Son of God and son of man

This topic contains 30 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by  NickHassan 2 days, 7 hours ago.

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  • #818849
     AndrewAD 
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    No Jael I’m not confused but grant that you are by all the cultic teaching you’re currently under.I grant I was at one time confused and under cultic teachings also but T8 and others helped me to read the scriptures for myself. I don’t think you’re teaching me anything except to be more thankful that I’m no longer under an arrogant and ignorant spell.

    And just where is Mary’s lineage in the scripture? There is no documentation for that,but trins and JiG’s say the same thing as you. Both ancestral lists are through Joseph and you rightly say AS THEY SAW IT. And if Jesus be virgin born the genealogies are really pointless anyway and maybe that’s why John just has God,and the Word who was with God and was God and became flesh,and also it’s written somewhere to give no heed to fables and endless genealogies which minister questions.

    #818918
     Jael 
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    1. Dear Andrew,

    I observe from your confession that you are appear to be claiming that you now believe the truth about God and Christ.

    Well, that is a great aspiration – if indeed the truth is what you have found where you are looking.

    In that vein I hope to see solid scriptural cohesion in your expositions from Here on in.

    As for the lineage of Jesus, research shows that there is too much controversy for lay persons such as you and I to bring a veritable conclusion.

    Suffice it to say each intersects to confirm the scriptural prophecy that the Christ would come from the lineage of David.

    This then confirms that the Christ is truly a son of man and not some ethereal ‘God in flesh’.

    Indeed, what does ‘God’ mean? Trini’s and Jig’s seem completely at odds with each other and themselves with this word or term.

    In one instance ‘God’ is three persons…Father, Son (notice that no one says ‘Jesus’ here!), and Holy Spirit (notice that scriptures describes this as a ‘Wind’, or ‘Breathe’ but trini’s call it a PERSON’!!!)

    In another, ‘God’ is a person it-/himself…

    And yet further, ‘God’ is ****’THE FATHER ALONE’**** as distinct from HIS SON and HIS SPIRIT (This is done when they cannot discredit the truth of scriptures!!)

    And then, when SOLIDLY TRAPPED in their own fallacy, ‘God’ is just ****’A THING’****: Substance and Nature ****SHARED**** by father, son, and Holy Spirit.

    And MOST STRANGELY, Unknown terms such as ‘GOD THE SON’, magically appear by desperate and purposefully deceptive means. In fact, untested by trini’s, this term actually states that the Son is A GOD in himself which they then hurriedly try to deny. After all, there are NO REGERENCES to ‘God the Son’ (Nnor also, ‘GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT) in any scriptures YET there are numerous references to ‘GOD THE FATHER’.

    Now, as for ‘EQUALITY WITH GOD’… Which of the above are the trini’s and Jig’s using as their definition of ‘God’?

    Answer required, please.

    The Jews knew ONLY ONE GOD… Which of the above do you think they alluded to?

    Answer required please.

    The Jews knew of the saying from ‘GOD’ that ‘There is no God beside me!’. If they then were supposed to have  understood Jesus’ claim that he was the ‘Son of God’ (No, not ‘GOD THE SON’!!) to mean that he was therefore EQUAL TO GOD, how does that sit with that God said, ‘I, alone, am your God’?

    Was the ‘Substance and nature’ that spoke these words? Was it the THREE PERSONS who said, ‘I….ALONE’… But, in any case, IT WAS NOT THE JEWS who claimed that the ‘Son of God’ meant, ‘MAKING HIM EQUAL TO GOD’, but rather it is a claim MADE SUPPOSEDLY BY THE GOSPEL WRITER… (Or MORE LIKELY, a trinitarian translator).

    I tried to find text anywhere that makes a claim that ‘A Son is Equal to his Father’ (notice the context changes here: ‘God’ … ‘Father’ because it makes NO SENSE to equate a PERSON with equality to A TITLE, therefore I CORRECTLY assume that ‘Equality to God’ was a trinitarian attempt NOT TO USE the correct term: ‘EQUALITY WITH THE FATHER’: Is Ivana Trump THE PRESIDENT and EQUAL TO THE PRESIDENT…I suppose Ivanca Trump is The President, too, and equal to the president…?)

    But what is MOST STRANGE is that trinitarians DO NOT REFER TO JESUS’ response. They do not reference the FACT that Jesus went to pains to state, ‘I DID NOT CALL MYSELF GOD BUT ONLY THE SON OF GOD’….’Indeed, GOD called men of holy renown, ‘GOD’…(I am the true son of God because) I DO THE WORKS OF MY FATHER…’

    Here, Jesus STATES that a TRUE SON of a Father (by which he denotes ‘FATHER’ as ‘GOD’) is one who ‘DOES THE WORKS OF THE FATHER’ (Does what the Father directs him to do) – a dig at the Jews who were not doing the works of their patriarch Father, Abraham (‘You are sons of Satan, for if you were sons of Abraham you would do what Abraham did!’).

    Howis it then that when Jesus caps these Jews ‘Sons of Satan’ no trinitarian jumps up and claims a literal Satanic Fatherhood for them NOR in fact that they ARE EQUAL TO SATAN but rather ONLY THAT THEY ARE SONS OF HIM WHO THEY DO THE WORKS OF’?(bad English but, hey ho!)

    #818919
     Jael 
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    Can anyone show me from Jewish customs or scriptures:

    1) Where a Son is supposedly equal to his Father

    (I use ‘Father’ instead of ‘God’ as ‘Son equal to God’ is nonsensical and an synergistical oxymoron)

    2) What it means to be ‘A SON’

    (And I don’t mean a ‘Flesh offspring’. Scriptures makes statements of ‘Sons of God’ in various verses in reference to both the Angels – who do the works of God – and the Apostles – Who do the works of God!)

    #818920
     AndrewAD 
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    Dear Jael,

    I observe from your statements such as “Mary did not PROCREATE Jesus – God CREATED him. Her genes were not in Jesus”that you remove Jesus from any human bloodline,and I take it you do this to adhere to your last Adam theory-that since Adam had no father or mother,then neither did Jesus. So do you consider this scriptural cohesion? Where does it say Mary gave birth to the second or last Adam? which according to your theory Jesus wasn’t even her biological son. But what does Paul say about the last Adam?1 Cor15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.This is referring only to the resurrected,heavenly,spiritual Jesus not the earthly Jesus.Paul never knew the earthly Jesus and makes little mention of him except to say he was born of a woman,born under the law. But if your idea of Jesus not having even the genes of Mary then he is no son of man in human terms.

    And as for the lineage of Jesus you say we as lay persons can come to no veritable conclusions? Research shows that the messianic line was supposed to come through Solomon not Nathan and a virgin birth dismisses both lines.

    #818921
     Lightenup 
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    @AndrewAD

    I just read this today and saw that you posted about the lineage of Yeshua. I think this will help you in that regards.

    http://free.messianicbible.com/feature/yeshua-pass-first-messianic-test/

    #818924
     AndrewAD 
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    Lu,thanks for the link and I did read it,but tbh it doesn’t help solve the problems.I’ve read many things and everybody has their ways of explaining everything away,Christans and Jews alike.I’ve even been on Jewish sites,non-Christian ones and asked them to explain some of their theories on Messiah that seem absurd to me and just hard to understand what they mean.They never respond  even though I ask respectfully not seeking any argument.Their theories seem as wacky as all these Christian prophecy pundits which I can at least usually understand their points.But my original point to Jael wasn’t about the discrepancies in the lineages but about the discrepancy of human lineage and virgin birth.

    #818925
     AndrewAD 
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    Jael,

    Furthermore even if Jesus be an ethereal God man with no human lineage he could still be the messiah for some.In the time of Jesus their were various theories on it as there are today and I think it possible that even Jesus in Mark expresses the idea that Christ may not be from David when he says in   Mark 12:35 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the son of David?:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.The idea being that fathers don’t call their sons Lord so how does David do this? perhaps it’s because he’s really not his son? or some have suggested it’s because this Lord/messiah is greater than he because of preexistence as a supernatural being as we discussed about Jn8.

    A supernatural god-man may well have a supernatural birth with signs and portents since it was claimed that many rulers, heros and gods of various nations did.The virgin birth is no different and signifies his deity.

    #818926
     AndrewAD 
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    As for what trins think about God of course it varies and it’s not right to throw everyone under the same bus.Most common people don’t think about it all that much and don’t pretend to be theologians,but many are truly devoted to what they believe.And there are different understandings of the trinity as there are on most all theological issues.But to put it simply I would say most think of God as Father and Son/Jesus and the Spirit as the one who is with them and makes it all real.

    At the end of Matt’s gospel we have being baptized in the name of the Father,Son and Holy Spirit which is a liturgical formula that developed early on but probably not from any original apostle.None of the gospels claim to be written by apostles,but were all written anonymously; it’s only church tradition that says they were to give them more authority.But the formula makes sense in that in Christianity we need all three-we can’t have the Father without the Son and we can’t have either without the Spirit or however one thinks that works.All Christians that I know of believe in all three even if they don’t believe in the term trinity.It’s simple to see why Jesus had to become God and the need to make them one.Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism which was strictly monotheistic yet Jesus as the Son of God received worship as God.Even the disciples and others in the gospels,Paul,and others are said to worship Jesus.If it’s a sin to worship any other than God then Jesus is God too. Of course most Jews were offended at that and that caused a rift to where they were being kicked out of the synagogues and had to form their own and the animosity began.We see this constantly in the gospels and nowhere more than John where it makes Jesus God and Jesus much more Christian than Jewish. It shouldn’t be any wonder that the author of John says in 5:18 that by Jesus calling himself the Son of God was making himself equal to God because the Christians had to say that in order to justify worshiping and praying to Jesus. And the Jews didn’t like it and said they were blaspheming.

    #818928
     t8 
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    #818961
     Ed J 
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    (A)Hello Edj… (a1)It is a dangerous road to go down if it is to be suggested that Jesus’ birth was through natural means in terms of human procreation. (a2)This would lead to the ‘veneration and worship of Mary’ that many Protestant and others are fond of claiming – (a3)despite absolutely no evidence from scriptures (nor any verifiable source or anywhere else, come to think of it!)

    God CREATED in Mary a holy and sinless human being. This is NOT PROCREATION.

    OF COURSE Mary would always be CALLED ‘The Mother of Jesus’ because every human birth is attributed to (the mother) – and MORE IMPORTANTLY – to a Father : Naturally and for tradition and heritage sake no one was going to claim GOD as the Father but God instructed Joseph that he should (shake off his doubts, anger and fears and ) continue with Mary as his betrothed and go along with the assumption that the child was his (The pitiless gossip would soon die away!!)

    (B)Edj, please do not enter into specifics of fleshly aspects of things in scriptures. God can do anything to his creation (but doesn’t). 1) Remember Moses… God made his hand wither and then restored it whole both in a moment. 2) Scriptures tells that God can create hunans from bare stones. 3) God says, ‘Who made the blind, who made the deaf… I did!’.

    (C)Edj, (c1)God created the first man (Adam) – God CREATED a second man (Jesus). ALL OTHERS of mankind were PROCREATED from the FATHERS SEED (sperm). (c2)It is the human sperm that carries the SPIRIT that causes the HUMAN PROCREATION. (c3)The HOLY SPIRIT was that spirit in BOTH ADAM AND JESUS.

    Hi Jael,

    A1) I’m not at all suggesting Joseph was Jesus father.
    a2) How so?
    a3) Romans 1:3 are among the many Scriptures

    B) Not sure what you are trying to say here ???

    C1) I believe we kinda agree here
    c2) Do you have any Scripture that supports (It is the human sperm that carries the SPIRIT) this assertion?
    c3) Do you have any Scripture that supports (The HOLY SPIRIT was that spirit in ADAM) this assertion as well?

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #818977
     Jael 
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    Andrew, try this test: When you want to try to prove a scriptural point, find THREE scriptures that qualify that point… Scripture ALWAYS repeats salient points!

    You lay a claim to the element of a verse claiming that baptism should be performed “in the name of the Father,Son and Holy Spirit”.

    1. Please show TWO other scriptures that support and qualify your claim….

    If you CANNOT (and it is a sure bet that you CANNOT) then a good piece of advice is to refrain from using unsubstantiated trinitarian claims as gospel truth.

    It is patently clear that this false claim is unscriptural seeing that there is NO NAME for the Holy Spirit… It is the SPIRIT of the Father. And further, the NAME of the Son is “Jesus”…. AND, as you will see when you fatally try to justify your claim, the scriptures has the Apostles baptising ONLY in the name of JESUS.

    Ha ha ha…. ‘mighty gods’, as pagans would say! your claim actually equates to calling the THREE, “Jesus”….

    Come on, admit it: you say “baptized (sic) in the name of the Father,Son and Holy Spirit” – so what is that ‘Name’? Well, if the Apostles did as you claim then the name of the three is…. ‘JESUS’!!

    So, Andrew, YOUR GOD, is called ‘Jesus’….

    See, Andrew, false scriptural claims ALWAYS come back to bite you – Check-mate!

    #818981
     Jael 
    Participant
    • Topics started 6
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    EDj,

    A1) I’m not at all suggesting Joseph was Jesus father.
    a2) How so?
    a3) Romans 1:3 are among the many Scriptures

    B) Not sure what you are trying to say here ???

    C1) I believe we kinda agree here
    c2) Do you have any Scripture that supports (It is the human sperm that carries the SPIRIT) this assertion?
    c3) Do you have any Scripture that supports (The HOLY SPIRIT was that spirit in ADAM) this assertion as well?

    A1) No one of true christian values reading the scriptures ever did.

    a2) What so? (Please state what you are querying)

    a3) What about Romans 1:3? What I said does not deny his earthly lineage. What I said was that he was a HOLY SPIRITED CREATION, not a HUMAN PRO-CREATION. I’m sure you can read as well as others where the Angel Gabriel told the virgin Mary (and it had to be a virgin so no one could claim latent sperm form an illicit affair, perhaps) that “The Holy Spirit will overshadow you and THEREFORE the child to be born will be called Holy – the son of God”. Pro-Creation refers to “[human] reproduction”… Are you going to claim that Jesus was a ‘human reproduction’ from Mary? Moreover, are you STILL NOT ABLE to understand what the term “SON OF GOD” means -Even after the STRONGLY WORDED statement from the Angel Gabriel: ‘…THEREFORE…”?

    B) What is it you cannot understand (It would be helpful if you quoted or even pointed out what you are referring to!)

    C1) … hmmm…

    c2) EDj, Do you need scriptures to know this? It is common biology. Are you aware of the female reproductive cycle? What happens to the eggs produced each month..? Are they not FLUSHED AWAY as unused produce in a manner regarded as so ‘Shameful’ (refer to pre-modern liberal era) that women have to hide away during this period? Edj, what happens to unused sperm in a male? Do you know that it is RE-ABSORBED into the man’s body? The Sperm is “Life” given to the egg if they properly encounter each other. I’m surprised you have to ask… are you a diehard antagonist?

    c3) Edj, what is it about antagonists that make them love themselves? Where are you seeing me say that the Holy Spirit was in Adam? Misread what i said? Ok, I’ll take it as that… God Almighty created a LIFELESS BODY of a human person and BLEW the breath of life into his nostrils (not literally… it is a way of saying, ‘He began to breathe’ – remember that Moses was not credited with knowledge of the methodology of modern day science – and the man became a LIVING SOUL. The Holy Spirit was the means by which God enlivened the body of Adam… just as the Holy Spirit was the means by which God enlivened the seed of Mary to form the living child come to be named ‘Jesus’, ‘The SECOND/LAST ADAM’

    #818987
     AndrewAD 
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    Jael,

    I only mentioned baptism and Matt 28:19 in response to you asking me about how trins think.I don’t care either way but Matt 28:19 is legit as scripture in my mind since it is in the bible and all the manuscripts read that way and many early Christians did use that formula.And “in the name of” probably means in the authority of. You know I wasn’t advocating all three names be Jesus as many modalists use. So why do you even accuse me of that?

    You do believe in the Father,Son and the Holy Spirit,oh forbid I say Ghost,correct? and they are essential to Christian salvation,correct?

    And there are many things that are only mentioned one time in the bible,so does that make them all illegitimate? and verses that disagree with others.But perhaps we should use your method of three verses versus one when it comes to the synoptics compared to John and see where we could go with that.

    #818989
     Ed J 
    Participant
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    Hi Jael,

    Thank you for clarifying your belief : )

    ________________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #820075
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
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    Hi,

    As Jesus was conceived in Mary he is like us and a son of Adam(man).

    God announced his sonship to Him at the Jordan.

     

    The Sons of God are led by the Spirit of God. Rom 8.14

    He was led by the Spirit of God.

     

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