T8 vs Lightenup

This topic contains 637 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  t8 6 months ago.

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  • #344969
     t8 
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    Hi Kathi.

    I have decided to go straight to the Supreme Court with your view. You mentioned in the thread that I was not suppose to post in that I don't answer your questions.

    So here is the opportunity for me to answer your questions and for you to answer mine and to get feedback and questions from others.

    Because this is in the Hot Seat, I am forced to answer your questions. I do not answer your other questions because I have not read them. I can't remember not answering a question that I have seen from you.

    #344970
     t8 
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    Kathi, you say that the Father is God and Jesus is the begotten God and together they are God. This appears to be the doctrine you teach here.

    Question: You believe in an unbegotten God and a begotten God.
    Excuse me if this seems overly obvious, but that is 2 Gods is it not?
    Bear in mind that you say there is a begotten GOd and an unbegotten GOd meaning that the begotten God cannot be the unbegotten God and vice versa.

    I count 2 Gods.

    Please explain.

    #344971
     t8 
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    BTW, if this is a duplicate Hot Seat debate, then I can shut this down and post my questions in the original.

    #344972
     Lightenup 
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    This is great t8, I welcome the opportunity but I think that it would be easier to stick to us answering each other's questions if it were a closed discussion. Would you mind limiting it to a discussion just between the two of us? It would be much easier for us to keep a flow going in the discussion. There can be another thread for a discussion about our discussion if you would like.

    #344973
     t8 
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    OK, we will do that.
    But how about letting others post when we are both done with asking each other questions.
    It can be good to allow others to comment on the conversation at the end.

    #344974
     Lightenup 
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    Well, if we do that then either one of us may come up with a whole line of more questions after a 'lull' in the conversation. I think that having another thread for comments to our discussion would be better. It would make it a lot easier for us to quote each other's thoughts, for me anyway.

    #344975
     Lightenup 
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    While I wait for your response to that last post, I will begin to address your questions.

    There are two sides to a coin, agreed? When the coin is laying on the table, you see only one side.

    What it seems to me is that what you are doing is insisting that there is only one side to the coin while I am insisting that there are two. I am trying to show you that the coin is made up of one head and one tail. If you look at the head side, you see a coin…if you look at the tail side, you see a coin also. If you hold the coin in a clenched fist, you know that you have the coin in your fist and it is not specifically heads or tails.

    In other words, in some contexts scripture calls Jesus 'God' and in other contexts scripture calls the Father 'God.' I see them both as God sorta like I see both sides of the coin as a coin. Then there are all sorts of others that scripture calls 'god.' They would be like the plastic coins that by nature are not real coins but have some representations to a coin. Ultimately, they have no real value except for showing that there is a difference between the coins that are valuable and the coins that aren't and perhaps how to count money.

    If I showed a picture of a coin to a child and he saw only the heads side and then showed another picture of the same coin to the same child but it showed the tails side…then I asked the child if he thought he was seeing the same coin, he might mistakenly say no. The person who took the pictures would know that it was the same coin but the person who did not witness the picture being taken would have to either believe the photographer or not. Now as an adult, we understand that a coin has two sides with two different pictures and can accept that it very well could be the same coin. Understanding coins and witnessing the photographer makes it crystal clear. However, if we weren't around to witness the photographer, then we lean on our understanding and take a guess. The photographers word is like the word of God. We can believe it or not. One way or the other, there is only one truth. It seems to me that you have only one side to your coin, t8. It seems that, to you, the heads side up is the only way a real coin is but the tails side up is less than the real coin.

    For us, there is only one head on the coin, the Father and one tail on the coin, Jesus Christ. We do not have a coin with two heads on it or two tails. I believe that in some contexts, the Bible author distinguishes between the two 'sides' by calling one God and one Lord…both are called 'God' in other contexts, i.e. John 1:1. One side of the coin is with the other side of the coin 'in the beginning.' The two sides are inseparable…together they make one coin.

    So, in summary, there are two persons that make up the one God unity like two sides make up the one coin.

    Are you understanding my word picture at all here? It is just a word picture and as the nature of word pictures go, it is not perfect by any means. The Lord used them though so I thought I would give it a try :) I hope it helps you to understand why I say there are two Gods but one God.

    #344976
     Lightenup 
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    t8
    you said:

    Quote
    Because this is in the Hot Seat, I am forced to answer your questions. I do not answer your other questions because I have not read them. I can't remember not answering a question that I have seen from you.

    Do you not check this thread that you created? Do you have an answer?

    #344977
     t8 
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    Quote (Lightenup @ July 18 2012,04:32)
    There are two sides to a coin, agreed? When the coin is laying on the table, you see only one side.

    What it seems to me is that what you are doing is insisting that there is only one side to the coin while I am insisting that there are two. I am trying to show you that the coin is made up of one head and one tail. If you look at the head side, you see a coin…if you look at the tail side, you see a coin also. If you hold the coin in a clenched fist, you know that you have the coin in your fist and it is not specifically heads or tails.


    You are applying your own understanding here. A coin has 2 main sides yes. But a dice has 6. I could equally make the argument that there is the Trinity, plus, redeemed man, cherubs, and seraphs that all have or can participate in divine nature. Now I have Quintinity.

    Of course I am not going to make that argument, but I have as much evidence here as you do with your Binity.

    #344978
     t8 
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    Quote (Lightenup @ July 18 2012,04:32)
    In other words, in some contexts scripture calls Jesus 'God' and in other contexts scripture calls the Father 'God.' I see them both as God sorta like I see both sides of the coin as a coin. Then there are all sorts of others that scripture calls 'god.' They would be like the plastic coins that by nature are not real coins but have some representations to a coin. Ultimately, they have no real value except for showing that there is a difference between the coins that are valuable and the coins that aren't and perhaps how to count money.


    Look at the bigger picture.

    Some context scriptures call Jesus theos, man as theos, angel as theos, idols as theos, Satan as theos.

    You are narrowing it down to 2 because your predefined belief says God has 2 faces and I have shown that theos is applied to multiple beings and things.

    Again, I could equally argue any number of persons in one God just as you have.

    But I believe Paul when he said, “for US, there is one God the Father”. Whereas you would have me believe your view instead which states that there is one God the Father and Son. Your view is not written in scripture, Paul's is.

    #344979
     t8 
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    Quote (Lightenup @ July 18 2012,04:32)
    For us, there is only one head on the coin, the Father and one tail on the coin, Jesus Christ. We do not have a coin with two heads on it or two tails. I believe that in some contexts, the Bible author distinguishes between the two 'sides' by calling one God and one Lord…both are called 'God' in other contexts, i.e. John 1:1. One side of the coin is with the other side of the coin 'in the beginning.' The two sides are inseparable…together they make one coin.


    Again, this is not a reasonable interpretation .

    There is one God the Father is not similarly constructed as there is one head on the coin.

    God in your analogy is the coin, yet Paul is effectively saying that God is the whole thing and that Jesus is not even mentioned as being the coin so to speak. if you care to read what Paul actually said you will see this to be the case.

    #344980
     t8 
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    Quote (Lightenup @ July 18 2012,04:32)
    So, in summary, there are two persons that make up the one God unity like two sides make up the one coin.


    Paul says in summary that there is one God the Father. He does not say that there is one God the Father and Son.

    You clearly differ with Paul and obviously I cannot embrace Paul's teaching and yours at the same time. That would make me a double minded man making me unstable in all my ways.

    #344981
     Lightenup 
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    t8,
    you said

    Quote
    You are applying your own understanding here.


    Yes, that is what you are after here, isn't it?

    Quote
    A coin has 2 main sides yes.


    Very good!

    Quote
    But a dice has 6. I could equally make the argument that there is the Trinity, plus, redeemed man, cherubs, and seraphs that all have or can participate in divine nature. Now I have Quintinity.

    How many have divine deity nature as their original nature?

    Quote
    Of course I am not going to make that argument, but I have as much evidence here as you do with your Binity.

    Are you and your wife a binity or a unity? What is the difference in your opinion or are they the same?

    Quote
    But I believe Paul when he said, “for US, there is one God the Father”. Whereas you would have me believe your view instead which states that there is one God the Father and Son. Your view is not written in scripture, Paul's is.

    How many persons are listed in this verse regarding how many gods and lords are for us, one or two?

    1 Cor 8:6
    To us, ours is one God The Father, for all things are from him and we are in him, and The One LORD JEHOVAH Yeshua The Messiah, for all things are by him, and we are also in his hand.

    #344982
     t8 
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    Quote (Lightenup @ July 28 2012,14:48)
    t8,
    you said

    Quote
    You are applying your own understanding here.


    Yes, that is what you are after here, isn't it?  


    Yes that is right. And I want you to see that it is your own understanding and even by your own admission now.

    There is a difference between applying your own understanding and understanding the things of God.
    The former is from your own spirit or mind, the latter is from God.

    #344983
     t8 
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    Quote (Lightenup @ July 28 2012,14:48)
    How many have divine deity nature as their original nature?


    I don't have a figure but God shares his nature or allows beings to participate in it. This never makes a person God himself, although that doesn't rule out being called theos. But THE Theos and theos are 2 different things. Not many are aware of that.

    Likewise, the Spirit and spirit are not the same thing too.

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