Satan

This topic contains 2,231 replies, has 40 voices, and was last updated by  NickHassan 5 years, 10 months ago.

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  • #13926
     NickHassan 
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    Quote (Sammo @ May 21 2006,10:22)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 21 2006,07:40)
    Hi sammo,
    Then what of Satan being the “god of this world”?


    Hi Nick

    Off the top of my head, I don't know.


    Hi sammo,
    Now that you have had time to consider the matter according to the precious Word of God, who is “the god of this world?”

    If Jesus spoke of Satan would you believe Satan existed?

    #13930
     david 
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    Hi Sammo. I've read your link about Job.

    first, back to this quote of yours:

    Quote
    Evil (as in bad things that happen) comes from God. Sin comes from within our own heart.

    Regardless of what the next verse says, you say that evil or the bad things that happen comes from God.

    Scripture says:
    JAMES 1:13
    “When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For WITH EVIL THINGS GOD cannot be tried NOR DOES HE HIMSELF TRY ANYONE.”

    This statement is diametrically opposed to the idea that God causes evil.
    Why would a God of love Cause bad things to happen anyway?

    Ok, to Job.
    Why would Satan have to ask God for persmission to do those things in front of the whole assmebly of the sons of God? Because Satan is very intelligent (not wise, smart).
    The rebellious spirit called Satan assembled with other spirits in God’s presence.
    “Would Job worship you if he got nothing out of it?” (Job 1:9, Today’s English Version)
    Satan, the adversary implied that humans’ loyalty to God depends exclusively on ‘what they can get out of it.’ And he did this in front of the sons of God. He was issuing a challenge.

    Job, was someone special. He was a man blameless and upright, there being no one like him on the earth. He was the greatest of all the sons of the east.
    If Satan could turn Job away from serving God, he could do it to anyone.

    “Now it came to be the day when the sons of the [true] God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and even Satan proceeded to enter right among them.”
    Satan could have done this thing without making mention of it. But was that his purpose? It wasn't primarily Job he was attacking, but God. He was accusing Jehovah's creation of

    You base what you believe on Job's three false comfortors? (Job 2:9; 4:7, 8; 8:5, 6; 11:13-15; 42:7,8)
    Despite what his wife, Eliphaz, Bildad and Zophar said, he remained loyal. He didn't sin with his lips. He held his integrity.

    Jehovah said to Eliphaz:
    “My anger has grown hot against you and your two companions, for you men have not spoken concerning me what is truthful as has my servant Job. And now take for yourselves seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job, and you men must offer up a burnt sacrifice in your own behalf; and Job my servant will himself pray for you.” (Job 42:7, 8)

    THEY WERE NOT SPEAKING THE TRUTH. Jehovah says this. Yet, you take their words as the truth.
    Eliphaz even said that in God’s eyes Job was of no more value than a moth! (Job 4:18, 19; 22:2, 3) Please!

    Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar also sinned against Job personally by telling him that his problems were of his own making.

    Their baseless accusations and utter lack of empathy left Job embittered and depressed, causing him to cry out: “How long will you men keep irritating my soul and keep crushing me with words?” (Job 10:1; 19:2)

    Imagine the expressions of shame on the faces of these three men as they now had to present Job with an offering for THEIR sins!

    he wrongly assumed that God was the cause of his calamity. He even criticized God’s way of dealing with man. (Job 27:2; 30:20, 21) And he declared his own righteousness rather than God’s. (Job 32:2)
    THESE THINGS WERE WRONG.

    Notice the words:
    But Job refused to turn his back on the Creator, and he humbly accepted correction from God. “I talked, but I was not understanding,” he admitted. “I make a retraction, and I do repent in dust and ashes.”—Job 42:3, 6.

    When under trial we too may think, speak, or act in a way that is not fitting. (Compare Ecclesiastes 7:7.) Nevertheless, if our love for God is deep, we will not rebel against him or grow bitter because he permits us to experience hardships.

    Before Job was restored to a healthy state, Jehovah required that he pray in behalf of those who transgressed against him. What a fine example for us! Jehovah requires that we forgive those who sin against us before our own sins can be forgiven. (Matthew 6:12; Ephesians 4:32)

    Sammo, THE THINGS THAT THE ADVERSARY (WHO I WILL CALL SATAN) DID ARE THINGS THAT NO HUMAN CAN DO? CAN YOU CAUSE A WIND STORM?

    Anyway, back to the real issue at hand–human integrity.

    In other words, Satan accused God of bribing Job. This defiant spirit creature claimed that if Job was stripped of his wealth and his health, he would curse Jehovah. By extension, Satan was asserting that no human would love and be loyal to God in the face of suffering. That challenge had global and enduring impact. The issues that Satan raised had to be settled. Thus, God gave Satan freedom to act against Job, and Satan brought those various forms of suffering on the man.

    Understandably, Job did not and could not know of the universal issue that was raised in the heavens. And Satan arranged things so that it appeared as if God were causing all of Job’s calamities. For example, when lightning struck Job’s flocks of sheep, the surviving attendant concluded that it was “the very fire of God.” Although Job did not know why these things were happening, he would not curse or reject Jehovah God.—Job 1:16, 19, 21.

    But we do know why those things happened. And we know why bad things happen today. When under trial, let no one say he is being tried by God. With evil things, God does not try people. This is what the Bible says. This is what the book of Job bears out.

    Will humans serve Jehovah out of love, despite troubles? Job helped to answer that. Only true love for God could have moved a person to remain faithful to Jehovah, which is what Job did.

    david.

    #13932
     NickHassan 
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    Good post thank you david.

    #13948
     Sammo 
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    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 21 2006,21:54)
    Hi sammo,
    So if you state, as your basis of faith in these matters, that

    Revelation is only symbolism


    Hi Nick

    This deserves to be taken to task. Please read through Revelation 12:

    Quote
    1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
    2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
    3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
    4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
    5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
    6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
    7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
    8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
    9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
    10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
    11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
    12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
    13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
    14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
    15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
    16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
    17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


    Do you believe that literally:

    • A woman was clothed with the sun, with twelve stars on her head?
    • 1/3 of the stars of heaven have crashed into earth?
    • This woman grew two eagle-wings to escape from the serpent?
    • The woman was saved by being sucked up into the ground?

    OK, let's move on. In that case, is there literally an old serpent called Satan that deceives the whole world?

    #13950
     Sammo 
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    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 21 2006,23:24)
    Hi sammo,
    Now that you have had time to consider the matter according to the precious Word of God, who is “the god of this world?”


    Hi Nick

    Whatever this is, it clearly doesn't exist as a literal being – there are plenty of verses that say that God is God alone, and it's just plain silly to think that the 'Devil' is in control of the world, and not God.

    It would make sense if “the god of this world” referred to people's inclination to follow their own path – ie if someone only believes and does what they want to, then their god is really themself.

    For instance, the end of 2 Cor 3 is talking about people who refused to accept that Jesus fulfilled the Law. The language used here is the same as at the start of chapter 4 – both talk about a “veil” preventing people from accepting Jesus. At the end of chapter 3, the veil was the “hardening of their minds” (nothing to do with Satan). It would make sense if that was the same as the 'god of the world' in chapter 4 – stubbornly listening to oneself, and not to God.

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 21 2006,23:24)
    If Jesus spoke of Satan would you believe Satan existed?


    Jesus can use the word 'Satan' without implying that there's an immortal fallen angel that goes around tempting the world.

    #13954
     Sammo 
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    Quote (david @ May 22 2006,00:23)
    Hi Sammo. I've read your link about Job.


    Thanks.

    Quote (david @ May 22 2006,00:23)
    first, back to this quote of yours:

    Quote
    Evil (as in bad things that happen) comes from God. Sin comes from within our own heart.

    Regardless of what the next verse says, you say that evil or the bad things that happen comes from God.

    Scripture says:
    JAMES 1:13
    “When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For WITH EVIL THINGS GOD cannot be tried NOR DOES HE HIMSELF TRY ANYONE.”

    This statement is diametrically opposed to the idea that God causes evil.
    Why would a God of love Cause bad things to happen anyway?


    There are a few verses I'd like you to consider – the rest of this post is going to be a direct quote of an earlier post of mine (that t8 still refuses to respond to – he keeps saying that he never sees it).

    —————————–

    Hi everyone

    Here are two of t8's longstanding claims…

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 22 2004,18:14)
    Satan the person is the inspiration behind all evil and lies


    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 23 2004,18:16)
    From Satan comes adversity.


    …although really I've talked about them more to Nick. Since Nick completely ignored every point I raised on the issue, I'm going to collate my views and post them here. Some of this is going to be a straight cut and paste of otherwise ignored material.

    The question is: is Satan the cause of all evil, suffering and adversity, or is God?

    Firstly there's a distinction to be made between evil, as in bad things that happen in the world, and sin, as in disobedience to God.

    I believe that God is in charge of events in the world, and that includes the bad things as well.

    Isaiah 45

    Quote
    7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


    It makes no difference if you want to change “evil” here to “woe” (NASB) – it's not like woe is a happy thing, and the point in question is whether or not the devil is responsible for all suffering in the world. Clearly Isaiah 45:7 says that evil, or woe, or whatever you want to call it, comes from God.

    It's not a bad thing that sometimes God sends trying times our way – all the great characters of the Bible went through tough times and came out all the better for it, even Jesus (Hebrews 5:8).

    Joseph

    Joseph is a great example of God working through what seem to be terrible events. When his brothers sold him into Egypt, they really did mean evil, but God was in control all along to bring about a greater good, as we read in Genesis 45:

    Quote
    4 And Joseph said unto his brethren, Come near to me, I pray you. And they came near. And he said, I am Joseph your brother, whom ye sold into Egypt.
    5 Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life.
    6 For these two years hath the famine been in the land: and yet there are five years, in the which there shall neither be earing nor harvest.
    7 And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance.
    8 So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.


    Joseph suffered immensely by being sold into Egypt, almost beyond our comprehension. Yet God brought all that suffering to pass out of love, because “all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose” (Romans 8:28), and “whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth” (Hebrews 12:6). Joseph came out a better man, and was the means God used to save his entire nation.

    Hannah

    We're told of Hannah in 1 Samuel 1:

    Quote
    5 But unto Hannah he gave a worthy portion; for he loved Hannah: but the LORD had shut up her womb.
    6 And her adversary also provoked her sore, for to make her fret, because the LORD had shut up her womb.


    Who had shut up Hannah's womb? Who had caused Hannah's suffering? Did it all work out for good in the end? Is Satan the person behind all evil?

    Job

    When Job loses his family and possessions, he says in Job 1:

    Quote
    21 Naked came I out of my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.


    Job attributes his suffering to God.

    In the next chapter he says:

    Quote
    10 Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.


    Job attributes the evil in his life to the hand of God.

    Then right at the end of the book – who had brought evil upon Job?

    Quote
    11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.


    A more direct statement about the cause of Job's suffering would be impossible to make.

    Amos 3

    Quote
    6 Shal
    l a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?


    If there is evil in a city, hath not the LORD done it? Kind of speaks for itself, really.

    2 Chronicles 15

    t8 says that all adversity comes from Satan. This is what 2 Chronicles 15 says:

    Quote
    6 And nation was destroyed of nation, and city of city: for God did vex them with all adversity.


    God, not Satan, is responsible for adversity here.

    Daniel 4

    Quote
    17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.


    God, not Satan is in control of the world and its affairs. When a wicked king/president/ruler reigns, it's God at work – not Satan. God often works through wicked men to bring about his purpose, for instance:

    • Pharaoh's hard-heartedness resulted in the dramatic deliverence of Israel,
    • Nebuchadnezzar was used to judge Judah,
    • Hitler resulted in the return of the Jews to Israel etc.

    We can be sure that George Bush, Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Laden, the Pope and Vladimir Putin etc. are all being used to shape the events of the world to God's plan.

    Therefore, if God is in control, then the terrible things that these people do and have done is caused by God, and not by Satan. Think about that. The entire world has been to war twice in just the last 100 years to bring about the return of the Jews to Israel. God's not the one who pulls the trigger – but rest assured that everything is under his omnipotent control. You don't believe that, if you believe in Satan.

    Assyria

    This is an extract from Isaiah 10:

    Quote
    5 ¶ O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
    6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
    7 Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.
    8 For he saith, Are not my princes altogether kings?
    9 Is not Calno as Carchemish? is not Hamath as Arpad? is not Samaria as Damascus?
    10 As my hand hath found the kingdoms of the idols, and whose graven images did excel them of Jerusalem and of Samaria;
    11 Shall I not, as I have done unto Samaria and her idols, so do to Jerusalem and her idols?
    12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord hath performed his whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks.


    Assyria was used to judge Jerusalem. However, Carchemish, Arpad and Samaria all got destroyed as well. Who caused all this suffering? Satan?

    This is another perfect example of how God can use the wicked intentions of men to carry out his purpose.

    Hebrews 12

    So what about suffering in our lives? God is in control of this too, for our own good:

    Quote
    5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
    6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
    7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
    8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye illegitimate, and not sons.
    9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
    10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
    11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.


    God is in control of suffering in our lives too – this is the only way that our characters can be developed, and it all works out for good in the end. Satan simply has nothing to do with it.

    Conclusion

    Satan does not cause suffering in the world.

    I've just listed 9 examples where suffering is clearly and unambiguously attributed to God.

    I'm still waiting for a single quote that attributes suffering to Satan. Please, fill me in.

    Just where is Satan in all of this? He simply doesn't even enter the equation. When we suffer in our lives, it has absolutely nothing at all to do with an evil being seeking our destruction – in fact the opposite couldn't be more true. Suffering is all about a righteous being seeking our salvation. God is in complete control of our lives, moulding us like a potter (eg Jeremiah 18), both for our own good, and for his glory.

    And thank God that he is in control, because we can be sure that “all things work together for good” – even the bad things! :)

    t8, you made these statements:

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 22 2004,18:14)
    Satan the person is the inspiration behind all evil and lies


    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 23 2004,18:16)
    From Satan comes adversity.


    Do you stand by them? If you do, then please respond to this post.

    Please don't just gloss over my points, but deal with each of the nine examples and show me how Satan, and not God, was responsible for the evil and suffering in each case.

    Of course, anyone else's comments are welcome too.

    Cheers,
    Sam

    #13956
     Sammo 
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    Quote (david @ May 22 2006,00:23)

    Quote
    Evil (as in bad things that happen) comes from God. Sin comes from within our own heart.

    Regardless of what the next verse says, you say that evil or the bad things that happen comes from God.

    Scripture says:
    JAMES 1:13
    “When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For WITH EVIL THINGS GOD cannot be tried NOR DOES HE HIMSELF TRY ANYONE.”

    This statement is diametrically opposed to the idea that God causes evil.
    Why would a God of love Cause bad things to happen anyway?


    Hi David

    Also, specifically in relation to James 1:13, note that the same word for “try” in James 1:13 is used in Hebrews 11:17 – look it up:

    “By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son”

    Look back in Genesis and you'll find that it was God that told Abraham to offer Isaac, not an immortal fallen angel. How would you like to reconcile that?

    My answer is this: God can (and does) place us in situations that are difficult so that we can test our faith, and grow in character. There are heaps and heaps and heaps of examples of this in the Bible – look at my last post, for instance. But any temptation that arises is always because of our own lust; James is saying that even though God may place us in awkward situations, he will never prompt us to sin. That's always our fault – which is exactly what James 1:14 goes on to say:

    “But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.”

    The devil is extremely conspicuous in its abscence here.

    #13957
     NickHassan 
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    Quote (Sammo @ May 22 2006,06:04)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 21 2006,21:54)
    Hi sammo,
    So if you state, as your basis of faith in these matters, that

    Revelation is only symbolism


    Hi Nick

    This deserves to be taken to task. Please read through Revelation 12:

    Quote
    1  And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
    2  And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
    3  And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
    4  And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
    5  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
    6  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
    7  And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
    8  And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
    9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
    10  And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
    11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
    12  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
    13  And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
    14  And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
    15  And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
    16  And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
    17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


    Do you believe that literally:

    • A woman was clothed with the sun, with twelve stars on her head?
    • 1/3 of the stars of heaven have crashed into earth?
    • This woman grew two eagle-wings to escape from the serpent?
    • The woman was saved by being sucked up into the ground?

    OK, let's move on. In that case, is there literally an old serpent called Satan that deceives the whole world?


    Hi sammo,
    That Heavenly sign may have been shown in the night skies over Israel about 1997. Stars are for signs as shown in Gen 1.14.

    At that time the Moon appeared to go through the virgo constellation while the corona bernices was about her “head” and the constellation “serpens” was also near.[source the Watchman site of Greg Killian.]

    Of corse the woman also represents Israel and the twelve stars the twelve tribes, while the child is Jesus born from Israel.

    Satan and his angels[1/3] were thrown from heaven. You will also know from Rev 1.20 that stars represent angels;

    “As for the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in my right hand, and the seven golden lampstands; the seven stars are the ANGELS of the seven churches and the seven lampstands are the seven churches”

    v 5 -6 enlarges on the Son of God and the rapture and the God's protection of Isreal during half the sevn year tribulation[1260days]

    v 7-10
    enlarges on v 3 showing that Satan is the dragon and linking him with the serpent of Genesis and the devil. Again the angels being thrown to earth with him are shown..

    .Shall I continue?..

    #13959
     Sammo 
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    Nick,

    You can be extremely difficult to talk to sometimes. In one post you say that Revelation should be taken literally, but then in the very next breath you're explaining at length the symbolism in Revelation 12.

    FWIW, I'd try and point out the gaps in your last post, but you do an embarrasingly good job of that yourself.

    Honestly, what kind of hope do I have against reasoning like that?

    #13964
     david 
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    Quote

    Whatever this is, it clearly doesn't exist as a literal being – there are plenty of verses that say that God is God alone, and it's just plain silly to think that the 'Devil' is in control of the world, and not God.

    Is it silly? Jesus didn't think so. Who is in “control of the world?” You believe it's God? You believe God is responsible for the evil in the world? You believe God causes bad things? NO. Jesus taught something else.

    Clearly, in these verses, Jesus is not talking about his Father:

    JOHN 12:31
    “Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.”

    JOHN 14:30
    “I shall not speak much with YOU anymore, for the ruler of the world is coming. And he has no hold on me,”

    JOHN 16:11
    “then concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.”

    You are not allowed to tell me that the “ruler of this world” who has been judged and will be cast out and who has no hold on Jesus–is his Father, Jehovah.

    Quote
    Isaiah 45

    Quote
    7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

    It makes no difference if you want to change “evil” here to “woe” (NASB) – it's not like woe is a happy thing, and the point in question is whether or not the devil is responsible for all suffering in the world. Clearly Isaiah 45:7 says that evil, or woe, or whatever you want to call it, comes from God.

    Rightly, Jehovah brought evil or calamity upon Adam for his disobedience. Hence, in the Scriptures, Jehovah is referred to as the Creator of evil or calamity. (Isa 45:7; compare KJ.) His enforcing of the penalty for sin, namely, death, has proved to be an evil, or a calamity, for mankind. So, then, evil is not always synonymous with wrongdoing. Examples of evils or calamities created by Jehovah are the Flood of Noah’s day and the Ten Plagues visited upon Egypt. But these evils were not wrongs. Rather, the rightful administration of justice against wrongdoers was involved in both cases. However, at times Jehovah, in his mercy, has refrained from bringing the intended calamity or evil in execution of his righteous judgment because of the repentance on the part of those concerned. (Jon 3:10) Additionally, in having a warning given, Jehovah has undeservedly provided opportunities for the practicers of bad to change their course and thus to keep living.—Eze 33:11.

    JAMES 1:13
    “When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For WITH EVIL THINGS GOD cannot be tried NOR DOES HE HIMSELF TRY ANYONE.”

    When two scriptures, such as this one and Is 45:7 seem to contradict, our understanding of one of them must be wrong. Yes, there is Isaiah 45:7.
    Just as he creates the light of day and the darkness of night, so he will make peace for Israel and calamity for Babylon.
    Here are some more scriptures that may shed light:

    JEREMIAH 18:7
    “At any moment that I may speak against a nation and against a kingdom to uproot [it] and to pull [it] down and to destroy [it],”
    AMOS 3:6
    “If a horn is blown in a city, do not also the people themselves tremble? If a calamity occurs in the city, is it not also Jehovah who has acted?”

    Quote
    When Job loses his family and possessions, he says in Job 1:

    Quote
    21 Naked came I out of my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

    Job attributes his suffering to God.


    And he does so wrongly. Jehovah corrects him. See my post on Job above.

    Quote
    Then right at the end of the book – who had brought evil upon Job?

    Quote
    11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.

    A more direct statement about the cause of Job's suffering would be impossible to make.

    For a certainty, Jehovah allowed the adversary, Satan, to cause Job's suffering. The adversary asked, and Jehovah allowed it. Men are usually not tested in such ways. But this was a special case. the Adversary believed that if he could turn Job, a man blamelesss and upright away from serving God, he could do it to anyone, and that would prove no human really serves God for the right reasons. Take away all the things he's been blessed with, thought the adversary, and he will curse God. Satan, the adversary asked and Jehovah allowed it. In this sense, God was somewhat responsible and could be said to have “brought” it on, by allowing it.
    This is the only interpretation that matches up with James 1:13 and the beginning of Job.

    Again, to my previous post on Job, I'd like to add Job's words:
    JOB 42:3
    “‘Who is this that is obscuring counsel without knowledge?’ Therefore I talked, but I was not understanding Things too wonderful for me, which I do not know.”
    JOB 42:6
    “That is why I make a retraction, And I do repent in dust and ashes.””

    JOB MADED A RETRACTIONS. HE WAS “NOT UNDERSTANDING.” He may at FIRST have incorrectly believed God was behind this. HE WAS WRONG. God allowed it. The adversary brought the issue up before the assembly of the son's of God, and the issue was raised. It was a challenge made against God's human creation and against God himself. Jehovah knew how it would go. He allowed the other son's of God to see that the adversary was wrong. And he recorded it, so that we may not wrongly believe that God is responsible for bad things that happen to us. Yes, God has and will bring evil upon human governments and the wicked. He will bring calamity upon them. But when we are under trial, should we believe that God is behind it? No.

    JAMES 1:13
    “When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone.”

    LUKE 13:4
    “Or those eighteen upon whom the tower in Si·lo´am fell, thereby killing them, do YOU imagine that they were proved greater debtors than all other men inhabiting Jerusalem?”

    ECCL 9:11
    “time and unforeseen occurance befall [us] all.”

    Bad things happen. In large part, it is due to humans not following Jehovah's councel. (Deut 32:5; Eccl 7:29)

    Quote
    2 Chronicles 15

    t8 says that all adversity comes from Satan. This is what 2 Chronicles 15 says:

    Quote
    6 And nation was destroyed of nation, and city of city: for God did vex them with all adversity.

    God, not Satan, is responsible for adversity here.

    If God destroys a nation, then that nation deserved it. Jehovah is the judge of all the earth. He decides who has the right to life
    . If he decides you or I are not fit to live and so in the end, we are destroyed, is God doing something evil? By destroying the wicked, God is actually acting justly and in a loving manner towards the righteous.
    But saying that all the evil that happens in a persons life is because of God is different.

    Quote
    God, not Satan is in control of the world and its affairs.


    Of course God is the ultimate ruler of everything. But an issue was raised in the garden of Eden–Will any humans remain loyal to God and serve him, and should Jehovah have the right to rule (which is better–man's rule or Gods?) So God is ALLOWING Satan to prove his claim. Hence the world is in the mess it is. If God were controling everything, the world would be a much less bloody, much nicer place. And, we have those 3 or so scriptures that say that the “ruler of the world” or “the ruler of this world” will be cast out, will be judged and has no hold on Jesus–hence, not God Almighty.

    Quote
    Therefore, if God is in control, then the terrible things that these people do and have done is caused by God, and not by Satan. Think about that.


    I have thought about it. I've thought about all the wickedness and suffering and misery in the world, and factored in those scriptures about the ruler of the world and the fact that Christians are to be no part of the world (because Satan is it's ruler) and decided that you are wrong.

    God does not cause terrible things to happen. He did not make your son die. He did not want another angel in heaven. He didn't cause the bus to hit your dog. “time and unforseen occurance” found your way to the dog.
    Yes, He has and will act in ways that bring calamity to the wicked. He is justified in this.

    Quote
    I'm still waiting for a single quote that attributes suffering to Satan. Please, fill me in.


    The entire book of Job is all about suffering. It attributes Job's suffering to the adversary. Was it a human who brought about the wind and other calamities?

    Quote
    ust where is Satan in all of this? He simply doesn't even enter the equation. When we suffer in our lives, it has absolutely nothing at all to do with an evil being seeking our destruction – in fact the opposite couldn't be more true. Suffering is all about a righteous being seeking our salvation. God is in complete control of our lives, moulding us like a potter (eg Jeremiah 18), both for our own good, and for his glory.

    Sammo, I don't believe that Satan is going around bringing evil upon individuals. I do believe he has great power and is the “rule of the world” and is “misleading the entire inhabited earth,” and that “the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.”
    ****

    Quote
    Hi David

    Also, specifically in relation to James 1:13, note that the same word for “try” in James 1:13 is used in Hebrews 11:17 – look it up:

    “By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son”

    Look back in Genesis and you'll find that it was God that told Abraham to offer Isaac, not an immortal fallen angel. How would you like to reconcile that?


    I think we should have looked at the word “evil” a while ago:

    deeply immoral and malevolent, extreme wickedness and depravity, something harmful or undesirable.

    The question is: Was it with an evil thing that Abraham was tried? I suppose it was an undesriable thing. The thing is–it is God who decides what is right and wrong, good and bad. We are in no position to say whether something He does is good or evil. If Jehovah does something, it is not “deeply immoral,” or “wicked” or “depraved.” If Jehovah does it, he is completely justified, knows the outcome, and can't be questioned.

    #13970
     Sammo 
    Member
    • Topics started 1
    • Total replies 234

    Quote (david @ May 22 2006,08:26)

    Quote
    Hi David

    Also, specifically in relation to James 1:13, note that the same word for “try” in James 1:13 is used in Hebrews 11:17 – look it up:

    “By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son”

    Look back in Genesis and you'll find that it was God that told Abraham to offer Isaac, not an immortal fallen angel. How would you like to reconcile that?


    I think we should have looked at the word “evil” a while ago:

    deeply immoral and malevolent, extreme wickedness and depravity, something harmful or undesirable.

    The question is: Was it with an evil thing that Abraham was tried? I suppose it was an undesriable thing. The thing is–it is God who decides what is right and wrong, good and bad. We are in no position to say whether something He does is good or evil. If Jehovah does something, it is not “deeply immoral,” or “wicked” or “depraved.” If Jehovah does it, he is completely justified, knows the outcome, and can't be questioned.


    Hi David

    That misses the point. Is there, or is there not, a sense in which God “tries” people? Absolutely – Heb 11:17 is concrete proof of that. All James is saying is that God doesn't prompt people to be tempted (v14).

    I'll respond to the rest of your post, and to your post about Job, later on.

    #13971
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 67,739

    Quote (Sammo @ May 22 2006,07:05)
    Nick,

    You can be extremely difficult to talk to sometimes. In one post you say that Revelation should be taken literally, but then in the very next breath you're explaining at length the symbolism in Revelation 12.

    FWIW, I'd try and point out the gaps in your last post, but you do an embarrasingly good job of that yourself.

    Honestly, what kind of hope do I have against reasoning like that?


    Sammo,
    The reason I went through that chapter it was because you offered it as an example of Revelation as a book of symbolism.

    I do not claim to understand most of Revelation but I will never stop studying it and offer my thoughts so that others can kick them about and we all will hopefully learn.

    It was also to show that one line may be symbolic and the next literal and we cannot afford to fall into the trap of missing the simple truths among the complex.

    Every verse will have to be examined, interrogated and even tortured to make them all speak to us, and they will, God willing, if we work together and keep at it.

    I do not mind being the fool or the fall guy for the sake of helping in this noble task.

    #13983
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 67,739

    Quote (Sammo @ May 22 2006,06:04)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 21 2006,21:54)
    Hi sammo,
    So if you state, as your basis of faith in these matters, that

    Revelation is only symbolism


    Hi Nick

    This deserves to be taken to task. Please read through Revelation 12:

    Quote
    1  And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
    2  And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
    3  And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
    4  And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
    5  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
    6  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
    7  And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
    8  And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
    9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
    10  And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
    11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
    12  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
    13  And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
    14  And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
    15  And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
    16  And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
    17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


    Do you believe that literally:

    • A woman was clothed with the sun, with twelve stars on her head?
    • 1/3 of the stars of heaven have crashed into earth?
    • This woman grew two eagle-wings to escape from the serpent?
    • The woman was saved by being sucked up into the ground?

    OK, let's move on. In that case, is there literally an old serpent called Satan that deceives the whole world?


    Hi sammo,
    I have made an effort with Rev 12.
    Would you like to give us a verse by verse rundown also based on what you DO BELIEVE rather than what you cannot accept, as we need your insights too?

    #13990
     Is 1:18 
    Member
    • Topics started 14
    • Total replies 3,242

    Hi Sammo, hope life is good for you atm.
    I think NH has actually raised a valid point in pointing out that, although Revelation is a coded book (400 verses and 800 allusions to the OT I have been led to believe!), some symbols are actually explained in the book itself. And the star/angels idiom is one of those (Rev 1:20, 9:1). I think the fact Yahshua actually assigns this associated meaning in Revelation 1:20, and the fact that a star is personified in Rev 9:1 is weighty evidence that the stars in Re 12:4 should be taken to mean literal angels. And Job 38:7, Daniel 8:10 and Isaiah 14:12 adds credence to this explanation IMHO. Although these passages have allegories in them too!

    :D

    But just because a passage is symbolic (as Rev 12:1-4 manifestly is) doesn't mean the individual symbols are undecipherable. Right? I think it's okay to be disagree with someones interpretation, as long as you can supply an equally or more plausable explanation yourself. What do you think the stars in Rev 12:4 represent?

    In Rev 12:9 Satan is said to decieve the whole world and as a consequence are thrown down to earth with his angels. So the language in Rev 12 appears to switch from figurative 'stars'  to literal 'angels'. And this of course raises the question; if Satan isn't a real pesonage why are “angels” being thrown down to earth with “him”? This makes no sense unless you attribute personhood to both entities.

    Blessings friend.

    #13991
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 67,739

    Hi,
    Thank you Is 1.18. As you say it is shown that there are evil angels who are thrown to earth. So angels can sin. So what of satan himself?

    Are these evil angels leaderless or is Satan not shown to be a being who was in heaven, was thrown to earth and is the prince of darkness and leader of the angels who battled the good angels in heaven?

    I think Revelation is largely a series of repeated versions of the same heavenly and worldly time scenario but written from different points of view, using different idioms, relating to different circumstances and locations.

    Comparing chapter with chapter divulges some more information.That is why looking at Rev 11 as 2 men in Jerusalem defies the symbolism expressed elsewhere and is trite.

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