The Man from heaven

This topic contains 189 replies, has 13 voices, and was last updated by  NickHassan 1 week, 6 days ago.

  • Author
    Posts
  • #13739
     Adam Pastor 
    Member
    • Topics started 0
    • Total replies 326

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 12 2006,07:42)
    Since when did
    “sent from God”
    have the same meaning as
    “sent from heaven”?

    God is not a synonym for heaven.


    Greetings Nick
    In Jewish writings, 'heaven' is indeed used as a synonym for 'GOD'

    For example, Matthew whose Gospel was more geared to a Jewish audience, rather used the term 'Kingdom of Heaven' as opposed to 'Kingdom of GOD'; although they mean the very same thing.

    Another example would be
    (Mat 21:25)  The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?

    'From heaven' is simply a synonym for 'From GOD'
    That is, how Christ's audience would have understood him.

    John's baptism didn't descend from Heaven … it came from GOD! In this context,
    'From heaven' means 'From GOD'

    Hence, when Christ spoke of himself as one 'from heaven', come down 'from heaven' or the true bread 'from heaven.';
    he was simply stating that he was 'from GOD', he was come from GOD, he was the true bread 'from GOD'.

    'From heaven' is a synonym for 'From GOD'
    There are many examples of this usage throughout Jewish writings including the Scriptures.

    #13746
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 67,949

    Quote (Sammo @ May 17 2006,12:58)
    I'm sorry, I didn't explain myself very well, and I hope I didn't come across as sarcastic. What I meant was that Jesus said he came down from heaven as true bread, as opposed to the manna that also came down from heaven (v31).

    So Jesus only came down from heaven in the same way that the manna came down from heaven – ie not literally, unless you can imagine that the manna literally floated down from the sky each day.


    Hi sammo,
    The word used in Jn 6 for “heaven”

    ouranos 3772

    is occasionally translated as “sky” or “air” but once again 90% of the time it is translated as the “heaven” we know as the throne of God.

    Surely you would not choose an unusual translation again just for verses you do not accept the straightforward understanding of?

    If you do why and when was he up in the sky?

    #13747
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 67,949

    Hi Adam,
    “Heaven” is not, and has never been a synonym for “God”.

    The words have entirely different meanings and to substitute them is to alter the Word of God and we do not do that.

    #13751
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 67,949

    ps
    If a word is a synonym then truth demands that it be consistently able to be substituted.
    So.
    How would Jn 1.1 read if “God” was substituted with “heaven”?
    Or
    If in the “our Father” if “heaven” was substituted with “God”?

    #13754
     Sammo 
    Member
    • Topics started 1
    • Total replies 234

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 17 2006,18:52)

    Quote (Sammo @ May 17 2006,12:58)
    I'm sorry, I didn't explain myself very well, and I hope I didn't come across as sarcastic. What I meant was that Jesus said he came down from heaven as true bread, as opposed to the manna that also came down from heaven (v31).

    So Jesus only came down from heaven in the same way that the manna came down from heaven – ie not literally, unless you can imagine that the manna literally floated down from the sky each day.


    Hi sammo,
    The word used in Jn 6 for “heaven”

    ouranos 3772

    is occasionally translated as “sky” or “air” but once again 90% of the time it is translated as the “heaven” we know as the throne of God.

    Surely you would not choose an unusual translation again just for verses you do not accept the straightforward understanding of?

    If you do why and when was he up in the sky?


    Hi Nick

    Completely not following what you mean – all I've quoted is the KJV, not as unusual translation. If you're talking about my reference to sky, then you want to discuss this with t8, not me, since that was his point.

    Either way, the point stands – was the manna literally in heaven before it came “from heaven”? In that case, why should Jesus have been?

    So you can't use v38 to prove that Jesus was literally in heaven before he was born.

    God bless

    #13755
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 67,949

    Hi sammo,
    Jn 6.31
    “They said therefore to him
    'What then do you do for a sign, that we may see and believe you? What work do you perform? Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written
    'He gave them bread out of heaven to eat'
    Jesus therefore said to them
    'Truly, truly I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which come down out of heaven and gives life to the world…..For I have come down out of heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of Him who sent me..”

    So Manna, the food of angels, came down from heaven
    and from the heavens
    from God and
    from Moses
    to the Israelites.

    Jesus uses their ploy to teach about himself.

    Jesus, the bread of life,
    was sent from heaven by the Father,
    came out of heaven as the Word of life,
    and men must eat of that true Word to live.

    #13803
     malcolm ferris 
    Member
    • Topics started 4
    • Total replies 928

    Quote (Sammo @ May 12 2006,00:32)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 30 2006,22:44)
    Hi,
    1Cor 15.45f
    “So also it is written
    'The first man, Adam, became a living soul'
    The last Adam became a lifegiving spirit.
    However the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
    The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. As to the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as to the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. And just as we have borne the image of the earthy we shall also bear the image of the heavenly”

    So Christ was first natural. He had a weak perishable body like us. He had to die and his seed was planted in the soil [v36, Jn 12.24]for him to be resurrected in new life, a life which has become a source of eternal life for us.

    He was not a man in heaven who came but a spirit of divine nature who was sent from heaven to come in flesh. He was not yet fully the man from heaven when he was born like us but is the man from heaven on his return to heaven and when he returns to earth.


    Hi Nick

    I would read those same verses and say that therefore Jesus didn't literally exist at all before he was born, because “the spiritual is not first, but the natural”.

    What you're saying is that before he was born, Jesus was a spirit of divine nature – yet Paul clearly says that Jesus “became a lifegiving spirit” when he was resurrected. The order that Paul gives is natural -> spirit, not spirit -> natural -> spirit.

    Peter says that Jesus “was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you” (1 Pet 1:20) – I don't see how you can be foreordained if you already exist.

    Sam


    Quote
    I would read those same verses and say that therefore Jesus didn't literally exist at all before he was born, because “the spiritual is not first, but the natural”.

    You would have to read that in correct context.
    He is speaking here of bodies, and in particular the glory of those bodies.
    And the context is as they relate to us humans, and the resurrection.
    If we were to take any other context and try to 'logic' it out we would have to also conclude therefore that God did not exist before anything natural was made.
    That doesn't quite pan out right.
    God is an eternal being, and even if you consider the meaning of the word 'God' which is – 'an object (or subject) of worship' so as to perhaps say that He existed as an eternal one but not God in this sense until He had made something to worship Him.
    Even in this sense you have to face the fact that He made heaven and the angelic hosts which are all celestial – spiritual, before He made any physical creation.
    In my humble opinion that is.

    #13804
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 67,949

    Quote (Adam Pastor @ May 17 2006,16:53)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 30 2006,22:44)
    Hi,
    1Cor 15.45f
    “So also it is written
    'The first man, Adam, became a living soul'
    The last Adam became a lifegiving spirit.
    However the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
    The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. As to the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as to the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. And just as we have borne the image of the earthy we shall also bear the image of the heavenly”

    So Christ was first natural. He had a weak perishable body like us. He had to die and his seed was planted in the soil [v36, Jn 12.24]for him to be resurrected in new life, a life which has become a source of eternal life for us.

    He was not a man in heaven who came but a spirit of divine nature who was sent from heaven to come in flesh. He was not yet fully the man from heaven when he was born like us but is the man from heaven on his return to heaven and when he returns to earth.


    Greetings Nick

    If Jesus was first “a spirit of divine nature who was sent from heaven to come in flesh,” to use your words,
    it would contradict the very point that Paul is making.

    Paul said “However the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual”.

    In other words, Paul simply has no concept of Jesus being something or someone else before being a man; he has no concept of Jesus being “a spirit of divine nature” before being conceived in the womb of Mary, his mother.

    To Paul, the man Jesus was a natural albeit sinless, supernaturally conceived human being right up to his death.
    Whereby after 3 days, GOD raised him from the dead, immortalized, glorified and exalted him, and made him,
    'a life-giving spirit'

    Hence, “first the natural; then the spiritual”


    Hi Adam,
    Paul speaks of those in the first resurrection.
    It is a resurrection of the body
    1Cor 15.42
    “So also with the resurrection from the dead. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body
    So also it is written
    'The first man, Adam, became a living soul'
    The last Adam became a life giving spirit.
    However the spiritual is not first, but the natural, then the spiritual.
    The first man is from the earth, earthy.
    The second man is from heaven”

    So speaking of the body the first man was of earth.
    All men are of earth including Christ.
    The natural is first for all “according to the flesh”.
    He died as we all do and his seed was planted and when he was raised and rose to heaven he had a new heavenly Body.

    The second man became a life giving spirit. Not 'was' but 'became'.
    When did he become a life giving Spirit?
    He only became a source of lifegiving Spirit for men from the time of pentecost, after his death and resurrection.
    He only became that source after he had been given a new body and became the man from heaven.
    The spiritual is second for him.

    And it is second for us when we receive of that Spirit and are later raised into our new body too.

    #21012
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 67,949

    more homework for dunno

    #22085
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 67,949

    Hi Adam Pastor and Sammo,
    According to the dictionary a SYNONYM is when different words have similar or identical meanings.
    Now, perhaps you have chosen the wrong word to describe what you mean here but in no way does
    “God ”
    and
    “heaven”
    Have identical or similar meanings.
    If so then the words could always be substituted.

    So what if we tried that substitution in
    Gen 1.8,
    ” God called the expanse heaven”
    Or any of the other times the individual words occur.

    #22086
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 67,949

    Hi Adam Pastor,
    Acts 22 6f
    6″(A)But it happened that as I was on my way, approaching Damascus about noontime, a very bright light suddenly flashed from heaven all around me,

    7and I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?'

    8″And I answered, 'Who are You, Lord?' And He said to me, 'I am (B)Jesus the Nazarene, whom you are persecuting.'

    9″And those who were with me Âsaw the light, to be sure, but (D)did not understand the voice of the One who was speaking to me.

    10″And I said, '(E)What shall I do, Lord?' And the Lord said to me, 'Get up and go on into Damascus, and there you will be told of all that has been appointed for you to do.'

    Jesus was in heaven. He appeared and spoke to Paul on earth in a spiritual form. Paul was certainly made personally aware of spiritual beings.

    #22087
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 67,949

    Hi Adam Pastor,
    Your words:
    “If Jesus was first “a spirit of divine nature who was sent from heaven to come in flesh,” to use your words,
    it would contradict the very point that Paul is making.

    Paul said “However the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual”.

    In other words, Paul simply has no concept of Jesus being something or someone else before being a man; he has no concept of Jesus being “a spirit of divine nature” before being conceived in the womb of Mary, his mother.

    To Paul, the man Jesus was a natural albeit sinless, supernaturally conceived human being right up to his death.
    Whereby after 3 days, GOD raised him from the dead, immortalized, glorified and exalted him, and made him,
    'a life-giving spirit'

    Hence, “first the natural; then the spiritual”

    The scripture in context is as shown here:
    1Cor 15
    42(A)So also is the resurrection of the dead It is sown (B)a perishable body, it is raised ©an imperishable body;

    43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in (D)glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;

    44it is sown a (E)natural body, it is raised a (F)spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

    45So also it is written, “The first (G)MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL ” The (H)last Adam became a (I)life-giving spirit.

    46However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.

    47The first man is (J)from the earth, (K)earthy; the second man is from heaven.

    48As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, (L)so also are those who are heavenly.

    49Just as we have (M)borne the image of the earthy, [a]we (N)will also bear the image of the heavenly.”

    So the single grain of wheat sown, Jesus[Jn 12.24f], produced a crop for God. The first fruits was Christ himself and then those in him are raised at the first resurrection.

    So these verses do not relate to the nature of the only begotten God who was with God in the beginning but only according to his flesh nature which he partook of in Mary.

    He became flesh for us to rescue us who are flesh, and the planting of his flesh in death, gave hope to all flesh who find life in him.

    #29359
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 67,949

    This is topical

    #32333
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 67,949

    Hi,
    Jesus is the man from heaven. He will only manifest fully as the man from heaven when he returns. He has a heavenly body now in heaven as flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom and when we are raised or taken we too will have put on the imperishable.
    He has ascended.
    He has descended.
    He will come again.
    Maranatha Lord Jesus.

    #32371
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 67,949

    Hi,
    Jn 3
    ” 11″Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony.

    12″If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

    13″No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.”

    So here Jesus speaks for himself and the Father with him. WE. Two witnesses.

    ” 14Jesus answered, “Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. 15You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. 18I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me. I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me.”

    He is a man, a son of Adam which means man.
    He is from heaven.
    He could have spoken about things of heaven.

Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 190 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2018 Heaven Net

or

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

or

Create Account