Sins

This topic contains 34 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by  NickHassan 4 months, 1 week ago.

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  • #8821
     ruko 
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    My question concerns Leviticus 20:13 which, in the first part of the verse, describes homosexuality as a sin. It then goes on to say perpetrators of this sin shall be put to death. There are many instances in the bible where sins are capital in nature. The list includes working on the Sabbath, premarital sex, adultery, blasphemy, idol worship and some others.

    How do we reconcile this in the modern day? Is this the “old law”? Has it been abolished?

    #8822
     BrandonIke 
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    in the old testament, king david committed adultery, but he was not killed for it. cain killed his brother abel, but cain wasn't killed for it. i have quotes from the new testament below.

    matthew 5:43-35, “'You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.”

    matthew 12:31, “And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.”

    john 8:3-11, “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, 'Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say? They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, 'If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.' Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?' 'No one, sir,' she said. 'Then neither do I condemn you,' Jesus declared. 'Go now and leave your life of sin.'”

    #8823
     BrandonIke 
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    the nation of the hebrews was a land flowing with milk and honey. in those days, you can't have murderers and adulterers sneaking around in the streets left and right. they have to be stopped. it was written in scripture to kill them in general, but i don't think this is a strict commandment for every single person at every single time. forgiveness is possible by being given to us by our heavenly Father. a chance to grow and change. i wonder how many killers and rapists changed, got out of jail, and became helpers to our society in america.

    #8824
     BrandonIke 
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    it was more of a societal rule rather than a personal rule.

    #8825
     BrandonIke 
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    i read more closely the original post, and i see you wrote “blasphemy” and “idol worship.” for these 2, i believe they should be killed. but we must go by scripture. jesus did not command his apostles to take the sword up and slash and kill the pagans, the gentiles that were about. roman soldiers, the woman who asked for help saying that at least dogs can eat crumbs off the table.

    in my country, america, there is a law stating freedom of religion. if i were to walk down the sidewalk and kill an indian hindu, then there's a good chance i could be handcuffed and thrown in jail. i would be of less use locked up.

    #8831
     Eliyah 
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    ruko, you bring up some very important points.

    Actually, all those same sins are condemned by the Desciples in their Epistle's too.

    “”

    Quote
    My question concerns Leviticus 20:13 which, in the first part of the verse, describes homosexuality as a sin. It then goes on to say perpetrators of this sin shall be put to death. There are many instances in the bible where sins are capital in nature. The list includes working on the Sabbath, premarital sex, adultery, blasphemy, idol worship and some others.

    How do we reconcile this in the modern day? Is this the “old law”? Has it been abolished?

    First of all, Paul points out that the purpose and function of the Law IS TO IDENTIFY SIN( Rom.3:20; Rom.7:7), however, the law does not ” JUSTIFY ” nor ” SAVE ” a person, that is not the law's purpose, but Paul did NOT abolish the law or make it void through faith( Rom.3:31; Rom.6:1) either as some claim today. Also, Paul Himself said that he delighted in the law, and served Yah's law with his mind( Acts 24:14; Rom.7:22,25), but what is abolished through Messiah is “” THE CURSE OR DEATH PENALITY OF THE LAW “, not the law itself as some have been confused.

    However, the sins you mentioned which are lusts of the flesh and spiritual of the mind are all condemned by Paul ( Gal.5, Eph.5) and other places.

    The OLD scriptures, the law or torah was not and is not abolished, as Paul told Timothy “” THEY ARE ABLE TO MAKE YOU WISE UNTO SALVATION “”( 2 Tim.3:15-16).

    Those scriptures and the law was NEVER abolished, if they were, then WHAT “” scriptures “” did the Desciples have to teach from, and how could they make one wise unto salvation ?

    Those were the ONLY scriptures extant to them.

    Thanks,

    Eliyah C.

    #38542
     NickHassan 
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    Hi,
    Topical.
    Of course as gentiles we were never under the Old Law.

    #38547
     Morning Star 
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    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 01 2007,17:27)
    Hi,
    Topical.
    Of course as gentiles we were never under the Old Law.


    Maybe Gentiles did not have the “Letter” of the Law. However, all of us have have had the moral compass of right and wrong instilled inside us. That is why Paul mentions how some pagans lived the Law by following their conscience even though they never had the Law.

    For Men are without excuse. God's divine power and his laws of right and wrong have been self evident since the beginning. The written Law clarified and taught us. Now the spirit of the Law guides us with Christ in us so that if we abide in him we can strive towards perfection.

    #38548
     NickHassan 
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    Hi MS,
    We were not under the Law at all and were destined to perish outside of that Law. As you say some gentiles showed their conscinces were still naturally aligned with the Law and this was to their advantage in God's eyes.[Rom ]
    Now Jesus brought the Positive Law of Love, which was hidden within the Negative OT law with it's list of sins and prohibitions, and that positive law was seen only by the wise who really loved God.

    #38549
     942767 
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    Hi All:

    My understanding is that people under the Law of Moses practicied sin definately then the penalty for such things as homosexuality, breaking the Sabbath, Adultery as has been mentioned was death.

    It was difficult for me to understand why God would have someone who was picking up sticks on the Sabbath day would be stoned to death (Numbers 15:33-36) and  David who committed adultery and had Bathsheba's husband Uriah esentially killed by sending him to the front lines was forgiven.

    I asked God in prayer about this because it seemed to me that there was some disparity.  The Lord led me to the following scripture which I believe explains why each of the above sins was dealt with differently.

    The scripture states:  “But the soul that doeth aught presumptuously (Net bible translates this defiantly which I believe is correct), whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth (insults) the Lord; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.  Because he hath despised the word of the Lord, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him”. (Nimbers 15:30-31)

    The key is that if the sin is done defiantly then the penalty was death, but if a person was tempted, and in that moment yielded to the temptation, that person could be forgiven if they repented and David repented.  Also, the woman who was caught in adultery (John 8:4-11) was forgiven, but as Jesus forgave her, he also told her “go and sin no more (John 8:11).

    And to we who are Christians the Lord says: “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indigation, which shall devour the adversaries.  He that despised Moses law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, and unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?  For we know him that hat said, Vengance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord.  And again, the Lord shall judge his people.  It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God”.  (Hebrews 10:26-31)

    I have found God to be extremely merciful, but he is also a God of justice.

    God Bless

    #38550
     t8 
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    The letter of the law has been fulfilled for us, but we are expected to keep the spirit of the law.

    Matthew 5:18
    For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    So the Law will be there until the next age, so it is relevant today.

    2 Timothy 1:9
    who has saved us and called us to a holy life, not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

    But it is by God's grace that we are saved. The Law is the mark which we should live in order to live a righteous life. But we humans have all sinned and fallen short of that mark. So the Messiah came to us under the Law to become a sacrifice for our sins under that law, in order to fulfill the laws required punishment for us, namely death. He set us free from the curse of the law. The Law is made for the sinner, not the righteous and we have been made righteous in Christ Jesus.

    1 Timothy 1: 9
    We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,

    Romans 5:21
    so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    So righteousness is given to us through Jesus Christ and the Law is not made for us while we are in Jesus. But that doesn't make the law irrelevant. While there is sin, the Law is relevant. But Christ is the end of the Law for us, because he has dealt with our sin. The next scripture sums this up nicely.

    Philippians 3:9
    and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith:

    Now listen to the words of Christ to the Keepers of the Law in Matthew 23:23
    “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices, mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law, justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

    Here we can see that Christ condemned the Pharisees not because they didn't obey the letter of the law, because they did. No, he condemned them for not obeying the spirit of the law, which is justice and mercy.

    This is why Christ said in Matthew 23:2-3 to do as they say, but not as they do.
    2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
    3 So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

    If we love God with all our heart, soul and mind and we love our fellow man as we love ourselves, then we fulfill the law in spirit.

    Romans 13:8
    Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.

    Galatians 5:14
    The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

    Mark 12:28-34
    28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
    29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.
    30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'
    31 The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these.”
    32 “Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him.
    33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”
    34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.

    Romans 13:8-10
    8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.
    9 The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
    10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

    Therefore we are to keep the spirit of the Law lest we become like the Pharisees who only kept the letter of the law. Jesus fulfilled the letter of the law for us and if we are to keep the spirit of the law, we must love and show mercy. In doing such things we fulfill the law and the lack of love and mercy will incur the judgement of God.

    I will conclude with Romans 10:4
    For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

    #38557
     NickHassan 
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    Hi t8,
    Since gentiles were never under the Old Testament Law then would you agree that reborn gentiles are not under obligation to it, and it is useless for attaining righteousness, but it remains for them nailed to the cross as a guide against sin? They are not under death but life, and there is no condemnation possible from failing the tests, but they help us see how to attain towards the ways of Christ by the power of the Spirit?

    #38564
     Morning Star 
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    The doctrine of Imputed Righteoussness never existed before the reformation, except for a few gnostic cults.

    The gift of God is free. It is eternal life and we can have it by faith. We did nothing to deserve it.

    1st we believe on the Son of God (faith)
    2nd we repent (change and renew our mind)
    3rd we are baptised (for the remission of sins)
    4th receive the Holy Spirit (as a counselor, comforter and seal)

    all of this was a free gift by God that none of us deserved.

    but,

    Then then then THEN,

    We no longer sin, we abide in Christ. How? By following is commandments. We have to remain in the true vine or we will be pruned and tossed into the fire.

    But when we do sin, he is faithful and just to forgive us. But if we purposefully continue to sin or commit sins that lead to death (mortal sins that deserve death, like old testament) then we loose salvation.

    I don't know the limits or specifics (I am not Judge) on this, however, if we continue to live like this we can no longer be brought to repentance and we trample under foot the Son of God and crucify him all over again.

    Christ delivered us from sin he did not give us a license to live in sin.

    This was the gospel from the time of apostles through the centuries, corrupted by the catholic church and then butchered by the protestants.

    Check out the history on this. Try and find one Christian in all of history that believed in imputed righteousness. You might find a gnostic but thats the closest you will get for centuries and centuries after christ.

    #38565
     t8 
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    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 02 2007,21:05)
    Hi t8,
    Since gentiles were never under the Old Testament Law then would you agree that reborn gentiles are not under obligation to it, and it is useless for attaining righteousness, but it remains for them nailed to the cross as a guide against sin? They are not under death but life, and there is no condemnation possible from failing the tests, but they help us see how to attain towards the ways of Christ by the power of the Spirit?


    1 Timothy 1: 9
    We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,

    The law is for lawbreakers and ungodly. Not for the righteous. Surely there are ungodly Gentiles?

    The law doesn't justify us so it is useless for Gentiles and Jews to gain righteousness from it, I agree. It is certainly wrong to go back to the Law when you are in the grace of God and it seems pointless to make Gentiles come under the law, when they have something better and something that fulfills the law.

    The Jews came from the Law and were offered the grace of God through the gospel. For Gentiles they came not from the Law but they too can be offered grace, although the law certainly gives one an appreciation of grace and the law was written on their hearts anyway.

    So yes we do not make Gentiles follow after the letter of the Law, but that doesn't mean that the Law has disappeared. The Law is still applicable while there is sin in the world.

    #39119
     kenrch 
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    The righteous establish the law.
    Rom 3:31 Do we then make the law of none effect through faith? God forbid: nay, we establish the law.

    Has earth passed away?
    Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.

    Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    The law is written on our hearts.
    Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them After those days, saith the Lord: I will put my laws on their heart, And upon their mind also will I write them; then saith he

    2Co 3:3 being made manifest that ye are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in tables that are hearts of flesh

    Has the law been done away with as most churches teach?
    Rom 3:31 Do we then make the law of none effect through faith? God forbid: nay, we establish the law.

    The law has been made Spiritual.
    Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
    Mat 5:22 but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire.

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