T8 vs Lightenup

This topic contains 637 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of t8 t8 3 days, 19 hours ago.

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  • #818971
    Profile photo of Lightenup Lightenup 
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    @t8

    I noticed that you seem to be unsure that Jesus is the Word of God from what you said here and I noticed that you did not understand what the early church father is saying regarding the Son of God. I would like to help you out here in these regards…

    This is what you said:

    if Jesus is the Word that was with God etc, this does not make him God. Saying these things does not prove LU’s position even if these points were/are correct. The early Church fathers (pre-Nicene) did not believe Jesus was God, but the Word and that Word was in God as an attribute of God, but was expressed as the first work of the Father. Tatian said this for example:

    God was in the beginning, but the beginning, we have been taught, is the power of the Word. For the Lord of the universe, who is Himself the necessary basis of all being, inasmuch as no creature was yet in existence, was alone, but inasmuch as He was all powerful, Himself the necessary ground of things visible and invisible, with Him were all things; with Him, by Word-power, the Word himself also, who was in Him, subsists. And by His simple will the Word sprang forth, and the Word, not coming forth in vain, became the firstbegotten work of the Father . Him [the Word] we know to be the Beginning of the world (cf. Rev. 3:14). But He came into being by participation, not by cutting off, for what is cut off is separated from the original substance, but that which comes by participation, making its choice of function, does not render him deficient from whom it is taken. For just as from one torch many fires are lighted, but the light of the first torch is not lessened by the kindling of many torches, so the Word, coming forth from the Word-Power of the Father, has not divested of the Word-Power Him who begat Him

    You say “if” Jesus is the word that was with God. Are you unsure? Please read this:

    Rev. 19 11And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

    The author that you quoted said this, “the Word himself also, who was in Him,” please note that the author who said the Lord of the universe was alone, i.e. not accompanied by creation, and while He was alone, He had the Word HIMSELF in Him. The author is making a point of saying that before creation, the Word was himself (as opposed to ‘itself’) IN HIM.  The Word Himself was in God and at some point before creation, was begotten from Him. See the words that I have made red in what you were quoting. This is exactly what I have been saying also. The Word is a person, not an attribute as you say, and that this person was existing within the Father before He was begotten from the Father. Let your own quoted words teach you.

    #819068
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
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    Yes I do believe he is the Word of God that was with God. But I am open to a different understanding because I would like to think I am teachable and can accept a teaching if proven by scripture.

    #819069
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
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    The author that you quoted said this, “the Word himself also, who was in Him,” please note that the author who said the Lord of the universe was alone, i.e. not accompanied by creation, and while He was alone, He had the Word HIMSELF in Him. The author is making a point of saying that before creation, the Word was himself (as opposed to ‘itself’) IN HIM.

    The logos was and is an attribute of God just as wisdom, life, light, and truth are. The fact that Jesus is those things show that he was begotten of God himself and is the expression of the invisible God. It doesn’t make him God, but of God.

    Likewise I believe each one of us who is begotten is also born of him and will shine certain attributes of God. We get a name that is given to us that only we and God know. Names are important because they describe and title us and who we are. While we may call our kids with a name like Grace because we like the sound of it or in honour of another person, that doesn’t make Grace God just because grace is in God. If God called someone Grace, then it is because he begat and personified that particular attribute of himself in that person. Likewise we see many of the disciples including Paul being given new names that probably reflected who they were to become.

    #819074
    Profile photo of Lightenup Lightenup 
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    @t8

    You seem to believe that attributes, when begotten of God become living entites who are referred to as sons of God. You seem to believe that the difference between Jesus and all the other sons of God is that he was the first to be begotten before all the other sons. You seem to say that it was the act of ‘begetting’ that made him a son. Is that correct?

    I believe that the Son of God was always a living entity even before He was begotten. You seem to say that the Son of God became a living entity AFTER he was begotten.

    Here is something to think about…even you and I were living entities for about 9 months BEFORE we were begotten (born) from the womb, t8. You still do not understand the term ‘begotten.’ Begotten does not mean that something begins to exist as if it did not exist n a living way before it was begotten.

    As I said in another thread, There was never a time when the Son was not. That is a big difference between created beings as sons and Jesus as a son. Regarding created sons, there WAS a time when the created sons were NOT.

    1 John 1 tells us that even from the beginning, Jesus was the eternal life with God. That alone goes against your view if you believe there was a time when Jesus became a living entity, and before that he did not exist in a living way.

    Also, you said:

    The logos was and is an attribute of God…

    Jesus is not just a word of God or a bunch of attributes of God that became alive and called a son. Jesus is the Word ‘of life’ and that life was eternally with the Father.

    The Word (logos) of life:

    1 John 1What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life2and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us3what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.

    I really would like to know how differently you would think of Jesus if you believed that there never was a time when the son was NOT. That really is the difference between you and I.

    #819081
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
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    You seem to believe that attributes, when begotten of God become living entites who are referred to as sons of God.

    When God creates and begats, from what and where do these living creatures come from. They come from him and he is living and has attributes. Of course he shares his nature and he shares his attributes. That is obvious. And he gives each a measure that we are responsible for. Ask yourself, does God create living beings that have attributes that are not of him? The truth is the lack of godly attributes is due to our fallen nature. Dod commanded Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply. We seem to have got the second part right, but the first has suffered due to our fallen nature.

    God created man in his own image. So if we are a reflection of him, then what is it that God is? He is love, he is wise, he creates order out of chaos. Some of us have a stronger sense of truth, justice, charity, joy, etc than others. Did we come up with these attributes ourselves or were they imputed by God. Even as a fallen race, we still show these attributes in differing measures. We are not all the same, but are a different combination of attributes that originally came from God. Our names are meant to reflect that which we are. A name known to us and God.

    To the one who is victorious, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give that person a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to the one who receives it.

    #819082
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
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    I believe that the Son of God was always a living entity even before He was begotten. You seem to say that the Son of God became a living entity AFTER he was begotten.

    The Word was God or an attribute of God, then it was WITH God. Then God created all things through him.

    #819083
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
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    There was never a time when the Son was not.

    Scripture and verse please.

    #819084
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
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    1 John 1 tells us that even from the beginning, Jesus was the eternal life with God.

    From the first fire another was produced. And that second fire will never go out. That is pretty much how the early fathers put it. They did not say that the second fire burned for all eternity, but that it came from the first with no mention of the second being temporary.

    #819085
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
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    Jesus is not just a word of God or a bunch of attributes of God that became alive and called a son. Jesus is the Word ‘of life’ and that life was eternally with the Father.

    The Word that came from God would naturally have the attributes of God himself. For where else does the Word with God come from? The early fathers worded it as the first work of God. Whereas you would disagree with them and say not the first, because it was always like this.

    This notion of yours suggests two Gods side by side and in unity. Two sources because they both existed together with them not ever not existing together. But for us, there is one God the Father. That is what we/us fundamentally believe. Your religion on who the one true God is different to what we believe. You have a different gospel and teaching on who God is. Yours is but one divergent among many other religions and paths. The wide path caters for all that is not true.

    #819180
    Profile photo of Lightenup Lightenup 
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    t8, you said: From the first fire another was produced.

    This is not taught in the Bible and I don’t think that church father teaches this either. I don’t think you understand what they are saying about this. You have missed the meaning if you think that the Word was a first work. The begetting of the word was the first work. The Word already was himself, within the Father before the begetting.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    #819181
    Profile photo of Lightenup Lightenup 
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    t8 you said:

    This notion of yours suggests two Gods side by side and in unity. Two sources because they both existed together with them not ever not existing together. But for us, there is one God the Father. That is what we/us fundamentally believe. Your religion on who the one true God is different to what we believe. You have a different gospel and teaching on who God is. Yours is but one divergent among many other religions and paths. The wide path caters for all that is not true.

    I do not suggest two Gods side by side and in unity. I believe that there are two members within the unity of God as one God unity together with their Spirit. One member is the God of gods and the other member is the Lord of lords. The Father is the source because He is the One who initiates the activity according to His will. The Son always aligns Himself with His Father’s will. He does this because He is a perfect son, not because He is unable in anyway.

    t8, according to you , when did the Word and God the Father become one? Please use scripture if possible.

    #819182
    Profile photo of Lightenup Lightenup 
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    t8, you asked:

    Scripture and verse please.

    I already told you that you will find that the Word was the eternal life that was with the Father from the beginning in 1 John 1:1-3.

    #819219
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
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    The Word already was himself, within the Father before the begetting.

    Commonly known as an attribute of God, not another person or being.

    This eternal being inside the womb of God for all eternity past is not taught anywhere.

    Are you not aware that the head of Christ is God, the head of the woman is the man, and the head of the man is Christ.

    If Christ or the Word lived as a different being inside God, then did man live inside Christ, and was Eve in Adam?

    Well they may have come from such, but Eve was not a living being inside Adam, but came from him at the appointed time.

    The Word that was in God and still is in God that was WITH God, is not God himself, but is WITH him.

    Further, scripture clearly teaches us who the one true God is and the one whom he has sent. You disagree with this, but you are entitled to disagree.

    #819220
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
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    I do not suggest two Gods side by side and in unity. I believe that there are two members within the unity of God as one God unity together with their Spirit.

    But in your previous post you suggest that the Word was an unborn living being in his own right. An eternal fetus or other such description.

    #819221
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
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    t8, according to you , when did the Word and God the Father become one? Please use scripture if possible.

    The Word was with God. When you are with God, that generally means you are for him, in unity with him, agree with him, but it never means you are him.

    Scripture teaches us that Jesus is now back with God in the glory he had with him before creation. And when he returns, he has a name written on him, “The Word of God”.

    If you had a good grasp of the English language, you would know that being OF GOd is a sure way to say you are NOT God.

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