The Man from heaven

This topic contains 190 replies, has 13 voices, and was last updated by  NickHassan 6 months, 2 weeks ago.

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  • #13552
     Sammo 
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    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 12 2006,07:07)
    You confuse me.
    Why would you say he was a spirit of divine nature in one post and then deny it?


    Hi Nick

    Now I'm confused! Please quote my statements that you think contradict each other.

    #13553
     NickHassan 
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    Quote (Sammo @ May 12 2006,06:52)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 12 2006,02:55)
    His previous divine spiritual nature is not part of the equation. It was emptied out along with shedding his glory.

    It was housed by the natural body and later the spiritual body, and itself housed the Spirit of God, which was poured out to allow his followers to share in his body and the powers and graces he has.


    Personally, I think that's a bit of a stretch from 1 Corinthians 15. It's really simple – Jesus had a natural body when he was born, which became a spiritual body when he was resurrected. That Paul doesn't mention any kind of previous spirit-existence of Jesus in 1 Corinthians 15 seems like strong proof to me that Jesus didn't exist as a spirit before he was born.

    It would make things a lot clearer if you listed all the verses that describe this pre-birth spirit existence of Jesus, please.

    Sons are sons because they're born to their parents – I never yet met a son that didn't have a father, for instance. So where in the Bible do we read about Jesus being born to his father? (The start of the gospels, obviously). Does it really have to be any more complicated than that? Was Jesus a son before he was born?


    Hi sammo,
    If Jesus was resurrected into a different body than that which he died in then he was not resurrected at all.

    The sign of the resurrection, as with Jonah, is to be seen again by men as you were before you died or spent three days in a whale.

    Was Jonah in a new and different body when he was spewed onto land by a fish? That is the sign given by Jesus.

    If Jesus was in a new body and yet it was tattered and torn such that Thomas could pierce it with his fingers and hands then what point is there in having this new body?

    Our new body is going to be like the Man from heaven according to 1 Cor 15 so will we still have tattered and torn perishable bodies too?

    Scripture does not say so.It says he has, and we will have a new imperishable body.

    #13554
     NickHassan 
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    ooops sorry Sammo. I misread your post.

    #13555
     Sammo 
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    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 12 2006,07:07)
    1Jn 4.9f
    “By this we know the love of God was manifested in us, that God has
    SENT His only begotten Son
    so that we might live through him.
    In this is love, not that we loved God but that He loved us and
    SENT His Son..”
    Not a thought or a plan but He sent His Son into the world.

    Jn 8.42
    “I proceeded forth
    AND
    have come from God”


    “There was a man sent from God, whose name was John” (John 1:3). Did John pre-exist as a spirit being in heaven before he was born? (No.)

    “In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.” (1 John 4:9) Did Jesus pre-exist as a spirit being in heaven before he was born? Not on the basis of 1 John 4:9 or John 8:42.

    #13556
     NickHassan 
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    Quote (Sammo @ May 12 2006,07:17)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 12 2006,07:07)
    1Jn 4.9f
    “By this we know the love of God was manifested in us, that God has
    SENT His only begotten Son
    so that we might live through him.
    In this is love, not that we loved God but that He loved us and
    SENT His Son..”
    Not a thought or a plan but He sent His Son into the world.

    Jn 8.42
    “I proceeded forth
    AND
    have come from God”


    “There was a man sent from God, whose name was John” (John 1:3). Did John pre-exist as a spirit being in heaven before he was born? (No.)

    “In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.” (1 John 4:9) Did Jesus pre-exist as a spirit being in heaven before he was born? Not on the basis of 1 John 4:9 or John 8:42.


    Hi Sammo,

    John was “sent from God”

    Since when did
    “sent from God”
    have the same meaning as
    “sent from heaven”?

    God is not a synonym for heaven.
    All prophets are sent.

    Jer 1.7
    “But the Lord said to me
    'Do not say
    “I am a youth”
    because wherever I SEND you , you shall go…'”

    Ezek 2.3
    “He said to me
    'Son of man, I am SENDING you to the sons of Israel.'.”

    Two events are recorded in Jn 8.42
    The “proceeding forth” and the “coming from” God.
    Scripture is efficient with words and this is not a repetition as the words are separated by “and”.

    The “proceeding from” occurs before the “coming from”.

    #13557
     Sammo 
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    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 12 2006,07:42)
    Since when did
    “sent from God”
    have the same meaning as
    “sent from heaven”?


    Hi Nick

    Both 1 John 4:9 and John 8:42 both say that Jesus was sent from God, not that Jesus was sent from heaven. We can go through passages that say that Jesus was sent from heaven, but you should give them first!

    But if you want to be picky, since God is unquestionably in heaven, no, I don't see that much of a difference – neither involve anything literally coming down from heaven to earth.

    #13558
     NickHassan 
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    Quote (Sammo @ May 12 2006,08:03)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 12 2006,07:42)
    Since when did
    “sent from God”
    have the same meaning as
    “sent from heaven”?


    Hi Nick

    Both 1 John 4:9 and John 8:42 both say that Jesus was sent from God, not that Jesus was sent from heaven. We can go through passages that say that Jesus was sent from heaven, but you should give them first!

    But if you want to be picky, since God is unquestionably in heaven, no, I don't see that much of a difference – neither involve anything literally coming down from heaven to earth.


    Hi Sammo,
    It is not a case of being picky but rather

    protecting the integrity of the precious words of God
    by correctly comparing
    verse with verse,
    line with line and
    word with word.

    That is what God wants us to do,
    to show Him
    due respect.

    #13711
     NickHassan 
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    Quote (Sammo @ May 12 2006,08:03)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 12 2006,07:42)
    Since when did
    “sent from God”
    have the same meaning as
    “sent from heaven”?


    Hi Nick

    Both 1 John 4:9 and John 8:42 both say that Jesus was sent from God, not that Jesus was sent from heaven. We can go through passages that say that Jesus was sent from heaven, but you should give them first!

    But if you want to be picky, since God is unquestionably in heaven, no, I don't see that much of a difference – neither involve anything literally coming down from heaven to earth.


    Hi sammo,
    Of course Jesus was a prophet too so was sent from God as all prophets were. He is the Prophet that the woman at the well knew was going to be sent as prophesied by Moses.

    He was sent from heaven.
    He came from heaven.
    He descended from heaven where he had glory with his Father and the other heavenly beings.

    And he ascended again to whence he had come.

    #13714
     t8 
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    Amen, Nick.

    #13715
     t8 
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    Quote (Sammo @ May 13 2006,03:03)
    But if you want to be picky, since God is unquestionably in heaven, no, I don't see that much of a difference – neither involve anything literally coming down from heaven to earth.


    John 6:38-40
    For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Acts 1:11
    “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

    Notice that it uses the word “sky/universe”.

    #13725
     Sammo 
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    Quote (t8 @ May 17 2006,07:10)

    Quote (Sammo @ May 13 2006,03:03)
    But if you want to be picky, since God is unquestionably in heaven, no, I don't see that much of a difference – neither involve anything literally coming down from heaven to earth.


    John 6:38-40
    For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Acts 1:11
    “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

    Notice that it uses the word “sky/universe”.


    True, it's like the bread that floated down from heaven too, back in the days of Moses. (v31)

    #13730
     t8 
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    So Jesus will come on a frosty morning?
    He was taken up and he shall come back in like manner. It seems that you are being setup to believe reports that he is here or there, which scripture warns us about.

    If you do not believe the manner in which scripture reports the return of the messiah, then what manner do you think he will come?

    #13733
     Sammo 
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    I'm sorry, I didn't explain myself very well, and I hope I didn't come across as sarcastic. What I meant was that Jesus said he came down from heaven as true bread, as opposed to the manna that also came down from heaven (v31).

    So Jesus only came down from heaven in the same way that the manna came down from heaven – ie not literally, unless you can imagine that the manna literally floated down from the sky each day.

    #13734
     t8 
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    Well it is obvious that Jesus didn't float down from heaven, rather he was born through a woman. But Jesus was taken up at the resurrection and he will return in the same manner he left.

    Jesus return is not supported by the verses that say he was from heaven, but that he will return in the same manner he left the earth in the resurrection. I hope that you are not leading people to believe that the Christ can be found here or over there?

    Revelation 1:7
    Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.

    #13737
     Adam Pastor 
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    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 30 2006,22:44)
    Hi,
    1Cor 15.45f
    “So also it is written
    'The first man, Adam, became a living soul'
    The last Adam became a lifegiving spirit.
    However the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
    The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. As to the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as to the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. And just as we have borne the image of the earthy we shall also bear the image of the heavenly”

    So Christ was first natural. He had a weak perishable body like us. He had to die and his seed was planted in the soil [v36, Jn 12.24]for him to be resurrected in new life, a life which has become a source of eternal life for us.

    He was not a man in heaven who came but a spirit of divine nature who was sent from heaven to come in flesh. He was not yet fully the man from heaven when he was born like us but is the man from heaven on his return to heaven and when he returns to earth.


    Greetings Nick

    If Jesus was first “a spirit of divine nature who was sent from heaven to come in flesh,” to use your words,
    it would contradict the very point that Paul is making.

    Paul said “However the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual”.

    In other words, Paul simply has no concept of Jesus being something or someone else before being a man; he has no concept of Jesus being “a spirit of divine nature” before being conceived in the womb of Mary, his mother.

    To Paul, the man Jesus was a natural albeit sinless, supernaturally conceived human being right up to his death.
    Whereby after 3 days, GOD raised him from the dead, immortalized, glorified and exalted him, and made him,
    'a life-giving spirit'

    Hence, “first the natural; then the spiritual”

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