T8 vs Lightenup

This topic contains 637 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  t8 3 months ago.

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  • #344984
     t8 
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    Quote (Lightenup @ July 28 2012,14:48)
    Are you and your wife a binity or a unity? What is the difference in your opinion or are they the same?


    A unity of course.

    Now let's look at Paul's writing.

    For US there is one God the Father.

    Now let's apply that to your figurative argument here.

    There is one Man the husband. In other words a husband and wife are not THE Man because you cannot say there is one Man the husband and wife. Not that is two adams/man. Not one.

    Likewise the Father and Son are not THE God. The Father is.

    #344985
     t8 
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    Quote (Lightenup @ July 28 2012,14:48)
    1 Cor 8:6
    To us, ours is one God The Father, for all things are from him and we are in him, and The One LORD JEHOVAH Yeshua The Messiah, for all things are by him, and we are also in his hand.


    kathi.

    Jesus is lord. It was God that made him lord. Yet it doesn't really need an explanation that Jesus is lord, but not lord of the one who made him lord.

    Same with Pharaoh and Joseph. The Pharaoh effectively made Joseph lord of his empire, but not lord over Pharaoh himself.

    So you could say that Pharaoh was lord and so was Joseph and yet who in their right mind would argue that they were the same being because they were both referred to as lord.

    If you have ever rented a house you had a landlord, and there are lords to this day in The House of Lords which is the upper house of the Parliament of the United Kingdom.

    Lord means ruler or authority and who would argue that if Jesus was made lord by the ultimate authority God, then would that make him God. Of course not.

    We know for example that God has handed all things to Jesus and when they all come under his feet, then he hands it all to God because at that point all is now under the Kingdom, and God can indwell all. When you read that particular scripture is clearly states that this does not include God himself.

    1 Corinthians 15:27
    For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

    So your idea of using the word lord to prove that someone is God is misguided.

    #344986
     Lightenup 
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    Quote (t8 @ July 29 2012,00:27)

    Quote (Lightenup @ July 28 2012,14:48)
    t8,
    you said

    Quote
    You are applying your own understanding here.


    Yes, that is what you are after here, isn't it?  


    Yes that is right. And I want you to see that it is your own understanding and even by your own admission now.

    There is a difference between applying your own understanding and understanding the things of God.
    The former is from your own spirit or mind, the latter is from God.


    Hold on there Scholar…you are judging my own understanding as being not from God. How is it that you decide if another's own understanding is from God or just their fleshly thoughts? Do you know? Is your test a comparison between your own understanding and another's? If someone agrees with you, then they understand the things of God and if they don't agree with you, then they don't understand the things of God?

    What does the Bible say about how to decide what is the right interpretation of scripture?

    Here are some tests that scripture has for us to see if one is with understanding from God or not:

    Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
    Philippians 2:11 And every tongue shall confess that Yeshua The Messiah is THE LORD JEHOVAH to the glory of God his Father.

    Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
    1 Cor 12:3
    Because I inform you of this: there is no man who speaks by The Spirit of God and says, “Yeshua is damned”, neither can a man say, “Yeshua is THE LORD JEHOVAH”, except by The Spirit of Holiness.

    So, test yourself t8, can you say that Yeshua is the LORD JEHOVAH…or the Messiah is the LORD JEHOVAH?

    Scripture says that you can only confess that by the Spirit of Holiness. If you can't confess that, realize that I can. So, you see, I am not alone in my understanding…it is apparent that the authors of the manuscripts of which the Aramaic Bible in Plain English clearly understands this also.

    So here are your own words judging you:

    “There is a difference between applying your own understanding and understanding the things of God.
    The former is from your own spirit or mind, the latter is from God.”

    #344987
     Lightenup 
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    Quote (t8 @ July 29 2012,00:29)

    Quote (Lightenup @ July 28 2012,14:48)
    How many have divine deity nature as their original nature?


    I don't have a figure but God shares his nature or allows beings to participate in it. This never makes a person God himself, although that doesn't rule out being called theos. But THE Theos and theos are 2 different things. Not many are aware of that.

    Likewise, the Spirit and spirit are not the same thing too.


    t8,
    Ok, you don't have a figure. So, according to scripture, there are gods that are by nature not gods.

    Gal 4:8 8For then when you had not known God, you served those which by their nature were not gods.

    Therefore, there are also a god or gods that by nature ARE gods.

    You admit that you do not know how many persons have this divine deity nature as their original nature…realize that you DO NOT KNOW by your own admission.

    Also realize that the question was not how many persons that have a non-deity divine original nature partake of this nature.

    You say that Theos and theos are two different things and not many are aware of that.

    I don't think that you are aware of who is Theos and who is theos. The person/persons who are 'Theos' would have the nature of god. Those who are merely 'theos' would NOT have the nature of god but would be served as if they had the nature of god.

    Jesus is THE only begotten Theos, not a begotten theos.

    New American Standard Bible (©1995)
    No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

    Also, Jesus is the exact representation of God's nature.

    Heb 1:3
    New American Standard Bible (©1995)
    And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

    #344988
     Lightenup 
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    Quote

    Quote (t8 @ July 08 2012,08:14)

    Quote (Lightenup @ July 08 2012,20:16)
    Mike,
    You indicate that I believe in one person that is His own Son yet in the next sentence you indicate that I believe in two persons. I'm pretty sure that you know that I believe in two persons and one is from the other so why would you act like I was saying that one came from himself? You probably need a break or something.


    Do you object to that doctrine being called the Binity so we can use one word to refer to it?


    Hi t8,
    Thanks for asking. I do object to using the word 'binity' to express what I believe. Are you and your wife a binity? If you want a word to sum up what I believe, use the word that the Bible uses:

    Jehovah

    Deut 10:17
    For Jehovah your God, he is God of gods, and Lord of lords, the great God, the mighty, and the terrible, who regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward.

    t8,
    It seems that you did not bother to read the answer to your question that you asked me in the Delusions thread. If you read it yet still call what I believe a binity, why would you do that since I said that it was not what I wanted you to call it?

    #344989
     Lightenup 
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    Quote (t8 @ July 29 2012,00:34)

    Quote (Lightenup @ July 28 2012,14:48)
    Are you and your wife a binity or a unity? What is the difference in your opinion or are they the same?


    A unity of course.

    Now let's look at Paul's writing.

    For US there is one God the Father.

    Now let's apply that to your figurative argument here.

    There is one Man the husband. In other words a husband and wife are not THE Man because you cannot say there is one Man the husband and wife. Not that is two adams/man. Not one.

    Likewise the Father and Son are not THE God. The Father is.


    t8,
    Why is it that you and your wife are a unity and not a binity or are you both a unity as well as a binity? Please answer this specific question or I will keep bringing it up.

    Quote
    Now let's look at Paul's writing.

    For US there is one God the Father.

    Is that really what Paul says or does it stop short of what he says? Here is what Paul said as who is for US:

    1 Cor 8:6
    Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
    To us, ours is one God The Father, for all things are from him and we are in him, and The One LORD JEHOVAH Yeshua The Messiah, for all things are by him, and we are also in his hand.

    Now, t8, tell me how many persons are for us that are our one God and our one Lord?

    Please answer these bolded questions, t8, thanks.

    Quote
    Now let's apply that to your figurative argument here.

    There is one Man the husband. In other words a husband and wife are not THE Man because you cannot say there is one Man the husband and wife. Not that is two adams/man. Not one.

    Likewise the Father and Son are not THE God. The Father is.

    In the context of 1 Cor 8:6, I understand that it is saying that the one God is the Father. It is not saying that the one God is the Father and the Son. However, it does call Jesus our one Lord and likewise, it is not saying that the Father is our one Lord. It is also not saying that the one Lord is the Father and the Son. So, I think you reflect by your application that you do not understand what I am saying.

    I am saying that for us there is one God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus…Lord as in YHWH the Messiah.

    It seems that the intent of this passage is to tell us who our God and Lord are. It is not just the Father but the Father as God and the Son as Lord. Together THEY are our God and our Lord. I further believe that this one God and one Lord make up our two person supreme authority. Please note that I did not say that they make up our two person supreme authorities but singular, as…authority.

    #344990
     Lightenup 
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    Quote (t8 @ July 29 2012,01:01)

    Quote (Lightenup @ July 28 2012,14:48)
    1 Cor 8:6
    To us, ours is one God The Father, for all things are from him and we are in him, and The One LORD JEHOVAH Yeshua The Messiah, for all things are by him, and we are also in his hand.


    kathi.

    Jesus is lord. It was God that made him lord. Yet it doesn't really need an explanation that Jesus is lord, but not lord of the one who made him lord.

    Same with Pharaoh and Joseph. The Pharaoh effectively made Joseph lord of his empire, but not lord over Pharaoh himself.

    So you could say that Pharaoh was lord and so was Joseph and yet who in their right mind would argue that they were the same being because they were both referred to as lord.

    If you have ever rented a house you had a landlord, and there are lords to this day in The House of Lords which is the upper house of the Parliament of the United Kingdom.

    Lord means ruler or authority and who would argue that if Jesus was made lord by the ultimate authority God, then would that make him God. Of course not.

    We know for example that God has handed all things to Jesus and when they all come under his feet, then he hands it all to God because at that point all is now under the Kingdom, and God can indwell all. When you read that particular scripture is clearly states that this does not include God himself.

    1 Corinthians 15:27
    For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

    So your idea of using the word lord to prove that someone is God is misguided.


    t8
    you said:

    Quote
    Jesus is lord. It was God that made him lord. Yet it doesn't really need an explanation that Jesus is lord, but not lord of the one who made him lord.

    Jesus is theos. Who made Him theos? And when did that happen?

    When did God make him lord, as you say?

    And, just for the record, I am not saying that Jesus is lord of the Father. I am saying that Jesus is the one Lord in our two person supreme authority composed of one God and one Lord.

    Quote
    So your idea of using the word lord to prove that someone is God is misguided.

    I am not using the word lord to prove that someone is God. I am using the fact that the only begotten God is the one Lord part of our two person supreme authority.

    #344991
     t8 
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    Quote (Lightenup @ July 30 2012,17:28)
    Why is it that you and your wife are a unity and not a binity or are you both a unity as well as a binity?


    We are separate persons who choose to be united in spirit and flesh. We are not one being with 2 persons.

    A Binity is a being made up of 2 persons just as a Trinity is being made of 3 persons.

    So I am in unity with my wife.
    We can be in unity with God.
    We can be in unity with Jesus.
    We can be in unity with each other.

    Trying to make these unities to be a Trinity or Binity is a step too far.

    #344992
     t8 
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    Quote (Lightenup @ July 30 2012,17:28)
    1 Cor 8:6
    Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
    To us, ours is one God The Father, for all things are from him and we are in him, and The One LORD JEHOVAH Yeshua The Messiah, for all things are by him, and we are also in his hand.

    Now, t8, tell me how many persons are for us that are our one God and our one Lord?


    It doesn't say one LORD Jehovah Yeshua.

    There is one who is God, that is the Father.
    There is one who is Lord (Lord of God's creation) and that is Jesus.
    There is one who is your landlord if you rent a house.

    But Jesus can be lord of your landlord just as God is lord over Jesus Christ.

    The one God who is the Father, MADE Jesus Christ to be lord of his creation.
    The one who gives is greater than the one who receives.

    One God.
    One Lord.

    This does not negate landlords, nor the fact that God is over Jesus.

    You want to read this as saying, one God Jesus Christ.
    But even if you did that, it would be to the detriment of the Father.

    #344993
     t8 
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    Quote (Lightenup @ July 30 2012,17:43)
    Jesus is theos. Who made Him theos? And when did that happen?

    When did God make him lord, as you say?


    It is enough to say as scripture says that God made him Lord. I won't go any further than the scripture so as to not create another path of inquiry. We already have enough to talk about.

    Jesus, men, angels are also theos. It is God the Father who does this. Theos can be applied to those who carry God's authority.

    #344994
     t8 
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    Kathi, I have a couple of must-answer questions in bold below.

    I say THE God is exclusively THE Father.
    You say that God is the Father and Son.

    Excluding all instances of God/theos that is applied to men, angels, Satan, idols, etc, when the word God is mentioned in scripture, whose understanding breaks the scripture and whose does not.

    e.g., For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son….
    t8: For the Father so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son….
    kathi: For the Father and Son so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son….

    Who is right in the example above.
    Who one is right in all other God scriptures excluding as I said other identities such as angels and men etc.

    For assistance in answering the second question, here is a page that lists a number of random scriptures with the world God in them. You can apply your understanding of God to see if your understanding works or breaks these scriptures.
    http://heavennet.net/writings/100-indisputable-proof-verses/

    I look forward to your honest answers.

    And I should mention that should any of us fail to answer a question or purposefully avoid answering a question, then because such activity nullifies the power that the Hot Seat Forum has, the result should be that discussion opens up for others so they can voice their disgust. Hopefully it doesn't come to that.

    #344995
     Lightenup 
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    Quote (t8 @ July 31 2012,18:52)

    Quote (Lightenup @ July 30 2012,17:28)
    Why is it that you and your wife are a unity and not a binity or are you both a unity as well as a binity?


    We are separate persons who choose to be united in spirit and flesh. We are not one being with 2 persons.

    A Binity is a being made up of 2 persons just as a Trinity is being made of 3 persons.

    So I am in unity with my wife.
    We can be in unity with God.
    We can be in unity with Jesus.
    We can be in unity with each other.

    Trying to make these unities to be a Trinity or Binity is a step too far.


    t8,
    If a binity is a being made up of two persons, then why do you call what I am saying, a binity. I never said anything about one being made up of two persons. I speak of two beings in unity together as one supreme authority with common eternal nature.

    Please acknowledge this before I can go farther with you.

    #344996
     t8 
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    Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2012,14:12)

    Quote (t8 @ July 31 2012,18:52)

    Quote (Lightenup @ July 30 2012,17:28)
    Why is it that you and your wife are a unity and not a binity or are you both a unity as well as a binity?


    We are separate persons who choose to be united in spirit and flesh. We are not one being with 2 persons.

    A Binity is a being made up of 2 persons just as a Trinity is being made of 3 persons.

    So I am in unity with my wife.
    We can be in unity with God.
    We can be in unity with Jesus.
    We can be in unity with each other.

    Trying to make these unities to be a Trinity or Binity is a step too far.


    t8,
    If a binity is a being made up of two persons, then why do you call what I am saying, a binity. I never said anything about one being made up of two persons. I speak of two beings in unity together as one supreme authority with common eternal nature.

    Please acknowledge this before I can go farther with you.


    In that case, you deny that God is a being. You deny that he is a HE. Your God is 2 beings, thus you break the first commandment that God is one, because you say that he is two.

    #344997
     Lightenup 
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    t8,
    you said:

    Quote

    It doesn't say one LORD Jehovah Yeshua.

    Yes it does…you are in denial my friend. See the Aramaic Bible of Plain English on the Bible.cc site here:
    http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/8-6.htm

    There are several more examples of the Aramaic manuscripts clearly calling Jesus the “LORD Jehovah Yeshua.” Would you like to see them?

    #344998
     Lightenup 
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    t8,
    Where does the Bible say that He is one being? A unity takes singular personal pronouns, there are several examples, the church is a 'she' for example.

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