T8 vs Lightenup

This topic contains 614 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of t8 t8 3 days, 3 hours ago.

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  • #344999
    Profile photo of Lightenup Lightenup 
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    t8
    you said:

    Quote
    e.g., For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son….
    t8: For the Father so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son….
    kathi: For the Father and Son so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son….

    Who is right in the example above.

    But Kathi wouldn't say that. I have said over and over that context tells us if “God” or “Jehovah” or “Lord” mean one of the persons within the unity or the unity in general.

    I would say the exact same thing as you there, t8.

    #345000
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
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    Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2012,14:17)
    t8,
    Where does the Bible say that He is one being? A unity takes singular personal pronouns, there are several examples, the church is a 'she' for example.


    For us there is one God the Father.
    If you consider the Father is a being, then yes he is one being.

    If you prefer I will use the word identity.

    The Father is one identity. No one else is the Heavenly Father.

    For US there is one God, the Father.

    #345001
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
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    Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2012,14:23)
    t8
    you said:

    Quote
    e.g., For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son….
    t8: For the Father so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son….
    kathi: For the Father and Son so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son….

    Who is right in the example above.

    But Kathi wouldn't say that. I have said over and over that context tells us if “God” or “Jehovah” or “Lord” mean one of the persons within the unity or the unity in general.

    I would say the exact same thing as you there, t8.


    Please answer those 2 questions.

    Do not be afraid to answer them.

    If you are right you have nothing to fear by being honest.

    If we take say 10 random scriptures with the word GOd in them, whose understanding will break the verses and whose will not.

    Please answer. Feel free to take 10 random verses from the NT using biblegateway.com or other service.

    #345002
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
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    Kathi, you clearly teach that God is two.
    That is sad. And you do not even try to deny it.
    Even though you are wrong, at least you are honest about this and are not being deceptive.

    I believe that God is one. He is exclusively the Father.
    You believe that God is two. They are the Father and the Son.

    When we push very hard in the wrong direction, God can eventually allow us to go there and believe the deception as payment for rejecting the truth.

    The first commandment is the most important.
    And what is the outcome of those who break the commandments with no repentance.

    #345003
    Profile photo of Lightenup Lightenup 
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    Quote (t8 @ July 31 2012,20:08)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2012,14:17)
    t8,
    Where does the Bible say that He is one being? A unity takes singular personal pronouns, there are several examples, the church is a 'she' for example.


    For us there is one God the Father.
    If you consider the Father is a being, then yes he is one being.

    If you prefer I will use the word identity.

    The Father is one identity. No one else is the Heavenly Father.

    For US there is one God, the Father.


    t8,
    How many beings/identities are for us as God and Lord in 1 Cor 8:6?

    #345004
    Profile photo of Lightenup Lightenup 
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    Quote (Lightenup @ July 31 2012,19:16)
    t8,
    you said:

    Quote

    It doesn't say one LORD Jehovah Yeshua.

    Yes it does…you are in denial my friend. See the Aramaic Bible of Plain English on the Bible.cc site here:
    http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/8-6.htm

    There are several more examples of the Aramaic manuscripts clearly calling Jesus the “LORD Jehovah Yeshua.” Would you like to see them?


    t8,
    Did you look at the link and see that the translation that I specified, Jesus is called the LORD Jehovah Yeshua?

    Would you like to see the many other examples of the same thing? IF you don't then I question your desire to learn. Would you be willing to look at them??

    #345005
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
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    Please answer my 2 questions.

    As for your last question, there is one who is God and the other who is Lord.
    There are 2 being referred to. God and Lord.
    The Father is God and Jesus is Lord.

    One person/identity per title.

    #345006
    Profile photo of Lightenup Lightenup 
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    Quote (t8 @ July 31 2012,20:37)
    Please answer my 2 questions.

    As for your last question, there is one who is God and the other who is Lord.
    There are 2 being referred to. God and Lord.
    The Father is God and Jesus is Lord.

    One person/identity per title.


    Yes, t8, I agree that Paul is teaching that TWO BEINGS are for us as God and Lord and that the Father is God and Jesus is Lord.

    This is the foundational belief…there are TWO persons who are our God and Lord.

    I'm not sure what two questions that you are referring to. Would you please bump them or specify them again?

    #345007
    Profile photo of Lightenup Lightenup 
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    t8,
    you said:

    Quote
    Kathi, you clearly teach that God is two.

    I teach that our God and Lord are two. The Lord is the only begotten God.

    #345008
    Profile photo of Lightenup Lightenup 
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    Quote (t8 @ July 31 2012,19:11)
    Kathi, I have a couple of must-answer questions in bold below.

    I say THE God is exclusively THE Father.
    You say that God is the Father and Son.

    Excluding all instances of God/theos that is applied to men, angels, Satan, idols, etc, when the word God is mentioned in scripture, whose understanding breaks the scripture and whose does not.

    e.g., For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son….
    t8: For the Father so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son….
    kathi: For the Father and Son so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son….

    Who is right in the example above.
    Who one is right in all other God scriptures excluding as I said other identities such as angels and men etc.

    For assistance in answering the second question, here is a page that lists a number of random scriptures with the world God in them. You can apply your understanding of God to see if your understanding works or breaks these scriptures.
    http://heavennet.net/writings/100-indisputable-proof-verses/

    I look forward to your honest answers.

    And I should mention that should any of us fail to answer a question or purposefully avoid answering a question, then because such activity nullifies the power that the Hot Seat Forum has, the result should be that discussion opens up for others so they can voice their disgust. Hopefully it doesn't come to that.


    Ok t8, I found your two questions.

    I commented on the first one by saying that I would not say what you assumed I would say but would say the same as you, therefore we are in agreement here.

    Number 2 question:

    Quote
    Who one is right in all other God scriptures excluding as I said other identities such as angels and men etc.

    Since you assumed me incorrectly in the first question, then you show that you do not understand me when I say that context tells us if the titles “God, YHWH/Jehovah, LORD, or Lord” means the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, or the unity in general. I will go through all your list and tell you who I think is being referred to. Bring 'em on! Hopefully that will put an end to your confusion and realize that your 'test' is faulty. I will start this probably in the next post.

    #345009
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
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    Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2012,15:43)
    t8,
    you said:

    Quote
    Kathi, you clearly teach that God is two.

    I teach that our God and Lord are two. The Lord is the only begotten God.


    OK, so no problem there.
    God is the Father.
    God made Jesus, Lord.

    Sorted.

    Now the only outstanding point is that both the Father and Jesus are YHWH.

    Is this correct.

    #345010
    Profile photo of Lightenup Lightenup 
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    t8,
    Here is your list of scriptures. I will tell you who is being spoken about, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, or the Unity in general of both the Father and Son together with their Spirit.
    After I do this, will you appreciate all the time that this is going to take me? I may split these up in several posts. I'll see how it goes, but I will address each passage. I will be using the Aramaic Bible in Plain English.

    Matthew 27:46
    And toward the ninth hour Yeshua cried with a loud voice and he said, “Oh God, oh God! Why have you forsaken me?”
    God is the Father here.

    Mark 1:24
    And he said, “What business do we have with you, Yeshua the Nazarene? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are, The Holy One of God.”
    God is the Father here.

    Mark 10:18
    Yeshua said to him, “Why do you call me good? There is no one good but The One God.”
    I would say this is the Unity.

    Mark 15:34
    And in the ninth hour Yeshua cried out in a loud voice, and he said: “Eil, Eil, lemana Shabaqthani”, which is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
    This is the Father as 'God'.

    Mark 16:19
    But Yeshua Our Lord, after he was speaking with them, ascended into Heaven, and he sat down at the right side of God.
    This would be the Father as 'God'; Yeshua is our Lord.

    Luke 2:52
    But Yeshua was growing in his stature and in his wisdom and in favor with God and the children of men.
    This would be the Father as 'God.'

    Luke 6:12
    But it occurred in those days that Yeshua went out to a mountain to pray, and there he was waiting for the morning in the prayer of God.
    This would be the Father as 'God'.

    Luke 18:19
    Yeshua said to him, “Why do you call me good? There is no one good except the one God.”
    Same as before, I would say this is the Unity.

    John 3:2
    This man came to Yeshua at night and said to him: “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher sent from God, for no man is able to do these miracles that you are doing unless God were with him.”
    This might be the Father or God in general, the Unity.

    John 8:42
    Yeshua said unto them, “If God were your father, you would have loved me, for I have proceeded from God and have not come of my own pleasure, but he has sent Me.”
    This is the Father.

    John 8:54
    Yeshua said to them, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is my Father who glorifies me, he of whom you say, 'He is our God.' “
    This is the Father as 'God'.

    John 9:3
    Yeshua said to them, “He had not sinned nor his parents, but that the works of God may appear in him.”
    This is the Father as 'God.'

    John 13:31
    Yeshua said, “Now The Son of Man is glorified and God is glorified in him.”
    This is the Father.

    John 14:1*
    “Let not your heart be troubled. Believe in God and believe in me.”
    This is the Father as 'God'; we are to believe in two persons, the Father and the Son.

    John 17:3
    “But these things are eternal life: 'They shall know you, for you alone are The God of Truth, and Yeshua The Messiah whom you have sent.' “
    Jesus is speaking to the Father. We must know both, the Father and Yeshua.

    John 20:17
    Yeshua said to her. “Don't cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to join my Father, and go join my brothers and say to them that I ascend to join my Father and your Father, my God, and your God.”
    This is the Father as 'God'; Yeshua is the one who is going to ascend to the Father.

    Acts 2:22
    “Men, sons of Israel, hear these words: Yeshua The Nazarene, The Man who appeared to you from God with mighty works and with signs and with miracles, which God did among you by his hand, as you know,”
    This is the Father. Yeshua is the man who did the mighty works with signs and miracles.

    Acts 2:32
    “God has raised up this Yeshua, and we are all his witnesses.”
    This is the Father as 'God'.

    Acts 2:36
    “Let therefore the whole house of Israel know truly, God has made this Yeshua, LORD JEHOVAH and The Messiah, whom you had crucified.”
    This would be the Father as God. Jesus as Yeshua, LORD Jehovah and the Messiah.

    Acts 3:13
    “The God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, The God of our fathers, has glorified his Son Yeshua, him whom you handed over and rejected in the presence of Pilatus, when he had rightly judged to release him.”
    This is the Father as 'God', Yeshua is the Son of God.

    Acts 4:10
    “Let this be known to you and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Yeshua The Messiah, the Nazarene, him whom you have crucified, whom God has raised from among the dead, behold, in it and by him this man stands before you whole.”
    This would be the Father as 'God'; Yeshua as the one who made the man whole.

    Acts 5:30
    “The God of our forefathers raised up Yeshua, The One whom you murdered, when you hanged him on a tree.”
    This would be the Father.

    Acts 7:55
    And he, being filled with faith and The Spirit of Holiness, gazed into Heaven and he saw the glory of God, and Yeshua as he stood at the right side of God.
    This would be the Father as 'God' and Yeshua is the one standing at the right side of Him.

    Acts 10:36
    For the word which he sent to the children of Israel and announced good news of peace and tranquility to them by Yeshua The Messiah, ( This One is LORD JEHOVAH of all ),
    The 'he' would be the Father, the LORD JEHOVAH of all is Yeshua the Messiah.

    Acts 10:38
    About Yeshua who was from Nazareth, whom God anointed with The Spirit of Holiness and with power, and he was traveling and healing those injured by The Evil One, because God was with him.
    This would be the Father.

    Acts 13:23
    From the seed of this man God raised up to Israel, according to what was promised, Yeshua The Savior.
    'God' is the Father here, the Savior is Yeshua.

    Acts 20:21
    “While I was testifying to the Jews and to the Aramaeans about returning home to the Presence of God and the faith in our Lord Yeshua The Messiah.”
    The 'God' is the Father, the 'Lord' is Yeshua.

    I will start a new post with these:
    Romans 1:7
    Romans 1:8
    Romans 2:16
    Romans 3:22
    Romans 4:24
    Romans 5:1
    Romans 5:11
    Romans 5:15
    Romans 5:17
    Romans 6:23
    Romans 7:25
    Romans 8:34
    Romans 10:9
    Romans 15:5
    Romans 15:6
    Romans 16:27
    1 Corinthians 1:3
    1 Corinthians 1:9
    1 Corinthians 1:30
    1 Corinthians 8:6
    1 Corinthians 15:57
    2 Corinthians 1:2
    2 Corinthians 1:3
    2 Corinthians 11:31
    2 Corinthians 13:14
    Galatians 1:1
    Galatians 1:3
    Ephesians 1:2
    Ephesians 1:3
    Ephesians 1:17
    Ephesians 2:6
    Ephesians 6:23
    Philippians 1:2
    Philippians 2:11
    Colossians 1:3*
    Colossians 3:17
    1 Thessalonians 1:1
    1 Thessalonians 1:3
    1 Thessalonians 3:11
    1 Thessalonians 3:13
    1 Thessalonians 4:14
    1 Thessalonians 5:9
    2 Thessalonians 1:1
    2 Thessalonians 1:2
    2 Thessalonians 1:12
    2 Thessalonians 2:16
    1 Timothy 1:1
    1 Timothy 1:2
    1 Timothy 2:5
    1 Timothy 5:21
    1 Timothy 6:3
    2 Timothy 1:1
    2 Timothy 1:2
    2 Timothy 4:1
    Titus 1:4
    Titus 2:13
    Philemon 1:3
    Hebrews 13:20
    James 1:1
    1 Peter 1:2
    1 Peter 2:5
    2 Peter 1:1
    2 Peter 1:2
    1 John 5:1*
    1 John 5:20
    2 John 1:3
    Jude 1:1
    Jude 1:4
    Jude 1:21
    Jude 1:25
    Revelation 1:1
    Revelation 1:2
    Revelation 14:12

    #345011
    Profile photo of Lightenup Lightenup 
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    Quote (t8 @ July 31 2012,21:22)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2012,15:43)
    t8,
    you said:

    Quote
    Kathi, you clearly teach that God is two.

    I teach that our God and Lord are two. The Lord is the only begotten God.


    OK, so no problem there.
    God is the Father.
    God made Jesus, Lord.

    Sorted.

    Now the only outstanding point is that both the Father and Jesus are YHWH.

    Is this correct.


    t8,
    I would say it more like this:

    God is the Father.
    The only begotten God is the Son.
    God made the only Begotten God, Lord and Messiah.

    Quote
    Now the only outstanding point is that both the Father and Jesus are YHWH.

    Is this correct.

    This would be more precise:
    YHWH refers to either the Unity of God (Father) with the only begotten God (Son), or to either of them separately. Context and correct understanding can often make it clear.

    #345012
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
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    I only asked for 10, but if you want to do them all, then just list the ones that are not exclusively the Father.

    #345013
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
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    Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2012,16:40)
    Mark 10:18
    Yeshua said to him, “Why do you call me good? There is no one good but The One God.”
    I would say this is the Unity.


    What unity.

    God and Jesus are united and so we can too.

    I presume you are talking of the Father son union. And not including us.

    “Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.”

    You see there are more than two in this unity.

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