T8 vs Lightenup

This topic contains 643 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  t8 4 days, 18 hours ago.

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  • #819222
     t8 
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    I already told you that you will find that the Word was the eternal life that was with the Father from the beginning

    God has no beginning. He precedes that. Simple.

    #819223
     t8 
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    Have you heard the saying: “flogging a dead horse”.

    It kind of means that no matter how hard you try to make a dead horse alive, it will remain dead. Similarly, a doctrine that fails scripture will not suddenly become relevant by repeating the same errors?

    #819233
     Lightenup 
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    @t8

    you said:

    The Word was with God. When you are with God, that generally means you are for him, in unity with him, agree with him, but it never means you are him.

    T8, please answer this question:

    Do you believe that God ALWAYS had His Word or was there a time when the Word was not?

    #819240
     t8 
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    The logos is an attribute of God and like all attributes, they are part of God and always have been and always will be. He changes not. The Word as another is spoken about in John 1:1 as being in the beginning. “The Word was WITH God”. This Word that was with God seem to be before creation itself and after God, so in the middle. There was God, then there was God and the Word, followed by creation coming from God through the Word.

    It also seems that Jesus is identified as that Word and we are also told that God created all things through the son, which may be a reference to him being the Word that God created all through. As a man, Jesus is also the mediator between God and man, again in the middle as a mediator. This makes him unique, but not God. He has first place in all things. God doesn’t become first because he delegates first and has always been. He is the source of the Son and the Word. All things, even the son, come from God. All things that are good that is. There is another god by whom things come, that is Satan. He is the father of lies and murder.

    So the Word was not always with God unless we want to believe there were two beings side by side. While you may not hold to that, your doctrine is even weirder than that as it suggests God was eternally pregnant with the other being. But we can rule that out because we know that there is one God, not two, or three. And there is no mention of God being pregnant anywhere in scripture. Further, we know for sure that this one true God is the Father and that Jesus is the one whom he sent, Jesus said it himself, so why even question this. We have the scriptures to guide us in these matters, so what is our excuse. Our own understanding and spirit will never figure God out. A person led by the Spirit will reject any words that come from one’s own spirit and understanding.

    #819242
     Lightenup 
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    @t8

    you said:

    The logos is an attribute of God and like all attributes, they are part of God and always have been and always will be. He changes not.

    My response:

    So, within your last few posts you have said that the logos is a part of God and has always been a part of God and has always been in unity with God. Is that correct? Please answer yes, or no, or I don’t know.

    #819288
     t8 
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    When the Logos was WITH God, this didn’t diminish the logos in God.

    When the Truth walked this Earth, this didn’t mean that God who is the Father didn’t have truth. Truth is part of his character.

    God creates and begats from his own nature and attributes. We can be truthful, but that doesn’t diminish truth in God.

    God is eternal. He shares his attributes and nature.

    Are you not aware that we can participate in divine nature? Does that make us God or does God become less divine as a result of that?

    #819289
     t8 
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    My answer is no.

    #819290
     t8 
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    I agree with two of your points but not necessarily this one.

    always been in unity with God

    It suggests that there is another being that has always been in unity with God.

    I have certain traits, characteristics, strengths, and weaknesses. I wouldn’t say they are in unity with me, but are me.

    #833370
     Lightenup 
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    Hi t8,

    Been a while since I went to this discussion of ours. I stopped by to find a post that I made about cell division and how a parent cell begets an offspring cell during mitosis which showed how two in number are only one in essence. Well I found it on page 9 of this discussion, dated  in 2012. I will quote part of what I said there:

    Look at the one cell with two things in it, that represents a cell with the potential to reproduce.
    The next picture of one cell with four things in it represents a cell that is in the first phase of reproducing.
    The third and fourth picture of one cell shows the cell in the third and fourth phase of reproducing.
    The last picture shows the begettal of the reproduction. It shows a second cell exactly like the first cell. The two cells represent a first cell and a second cell (a father cell and a son cell). The father cell is exactly like the son cell in nature and attributes and identity-both are identified as the same type of cell except that one is father and one is from the father, that one is the son.

    http://heavennet.net/forums/topic/t8-vs-lightenup/page/9/

    The reason that I bring that up tonight is because I was watching this YouTube video where this guy said that God gave him a revelation about a cell dividing into two cells representing the Father and the Son. Check it out at 6:42 on the timeline. Coincidence??

    #833482
     t8 
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    Been a while since I went to this discussion of ours. I stopped by to find a post that I made about cell division and how a parent cell begets an offspring cell during mitosis which showed how two in number are only one in essence. Well I found it on page 9 of this discussion, dated in 2012. I will quote part of what I said there:

    And one cell came from the other. Both are not the same age so to speak. If from the original cell comes another, then you could say that cell is the first-born. Obviously there is a parallel with God who is not only spirit, but the Father of all spirits. Thus, of all the other spirits, there had to be one who was first besides the original. The prototype.

    #833540
     Lightenup 
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    @t8

    An eternal prototype cannot become replicated into something with the same essence because the significant ‘eternalness’ within the prototype’s essence would be completely impossible to replicate. An eternal prototype can however begat another of the same eternal essence if the one begotten was also eternal and had the exact essence of the other…and was always within the one who begat before he himself was begotten. That would be a Father/Son relationship…two in number, one in essence. One unbegotten, the other begotten. The terms “unbegotten” and “begotten” merely reflect position, not essence.

    With the two cell analogy…if eternal nature was paramount for the first cell to be the first cell, then the other cell within it would also have to have the eternal nature in order to be an identical cell in essence to the first. Therefore the first cell always had the second cell within it before begetting it.

    Hebrews 1:3

    The Son is the radiance of his glory and the exact representation of his essence, and he sustains all things by his powerful word, and so when he had accomplished cleansing for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

    What you describe as the Son is NOT the EXACT representation of the Father’s eternal essence but indeed much different than the Father’s eternal essence. That goes against Hebrews 1:3.

    #833638
     t8 
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    The first I am talking about is the first spirit to be with God. God is not first in the sense that he is eternal or infinite, so he is greater than first, second, third, and everything else. But someone had to be first with God right? Jesus is that first born. He was with God in the beginning. The first born son. The Word. The prototype that all other sons come from.

    #833664
     Lightenup 
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    The first One to be with God was the exact same type as God. Therefore, the first One to be with God could not be a prototype. A son, btw is not a type of essence, it is a type of relationship. When a son is an only begotten son, then he is not only the first son but also the last son. All others designated as “son” are sons in another sense.

    Once again:

    Hebrews 1:3

    The Son is the radiance of his glory and the exact representation of his essence, and he sustains all things by his powerful word, and so when he had accomplished cleansing for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

     

    #833668
     t8 
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    You are correct that he has to be like God if he came from God. He has divine nature for sure, and we both agree that he emptied himself and came in the flesh and lived as a human.

    I will address your other points soon. Got some errands to run.

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