The Creations of Genesis 1 & 2 and John 1

This topic contains 199 replies, has 4 voices, and was last updated by  Truthcomber 1 month ago.

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  • #832288
     Truthcomber 
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    First the Ground Work:

    Is God a he or she or and invisible entity without gender?

    John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    Comment: What about “he” and “him” in John 1?

     

    Personal pronouns–the word of god personified.  The bible is written in poetic form.

     

     

     

    John 1

     

    There is no gender in many versions of John 1:2.

    http://biblehub.com/john/1-2.htm

    Look up the primary definition of  Houtos ( 3778) in the link below:  It is “it” and not “he”.

    http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/1-2.htm

    It primarily means “this”, and not “he”.

     

    My response:

    First the bible is a poetic book written with personalized pronouns and uses anthropomorphic words to describe Almighty God.

    http://biblehub.com/greek/3056.htm

    Definition: a word, speech, divine utterance, analogy.
    : a word (as embodying an idea), a statement, a speech

    NASB Translation
    another* (8), any (1), because* (7), deeds* (1), just (1), just* (1), once* (1), one (11), one* (6), other (2), others* (2), same (2), since* (3), so (1), some (7), some* (8), someone (1), such (1), there (1), these (6), these things (3), thing (1), things (4), third (1), this (22), this is what (1), those whom (1), until* (1), what (101), what* (2), whatever (5), whatever* (28), when (9), when* (3), where (1), where* (2), which (404), while* (3), who (158), whoever (4), whoever* (51), whom (218), whomever* (6), whose (38), why* (3).

    Comment: There is no definition that states that the logos is a person.

    Second

    There are parallels between the “word” and ‘spirit” which I will show you.

    Third

    From the author:

    “In 1 John 1:1 John used the neuter gender word (ho – “that which”) four times rather than (he – “who”) which is a masculine word. John Dobbs says that the four relative pronouns are a literary device to attract the attention of the readers. The neuter relative pronoun noun is used instead of the masculine…”

    Fourth

    Fourth, Debar in the OT has the same meaning as logos in the NT

     

    https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1ch/17/3/p0/t_conc_355003
    1.   speech, word, speaking, thing
    1.   speech
    2.   saying, utterance
    3.   word, words
    4.   business, occupation, acts, matter, case, something, manner (by extension)

    http://thelivingtruthfellowship.org/jtltf/bible-teachings/articles-by-topc/what-about-the-trinity/376-john-1-1

    22. The Greek and Hebrew languages assign genders to nouns, just as do Spanish, French, German and many other languages. Thus, every noun in Greek and Hebrew is assigned a gender. In Greek, there are masculine, feminine and neuter nouns, while in Hebrew there are only masculine and feminine. The origin of the gender is ancient, and does not seem to follow a specific pattern. In Hebrew, for example, altar (mizbeach) is masculine, while the menorah is feminine. An arrow (chets) and an ax (qardom) are masculine, while a sword (chereb) is feminine. A beetle (chargol) is masculine, while a bee (deborah) is feminine. In Greek, for example, logos is masculine, while rhema and euanggelion (gospel, good news) are neuter and biblos (book, scroll; from which we get “Bible”) and didache (doctrine or teaching) are feminine. “Spirit” (pneuma) is neuter, while “comforter” (parakletos) is masculine. A chain (halusis) is feminine, a rope (schoinion) is neuter, while a leather strap (imas) and a nail (helos) are masculine. When these words are translated into English, we use “it” because they are things. If someone asks, “Where is the chain,” we say “It is in the garage,” not “She is in the garage.” Thus, the point should be made that just because logos is masculine does not mean that the English pronoun “he” is the proper pronoun to use when associated with it. We assert that “it” is the proper pronoun to use in verses like John 1:2 and 3, etc.

    Comment: In Hebrew, there are only masculine and female gender for nouns.   The Septuagint translated the Hebrew into Greek. So the pronouns relating to God should be neuter in gender

     

     

    http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/videos/but-what-about-john-1-1

     

     

    #832289
     Truthcomber 
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    Hi All,


    1 Thessalonians 5:21
    Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

    Although I am quoting one article from Judaism, one from a Unitarian source,  and one from a JW source, they do have the truth as far as God being one person. I am only quoting good articles that reveal what I believe is truth.

    Mark 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: 33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God.

    34 Bible verses about No Other is God

    https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/No-Other-Is-God

    Does Elohim really mean a “plural oneness” or a “plurality of persons”?

    The best explanation, I believe, is from the below link.

    https://outreachjudaism.org/elohim-plural/

    The noun, Yahweh is always singular.  So, Elohim has to be likewise the singular form (plural intensive) to describe the true God. Elohim is used in plural form to describe the many false pagan Gods but only in singular form (plural intensive) to show majesty.

    https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/kjv/elohiym.html

    http://searchforbibletruths.blogspot.com/2010/02/does-elohim-really-mean-plural-oneness.html

    Comment: Plural of excellence and not of number refers to the Almighty.  Plural in number refers to beings that are not the Almighty as in man and the angels.  Although the article above is a JW article, it smacks of the truth.

    “Let us” in Genesis 1:26 is NOT the Trinity 

    http://www.bibleanswerstand.org/trinity.htm

    http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/videos/genesis-1-26


    Genesis 1:26
    And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he (God) them (Adam and Eve).


    Interlinear Bible
    :

    Genesis 1:26
    God    utter, make    man    an image    likeness


    http://biblehub.com/lexicon/genesis/1-27.htm


    Verse 27
    : God   create   mankind   an image   an image   God   create   male a female God create

    Comment: To comment on vs 27, is God both a male and female? No, he is neither. For God is invisible spirit.  On the other hand, his visible image, who is the lamb of God is a male.   To match “us” and “our” in verse 26 would be to match it with“male and female” in verse 27. That would make God both a male and female.  So “us” is a wrong word used in a wrong place.   In fact God is singular plural intensive (H430) noun.  What does this mean?  It means that when the greatest majesty of a thing or person is emphasized, it is used in this form. That is exactly what is happening here.  For verse 27 uses the pronoun “he” to describe God.   Here, the singular “he” in verse 27 agrees with the singular plural intensive God in verse 26, both describing as a singular being.  It is not referring to the pagan trinity as explained in my opening posts.  Can you find anywhere in biblical history where a monotheistic God is considered pagan?  On the hand, there is an plethora of historic evidence of the pagan origins of the trinity.

    To continue with the phrase, “make man in our image”, I feel it should be to “make man in my image” to provide cohesiveness.

    There is no “us” or “our” in the first part of Genesis 1:26 presented in the interlinear bible.  It could have very well been stated as “God said I will make man in my image and likeness”.  So, whether the pronouns should be translated as the plurals “us” and “our” or “I” and “my” are predicated on “God” being singular or plural.  And all reputable biblical scholars, even those that are Trinitarian admit that “God” here is singular, plural intensive.

    http://biblehub.com/lexicon/genesis/1-27.htm

    #832295
     NickHassan 
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    Hi TC,

    God is not called a PERSON in scripture.

    Men of foolish theology added that term.

    We should not add to scripture either.

    #832311
     Truthcomber 
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    Hi Nick,

    He is called Father, which is connotes a person.  He is not a human being or any of the creation neither, but the creator, an entity.    Further, God is not a “he”  either, but is personified in the bible as a such.  Don’t Nick pick, I mean nit pick (LOL).

    #832313
     NickHassan 
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    Hi TC,

    I do not think we should play in the sandpit of the theologians.

    A small addition can lead to a vast deception.

    #832314
     Ed J 
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    Hi Truthcomber,

    Are you affiliated with the JW org ?

    _____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #832318
     Truthcomber 
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    Hi Truthcomber,

    Are you affiliated with the JW org ?

    _____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    Not affiliate with any one.  JW have some strange believes like Christ was an archangel and brother of Lucifer.  I do find scriptures that contradict that

    #832319
     Truthcomber 
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    Nick wrote:

    I do not think we should play in the sandpit of the theologians.

    A small addition can lead to a vast deception.

     

    That is true.  Sorry

     

    #832320
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Tc,

    Who cares where you came from.

    We appreciate uyour contributions here and hope we can all learn together.

    #832321
     NickHassan 
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    Hi TC,

    As soon as folks start trying to fit our God into a box they show they do not fear Him.

    He is everything and the source of all things.

     

    Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

    #832323
     NickHassan 
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    Hi TC,

    We should not theorise about God

    .We should know Him.

     

    We should fellowship with the Father and the Son in the Spirit. 1 Jn 1.3 2 Jn 9.jn 14.23

    Leave the theorising to the lost. Let the dead bury the dead.

     

    #832324
     Truthcomber 
    Participant
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    Hi Nick,

    You:

    You say that Christ was anointed to be the Saviour before he was born.

    Then you quote prophetic words in support of this idea?

    The man Jesus was MADE both Lord and Christ.

     

    Me

    I did not say that Christ pre-existed in our reality.

     

    Mich 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

     Me:

    Anointed by God means called for a special purpose for God. Christ was anointed from eternity before he existed in our reality.

     

    Romans 4:17 (ASV) …even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were.

    Me: In the mind of God, things are already done when he foreordained them to be done.

     

    Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

     

    Me:

    This was the anointing by God from eternity, before Christ actually existed in our reality.

     

    You:

    Acts 2.36

    Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified,

    both Lord and CHRIST.

    He was not a man before he was conceived. He was not called Jesus till after his birth. He was not anointed till the Jordan.

    Me:

    Not True:

    John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    Rev 13:8 …the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

     

    Me:

    “He that came down from heaven” “hath ascended into heaven”. And he that “hath ascended into heaven” “is in heaven”.

    So the lamb was sent from the bosom of God as the preordained and anointed savior, slain, resurrected, ascended, and glorified all before the foundation of the earth in the mind of God. Notice the lamb that is in a glorified state stated in John 17:5 could not so in our reality. Why? Because then there would be a gap between the glory he had before the foundation of the world and when he was glorified after he was resurrected from the dead after the world was created.

     

    Nick:

    Do you not accept the prophetic word speaks of the future?

    Me: Of course, as I have just demonstrated.

     

     

    #832325
     Ed J 
    Participant
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    Hi Tc,

    Who cares where you came from.

    We appreciate uyour contributions here and hope we can all learn together.

    Yes Nick,

    Glad Truthcomber is here!

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #832326
     Truthcomber 
    Participant
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    Matt 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

    Me:

    A continuation from the last post:  The successful sacrifice of the Messiah was a reality in the mind of God before it happened.  So, the reality of the resurrection of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is a done deal before it will happen.   That is why God states that he is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.  He is the God of he living.

    #832328
     NickHassan 
    Participant
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    Hi TC,

    No, like Jesus they are alive in the Spirit of eternal life.

    They have passed over from death to life and when awoken they will sit at the wedding feast and be served by the Master.

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