The Man from heaven

This topic contains 190 replies, has 13 voices, and was last updated by  NickHassan 6 months, 2 weeks ago.

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  • #13139
     NickHassan 
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    Hi,
    1Cor 15.45f
    “So also it is written
    'The first man, Adam, became a living soul'
    The last Adam became a lifegiving spirit.
    However the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
    The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. As to the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as to the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. And just as we have borne the image of the earthy we shall also bear the image of the heavenly”

    So Christ was first natural. He had a weak perishable body like us. He had to die and his seed was planted in the soil [v36, Jn 12.24]for him to be resurrected in new life, a life which has become a source of eternal life for us.

    He was not a man in heaven who came but a spirit of divine nature who was sent from heaven to come in flesh. He was not yet fully the man from heaven when he was born like us but is the man from heaven on his return to heaven and when he returns to earth.

    He is wearing now and he will be wearing then his imperishable new body which we too, in the first resurrection, will put on an image of.

    #13146
     malcolm ferris 
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    I CORINTHIANS 15:47
    The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

    The word Lord here is Kurios which is used througout as Lord in the New Testament. Translating it as “man” is not so good in my opinion…

    #13147
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Malcolm,
    Are there other manuscripts as there is no 'Lord' in NASB, only “man” -444?

    #13148
     malcolm ferris 
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    The word is Kurios in the greek, meaning Lord or master.

    #13149
     NickHassan 
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    Yes Malcolm,
    The word “lord” appears in some manuscripts.

    Indeed it is the Lord Jesus.

    #13367
     NickHassan 
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    Hi,
    I have had another look at 1 Cor 15.40 and found I was wrong on something
    “There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one and the glory of the earthly is another.”
    We know Christ has and we will have heavenly bodies. But who else has such bodies? the Sons of God? the angels?

    #13536
     NickHassan 
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    Hi ,
    1 Thess 1.9f
    “how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come”

    So Jesus is not the true God we worship and serve, but the son of that God.
    Jesus is to return AS the Son from heaven, to take us to be with him and rescue us from the world leaving those who suffer the wrath of God in the great tribulation.

    #13537
     Sammo 
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    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 30 2006,22:44)
    Hi,
    1Cor 15.45f
    “So also it is written
    'The first man, Adam, became a living soul'
    The last Adam became a lifegiving spirit.
    However the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
    The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. As to the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as to the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. And just as we have borne the image of the earthy we shall also bear the image of the heavenly”

    So Christ was first natural. He had a weak perishable body like us. He had to die and his seed was planted in the soil [v36, Jn 12.24]for him to be resurrected in new life, a life which has become a source of eternal life for us.

    He was not a man in heaven who came but a spirit of divine nature who was sent from heaven to come in flesh. He was not yet fully the man from heaven when he was born like us but is the man from heaven on his return to heaven and when he returns to earth.


    Hi Nick

    I would read those same verses and say that therefore Jesus didn't literally exist at all before he was born, because “the spiritual is not first, but the natural”.

    What you're saying is that before he was born, Jesus was a spirit of divine nature – yet Paul clearly says that Jesus “became a lifegiving spirit” when he was resurrected. The order that Paul gives is natural -> spirit, not spirit -> natural -> spirit.

    Peter says that Jesus “was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you” (1 Pet 1:20) – I don't see how you can be foreordained if you already exist.

    Sam

    #13539
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Sammo,
    The life giving Spirit of Christ was not poured aut among his followers until he was resurected and taken back to heaven. So while he walked the earth he was filled with that Spirit but was not yet the source of eternal life through that Spirit.
    Thus the man from heaven, the Son from heaven who became a life giving spirit.

    #13540
     NickHassan 
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    ps Jn 7.38f
    “'He who believes in me,as the sctripture said, from his innermost being will flow rivers of living water'
    But this he spoke of the Spirit, whom those in him were to receive;for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified”

    #13543
     NickHassan 
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    Hi sammo,
    So you say Jesus was a spirit of divine nature before he came in flesh? How long had such a spirit existed before coming?

    #13544
     NickHassan 
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    Hi sammo,
    Christ, as man and according to the flesh, was a natural man begotten from God through Adam and Mary. The natural came first, the second Adam. The natural man became a life giving spirit.

    His previous divine spiritual nature is not part of the equation. It was emptied out along with shedding his glory.

    It was housed by the natural body and later the spiritual body, and itself housed the Spirit of God, which was poured out to allow his followers to share in his body and the powers and graces he has.

    #13548
     Sammo 
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    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 12 2006,02:43)
    Hi sammo,
    So you say Jesus was a spirit of divine nature before he came in flesh? How long had such a spirit existed before coming?


    No, I'm saying that Jesus didn't exist at all before he was born. He had been part of the plan of God before he was born, but nothing more than that.

    #13550
     Sammo 
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    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 12 2006,02:55)
    His previous divine spiritual nature is not part of the equation. It was emptied out along with shedding his glory.

    It was housed by the natural body and later the spiritual body, and itself housed the Spirit of God, which was poured out to allow his followers to share in his body and the powers and graces he has.


    Personally, I think that's a bit of a stretch from 1 Corinthians 15. It's really simple – Jesus had a natural body when he was born, which became a spiritual body when he was resurrected. That Paul doesn't mention any kind of previous spirit-existence of Jesus in 1 Corinthians 15 seems like strong proof to me that Jesus didn't exist as a spirit before he was born.

    It would make things a lot clearer if you listed all the verses that describe this pre-birth spirit existence of Jesus, please.

    Sons are sons because they're born to their parents – I never yet met a son that didn't have a father, for instance. So where in the Bible do we read about Jesus being born to his father? (The start of the gospels, obviously). Does it really have to be any more complicated than that? Was Jesus a son before he was born?

    #13551
     NickHassan 
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    Hi sammo,
    Indeed the Son of God was sent into the world. He came in the flesh[1Jn 4.2]
    1Jn 4.9f
    “By this we know the love of God was manifested in us, that God has
    SENT His only begotten Son
    so that we might live through him.
    In this is love, not that we loved God but that He loved us and
    SENT His Son..”
    Not a thought or a plan but He sent His Son into the world.

    Jn 8.42
    “I proceeded forth
    AND
    have come from God”

    You confuse me.
    Why would you say he was a spirit of divine nature in one post and then deny it?

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