gain understanding, 14 for she is more profitable than silver and yields better returns than gold. 15 She is more precious than rubies; nothing you desire can compare with her. 16 Long life is in her right hand; in her left hand are riches and honor. 17 Her ways are pleasant ways, and all her paths are peace. 18 She is a tree of life to those who take hold of her; those who hold her fast will be blessed. 19 By wisdom the LORD laid the earth’s foundations, by understanding he set the heavens in place; 20 by his knowledge the watery depths were divided, and the clouds let drop the dew. 21 My son, do not let wisdom and understanding out of your sight, preserve sound judgment and discretion; 22 they will be life for you, an ornament to grace your neck. 23 Then you will go on your way in safety, and your foot will not stumble. 24 When you lie down, you will not be afraid; when you lie down, your sleep will be sweet. 25 Have no fear of sudden disaster or of the ruin that overtakes the wicked, 26 for the LORD will be at your side and will keep your foot from being snared.
    Isaiah 42: 1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. 9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.
     Colossians 1:16for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;
    In HIM were all things created, HIM in this chapter we are told DIRECTLY is the man who shed his blood and was raised from the dead being appointed as FIRST over all creation of a NEW beginning.
    Given all the promises all the prophecies we know for a biblical FACT that God created heaven and earth to bring man into eternal life, to bring man into a kingdom that follows His will. Genesis was created THROUGH and FOR this PURPOSE, of which was held in a HUMAN being dying on the cross. 
    Heaven and earth was created by God’s wisdom through His foreknowledge of CHRIST, who would be the firstborn over every creature according to being raised from the dead “that in all things he might have the preeminence.”
    Not heaven and earth was created through the hands of a pre-existing son. To say such is to be IGNORANT or just in FULL denial of God’s word and His promises.
    Isaiah 11:2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on himthe Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of might, the Spirit of the knowledge and fear of the LORD— 3 and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or decide by what he hears with his ears; 4 but with righteousness he will judge the needy, with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked. 5 Righteousness will be his belt and faithfulness the sash around his waist. 6 The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them. 7 The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox. 8 The infant will play near the cobra’s den, and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest. 9 They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain, for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea. 
    Jesus is the new beginning the firstborn over all creatures. When he establishes the kingdom of God the animals will also be made new creatures, they will not harm or destroy for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the LORD.
    You guys don’t get it, take in Isaiah 11 and 42!
    Jesus was never the firstborn over a creation of THORNS, creatures that harm, sin and death, he did not make humans, he is a HUMAN who God gave the breath of life too, he is the firstborn over a new creation where the EARTH is FILLED with the knowledge of God. He first had to be born of the loins of David, he had to fulfill all righteousness and be filled with the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, he had to be sent out into the world to speak God’s word with authority, to heal, and to set captives free, to go to the cross becoming PERFECTED so that he could be the perfect sacrifice bringing redemption. Then God raised this perfecedt human from the dead giving him eternal life appointed him ruler over all the earth, giving him the mercies of David and David’s throne, as he is the Son of David, who God had promised such unto David, that God would be a Father to his son according to God’s Spirit.  
    He is a ruler over all the earth NOT because he was made the firstborn before Genesis was created, but BECAUSE he was a human tempted as we are tempted, and thus he can be a righteous judge unto us.
    #835401
     Dig4truth 
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    Jodi, did you answer why the Scripture says that Yeshua created everything?

    #835402
     Dig4truth 
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    Heb 1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.

    5 For to which of the angels did He ever say,

    “You are My Son,
    Today I have begotten You”?
    And again,

    “I will be a Father to Him
    And He shall be a Son to Me”?
    6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,

    “And let all the angels of God worship Him.”
    7 And of the angels He says,

    “Who makes His angels winds,
    And His ministers a flame of fire.”
    8 But of the Son He says,

    “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
    And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.
    9 “You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
    Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
    With the oil of gladness above Your companions.”
    10 And,

    You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
    And the heavens are the works of Your hands;
    11 They will perish, but You remain;
    And they all will become old like a garment,
    12 And like a mantle You will roll them up;
    Like a garment they will also be changed.
    But You are the same,
    And Your years will not come to an end.”
    13 But to which of the angels has He ever said,

    “Sit at My right hand,
    Until I make Your enemies
    A footstool for Your feet”?

    #835403
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Jodi….They simply do not get it sis. Very good post and explanations along with it, You have done all you could do. The called and chosen understandwhat you are saying, the rest never have had it in the first place,  their understanding is darkened.  If the Spirit of truth was in them they would be rejoicing in what you have written.

    Peace and love to you and yours. …….gene

    #835404
     Jodi 
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    Hi Anthony,

    Could you give me the scripture that says Jesus created everything because I can only find passages that say that the Father of Jesus created everything. In Colossians we are told that in Jesus heaven and earth was made, that it was made through him and for him, this is NOT the same thing as Jesus himself literally creating heaven and earth, and I guess you would have us believe that he did so for himself. 

    You speak as if you are ignorant to the use of the word “in” or “through”.. and you certainly ignore the words “for him”. According to you it should read,  through himself and for himself.

    16 For in him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created through him, and for him:

    So let’s apply scripture with scripture and understand verse 16 through other scriptures and within it’s own context, and then let’s apply it on your definition. 

    For in him (Jesus the man who brought redemption and forgiveness of sin, because he was perfected through that which he suffered, and then was raised firstborn of the dead into eternal life) were all things created by God, that are in heaven, and that are in the earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers, all things were created through the man who was foreordained before the foundation of the world but was manifested in these last times for us to bring redemption and eternal life, because God had promised before time began eternal life, and all things were created for the man who received eternal life who is the firstborn of the dead over every creature, so that God could be all in all, even the snake where he will no longer hurt or destroy and the child can play by the snake’s den. 

    You: For in a pre-existing god were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created through a pre-existing god, and for a pre-existing god, all that the pre-existing god created he did it through himself and for himself:

    Anthony, people do things, and create things all day, everyday through others and for others. It is fascinating to me that you want to act like this is not a FACT and common sense in the use of everyday language, also fascinating that you just want to ignore the many scriptures I gave you as if they do not apply. God created heaven and earth for the humans that He created, God first had to bring them into righteousness, of which He did through the HUMAN Jesus.

     

     

     

     

    #835405
     Jodi 
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    Hi Gene, Thank You! God Bless!

    #835406
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Dig4,

    If God has spoken to us in His Son why do you not listen to Him?

    Nstead you parrot the foolish understandings of the lost.

    #835407
     Jodi 
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    Hi Dig4truth,

    Surely Hebrews 1 is speaking of the human who God perfected, you know that human who sits at God’s right hand right now. You know the human who is able to be our judge and ruler over all because he was tempted just like we were tempted. You know that human who is returning to earth who has the Glory of the Father. You know, the human that God foreordained before the foundation of the world. You know, the human who was a servant that God placed His Spirit upon calling him to fulfill all righteousness.

    1 God, having of old time spoken unto the fathers in the prophets by divers portions and in divers manners, 2 hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds; and again, I will be to him a Father, And he shall be to me a Son? 6 And when he again bringeth in the firstborn into the world he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 

    Dig4truth, the Son here is a Son of David DECLARED a Son of God ACCORDING to the Spirit of Holiness. He became the Son of God at his anointing at the river where he was then sent out to SPEAK God’s word, PRIOR God’s word was spoken through the prophets as we are told in this chapter. This Son of Man who became the Son of God was APPOINTED heir of all things because he was tempted just like we were tempted and thus is a righteous judge. Through Jesus made of the flesh of David declared a Son of God according to the Spirit of Holiness God made the worlds, as God had promised before time began eternal life, and that PROMISE was held  the HUMAN who would SHED his blood bringing redemption, of which we are directly told was in FACT of God’s foreknowledge, because the human who would shed his blood to bring righteousness and life was His plan from before the beginning. ALL things were created through and for, NOT a pre-existing being but the firstborn of the dead, the firstborn as Paul puts it in Romans 8 the firstborn of many brethren. God we are told declared the end before the beginning, that end was the firstborn of the dead, that end was the end to sin and death and the beginning of redemption, righteousness and eternal life. God made the world through His knowledge of the END that would bring the new beginning. 

    Apply the word of God to the word of God! That is of course how truth is established.

    3 who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 having become by so much better than the angels, as he hath inherited a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, This day have I begotten thee?

    Acts 13 does not ring a bell to you Dig4truth?

    33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. 35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

    The Holy One here is the HUMAN who died for you, who God perfected through suffering as he went to the the cross for you.

    and again, I will be to him a Father, And he shall be to me a Son? 6 And when he again bringeth in the firstborn into the world he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels winds, And his ministers a flame a fire: 8 but of the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever; And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    His kingdom is his father David’s kingdom.

    2 Samuel 7: 12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son.

    Mark 11:9 And they that went before, and they that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna; Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord: 10 Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest.

    9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; Therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee With the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

    Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles….6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

    Matthew 3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him,Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of thy hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou continuest: And they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a mantle shalt thou roll them up, As a garment, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same, And thy years shall not fail.

    This is speaking of God the Father of Jesus, obviously because Jesus himself was CHANGED he was MORTAL and he died and then he was RAISED from the dead given glory, and MADE incorruptible.

    13 But of which of the angels hath he said at any time, Sit thou on my right hand, Till I make thine enemies the footstool of thy feet? 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to do service for the sake of them that shall inherit salvation?

    Who sits at God’s right hand?

    Luke 22:69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.

    Luke 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand

    Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. 

    1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    ALL THINGS were put under the MAN, the firstfruits of God’s Spirit. There is ONE TRUE GOD who exists with powers, He says,

    Psalms 82:3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. 4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked. 5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
    Isaiah 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
    Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
    Yes once again I will give the below passage,
    Isaiah 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another

     

    #835415
     t8 
    Participant
    • Topics started 896
    • Total replies 18,482

    Hey Nick and Jodi, can you deal with the Scripture that says Yeshua created everything? You both say that He didn’t, but Scripture says He did. In fact you both say that He didn’t exist before He was born. You need to defend your heretical position or just slip away.

    While some here say in error that God didn’t create the cosmos through the son, it is also wrong to say that Jesus created the cosmos. It was God who created all things THROUGH the son. This is clearly written. No excuses.

    #835416
     GeneBalthrop 
    Participant
    • Topics started 42
    • Total replies 16,491

    T8…..so you deny all the other scripture that show that God “himself” created the world and everything in it.  You hang up is on the word (through) , it has other meanings that could apply , like for instance ‘for the sake of’  or for the purpose of the resurected JESUS, and the resurected, who will inherit eternal life. That was his overall plan from the beginning of human creation, which he completed “through” Jesus by being “in” him.

    How can you ignore all the scriptures written in our bibles and possibly believe it was Jesus who created everything that existed from creation, or that God did what he did,  in the begining of creation through Jesus, when scripture says it was through  king David  whose lion he would come  into existence,  was not even born yet.  My O my, how many straight forward scriptures you must throw away,  to believe what you  prexistenese  believe.

     

    Why not make a list of scriptures that show that God alone and by himself created every thing, and compare them to what you believe. Hanging on to one scripture while ignoring the many others, is like batting a gnat and swollowing  a camel. T8 you do that with all kind of thing like Jesus was anointed at berth, no he was not, ask youself,  if he was anointed then,  why would he have to be again later by John the baptist at the Jordan, and after that be sent out into the world to preach the gospel of the kingdom of God.

    Tell us this T8….Luke 2:40  …And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, (like we all do after we’re born)  filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him” .

    Why does it say the ‘grace’ of God was upon him, but not the spirit of God?, because he did not have the spirit of God yet, he recieved that when he was baptized at the Jordan river by John. Then he became a spritual son of God, and then he was lead by the Spirit of GOD and sent out into the world first to be tempted and then to preach the gospel of the kingdom of God. He never preached to the world until he was sent, and that was after he was anointed with the spirit of God. Scripture clearly shows that. But you deny that and would have us believe He was already anointed at his berth, therefore having no need to be baptized latter.

    Peace and love to you and yours. …….gene

     

     

    #835418
     Jodi 
    Participant
    • Topics started 9
    • Total replies 1,450

    Hi t8,

    You:While some here say in error that God didn’t create the cosmos through the son, it is also wrong to say that Jesus created the cosmos. It was God who created all things THROUGH the son. This is clearly written. No excuses.

    Me: I don’t believe that I have heard a single person here say that God did not create the cosmos through the son. t8 are you even listening to what is being said??

    CLEARLY we are told that God created all things through the son, and for the son. No one here has argued against that. 

    The debate is about the word THROUGH and also the word FOR, not to mention the identity of the son who is being spoken of in Colossians 1. 

    You say that a pre-existing son created the heavens and earth through God, thus God created heaven and earth through a pre-existing son.

    this is how you think the verse should read,

    16 For through the pre-existing son, through God,  were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created through the pre-existing son through God, and for the pre-existing son:

    So according to you, when the pre-existing son was creating all things he was doing so for himself.

    I say that God created heaven and earth through and for Jesus, the man that was perfected going to the cross, “1 Col 1:14 In whom we have REDEMPTION through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:”

    Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    CLEARLY in the CONTEXT of verse 12-14 the WHO in verse 15 is speaking of the MAN who shed his blood and was raised from the dead, he is the image of the invisible God, and he this man raised from the dead, is the firstborn of every creature speaking of the new beginning, which makes complete sense if you are not ignorant knowing that God created man in His own image, if you are not ignorant to the fact that Jesus was made perfect through suffering, if you are not ignorant to the fact that Paul tells us Jesus is the firstborn of many brethren and verse 12, 13, and 14 is speaking about those brethren, if you are not ignorant to the biblical fact Jesus is the new beginning where earth itself and every creature on earth is also redeemed by Jesus, no more thorns or briers, no more creatures that harm or destroy, if you are not ignorant to the fact that this MAN was foreordained before the foundation of the world along with his brethren, if you are not ignorant to the biblical fact that God IS ALL KNOWING and He had a plan since before He made the worlds, which is why He said in Genesis he made man in His own image, and He gave this plan to the prophets. 

    The son being spoken of in the CONTEXT of this chapter is the MAN who SHED his blood as we are TOLD directly in this chapter. The son being spoken of we are told directly in this chapter is the firstborn of the dead, the first of eternal life, the firstborn of many brethren.

    Romans 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 

    The Son of God here is not only identified as the flesh of David, but is identified as a Son because he was anointed with God’s Spirit and because he was raised from the dead. Not only this but the identity of this Son is that which was PROMISED beforehand by the prophets. You just seem to choose to be ignorant of all this word of God t8, as you do not apply scripture with scripture. There I guess is no excuse for you. You want to narrowly define the word “through” in order to fit your doctrine fully denying the word of God not to mention choosing to avoid common sense to how a word is very often used.

    Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

    I am told that the Son of God is a perfect man, I am told that the man of the fruit of David’s loins is a Son of God according to the Spirit of Holiness. Jesus is NOT a son of God because he pre-existed as a human or as a god, or as some other sort of creature. Jesus is a Son of God because he was anointed by God with the full measure of God’s Spirit. When speaking of the Son we are reverted to the word of God given to the prophets.

    Many people on this forum IGNORE God’s word spoken to the prophets, they do not want to apply it, instead they SEEK for HINTS, for HIDDEN truth that then creates contradiction, tossing children to and fro with all sorts of doctrines. Reading scripture through God’s Spirit and understanding it correctly is about God opening the eyes of the BLIND so that they can see what is clearly written, the Son of God is a PERFECT man of the offspring of David who received upon his death David’s mercies. The Son of God is the HUMAN we are directly told returning among the clouds with the glory of the Father. Saying that God gives the Spirit so that they can discover hints and hidden truth, and other’s do not see their doctrine created by such because they do not have God’s Spirit to see it, is a complete joke.

    Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 3

    Acts 13:32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. 35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: 37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption. 38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

    ALL things were not made through and for the MAN that brings forgiveness of sins?

    All things are not justified through the man Jesus, the Anointed with God’s Spirit without measure who was perfected on earth through suffering? 

    All things, the earth and creatures great and small do not consist through a redemption brought to us through Christ, the man who shed his blood, and brought eternal life?

    Is Jesus our mighty master full of grace and truth because he pre-existed and created the world that then turned into sin and death. Is Jesus great because he pre-existed and then came down from heaven to be a man and die for us and save us from the world of sin and death? Is that what the bible tells us?

    Or are we told that the bread of life that came from heaven, that came from God was the FLESH of Jesus? Flesh that had been anointed at the river and then was SENT?

    Or does the bible tell us that God had a plan from the beginning, that He established the end before He even created the world, and that the end was actually a new beginning where the earth would come to be filled with the knowledge of God and God could be all in all? Does not everything that was created consist through this fact, that has been made possible THROUGH CHRIST, the anointed man who was perfected through suffering, and thus was for us the lamb without spot or blemish that could bring forth REDEMPTION, so that God could be all in all? In “him” all things consist, because “in the man Jesus”, “through the man Jesus” all the earth is redeemed. The bible tells us that Jesus is a righteous judge and thus our master, not because he pre-existed creating the world, but because he was a servant of the offspring of David who was FILLED with and CALLED to righteousness able to be a righteous judge because the Spirit of God was upon him. Through this calling, where God would hold his hand and keep him so that Jesus would follow God’s will to the cross, we are redeemed by his suffering on the cross that brought him into perfection. All things consist through this redemption, all things were created through and for this redemption that God brought through Christ, who is our righteous judge BECAUSE he suffered and was tempted just like we are. Jesus was NOT an ordinary man, he is the first human that was resurrected and appointed judge and ruler over all the earth so that he can bring forth God’s kingdom where God will be all in all. 

    Acts 17: 24 <strong>God, who did make the world, and all things in it, this One, of heaven and of earth being Lord, in temples made with hands doth not dwell, </strong>25 neither by the hands of men is He served -- needing anything<strong>, He giving to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 He made also of one blood every nation of men, to dwell upon all the face of the earth -- having ordained times before appointed, and the bounds of their dwellings</strong> -- 27 to seek the Lord, if perhaps they did feel after Him and find, -- though, indeed, He is not far from each one of us, <strong>28 for in Him we live, and move</strong>, and are; as also certain of your poets have said: For of Him also we are offspring. 29Being, therefore, offspring of God, we ought not to think the Godhead to be like to gold, or silver, or stone, graving of art and device of man; 30 the times, indeed, therefore, of the ignorance God having overlooked, doth now command all men everywhere to reform, 31 because He did set a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness, BY A MAN whom He did ORDAIN, having given assurance to all, having raised him out of the dead.’

     

    #835419
     Jodi 
    Participant
    • Topics started 9
    • Total replies 1,450

    To ALL,

    Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    preeminence — Proteup—–to be first, hold the first place

    Jesus is BEFORE Abraham, he is BEFORE David because in ALL things God made him first, AHEAD of them all, the firstborn of the dead.

    Jesus is NOT BEFORE them because he pre-existed, he is BEFORE them because he is the firstborn of many brethren. David called his son a master because he saw his day, he saw the resurrection. God our Father gave Jesus the birthright, the inheritance, the glory and the honor. As we are told ADAM was the son of God, he was created and given to rule over all the earth, but he sinned he received death. Jesus did not sin he was perfected on the cross and he was raised receiving the inheritance, made ruler over all the earth.

    Hebrews 1:1 In many parts, and many ways, God of old having spoken to the fathers in the prophets, 2 in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages; 3 who being the brightness of the glory, and the impress of His subsistence, bearing up also the all things by the saying of his mightthrough himself having made a cleansing of our sins, sat down at the right hand of the greatness in the highest,

    You know, the man of the flesh of David DECLARED a SON according to the Spirit of Holiness, by the ressurection of the dead. This is the Son being spoken of here as he BECAME so much better than the messengers INHERITING a more excellent name.

    4 having become so much better than the messengers, as he did inherit a more excellent name than they. 5 For to which of the messengers said He ever, My Son thou art — I to-day have begotten thee? and again, I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son?

    You know, the son of David, that God said He would be a Father to, who God said He would give the mercies of David to and David’s kingdom to for ever more. David called his son a master, not because he pre-existed and lived before him, but because he was perfected and was the lamb without spot or blemish bringing the redemption, where David died believing that he would also be raised from the dead.

    #835420
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 70,594

    Hi Jodi,

    Jesus Christ Jesus is Lord, of all, and by divine appointment.

    But he is only Master of his servants, who love all his words, and obey him.

     

     

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